DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

1. Your 20k hp squishling dies to any burst as well. You literally die to 2-3 attacks. watch ur videos. they dont even combo u. You just melt.

Of course. I would expect nothing less if I get hit.

I play a build based on avoiding damage, not tanking it (hence why I say Rune Cage is ruining playstyles atm).

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Again, the counterplay to ur combo exists only in terms of people actually seeing you and expecting it. You attack them from stealth. You are ganking them and instakill them to actually avoid giving them counterplay.

Again, proactive defenses. Listening to sound cues (i.e. combat music). Did you just skip everything I wrote?

Times I've died to my own build: 0 (despite being squishy af).

pieratsos wrote: »

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

Yes... when you're out in the open where a bow build can hit you with burst combo and happen to be playing a medium armor dodge roller(lol). When you're not playing a medium armor dodge roller, you keep shields up. Simple.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Never said that overload gank is not gank. It is gank and its also with no counterplay just like any gank. Thats the entire purpose of gank builds.

If "ganking"/stealth oriented builds are such a big issue to you, go make a thread about it. It is not the topic of this one.

pieratsos wrote: »

5. Potatoes that just spam rune cage dont kill anything. They are zerglings and the combination of other people attacking you with that guy rune caging you is what kills you. If you are actually dying to a potato sorc with rune cage you have massive l2p issues. Just like a zergling spamming snipe from 40 meters. Alone he wont kill anything but when people start piling up that zergling spamming snipe will be the reason u die. This is called poor design of skills and snipe is amongst the top conteders when it comes to that.

Even a potato sorc can cast Curse on you & then Rune Cage->Frags. That is the issue with having abilities that require zero skill to operate and disable the only means of survival medium armor builds have available.

On the other hand a good player can easily survive a zergling snipe spammer because while you might not always be able to avoid the first snipe, you always have time to CC Break+Dodge Roll the second (and one non-Asylum snipe alone is 8-10k burst only).


But sure, keep downplaying how overpowered Rune Cage is by comparing it to Snipe lmao.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Focusing on the actual issue? You derailed the thread and telling everyone to l2p with ur biased statements trying to discuss a class you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Someone needs to break it to you. You are not jesus christ and u are not here to save the game. We dont give a flying **** about what you think balance is and ur egotistical attitude trying to balance the entire game around you personally is starting to pissing everyone off.

Based on what I've read in this thread alone, I'm going to have to say I have way more knowledge on the sorc class (despite it not being my most played class) than certain people who seem more interested in attacking me than discussing the topic.

I guess that's what happens when people run out of arguments to defend Rune Cage. Divert the topic, get people to discuss something else so you get to keep your overpowered ability and ruining the game. That's the plan, isn't it?

You can stop pretending you want it balanced, all you want is to get free kills in PvP because you aren't good enough to get kills otherwise.

You dont die to ur build cause no one plays that ***.

So either dodge roll every 1-2s or keep shields up 100% of the time because some dumb-ass plays a ganking build and thinks his build has counterplay. Ok then, u can cloak 100% of the time too. There is ur counterplay.

And now you're drawing false parallels between using primary defense and secondary defense.

Dodge rolling (when in the open) on a stamina build is sustainable, spamming cloak isn't.

And vice versa for magicka builds.


Not that I'd expect you to recognize the difference.

Also, Rune Cage actually stuns people through cloak (if cast before it).

pieratsos wrote: »

Its not about me having an issue with gank builds. Its about just one more of ur dumb biased comments about ur build having counterplay. It doesnt and no matter how u try to convince people that it has it wont change that.

If you don't have a problem with them, why bring them up? Surely if these builds had no counterplay you would have problems with them. Logic, you're allowed to use it.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, potatoes cant time curse cage frag to hit together. That would require them to actually know what they are doing. And only potatoes die to that. So if you are just dying to that ur build is trash defensively and nothing should be balanced around that build. Just because u hate the meta it doesnt make you a special snowflake.

Because pressing 2-3 buttons is so difficult? You don't even need to find an opportune burst window or catch opponent off guard when using Rune Cage, you just get a free kill.

