PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Zer0oo · September 2018

Oh can we also get working ground aoes in lag? This is class independent but also affect sorc. Liquid lightning(e.g trials) to cast in lag is really bad. It tends to double cast. It is also bad for warden tree ulit but in general all ground skill that need targeting are really bad.

Zer0oo · September 2018

Can we get a smart counter to wings? Maybe only reflect when we are 15+m away? It reflects almost every single skill range chars are using including the basic attacks of the only weapon we have: Destro

Destary · September 2018

I love players who say "Magsorc have a lot of damage"

I play with Balorg + Asylum + Shackle with 1.6k regen magicka and i do less damage than a lot of stamina classes (like warden for exemple, who have a big tankyness in heavy and big damages) and less than magblade. And what about sustain with this build ? Hard, 19k shields and poor recovery, i can kite a bit but isn't the best. I do that for try to fight the meta tanky, and that don't really work. So "Magsorc have big/biggest damage !" --> NO.

Sebar80 · September 2018

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Continuing my updated,

Did a number of duels as magsorc and against mag sorc result no wins as sorc no losses against the sorc, great balancing there. To be able to win as magsorc i would have to fight another one or a potato man.

BGS just doesn't work in queue for over an hour. Cyro is empty. Very few people in the new zone to duel.

Shield, as long it is possible to interrupt when casting, is just garbage and waste of the slot. Even while having cc immunity I am getting so much damage while casting I am near dead or dead anyway. Off the bar for good.

The only close to viable set up seems to be back bar resto, with healing ward and rapid regen, surge for healing. Even than the fight last longer but the result is easy to predict, all other classes just out sustain mag sorc while I am not getting close to execute range. In this scenario using rune prison is just magicka sink, no one is getting cc'ed, they would have to be dumb.

In this proposal by ZOS, sorcs are going to be usable only in zergs, spamming frags/execute from behind other players and hoping for the luck rune prison on unexpecting enemy. Great vision by combat team.

To improve sustain one could use exchange but between shields cast time and exchange cast time sorc is dead before second one is completed. Someone did try it against me in stam blade, hilarious to see.

Too tired to evaluate stam sorc again.

I am not going back on to PTS until next week. For now my final feedback for PTS1 is 2 subs cancelled. This might by the only language you understand.

LadyNalcarya · September 2018

Destary wrote: »

I love players who say "Magsorc have a lot of damage"

I play with Balorg + Asylum + Shackle with 1.6k regen magicka and i do less damage than a lot of stamina classes (like warden for exemple, who have a big tankyness in heavy and big damages) and less than magblade. And what about sustain with this build ? Hard, 19k shields and poor recovery, i can kite a bit but isn't the best. I do that for try to fight the meta tanky, and that don't really work. So "Magsorc have big/biggest damage !" --> NO.

True, magsorcs actually have lower dps potential than the other magicka classes, even when played by an extremely skilled player, like FearTurbo. They also have the worst sustain even in pve, where they get ele drain and orbs, and in pvp they cannot play without sustain sets. It's not even the best vMA class these days, even with instant cast shields.

People just see sorc execute on their death recap and assume too much.

Destary · September 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Destary wrote: »

I love players who say "Magsorc have a lot of damage"

I play with Balorg + Asylum + Shackle with 1.6k regen magicka and i do less damage than a lot of stamina classes (like warden for exemple, who have a big tankyness in heavy and big damages) and less than magblade. And what about sustain with this build ? Hard, 19k shields and poor recovery, i can kite a bit but isn't the best. I do that for try to fight the meta tanky, and that don't really work. So "Magsorc have big/biggest damage !" --> NO.

True, magsorcs actually have lower dps potential than the other magicka classes, even when played by an extremely skilled player, like FearTurbo. They also have the worst sustain even in pve, where they get ele drain and orbs, and in pvp they cannot play without sustain sets. It's not even the best vMA class these days, even with instant cast shields.

People just see sorc execute on their death recap and assume too much.

It's exactly that ^^ Players they cry about sorc cause they see the finisher in recap, or cause they tryhards a skilled magsorc with a full tank group

After that they trash talk about shield of sorc and sorc in general cause "that tank a lot" but no, they are just ultra tanky in big group, and they don't have damage

OrdoHermetica · September 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Add 1 second cast to light armor's shield but leave sorc's ward like it was before.
Sorcs will still have their 911 button in pve but shield stacking will be harder.

