PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

oxygen_thief

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

If you will not support me for increased cost, I give up and good luck to you! 1 second cast time then! That's what you want![/b]

calm down. there is no difference between cast time and too high cost. shields will be useless in both cases.

...there is a significant difference between a shield with a high cast cost and a shield with a cast time. A shield with a high cast cost can still get you out of difficult situations, albeit at the cost of having to go into a recovery rotation afterward. A shield with a cast time can't be used that way.

One is still situationally useful. The other is not.

we already have a shortage of space on our bars to slot a situationally useful skill. inability to use it constantly means you have to learn to play without it. if you can play without it what is the sense to slot it?

I don't know about you, but my shields are already situational. I don't need them except for certain mechanics in vet PvE/when I get ambushed in PvP - and then I absolutely need them. I'm certainly not keeping them up all the time, at any rate, and if you feel the need to do so... you might want to re-assess how you're playing, because even with the current status quo that's a deeply inefficient way to play.

iam a pug player from battlegrounds where the only thing that mitigates incoming damage except tiny shields is my light armor. do you want to say you can survive a fight there with situational shielding?

joaaocaampos

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

I don't know about you, but my shields are already situational. I don't need them except for certain mechanics in vet PvE/when I get ambushed in PvP - and then I absolutely need them. I'm certainly not keeping them up all the time, at any rate, and if you feel the need to do so... you might want to re-assess how you're playing, because even with the current status quo that's a deeply inefficient way to play.

Exactly! Well said! In PvP, if you want to stay with the shield up all the time, for the whole fight, without dying, I give up.

And, in PvP, I know Sorcerer very well. I have one. And I've faced several Sorcerers.

The Sorcerer is the best class. Nightblade second. But if you want to continue crying for shield spam, I'm sorry for you.

1 sec cast time is inevitable! Increased cost could be a less painful solution.

So... I give up.

Vahrokh

joaaocaampos wrote: »

• PvE: You will usually use it to survive. But you will do less damage. Heavy Attack + Damage Shield rotation, baby! Better than cast time.

I am already using Heavy Attack rotation and even without EVER using a shield I deal 8k DPS less than a magblade. Now, add a 1s cast shield that reduces DPS by another 15% and... WHY ANYONE WOULD EVER WANT ME AS DPS?

Apherius

Vahrokh wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

• PvE: You will usually use it to survive. But you will do less damage. Heavy Attack + Damage Shield rotation, baby! Better than cast time.

WHY ANYONE WOULD EVER WANT ME AS DPS?

synergy for alkosh uptime, major berserk ( atronach ) buff for the magNB closest to you.

Yes it's sad.

ezio45

update got me down yall

Sebar80

Apherius wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

• PvE: You will usually use it to survive. But you will do less damage. Heavy Attack + Damage Shield rotation, baby! Better than cast time.

WHY ANYONE WOULD EVER WANT ME AS DPS?

synergy for alkosh uptime, major berserk ( atronach ) buff for the magNB closest to you.

Yes it's sad.

The state of endgame pve is 7 magnbs and one sorc. Sorc not for dps because its dreadful, but for this two things it can do, which is minor prophecy and liquid lightning for tank alkosh proc. to buff an all might nbs

joaaocaampos

Vahrokh wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

• PvE: You will usually use it to survive. But you will do less damage. Heavy Attack + Damage Shield rotation, baby! Better than cast time.

I am already using Heavy Attack rotation and even without EVER using a shield I deal 8k DPS less than a magblade. Now, add a 1s cast shield that reduces DPS by another 15% and... WHY ANYONE WOULD EVER WANT ME AS DPS?

I dont want 1s cast time, I want increased cost. All Magicka builds need Damage Shield, not just Sorcerers.

I'll say it for the last time: 1 sec cast time will come. Developers have heard feedbacks and cast time will remain.

Increased cost is less painful. If you dont fight for increased cost, don't cry later.

kadar

ezio45 wrote: »

update got me down yall

Far to early to stress too much IMO. We've still got 2-3 PTS cycles and then the actual live patch notes before anything is set in stone.

Apherius

Time to play with surge instead of hardened ward in PVE on sorc now.

not really a big issue ( I'm not talking about PVP ), I won't spend any gold on spell power pots anymore.

ezio45

The_Outsider wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

update got me down yall

Far to early to stress too much IMO. We've still got 2-3 PTS cycles and then the actual live patch notes before anything is set in stone.