And yes, my build must be "defensively trash" to score like this in a (rare) BG with no sorcs:



...but sure, keep downplaying how disastrous Rune Cage is to build diversity right now and trying to make it about "your build sucks" rather than "Rune Cage is overpowered". The very least you could do is stop pretending you don't like Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Im not comparing it to snipe in terms of which one is the most broken and no i dont want it to get free kills. Keep spinning words to fit them into ur agenda. You are not fooling anyone. Just making urself look more dumb.

Based on this thread you showcased zero knowledge when it comes to the class and u have embarrased urself. You are just living in an imaginary world. You have literally tried to give videos as proof and u couldnt even analyze what was happening in the video. Lmao. You know the dunning kruger effect or whatever the hell its called. Fits perfectly in ur case.

Attacking you instead of discussing the topic? Thats rich coming from someone telling everyone to l2p. I respond in the same way cause its the only language you seem to be able to respond to.

I did analyze the video? If you mean this where I get a kill in a normal 1vX scenario, cloak, get CC'd by Rune Cage through cloak (which you told me to use against RC, lol) and die as I CC break without anything I can do about it.

Or this where I've recorded the most ideal scenarios where you can receive the combo (tanky builds with Impreg etc, all heals & defensive buffs up) and it is still unsurvivable.

I've also analyzed the numbers behind the whole burst to point out that it does more damage than anything else in the game, even more than my bow build's burst (which can be dodged/blocked and has shorter range)

I've also taken note of the public sentiment about the ability (and how it affects peoples' opinions of mSorc in general):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424974/which-class-is-overpowered-in-overall-performance/p1

...so I'm not sure I'm the "dumb" one here living in an "imaginary world".


I tell random nobodies to L2P when they refuse to listen to facts (see above) and keep spouting nonsense.

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.


You can't say I'm wrong because I have the facts wrong, so I must be wrong because you feel antagonized. It's really as simple as that.

Not drawing anything. Just using ur own stupid logic. Not that id expect you to understand that tho.

Wait, wut? So now we all have to have the same feelings as you on "unbalanced" issues? And thats logic to you? Dear god, your delusions are really frightening. Just because i dont have an issue with ganking it doesnt mean that it has a counter. A lot of variable come into the mix.

No, you dont get a free kill. Its a free kill only on builds like urs.

My logic? Where did I say you should be required to dodge roll snipes as a magicka build? I specifically stated that you can survive by using shields. Here, in case you have amnesia:

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open

I don't think there's anything dumb in expecting people to live by using their primary defensive stat pool to proactively defend themselves.

And I'd like to see the source of me claiming you should "feel" the same way about me on balance. In fact I specifically stated the opposite:

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.

I know reading is hard for some people but come on.


Also it's funny how the only thing you can refer to are some mysterious "lot of variables" when you claim incorrectly (happy to prove this any time in game vs anyone who wants to try and gank me) that ganking (apart from Overload ganking, which really has no counter due to Rune Cage) has no counters.

If it didn't, everyone would be ganking because due to the nature of stealth in ESO it'd be insanely powerful.

pieratsos wrote: »

A NB with cloak having zero deaths on a potato BG. Hmmmmm. That must prove a lot, especially when u dont even have actual footage but just a screenshot of the score.

Oh, so now you're calling everyone I fight against a potato. What happened to the outrage about me telling people to L2P? There's a word for that, begins with "h".

I'm not in the habit of recording entire BGs to prove a point, so you'll have to do with the one in my build video (25-2-7) to see how survival can be easy on my build as long as there's no Rune Cages (the two deaths are to actual mistakes in positioning/sustain).

pieratsos wrote: »

I didnt defend rune cage. I repeated that about 100 times so far. I hate rune cage since the first day it was introduced. I want it deleted not reworked. Go back and find the comments. Your attempts to tell me how i like rune cage are adorable. Quite funny actually. Stupid non the less.

Then why keep undermining arguments against it with flawed logic & lies?

"I hate Rune Cage, but those who because of it have bad builds" - that's just contradictory.