I would flip that. Leave the non-class-specific shield instant, as every class has need of an instant-cast "911" shield (and some classes, like magplars, rely on the LA shield), and then give sorcs a more powerful cast-time shield instead. That way all classes have an emergency shield, and sorcs have the option of taking the time to add extra shields if needed.

I mean, if they're dead-set on a cast time, anyway. I know I won't run a sorc shield with a cast time if I ever finish getting my magsorc set up, but I guess some people might.

You realize that every other class has access to other means of defense while sorcs are strictly forced to use shields? Makes no sense to punish them for using their own skills over some open line's skill. Take a look at stamsorcs if you want to know how a classless "class" looks like.

DKs, Temps, Wardens, NBs all have some easy to use hots/ instant heals. Some even have class shields or cloak. Sorcs instead are bound to use a tiny RNG heal with a cooldown that is useless when not in offense, a 2-slot bad AI pet (which you can't keep alive without your own instant class shield) or an 1.4s cast time ordinary heal (4k in pvp without defile). And to top all of that, LA shield also returns resources while sorc's shield don't.

HoTs/insta-heals don't help much if you weren't able to survive the damage in the first place. And one of the morphs of the LA ability returns resources, yes... the other does not.

Regardless, there's still really no reason to suggest adding the cast time to the LA version over the sorc version. Sorcs can and do slot both. I agree that sorcs are severely lacking in their HoTs/burst heals, but putting a cast time on LA shields but not the sorc shield doesn't change that in the slightest. It's a different issue entirely. All it really does is screw other magicka classes that rely on the LA shield.

felipenepub17_ESO · September 2018

Please, Zenimax. Do not kill the viability of stamsorcs on PVP. Stamsorcs needs the overload bar and dark deal in order to be competitive with the others stam classes, since we do not have any stamina dps skill spammable.

Stamsorcs can´t afford to slot bound armaments on both bars to get the Stamina Regen passive since we lost the utility of having the overload bar for buffs and you are nerfing dark deal. That is a huge nerf who was not needed.

Magicka Sorcs were the problem, not StamSorcs.

LadyNalcarya · September 2018

felipenepub17_ESO wrote: »

Please, Zenimax. Do not kill the viability of stamsorcs on PVP. Stamsorcs needs the overload bar and dark deal in order to be competitive with the others stam classes, since we do not have any stamina dps skill spammable.

Stamsorcs can´t afford to slot bound armaments on both bars to get the Stamina Regen passive since we lost the utility of having the overload bar for buffs and you are nerfing dark deal. That is a huge nerf who was not needed.

Magicka Sorcs were the problem, not StamSorcs.

Magicka sorcs werent a problem either. Unless you're wearing non-set white armor and die from one force pulse or something.
Well, rune prison animation was kinda buggy a patch or two ago (when you couldnt break free at full stamina), but it was nerfed already.
If they wanted to nerf shieldstacking they could specifically adress it, instead of killing the class in both pve and pvp.

tanabata · September 2018

Kinda really like the overload changes, it's one of the things that make class more unique and fun (which is always welcomed) and it opens opportunity for sustain (with energy morph) without heavy attacks and without loosing too much damage. It feels really good right now, without global cooldown. But third bar was kinda compensating mechanism for double-barring so many skills (pets, boung aegis/armaments). So maybe it's time to make pets toggle, like mend wounds, warden's netch and new overload? Pets are not so strong to sacrifice additional skill slot. And after mend wounds and wardens we know, that it is technically possible=). It would add more fun and utility.

Also stamsorc is always a huge pain point. Stamsorc have literally only one active stamina skill (sure, surge is great, armaments too), but what this class have to offer for group in pvp and pve? Streak? On stam toon it's not so reliable as a enemy control instrument (hell, even on magicka sorc).

Cast-time skills. Only if it felt good to use, like channeled abilities, or cast-time had more smooth, better and fun animation, then maybe. But now, for example, dark deal feels like you pressing the button, see the animation of used skill(or not see, if you on vivec

) and next 2-3 seconds you just lagging. It's bad. Especially if player have problems with connection/optimisation. Same about shields on PTS, it feels really bad and not like one second. I understand, that we should sacrifice something for such a strong buffs (proactive health from shield or health and primary resource restore), but we should not sacrifice our game expirience for that.

@ZOS_RobGarrett thanks for your attention and bravery to answer in this thread!

Destary · September 2018

I hear a lot of players said "Magsorc players need to choose between survivability and damage" but.... WHAT ? All classes have both so why magsorc need to do the choice and all other classes can have both ?

