PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

anatole1234

People Seem to forget that sorc has access to a Breath of Life equivalent : Twilight Matriarch. Although I would love for sorc's pet to be castable and not toggeable to make it more consistent with other classes and not waste a skill spot . Let's be real for a second : shield stacking has been a massive issue since day one. Already working on a heavy armor magicka sorc to show it won't be the death of the class.

Sevn

Crittable shields alone does nothing as npc's do not crit. Newsflash, this isn't just about pvp.

Kerioko

Healing Ward Nerfed!

Don't know if this has been added to the thread yet or not, but healing ward apparently got ninja nerfed and the change was not added to the patch notes.

Apparently it is loosing its instant heal on cast. Many think this is to compensate for the new arena resto that is being released and to make the ward ally morph more viable.

Nerf is detailed more in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436827/healing-ward-lost-the-upfront-heal

Chilly-McFreeze

anatole1234 wrote: »

People Seem to forget that sorc has access to a Breath of Life equivalent : Twilight Matriarch. Although I would love for sorc's pet to be castable and not toggeable to make it more consistent with other classes and not waste a skill spot . Let's be real for a second : shield stacking has been a massive issue since day one. Already working on a heavy armor magicka sorc to show it won't be the death of the class.

I'm waiting for your results. Not like people didn't already tried to make a no-shields magsorc work.

But short question: how do you keep the twilight alive without instant wards? And where do you put all your skills when your two bars are riddled with toggles and your OL bar is gone?

Onmari

anatole1234 wrote: »

People Seem to forget that sorc has access to a Breath of Life equivalent : Twilight Matriarch. Although I would love for sorc's pet to be castable and not toggeable to make it more consistent with other classes and not waste a skill spot . Let's be real for a second : shield stacking has been a massive issue since day one. Already working on a heavy armor magicka sorc to show it won't be the death of the class.

I don't play a Templar, but don't remember Breath of Life taking up two spots on the bar. Or the other option is waiting on a summons time followed by another button push for the Matriarch to heal, right? If I am wrong, lemme know. Pets have always seemed clunky and costly on bar space to me so I went in another direction with my build.

firedrgn

maboleth wrote: »

If they didn't want to for shields to stack, they could have just make one to exclude another. Simple as that. Either use hardened (or conjured) or harness, but not both. One cancels the other.

Ya but they sent us down this road years ago

cpuScientist

While we are all rightfully upset about magSorc. Please don't forget stamSorcs got murdered.

Legit what does a stamSorc have over other classes now. Their sustain tool got destroyed. Their 3rd bar gone. They have no class abilities or passives.

Please ZOS give them a melee frag or something. They have no in class workable burst ability. Make regular frag when hard cast work like crystal frag. And then when it gets procced it's the reduced cost crap. And then free up the other morph to be melee proc cast. Or something.

StamSorc has nothing going for it that another class just flat does better.

Kerioko

With the change to overload, will it now work with elemental weapon?

cpuScientist

Also overload change is not strong. If it added to your current weapons light attack damage it would be a strong single Target ulti option worth using. But as it is it replaces your normal light attack so you need to subtract what your average light attack damage is from the average overload. And you find that your better off casting the atro by a margin lol.

And that's not to say Nerf overload. Because even destro ukti is better. And that's not to say Nerf destro ulti either lol.

WreckfulAbandon

No compromise will work here. Any one of these awful changes sinks mSorc as a competitive spec in PvP outside of a zerg. Cast time kills mSorc. Crittable shields with resistances kills them as well. What someone about said about 10k+ Suprise Attacks is true. Looking at 20k Leaps and 20k+ Spectral Bows. mSorc won't survive that. The third bar from Overload is necessary to compete but the loss of that hurts less than the previous 2. Regardless, I'm switching to stamina toons next patch. They're better than mSorc on live already and these new changes are just completely ridiculous.

Hope satisfying a bunch of PvEers and crappy PvPers is worth the loss of a lot of mSorc subscriptions, not to mention a lot of mSorcs just leaving the game for greener pastures. Actually, I don't really care anymore.

Samsgaard

The nerf to Dark Deal is a blow to my hybrid but slightly-stamina-leaning sorc tank. She gets nothing in return. Meanwhile, as if the gap between DK tanks and sorc tanks wasn't wide enough already, DK tanks are getting buffs. DK shield still is insta-cast and now is way more powerful because it will have super high resistance. Also, if I understand the notes, DKs will be getting increased range with Puncture and Slash.

The crippling nerf to Ward is a death blow to my up-and-coming high magicka sorc tank, who relies on shields. Light armor, frost staff...not going to cut it without shields. She may not even be able to stand her ground against (and drop the axe on) Knight Commander Panthius in Kvatch Arena anymore; much less, tank vet HM dungeons. One less tank I can queue with. One less tank to speed up queue times for DPS.