You're claiming you hate it, but you're not really explaining why and instead opt to come up with bogus excuses for its existence.

pieratsos wrote: »

I mean both ur duel video failing to analyze how streak functions and ur 1vX video dying to "cage". Which wasnt because of cage. A simple flame reach into frags would kill you as well because you couldnt see it. Thats the nature of ur build. Just melts to everything that hits you.

Here's what I said about Streak, on page 2 of this thread:

DDuke wrote:

]

Feanor wrote:

Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.

Yes, it is - it doesn't guarantee one shots but you do get to pressure them (along with Curse procs & possibly pet damage).

If you're good at sorc you could even count the distance right & land right next to that dodge roller with the Streak, throwing out a Frag before they can CC break+dodge roll.

...and I stand by that statement 100%.


As to the 1vX scene, you're wrong. Again.

I cloaked - that Flame Reach (and/or anything else) would've missed & I would've repositioned like I do in 1vX.

Rune Cage is the only non-AoE CC that goes through cloak due to its 1s delay after cast.


The nature of my build against everything but Rune Cage is that it dies if I make a mistake.

pieratsos wrote: »

Analyzing numbers based on builds of ur choice in a controlled environment. Yeah thats definitely the reality of open world.

Yes, guess what: not everyone plays the build you play. Shocker, I know.

You don't balance video games around one or two builds only (that's why threads like this exist), you look for how things can be abused.

By your logic, it'd be fine if stamina builds who built for maximum dmg one shot everyone through shields/dodge roll/block without counterplay as long as more people played sustain builds that didn't possess the capability.


It doesn't work that way.

pieratsos wrote: »

Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc.

Oh, and to what do you base that assumption that everyone who answered to that poll is a "Xv1 zergling" or that they think oblivion dmg is fine? Is there a correlating poll on those issues that I should know about?

Also, if sorcs can 1v30 I'd say those people are probably right.

pieratsos wrote: »

Discuss with you? Kinda hard to do that with ur egotistical attitude. When u cut the crap and stay unbiased without bringing sets in an attempt to balance the class then ill be here. Till then.... oh well. I guess we'll just have to insult each other until ZOS locks the thread or ban us.

Sure, I have an ego. This is not news to me.

Doesn't make me wrong though, so I don't know what the purpose of pointing that out is.

Are you incapable of looking at arguments objectively? 1+1=2, no matter who says it.


Unbiased? I beg to disagree. Here's what I wrote above when last accused of being biased:

Here's a list of things I've suggested over the past few months/years that would hurt my playstyle (note: on stamblade, I play all classes), but make the game better balance-wise:
Give cloak/sneak a visual cue (i.e. faint footprints ppl can follow) so people can find stealthers rather than just guess where they are.
Give cloak a similar "can't cast again" cooldown as channels/casts that get interrupted if cloak gets broken prematurely by damage.
Remove Incap CC or make it like before (health % based). This ability allows NBs to kill people too easily with too little skill required (two button burst: "1. Incap-> 2. Relentless").

...and on the Sorc discord I've also written things like:
"Streak should remove snares/roots similar to DK wings"


I am also going to focus on my mDK next patch, so Rune Cage isn't even that big of an issue (in comparison).


It is to people who play medium armor though, and still will be next patch (cf. math on pages 2/3) if things don't change.

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

1. Your 20k hp squishling dies to any burst as well. You literally die to 2-3 attacks. watch ur videos. they dont even combo u. You just melt.

Of course. I would expect nothing less if I get hit.

I play a build based on avoiding damage, not tanking it (hence why I say Rune Cage is ruining playstyles atm).

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Again, the counterplay to ur combo exists only in terms of people actually seeing you and expecting it. You attack them from stealth. You are ganking them and instakill them to actually avoid giving them counterplay.

Again, proactive defenses. Listening to sound cues (i.e. combat music). Did you just skip everything I wrote?

Times I've died to my own build: 0 (despite being squishy af).

pieratsos wrote: »

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

Yes... when you're out in the open where a bow build can hit you with burst combo and happen to be playing a medium armor dodge roller(lol). When you're not playing a medium armor dodge roller, you keep shields up. Simple.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Never said that overload gank is not gank. It is gank and its also with no counterplay just like any gank. Thats the entire purpose of gank builds.