This community make me sick, when that isn't for you, you want to nerf and when it's for you, you want more damage and more survivability.

So no, magsorc like all other classes don't need to choice between this both essential.

JKith · September 2018

I main a PVE MagSorc and I’m quite sad that it’s so weak in DPS. My MagBlade does more DPS with purple and suboptimal gear with missing passives than my fully leveled, fully golded, optimal MagSorc

Things I like:
Fix of Crystal Frags 0.2sec bug (FINALLY!!!)

Things that I don’t like:
Reduced cost of Daedric Prey only? (if you’re going to reduce cost, do it to Haunting curse too or another used skill like LL.)
1 sec cast time on shields (duh, but this is more game wide issue though not just sorcs)

Things I would like to see be changed:
Increase damage to 30% extra from 10% of instacast or increase proc chance from 35% to 50% for Crystal Frags
Change Daedric Protection passive to include 5% max magicka increase instead of health regen (and maybe change the name to Daedric Reserves or something like that)
Increase damage of Mage’s Wrath Explosion - We lose 5% from nightblade execute starting at 25% already.....

Apherius · September 2018

JKith wrote: »

I main a PVE MagSorc and I’m quite sad that it’s so weak in DPS. My MagBlade does more DPS with purple and suboptimal gear with missing passives than my fully leveled, fully golded, optimal MagSorc

Things I like:
Fix of Crystal Frags 0.2sec bug (FINALLY!!!)
Dark Exchange is Instacast and restores over 20 sec (might actually include it in rotation now and it’ll help out lacking sustain)

Things that I don’t like:
Reduced cost of Daedric Prey and Unstable Familiar (if you’re going to reduce cost, do it to Haunting curse too or another used skill like LL. Pet sorcs don’t have sustain issues like non-pet sorcs but reducing the cost of this skill in particular doesn’t really do much)
1 sec cast time on shields (duh, but this is more game wide issue though not just sorcs)

Things I would like to see be changed:
Increase damage to 30% extra from 10% of instacast or increase proc chance from 35% to 50% for Crystal Frags
Change Daedric Protection passive to include 5% max magicka increase instead of health regen (and maybe change the name to Daedric Reserves or something like that)
Increase damage of Mage’s Wrath Explosion (if you need to balance this make it effective from 20% lower instead of 25%)

Dark exchange is still 1,2 sec cast.

Pet sorc don't have sustain issues ? You must be talking about full dots sorc builds with 1 HA per rotation.

Mage's wrath explosion happend at 20%, never heard about 25%.

Destary · September 2018

Just a question, ZoS look and give all we said to devs ? Or it's just debate without impact ? I'm not sure they listen us, they prefer to listen pugs proctards in zerg that cry...

Sry if i injured one of you

forgotten_secret · September 2018

one thought I'd like to add to the shield discussion, since I've heard the suggestion to make shields part of minor/major buff system quite often:
I think this is actually unreasonable because minor/major buffs/debuffs usually don't change their values, but a shield's strength decreases when it's hit. if you have f.e. minor protection, it's "-8% damage taken" from the 1st to the last second it's active, regardles of what hits you or doesn't hit you.
with a shield you could probably do a "minor shielded" buff that absorbs x damage from every attack that hits you, but that's just like protection only with a flat value instead of a percentage based one, and depending on the value and the situation, that could make shields a whole lot stronger or weaker. not so sure that's what anyone wants, makes balancing even harder.
(to demonstrate: just imagine having 20k health and a 10k shield now - you're able to survive a 25k hit, but still take 15k damage. same if you take 25 hits each doing 1k damage. if instead of the 10k shield, you have 1k reduced incoming damage, you won't survive a 25k blow, but not one of those 1k hits will get through your "shield". wouldn't work as intended, right? and no reason to do it percentage based - we already have that with minor/major protection)

if it's just to prevent stacking, they could easily take another approach: if you cast a shield on yourself while one of your other shields is active, you simply don't get that 2nd shield. they can either say the resources of the 2nd shield are returned if it's not possible to get it, or you only get the additional stuff like if you cast harness over ward, you get the shield from ward and the magica returned from magic dmg from harness, but no additional shield strength from harness.

joaaocaampos · September 2018

oxygen_thief wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

@ZOS_RobGarrett The best way, the best solution.