I thought like that at first to but now i just dont know.

part of me just wants to take the lose and leave. Its a game i play for enjoyment. I shouldn't have to be outraged every 3 months

Dr.NRG

Honestly, from a pvp perspective I think the changes are great and fair. ASure, a lot of you will see ot as a hard nefer at first but it is really not and you rather just need to readjust. Besides the pet buff, sorc gameplay kind has been always the same for the majority, which is super boring. Now people will have to find new way to build this class and guess what, there are many other ways (especially with the coming patch) to play a mag sorc and kick some serious ***

Sebar80

Apherius wrote: »

Time to play with surge instead of hardened ward in PVE on sorc now.

not really a big issue ( I'm not talking about PVP ), I won't spend any gold on spell power pots anymore.

Are we talking Fungal Grotto PVE or Saint Llothis PVE, because you can forget surge or pots for fungal but i can give you may own surge in addition to yours and it wont save you from his poison cone especially once storm of the heavens are going out. This 1 second cast time is exactly what makes the difference between alive and dead and good luck to cast it second time if your wisdom allows you to cast it preemptively, please stream it as I want to watch it and learn

joaaocaampos

• Annulment and morphs cost: 7290 Magicka from 4590 Magicka (an increase of 59%). 7290 is the Healing Ritual cost today.
• Conjured Ward/Hardened Ward cost: 5580 Magicka from 3510 Magicka. Empowered Ward cost: 5160 Magicka from 3240 Magicka.

Anyway, you indirectly prefer cast time, because inevitably it will come.

kadar

ezio45 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

update got me down yall

Far to early to stress too much IMO. We've still got 2-3 PTS cycles and then the actual live patch notes before anything is set in stone.

I thought like that at first to but now i just dont know.

part of me just wants to take the lose and leave. Its a game i play for enjoyment. I shouldn't have to be outraged every 3 months

Yea, I mean... People were outraged for the Morrowind sustain-pocolypse, and outraged for the more recent shield duration nerf. The people that quit missed out on all this time of playing a fun game. Their loss, tbh.

Apherius

Sebar80 wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Time to play with surge instead of hardened ward in PVE on sorc now.

not really a big issue ( I'm not talking about PVP ), I won't spend any gold on spell power pots anymore.

Are we talking Fungal Grotto PVE or Saint Llothis PVE, because you can forget surge or pots for fungal but i can give you may own surge in addition to yours and it wont save you from his poison cone especially once storm of the heavens are going out. This 1 second cast time is exactly what makes the difference between alive and dead and good luck to cast it second time if your wisdom allows you to cast it preemptively, please stream it as I want to watch it and learn

Totally forgot about st llothis mb.

ezio45

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Honestly, from a pvp perspective I think the changes are great and fair. ASure, a lot of you will see ot as a hard nefer at first but it is really not and you rather just need to readjust. Besides the pet buff, sorc gameplay kind has been always the same for the majority, which is super boring. Now people will have to find new way to build this class and guess what, there are many other ways (especially with the coming patch) to play a mag sorc and kick some serious ***

the buff to pets is hallow, pet sorc wasnt having sustain issues and there still as annoying and terrible to use as before. Personally I hate pet sorc and wont run one

Sebar80

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Honestly, from a pvp perspective I think the changes are great and fair. ASure, a lot of you will see ot as a hard nefer at first but it is really not and you rather just need to readjust. Besides the pet buff, sorc gameplay kind has been always the same for the majority, which is super boring. Now people will have to find new way to build this class and guess what, there are many other ways (especially with the coming patch) to play a mag sorc and kick some serious ***

Please enlightened us and give us one example of valid build for pvp, just one.

Tonturri

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Honestly, from a pvp perspective I think the changes are great and fair. ASure, a lot of you will see ot as a hard nefer at first but it is really not and you rather just need to readjust. Besides the pet buff, sorc gameplay kind has been always the same for the majority, which is super boring. Now people will have to find new way to build this class and guess what, there are many other ways (especially with the coming patch) to play a mag sorc and kick some serious ***

Do you think that, in the entire life of the game so far, people have not tried a great many different combinations and somehow need encouragement to 'try something new'? Do you think that experienced players are just, for whatever reason, totally unable to gauge how certain changes would influence their gameplay based on said lengthy experience with the class?

Are you aware that the PTS server exists? Do you have anything to say beyond vague 'it looks like a hard nerf but it's really not' and 'I think the changes are great and fair'?

Are you aware that EVERY class and stam/mag variant has a 'meta'?

Do you think - and please, I'm very interested as to how and why - that people can build a sorcerer post-patch to the same level of effectiveness as pre-patch, compared to the competition?

ezio45

The_Outsider wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

update got me down yall

Far to early to stress too much IMO. We've still got 2-3 PTS cycles and then the actual live patch notes before anything is set in stone.