If "ganking"/stealth oriented builds are such a big issue to you, go make a thread about it. It is not the topic of this one.

pieratsos wrote: »

5. Potatoes that just spam rune cage dont kill anything. They are zerglings and the combination of other people attacking you with that guy rune caging you is what kills you. If you are actually dying to a potato sorc with rune cage you have massive l2p issues. Just like a zergling spamming snipe from 40 meters. Alone he wont kill anything but when people start piling up that zergling spamming snipe will be the reason u die. This is called poor design of skills and snipe is amongst the top conteders when it comes to that.

Even a potato sorc can cast Curse on you & then Rune Cage->Frags. That is the issue with having abilities that require zero skill to operate and disable the only means of survival medium armor builds have available.

On the other hand a good player can easily survive a zergling snipe spammer because while you might not always be able to avoid the first snipe, you always have time to CC Break+Dodge Roll the second (and one non-Asylum snipe alone is 8-10k burst only).


But sure, keep downplaying how overpowered Rune Cage is by comparing it to Snipe lmao.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Focusing on the actual issue? You derailed the thread and telling everyone to l2p with ur biased statements trying to discuss a class you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Someone needs to break it to you. You are not jesus christ and u are not here to save the game. We dont give a flying **** about what you think balance is and ur egotistical attitude trying to balance the entire game around you personally is starting to pissing everyone off.

Based on what I've read in this thread alone, I'm going to have to say I have way more knowledge on the sorc class (despite it not being my most played class) than certain people who seem more interested in attacking me than discussing the topic.

I guess that's what happens when people run out of arguments to defend Rune Cage. Divert the topic, get people to discuss something else so you get to keep your overpowered ability and ruining the game. That's the plan, isn't it?

You can stop pretending you want it balanced, all you want is to get free kills in PvP because you aren't good enough to get kills otherwise.

You dont die to ur build cause no one plays that ***.

So either dodge roll every 1-2s or keep shields up 100% of the time because some dumb-ass plays a ganking build and thinks his build has counterplay. Ok then, u can cloak 100% of the time too. There is ur counterplay.

And now you're drawing false parallels between using primary defense and secondary defense.

Dodge rolling (when in the open) on a stamina build is sustainable, spamming cloak isn't.

And vice versa for magicka builds.


Not that I'd expect you to recognize the difference.

Also, Rune Cage actually stuns people through cloak (if cast before it).

pieratsos wrote: »

Its not about me having an issue with gank builds. Its about just one more of ur dumb biased comments about ur build having counterplay. It doesnt and no matter how u try to convince people that it has it wont change that.

If you don't have a problem with them, why bring them up? Surely if these builds had no counterplay you would have problems with them. Logic, you're allowed to use it.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, potatoes cant time curse cage frag to hit together. That would require them to actually know what they are doing. And only potatoes die to that. So if you are just dying to that ur build is trash defensively and nothing should be balanced around that build. Just because u hate the meta it doesnt make you a special snowflake.

Because pressing 2-3 buttons is so difficult? You don't even need to find an opportune burst window or catch opponent off guard when using Rune Cage, you just get a free kill.

And yes, my build must be "defensively trash" to score like this in a (rare) BG with no sorcs:



...but sure, keep downplaying how disastrous Rune Cage is to build diversity right now and trying to make it about "your build sucks" rather than "Rune Cage is overpowered". The very least you could do is stop pretending you don't like Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Im not comparing it to snipe in terms of which one is the most broken and no i dont want it to get free kills. Keep spinning words to fit them into ur agenda. You are not fooling anyone. Just making urself look more dumb.

Based on this thread you showcased zero knowledge when it comes to the class and u have embarrased urself. You are just living in an imaginary world. You have literally tried to give videos as proof and u couldnt even analyze what was happening in the video. Lmao. You know the dunning kruger effect or whatever the hell its called. Fits perfectly in ur case.

Attacking you instead of discussing the topic? Thats rich coming from someone telling everyone to l2p. I respond in the same way cause its the only language you seem to be able to respond to.