Instead of increasing cast time to 1 second, the cost should be increased. Healing Ritual is an example: the ability had 1 sec cast time and now is instant cast, with increased cost.
Annulment costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 4590 Magicka. That is, an increase of 59%.

Conjured Ward costs have been increased to 5580 (+59%), 5890 (+68%) or 6210 (+77%) Magicka from 3510 Magicka. Respectively, the Empowered Ward cost would be 5160, 5440 or 5740.

Unfortunately, something needs to be done. Increased cost has worked before, may work again. No shield spam!

If you want increased cost, press "Agree".
If you want cast time, press "Insightful".

how would you sustain it in non cp? it's ridiculous

PvP players have to suffer anyway. Shields are broken in PvE, which is more important.

Do you prefer 1 sec cast time or increased cost? Unfortunately, ZeniMax is determined to change. What we can do is mobilize in favor of the increased cost.

Illuvatarr · September 2018

I am a noob here.

So Wrobel/Rob Garrett didn't work on the sorc at the beginning of the game?

Correct?

Do they have anyone still there who has been there since the beginning?

oxygen_thief · September 2018

joaaocaampos wrote: »

If you will not support me for increased cost, I give up and good luck to you! 1 second cast time then! That's what you want![/b]

calm down. there is no difference between cast time and too high cost. shields will be useless in both cases.

OrdoHermetica · September 2018

oxygen_thief wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

If you will not support me for increased cost, I give up and good luck to you! 1 second cast time then! That's what you want![/b]

calm down. there is no difference between cast time and too high cost. shields will be useless in both cases.

...there is a significant difference between a shield with a high cast cost and a shield with a cast time. A shield with a high cast cost can still get you out of difficult situations, albeit at the cost of having to go into a recovery rotation afterward. A shield with a cast time can't be used that way.

One is still situationally useful. The other is not.

joaaocaampos · September 2018

oxygen_thief wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

If you will not support me for increased cost, I give up and good luck to you! 1 second cast time then! That's what you want![/b]

calm down. there is no difference between cast time and too high cost. shields will be useless in both cases.

There is difference yes! AGAIN, Healing Ritual had 1 sec cast time, and today is instant cast with increased cost.

It will not be useless. We will not see damage shield spam anymore.

ezio45 · September 2018

joaaocaampos wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

If you will not support me for increased cost, I give up and good luck to you! 1 second cast time then! That's what you want![/b]

calm down. there is no difference between cast time and too high cost. shields will be useless in both cases.

There is difference yes! AGAIN, Healing Ritual had 1 sec cast time, and today is instant cast with increased cost.

It will not be useless. We will not see damage shield spam anymore.

again, if you cant keep shields up they are useless FULL STOP

oxygen_thief · September 2018

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

If you will not support me for increased cost, I give up and good luck to you! 1 second cast time then! That's what you want![/b]

calm down. there is no difference between cast time and too high cost. shields will be useless in both cases.

...there is a significant difference between a shield with a high cast cost and a shield with a cast time. A shield with a high cast cost can still get you out of difficult situations, albeit at the cost of having to go into a recovery rotation afterward. A shield with a cast time can't be used that way.

One is still situationally useful. The other is not.

we already have a shortage of space on our bars to slot a situationally useful skill. inability to use it constantly means you have to learn to play without it. if you can play without it what is the sense to slot it?

joaaocaampos · September 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

again, if you cant keep shields up they are useless FULL STOP

Again, if you can keep shields up they are ridiculous and very strong.

And, yes, you can keep shields up with increased cost! But without spam.

OrdoHermetica · September 2018

oxygen_thief wrote: »

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

If you will not support me for increased cost, I give up and good luck to you! 1 second cast time then! That's what you want![/b]

calm down. there is no difference between cast time and too high cost. shields will be useless in both cases.

...there is a significant difference between a shield with a high cast cost and a shield with a cast time. A shield with a high cast cost can still get you out of difficult situations, albeit at the cost of having to go into a recovery rotation afterward. A shield with a cast time can't be used that way.

One is still situationally useful. The other is not.

we already have a shortage of space on our bars to slot a situationally useful skill. inability to use it constantly means you have to learn to play without it. if you can play without it what is the sense to slot it?

I don't know about you, but my shields are already situational. I don't need them except for certain mechanics in vet PvE/when I get ambushed in PvP - and then I absolutely need them. I'm certainly not keeping them up all the time, at any rate, and if you feel the need to do so... you might want to re-assess how you're playing, because even with the current status quo that's a deeply inefficient way to play.