I thought like that at first to but now i just dont know.

part of me just wants to take the lose and leave. Its a game i play for enjoyment. I shouldn't have to be outraged every 3 months

Yea, I mean... People were outraged for the Morrowind sustain-pocolypse, and outraged for the more recent shield duration nerf. The people that quit missed out on all this time of playing a fun game. Their loss, tbh.

Like ya, things got a little better after how bad morrowind was but its just been like the last 4 patches

how am i even suppose to get invested in a new character, put in the work to get it geared out when the next patch that character could literally be unplayable. How do I justify that? Unplayable before I even get to run content with it or have fun pvp'ing on it.

Nicko_Lps

The_Outsider wrote: »

troomar wrote: »

Murkmire Class Rating, completely unbiased (*), useful for new players which class to pick



(*) This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events, locales, and incidents are either the products of the author's imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

Stamwarden is outparsing Stamblade on 25m dummies on PTS. Time to update^

Sorc healers are also at least mediocre. They keep the group alive + yummy synergies

Well...I would not call magDk trash dps... Maybe its very squishy to get max dps output but trash? No..

Alaztor91

ZOS, if you don't want sorcs shieldstacking and for some reason can't rework damage shields into a major/minor system, then maybe you could try something like this:

Delete the Annulment skill, make Conjured Ward take its current place as the Light Armor active skill(without the absurd cast time change ofc) and change the garbage daedric summoning passive known as Rebate to something like: your Daedric Summoning pets gain the effects of your damage shields. Fixes shieldstacking while leaving non-sorc light armor users with a damage shield ability and also keeps the possibility to shield pets via passives.

Then you could change the now empty spot left by Conjured Ward on the daedric summoning tree for other kind of survivability skill.

As for PvE I don't really know if you have to shieldstack(2 different shields) on vet trials to prevent oneshots or if only 1 shield is enough, so assuming that only 1 shield is enough and you still think that's somehow OP(why design such a mechanic in the first place then?) then maybe you could change that attack/mechanic to deal a % of it's damage as oblivion damage.

manny254

@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Wrobel

I honestly dislike this games shield mechanics more than most players, but I think this is not the answer. I think this current situation was caused by ZoS putting off these major balances changes for a long time. Now they have made several changes at once.

First off I do think current shields over perform in PVP because through using these skills you are negating every possible offensive crit bonus your opponent could have. So I do think allowing them to be crit is a good choice, but i do not agree with the logic used for the further changes.

It seems that after that choice ZoS thought that shields should have resistances to make up for being critable. I would suspect that after that choice ZoS felt they needed a cast time to be balanced in PVE.

I think that ZoS needs to revert the changes to resistances, and this would remove any possible need for a cast time. Although in PVP the shields should be given the players critical resistance value. From there I would see how the balance is, and see if shields need further balance adjustments in either direction.

Vahrokh

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Honestly, from a pvp perspective I think the changes are great and fair. ASure, a lot of you will see ot as a hard nefer at first but it is really not and you rather just need to readjust. Besides the pet buff, sorc gameplay kind has been always the same for the majority, which is super boring. Now people will have to find new way to build this class and guess what, there are many other ways (especially with the coming patch) to play a mag sorc and kick some serious ***

I and many others rolled a mage / summoner in 2014. If I go dust off my 2005 WoW mage in 2018, guess what, it still is the same, trusty mage.
If I go dust off a magsorc after update 20, I find a pseudo-healer, pseudo "don't know if use heavy armor and suck or keep light armor and die" that anyway does not feel like a mage AT ALL any more.

I rolled a pure DPS class exactly because it is a pure class. No hybrid stuff. No healing, no heavy armor no bull. Just a dang, classic, pure range DPS. In every single game they come with the same kit: 1 big nuke, 1 shield, 1 blink (streak), 1 root.
In 2014 I could be that.
In 2018 much less. Gone is "big nuke" class signature. Gone is the "blink". Root is not even on the radar. And now, we lose the last bastion of identiy: shield.

Honestly, I think the changes are terrible and class archetype breaking.

mmolegends44

All you got to do is no shields for sorcs inside cyrodil inside pve let the sorcs use their shields of that doesn't work screw it add the cast time sick and tired of these sorcs shield stacking and cannot penetrate through the ones complainin are the ones that know mag sorcs are overpowered in pvp everyone is a mag sorc they know they don't die often at all spam shields and healing ward hell you guys should nerf healing ward give that a cast time too

Juju_beans

Vahrokh wrote: »

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Honestly, from a pvp perspective I think the changes are great and fair. ASure, a lot of you will see ot as a hard nefer at first but it is really not and you rather just need to readjust. Besides the pet buff, sorc gameplay kind has been always the same for the majority, which is super boring. Now people will have to find new way to build this class and guess what, there are many other ways (especially with the coming patch) to play a mag sorc and kick some serious ***

I and many others rolled a mage / summoner in 2014. If I go dust off my 2005 WoW mage in 2018, guess what, it still is the same, trusty mage.
If I go dust off a magsorc after update 20, I find a pseudo-healer, pseudo "don't know if use heavy armor and suck or keep light armor and die" that anyway does not feel like a mage AT ALL any more.