I did analyze the video? If you mean this where I get a kill in a normal 1vX scenario, cloak, get CC'd by Rune Cage through cloak (which you told me to use against RC, lol) and die as I CC break without anything I can do about it.

Or this where I've recorded the most ideal scenarios where you can receive the combo (tanky builds with Impreg etc, all heals & defensive buffs up) and it is still unsurvivable.

I've also analyzed the numbers behind the whole burst to point out that it does more damage than anything else in the game, even more than my bow build's burst (which can be dodged/blocked and has shorter range)

I've also taken note of the public sentiment about the ability (and how it affects peoples' opinions of mSorc in general):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424974/which-class-is-overpowered-in-overall-performance/p1

...so I'm not sure I'm the "dumb" one here living in an "imaginary world".


I tell random nobodies to L2P when they refuse to listen to facts (see above) and keep spouting nonsense.

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.


You can't say I'm wrong because I have the facts wrong, so I must be wrong because you feel antagonized. It's really as simple as that.

Not drawing anything. Just using ur own stupid logic. Not that id expect you to understand that tho.

Wait, wut? So now we all have to have the same feelings as you on "unbalanced" issues? And thats logic to you? Dear god, your delusions are really frightening. Just because i dont have an issue with ganking it doesnt mean that it has a counter. A lot of variable come into the mix.

No, you dont get a free kill. Its a free kill only on builds like urs.

My logic? Where did I say you should be required to dodge roll snipes as a magicka build? I specifically stated that you can survive by using shields. Here, in case you have amnesia:

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open

I don't think there's anything dumb in expecting people to live by using their primary defensive stat pool to proactively defend themselves.

And I'd like to see the source of me claiming you should "feel" the same way about me on balance. In fact I specifically stated the opposite:

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.

I know reading is hard for some people but come on.


Also it's funny how the only thing you can refer to are some mysterious "lot of variables" when you claim incorrectly (happy to prove this any time in game vs anyone who wants to try and gank me) that ganking (apart from Overload ganking, which really has no counter due to Rune Cage) has no counters.

If it didn't, everyone would be ganking because due to the nature of stealth in ESO it'd be insanely powerful.

pieratsos wrote: »

A NB with cloak having zero deaths on a potato BG. Hmmmmm. That must prove a lot, especially when u dont even have actual footage but just a screenshot of the score.

Oh, so now you're calling everyone I fight against a potato. What happened to the outrage about me telling people to L2P? There's a word for that, begins with "h".

I'm not in the habit of recording entire BGs to prove a point, so you'll have to do with the one in my build video (25-2-7) to see how survival can be easy on my build as long as there's no Rune Cages (the two deaths are to actual mistakes in positioning/sustain).

pieratsos wrote: »

I didnt defend rune cage. I repeated that about 100 times so far. I hate rune cage since the first day it was introduced. I want it deleted not reworked. Go back and find the comments. Your attempts to tell me how i like rune cage are adorable. Quite funny actually. Stupid non the less.

Then why keep undermining arguments against it with flawed logic & lies?

"I hate Rune Cage, but those who because of it have bad builds" - that's just contradictory.

You're claiming you hate it, but you're not really explaining why and instead opt to come up with bogus excuses for its existence.

pieratsos wrote: »

I mean both ur duel video failing to analyze how streak functions and ur 1vX video dying to "cage". Which wasnt because of cage. A simple flame reach into frags would kill you as well because you couldnt see it. Thats the nature of ur build. Just melts to everything that hits you.

Here's what I said about Streak, on page 2 of this thread:

DDuke wrote:

]

Feanor wrote:

Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.

Yes, it is - it doesn't guarantee one shots but you do get to pressure them (along with Curse procs & possibly pet damage).

If you're good at sorc you could even count the distance right & land right next to that dodge roller with the Streak, throwing out a Frag before they can CC break+dodge roll.

...and I stand by that statement 100%.


As to the 1vX scene, you're wrong. Again.

I cloaked - that Flame Reach (and/or anything else) would've missed & I would've repositioned like I do in 1vX.

Rune Cage is the only non-AoE CC that goes through cloak due to its 1s delay after cast.