LadyNalcarya

anatole1234 wrote: »

People Seem to forget that sorc has access to a Breath of Life equivalent : Twilight Matriarch. Although I would love for sorc's pet to be castable and not toggeable to make it more consistent with other classes and not waste a skill spot . Let's be real for a second : shield stacking has been a massive issue since day one. Already working on a heavy armor magicka sorc to show it won't be the death of the class.

Nah, I'm a templar and I dont need to double slot my breath of life and shield it so it doesnt die. Oh wait! Shields are nerfed so it's much more likely that braindead bird will just die at the worst possible moment.
"Oh shi-" heal is supposed to be reliable. Pets are not reliable (their AI isnt very good) and summoning them takes a while.

Twohothardware

Seems like the easier fix than adding an initial cast time would be to just lower shield strength in PvE and add some kind of cast time delay between the use of two different shields to reduce shield stacking in PvP. On the PvP side the whole issue with shields is being able to repeatedly recast Hardened Ward + Harness Magicka + Healing Ward on top of each other. On the PvE side shields are just too big since they scale off damage and max magicka which is what you go for anyways in a DPS build.

Icarus42

I have been playing this game since it came out. I have only played as a magsorc DW the whole time because I love the playstyle. I do pvp, pve and casual because I love the storyline as I am an old school Morrowind fan. I have seen this class get changed and morphed and nerfed into the ground. Each time I have rebuilt my magsorc DW and everytime I get it back up to snuff they nerf it again. I have learned to adapt and for the most part me and my toon have survived

This by far is the worst I have ever seen, it is too much all at once!! Talk about having to completely retool a character crafting new gear etc. It does not even seem that I can retool my character with this. I have already tested out alternative builds and they are all very unforgiving and clunky. With the one second cast time on shields it completely breaks up any kind of close in high combat situation in pvp, and completely ruins rotation and dps in pve. The only thing I can resort to is casual game play.

I am so disappointed in these projected changes. We as a community of sorcs are pretty good at rolling with the punches and I guess that is what we will have to do if we are to survive this knock out punch.

bardx86

Twohothardware wrote: »

Seems like the easier fix than adding an initial cast time would be to just lower shield strength in PvE and add some kind of cast time delay between the use of two different shields to reduce shield stacking in PvP.

But that is more or less the issue, 1 shield doesn't cut it in PVP. Adding crit damage to shield is going to make these even worst. Shield can be taken down faster than a Sorc can reapply them. I'm all for removing shield stacking but Sorcs will still need a valid defensive tool. 1 shield taking crits isn't going to cut it cast time or not.

Illuvatarr

@ZOS_RobGarrett

Sorc is the worst class in the game after the frenzy of nerfs you guys have done to the class.

They have the worst sustain. They have the worst dps (their timed burst dps in pvp is comparable but is nothing compared to the upfront burst dps other classes can do and can SUSTAIN). They have the worst survivability. They have no debuffs. They have less buffs than any other class.

Are you guys planning to destroy the class and then build it back up in some new format?

Really curious how you guys can justify what you are doing. Seriously. The chart that guy posted earlier offers visually what alot of us are thinking and have been thinking.

Twohothardware

bardx86 wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Seems like the easier fix than adding an initial cast time would be to just lower shield strength in PvE and add some kind of cast time delay between the use of two different shields to reduce shield stacking in PvP.

But that is more or less the issue, 1 shield doesn't cut it in PVP. Adding crit damage to shield is going to make these even worst. Shield can be taken down faster than a Sorc can reapply them. I'm all for removing shield stacking but Sorcs will still need a valid defensive tool. 1 shield taking crits isn't going to cut it cast time or not.

Most Sorcs haven't been making full use of the tools they're given to evade high damage. Most don't run pets, they don't use Streak unless they're running away, they don't make use of mines unless it's a duel, and they definitely don't switch to heavy armor like Stamina players have to, they just face tank with 50-55K Magicka Shields and kite a little around a proc pet from their monster set.

Maybe it's time for the ESO devs to redevelop the Sorceror playstyle to get away from players stacking multiple shields and focus more on other tools for survivability.

waitwhat

Perhaps the following suggestions may better adjust shields rather than a cast-time requirement:

1. Do not allow shields to absorb damage from DoTs placed on a player PRIOR to the shield's application. It doesn't quite make sense for an external shield to start absorbing poison and bleed damage when the target is already poisoned or bleeding, particularly if the shields are gas-permeable, as one assumes them to be.