I rolled a pure DPS class exactly because it is a pure class. No hybrid stuff. No healing, no heavy armor no bull. Just a dang, classic, pure range DPS. In every single game they come with the same kit: 1 big nuke, 1 shield, 1 blink (streak), 1 root.
In 2014 I could be that.
In 2018 much less. Gone is "big nuke" class signature. Gone is the "blink". Root is not even on the radar. And now, we lose the last bastion of identiy: shield.

Honestly, I think the changes are terrible and class archetype breaking.

LOL..oh no it is not the "same", not by a long shot.
The changes from 2005 (vanilla mage) to Legion are so drastic that they cannot even compare.

Judas Helviaryn

I finally got time to do vMA on the PTS, and it is beyond f!$#ng annoying.

Did I complete it? Yes.
Did I enjoy it as much as I do live? Hell no.

One, having a cast time on wards, which are already the sorc's panic button, is a gamble that requires you to have yet another panic button so you can block and cancel the ward, should your exposed light armor-clad ass have an impending smack incoming, and given most magsorc's playstyles with this aforementioned panic button, this situation comes around almost as a mechanic now.

This means you need a panic button for your panic button, but what do you do? Use Dark Deal/Conversion, which.. also has a cast time? Double bar (waste, waste, waste) your twilight and hope to god you're not a petsorc DPS build with tormentor instead?

Join the new Destro/resto meta and forego the magicka sorcerer's once-considerable versatility just to have a healing ward that A: only applies full strength when you're nearly dead, and B: really screws up your timing when you get used to your other wards being on a timer?

In a game where you can go from 25k health to nothing in almost the blink of an eye in PVP? Really? What's the sorc's toolset for survival, if the ward weren't there? Now you have to rely on that, because your ward isn't effectively there in the one moment it's actually needed, as a panic button. You don't need wards starting out in a fight. You don't need them throughout the fight. You need them in that one moment you're vulnerable, and if you want to make that particular window more skill-intensive to hit, cast times are not the answer.

This did make the class harder to play, and that's not always a bad thing. I'm all for having a challenge in my game, but what this did is make the class less FUN to play. You went about this the wrong way, the cast timer is not the answer to your issue with magsorcs.

I fear for the other class playstyles relying solely on annulment.

WuffyCerulei

Just wanna say, @ZOS_RobGarrett , if you guys truly are hellbent on making shields less cheesey, consider putting a cooldown like that of streak. It'll keep people from spamming the shields a lot, but still have the instant defense. It'll most likely have less of an impact of PVE as well. PVE people don't have to shield up as often as PVPers do, but need the instant damage mitigation. At most, they may need 3 casts in a row. At most.

Sange13

I really hope ZOS listens to the feedback about the shields and reverts their decision on it. Only then can we actually have a proper discussion about Sorcs specifically.

cpuScientist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24n9fYPHkfI

very good video on the Nerfs/Buffs cycled since Imperial City

cpuScientist

My Sorc is my main. It is my best crafter, my favorite of my 10 characters I have a stam and mag of every class, I play all 10 every damn patch in PvP just to get stones and what not. Then stick on Sorc for most of the remaining time. It has gotten harder and harder to do that. Ever since the stun was taken off frag and we needed to use DSA staff I started really feeling the fun be sucked out. Streak should be our go through block/dodge skill and frag be our range stun. Helps our bar space.

I will just see what ZOS does as it goes through the PTS cycle. Leave any feedback I can. Have it be ignored of-course.

AHHHHHH I even had a song I used to sing as I played my favorite class in PvP and PvE. My hands feel right on the keyboard when playing sorc. Slowly it has felt more and more crap though since streak and then frag nerfs. I hated the meteor armageddon. I was happy at first haha we on top. But then I saw the fall, and it got old so fast. And I was on here wanting that cage to be deleted from game, turned into a dot, let defensive stay, but that crap stun just needed to be deleted and make frag and streak the stuns of the class.

poor sorc, damn ZOS how does one make something so fun differnt and interesting turn into this boring slow weak class. How do you nerf it over and over, then buff us into a certain corner where it is all we have left and then boop take that away like with cage like with dark deal like with dsa staff. WTF lol