The nature of my build against everything but Rune Cage is that it dies if I make a mistake.

pieratsos wrote: »

Analyzing numbers based on builds of ur choice in a controlled environment. Yeah thats definitely the reality of open world.

Yes, guess what: not everyone plays the build you play. Shocker, I know.

You don't balance video games around one or two builds only (that's why threads like this exist), you look for how things can be abused.

By your logic, it'd be fine if stamina builds who built for maximum dmg one shot everyone through shields/dodge roll/block without counterplay as long as more people played sustain builds that didn't possess the capability.


It doesn't work that way.

pieratsos wrote: »

Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc.

Oh, and to what do you base that assumption that everyone who answered to that poll is a "Xv1 zergling" or that they think oblivion dmg is fine? Is there a correlating poll on those issues that I should know about?

Also, if sorcs can 1v30 I'd say those people are probably right.

pieratsos wrote: »

Discuss with you? Kinda hard to do that with ur egotistical attitude. When u cut the crap and stay unbiased without bringing sets in an attempt to balance the class then ill be here. Till then.... oh well. I guess we'll just have to insult each other until ZOS locks the thread or ban us.

Sure, I have an ego. This is not news to me.

Doesn't make me wrong though, so I don't know what the purpose of pointing that out is.

Are you incapable of looking at arguments objectively? 1+1=2, no matter who says it.


Unbiased? I beg to disagree. Here's what I wrote above when last accused of being biased:

Here's a list of things I've suggested over the past few months/years that would hurt my playstyle (note: on stamblade, I play all classes), but make the game better balance-wise:
Give cloak/sneak a visual cue (i.e. faint footprints ppl can follow) so people can find stealthers rather than just guess where they are.
Give cloak a similar "can't cast again" cooldown as channels/casts that get interrupted if cloak gets broken prematurely by damage.
Remove Incap CC or make it like before (health % based). This ability allows NBs to kill people too easily with too little skill required (two button burst: "1. Incap-> 2. Relentless").

...and on the Sorc discord I've also written things like:
"Streak should remove snares/roots similar to DK wings"


I am also going to focus on my mDK next patch, so Rune Cage isn't even that big of an issue (in comparison).


It is to people who play medium armor though, and still will be next patch (cf. math on pages 2/3) if things don't change.

And i said keeping up 100% of the time shields? Seems like u are the one with amnesia. Yeah i guess the counter to ganks are spamming shields. Gg there. Very fun indeed. lol. Its ok you like math, do them and lets see how easy it is to keep shieldstacking 100% of the time.

Yes, damage shields are the counter to burst for magicka builds and dodge roll is for stamina builds. Who would've thought.

Glad we got that sorted. Any sorc who doesn't keep shields up when there's enemies around is free AP no matter which character I play. If I'm on my DK it's Empowering Chains->Fossilize->Leap - dead shield user. If I'm on my melee stamblade I cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap - dead shield user and so on.

If you don't know there are enemies around, pay attention to the combat music (mentioned earlier). That's how ganks are dealt with and have been since 2014. Could stealth system be improved? Yes. Is it the topic of this thread? Nope.

Only stealth gank you can't avoid is still Overload+Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Feel the same way in terms of moaning about anything u think doesnt have a counter. Not good at comprehending simple texts are you? Its ok, didnt expect you to get it anw.

You are not familiar with nerf sorc threads by every potato right? And you actually believe that its possible to 1v30 and you actually associate urself with those potatoes. Lmao. Seems like all i have to do is just let you talk. No need to even attack you. You are attacking urself with comments like that.

So "nerf sorc" threads have to be by "potatos", but "nerf sloads" & "nerf shield breaker" threads (seems you've commented on pretty much all of them, gj) are from pro players? Yes I know, that's not what you said - but I'm pretty sure it's what you think.

Also I didn't say I agree with all of those "nerf sorc" threads or the shield breaker ones. Here's what I wrote on July 13th:

If someone massively invests in shields, you massively invest in damage - there's no problem getting through anyone's shields in 1v1.