2. Perhaps we should isolate a class of skills that require exponential cost increases for repeated casts in a short period of time, as we do with streak. Cloak could be a candidate, but I say that as a stamblade who doesn't need it as much. (Hint: it's no longer our most effective defense.) Snipe should definitely be a skill in this class. Do you know much strength it takes to bring a powerful non-compound bow to full draw? (Hint: A lot.) Damage reduction shields, as opposed to ability absorption skills like Absorb Magic and Shimmering Shield, could well be another candidate for inclusion in this hypothetical classification of abilities that need cost increases of successive casts. Unlike the absorption shields, which have a narrowly construed scope of effectiveness, harness and hardened ward reduce all damage taken by a player's health. Unlike igneous, harness and hardened ward both scale with the max damage resource of a build, tying augmentations to their defensive power with augmentations to a player's offensive power. Unlike healing ward, harness and hardened ward do not have a risky health threshold upon which they provide the full extent of their defensive benefit. As it stands, they are carte blanche damage mitigation without requiring significant sacrifices to offensive power and without requiring significant risks to a player's health. Imposing a repeat cast cost would increase the burden of using these abilities much as a cast time would.

3. Do not allow damage mitigation shields to stack. Have harness, hardened, igneous, healing ward, and sun shield all replace one another on subsequent casts, rather than augment one another.

Those ideas may not be the best, but hopefully they contribute enough to the conversation that we can move forward without a 1-second cast time.

waitwhat

@ZOS_RobGarrett Perhaps, rather than a 1 second cast time, make Hardened Ward insta-cast, but have it take 1 second to take effect, similar to that one morph of Time Stop.

Sange13

Considering all the feedback for the cast time is overwhelmingly against it, can someone @ZOS please just acknowledge that it's likely a mistake and investigate alternate methods of approaching the shield stacking issue?

I haven't read every single comment, but I haven't seen anyone that thinks this is a good idea (outside of those who also expressed a hatred for Sorcs generally). At best, some people are willing to accept it, but most of those even acknowledge it's not the best approach too.

CritsTheBed

waitwhat wrote: »

Perhaps the following suggestions may better adjust shields rather than a cast-time requirement:

1. Do not allow shields to absorb damage from DoTs placed on a player PRIOR to the shield's application. It doesn't quite make sense for an external shield to start absorbing poison and bleed damage when the target is already poisoned or bleeding, particularly if the shields are gas-permeable, as one assumes them to be.

2. Perhaps we should isolate a class of skills that require exponential cost increases for repeated casts in a short period of time, as we do with streak. Cloak could be a candidate, but I say that as a stamblade who doesn't need it as much. (Hint: it's no longer our most effective defense.) Snipe should definitely be a skill in this class. Do you know much strength it takes to bring a powerful non-compound bow to full draw? (Hint: A lot.) Damage reduction shields, as opposed to ability absorption skills like Absorb Magic and Shimmering Shield, could well be another candidate for inclusion in this hypothetical classification of abilities that need cost increases of successive casts. Unlike the absorption shields, which have a narrowly construed scope of effectiveness, harness and hardened ward reduce all damage taken by a player's health. Unlike igneous, harness and hardened ward both scale with the max damage resource of a build, tying augmentations to their defensive power with augmentations to a player's offensive power. Unlike healing ward, harness and hardened ward do not have a risky health threshold upon which they provide the full extent of their defensive benefit. As it stands, they are carte blanche damage mitigation without requiring significant sacrifices to offensive power and without requiring significant risks to a player's health. Imposing a repeat cast cost would increase the burden of using these abilities much as a cast time would.

3. Do not allow damage mitigation shields to stack. Have harness, hardened, igneous, healing ward, and sun shield all replace one another on subsequent casts, rather than augment one another.

Those ideas may not be the best, but hopefully they contribute enough to the conversation that we can move forward without a 1-second cast time.

I don't think any more cast times should he added to skills like cloak because that's a class defining skill that makes them special. But I could be ok with the last bit of what you said. So shields don't stack. Frees up some bar space and I could wrap my head around changing my build and bars since my main ward doesn't have a cast time.

Problem is I don't think the people in charge of combat have the ability or knowledge to make that happen. I know that sounds super insulting but check it out. So many problems could be avoided if pve and pvp could be balanced separately right? Well to me balancing pve and pvp serperately and your idea of negating a shield when a player tries to put up his stacks falls in into the same space. Things that seem possible. So far the former hasn't happened in these 4 years so I'm left with the conclusion that the combat team can only do things like cast times or add subtract damage.

I'm sure that sounds crazy to some but zos not balancing or adjusting certain skills or mechanics the moment you step into a pvp environment tells me they're not able to do that at a base level. That's why they Nerf.

Vahrokh

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting.

Hello, @ZOS_RobGarrett, and thank you for replying to this uproar.

The above quoted sentence is the foundation of the reason why you are nerfing shields.

I find a massive contradiction in this foundation, though.

Magicka Nightblades deal sensibly more damage than magicka and stamina sorcerers, despite stamina sorcerers risking much more.