JKith · September 2018

Apherius wrote: »

Dark exchange is still 1,2 sec cast.

Doesn't it say this in the Natch Potes?
Dark Exchange: This ability and its morphs now restore half their resources immediately, and the other half over 20 seconds. Total resources restored has been increased by approximately 2%. The Health restored remains unchanged.

I guess i thought immediately meant immediately instead of 1.2 sec

sad face

Pet sorc don't have sustain issues ? You must be talking about full dots sorc builds with 1 HA per rotation.
Yeah, talking about the HA rotation ones.

Mage's wrath explosion happend at 20%, never heard about 25%.
Oops, you're right, we lose 5% from nightblade execute... Even more reason for dmg buff!
[/quote]

ezio45 · September 2018

joaaocaampos wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

again, if you cant keep shields up they are useless FULL STOP

Again, if you can keep shields up they are ridiculous and very strong.

And, yes, you can keep shields up with increased cost! But without spam.

not in pvp shields last 2 seconds against a good player, sorc already has to run one set for sustain

joaaocaampos · September 2018

Destary wrote: »

No, i speak about a real separation. For exemple, a skill in PVE and the same skill in PVE don't have the same cost/ same action. Do you understand (i'm not good for explain)?

At least for now this will not be possible. In any MMO that I know this is possible. The only MMO that attempted to do this was WoW, but it was a total disaster. Dead PvP.

There is no PvE in BDO. PvE in GW2 is less active than ESO. That is, these are PVP MMOs.

Skills working differently in PvE and PvP = Bugs and high pings in Cyrodiil.

Destary wrote: »

You said that inscreased the cost will be good, but not for PVP. You know Magsorc in PVE, that can work for that, but in PVP it's the only skill we have to sustain damages. If they increase the cost, that means Magsorc need really more recov (yeah coz they nerf dark exchange too) and less damages.BUT NOW DAMAGES IS POOR IN FULL DAMAGE ! So, if i recap, your idea for magsorc will be more hard to play and sustain and he can't kill
a squirrel ? That for sure a good way for us !

Sorcerer is a monster in PvP. I know! I have one, and I've already faced them. Again, shield spam is ridiculous.

oxygen_thief · September 2018

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

If you will not support me for increased cost, I give up and good luck to you! 1 second cast time then! That's what you want![/b]

calm down. there is no difference between cast time and too high cost. shields will be useless in both cases.

...there is a significant difference between a shield with a high cast cost and a shield with a cast time. A shield with a high cast cost can still get you out of difficult situations, albeit at the cost of having to go into a recovery rotation afterward. A shield with a cast time can't be used that way.

One is still situationally useful. The other is not.

we already have a shortage of space on our bars to slot a situationally useful skill. inability to use it constantly means you have to learn to play without it. if you can play without it what is the sense to slot it?

I don't know about you, but my shields are already situational. I don't need them except for certain mechanics in vet PvE/when I get ambushed in PvP - and then I absolutely need them. I'm certainly not keeping them up all the time, at any rate, and if you feel the need to do so... you might want to re-assess how you're playing, because even with the current status quo that's a deeply inefficient way to play.

iam a pug player from battlegrounds where the only thing that mitigates incoming damage except tiny shields is my light armor. do you want to say you can survive a fight there with situational shielding?

joaaocaampos · September 2018

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

I don't know about you, but my shields are already situational. I don't need them except for certain mechanics in vet PvE/when I get ambushed in PvP - and then I absolutely need them. I'm certainly not keeping them up all the time, at any rate, and if you feel the need to do so... you might want to re-assess how you're playing, because even with the current status quo that's a deeply inefficient way to play.

Exactly! Well said! In PvP, if you want to stay with the shield up all the time, for the whole fight, without dying, I give up.

And, in PvP, I know Sorcerer very well. I have one. And I've faced several Sorcerers.

The Sorcerer is the best class. Nightblade second. But if you want to continue crying for shield spam, I'm sorry for you.

1 sec cast time is inevitable! Increased cost could be a less painful solution.

So... I give up.

Vahrokh · September 2018

joaaocaampos wrote: »

PvE: You will usually use it to survive. But you will do less damage. Heavy Attack + Damage Shield rotation, baby! Better than cast time.

I am already using Heavy Attack rotation and even without EVER using a shield I deal 8k DPS less than a magblade. Now, add a 1s cast shield that reduces DPS by another 15% and... WHY ANYONE WOULD EVER WANT ME AS DPS?