At the same time, Magicka Nightblades are as survivable as Magicka sorcerers, to the point they are the premiere class to enter Veteran Cloudrest portals and do quick, burst and safe damage in an hostile, high oblivion damage filled environment.

At the same time, Magicka Nightblades are those who are invited in a number of 7 (seven) to complete Veteran Asylum / Cloudrest, while 1 (one) Magicka Sorcerer is invited as healbot and Alkosh buff bot.

So, by your own statement, could you please elaborate on which kind of choice Magicka Nightblades are doing, to justify the most unfun, clunky and even bad looking (poop animation!!!) nerf on Magicka Sorcerers?

joaaocaampos

@ZOS_RobGarrett The best way, the best solution.

Instead of increasing cast time to 1 second, the cost should be increased. Healing Ritual is an example: the ability had 1 sec cast time and now is instant cast, with increased cost.

• Annulment costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 4590 Magicka. That is, an increase of 59%.
• Conjured Ward costs have been increased to 5580 (+59%), 5890 (+68%) or 6210 (+77%) Magicka from 3510 Magicka. Respectively, the Empowered Ward cost would be 5160, 5440 or 5740.

Unfortunately, something needs to be done. Increased cost has worked before, may work again. No shield spam!

If you want increased cost, press "Agree".
If you want cast time, press "Insightful".

Minalan

joaaocaampos wrote: »

@ZOS_RobGarrett The best way, the best solution.

Instead of increasing cast time to 1 second, the cost should be increased. Healing Ritual is an example: the ability had 1 sec cast time and now is instant cast, with increased cost.

• Annulment costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 4590 Magicka. That is, an increase of 59%.
• Conjured Ward costs have been increased to 5580 (+59%), 5890 (+68%) or 6210 (+77%) Magicka from 3510 Magicka. Respectively, the Empowered Ward cost would be 5570, 5440 or 5740.

Unfortunately, something needs to be done. Increased cost has worked before, may work again. No shield spam!

If you want increased cost, press "Agree".
If you want cast time, press "Insightful".

How about neither, would that be "Awesome"?

Malamar1229

I forgot to mention one more thing....will you be changing shattering blows? Because that CP star is another huge issue now that shields are crittable.

Zer0oo

Btw why can you not crit cast shields now?

joaaocaampos

Minalan wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

@ZOS_RobGarrett The best way, the best solution.

Instead of increasing cast time to 1 second, the cost should be increased. Healing Ritual is an example: the ability had 1 sec cast time and now is instant cast, with increased cost.

• Annulment costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 4590 Magicka. That is, an increase of 59%.
• Conjured Ward costs have been increased to 5580 (+59%), 5890 (+68%) or 6210 (+77%) Magicka from 3510 Magicka. Respectively, the Empowered Ward cost would be 5570, 5440 or 5740.

Unfortunately, something needs to be done. Increased cost has worked before, may work again. No shield spam!

If you want increased cost, press "Agree".
If you want cast time, press "Insightful".

How about neither, would that be "Awesome"?

I also wish there was no cast time or increased cost, but... I'm trying to ease things.

Sange13

Minalan wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

@ZOS_RobGarrett The best way, the best solution.

Instead of increasing cast time to 1 second, the cost should be increased. Healing Ritual is an example: the ability had 1 sec cast time and now is instant cast, with increased cost.

• Annulment costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 4590 Magicka. That is, an increase of 59%.
• Conjured Ward costs have been increased to 5580 (+59%), 5890 (+68%) or 6210 (+77%) Magicka from 3510 Magicka. Respectively, the Empowered Ward cost would be 5570, 5440 or 5740.

Unfortunately, something needs to be done. Increased cost has worked before, may work again. No shield spam!

If you want increased cost, press "Agree".
If you want cast time, press "Insightful".

How about neither, would that be "Awesome"?

I still think a 3-6 second cooldown would be a better solution.

Malamar1229

Sange13 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

@ZOS_RobGarrett The best way, the best solution.

Instead of increasing cast time to 1 second, the cost should be increased. Healing Ritual is an example: the ability had 1 sec cast time and now is instant cast, with increased cost.

• Annulment costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 4590 Magicka. That is, an increase of 59%.
• Conjured Ward costs have been increased to 5580 (+59%), 5890 (+68%) or 6210 (+77%) Magicka from 3510 Magicka. Respectively, the Empowered Ward cost would be 5570, 5440 or 5740.

Unfortunately, something needs to be done. Increased cost has worked before, may work again. No shield spam!

If you want increased cost, press "Agree".
If you want cast time, press "Insightful".

How about neither, would that be "Awesome"?

I still think a 3-6 second cooldown would be a better solution.

Sure. Let's put that same cooldown in everyone elses main defense too. Like cloak

Massacre_Wurm

Add 1 second cast to light armor's shield but leave sorc's ward like it was before.
Sorcs will still have their 911 button in pve but shield stacking will be harder.