And I didn't say sorcs can 1v30, you did, moments ago:

pieratsos wrote:

So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc

I'm worried man. Go see a doctor, could be serious.

pieratsos wrote: »

Looking at arguments objectively? I can, you are the one that cant cause you are so blinded by that hate or agenda you seem to have to the point where you cant even see it. See, streak vs fear argument on the matter. Maybe ull realize how ridiculously stupid ur arguments are.

What "streak vs fear argument"? You mean how I pointed out that both are balanced CCs if your aim is to pressure target's stamina pool, because they don't guarantee landing entire burst combos on opponents (unless fighting people with slow reaction time)?


I don't think you know what objective means. So far I've seen nothing actually factual (as in backed by math & logic, not feelings) from you, only emotional outbursts.

Calling what someone says stupid without really being able to explain why kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think? If you're not able to understand what I write let me know, I can find simpler phrases to use.

Oh, and the whole "no, u are!" act is kinda childish.


Until you can actually prove me wrong about anything (with facts), I fear this will remain rather circular.

You are no different than the people who thought Miat's was good for the game and defended it with all the emotion and as little facts as you have right now.

Beardimus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

So they undo the thing they did that triggered everyone, and yet everyone is triggered again.

Lol

Well, the thing is that they're also increasing burst damage a lot in this DLC with the Balorgh set and I still don't think the sorc burst is survivable after the Summerset Light Attack & 2H changes.


I know I've said in the past that them adding the dmg to Rune Cage was what broke it, but tbh that's only half true: them adding the dmg exacerbated the already underlying issue that it guarantees the entire sorc burst lands on target (and that damage to the Cage was like adding the +9-10k tooltip to sorc burst).


How are they ever going to add sets that increase burst damage while there's an ability that guarantees burst damage can land?


Imho what they need to do is give this ability a feasible counterplay & keep the damage - or redesign it entirely because it's not only limiting build diversity, it's also limiting itemization.

Lol, too much here to handle seriously I'm afraid. Fully off the grid now.

So for them to introduce OP burst proc sets anyone can use Sorcs need a Nerf. Thats your case? Honestly fella your arguments are getting far fetched now.

And yep I do recall you mentioning the damage being the issue multiple times. 100's in fact. But now you are saying its not the 10k tool tip (lol, im still waiting to see a 5k death recap) ...............right.

So then you suggest putting it back how it was is now not enough due to light attack changes??? Honestly. Don't really know where to start, in short you want sorcs nerfed right? Plain and simple.

Yes, if they want to add more burst to the game there can't be 100% unavoidable CCs that guarantee entire burst combos land (regardless of class) - it's that simple.


They added delays to sets like Selene & Velidreth etc for a reason: to give players a chance to react

But apparently when it comes to sorcs, people don't need a chance to react? No, that's not how it should work.

Oh, also (not 5k RC, but I've been hit by those as well):

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

We're talking about Rune Cage here right now, not Power Lash.

No, we're talking about how you invent new BS reasons each PTS cycle on why some ability or another needs to be dodgeable.

But please, keep talking yourself into a hole. Every post you make just contradicts an earlier one.

So we're at a point where people taking the highest burst damage in the entire game due to an unavoidable CC with a built in delay to guarantee the burst lands before CC break is possible is a "BS reason" to make said CC actually avoidable for skilled players who react to it in time?

Or that medium armor being free AP was a "BS reason" to make Power Lash dodgeable?


L2P and stop crutching on overpowered abilities. Some of us actually care about balance here and look at things objectively (yes, I'm hugely in favour of the Incap nerf for example - a skill I use on my melee medium stamblade).

I love the desperation when the person zerging threads demanding abilities be nerfed to suit his playstyle starts telling others they need to L2P.

Especially when that person is a Stamblade. Lol at you bro. Just lol.

I'm saying that because I believe that really is the problem with people like you.


You want broken abilities that ruin other playstyles because you struggle to kill better players, it's that simple really. Instead of getting more skilled & smarter, you want the game to become less skill oriented & dumber to fit your level of play.

Sad. What kind of a trash DK player QQs about medium armor builds?

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

Ok so its NOT the damage, you just dislike being CCed. Any CC you dont break free from equals death. Blades have had the broke AF Fear for a long run, so that needs to go to?

And lol if you are saying Blade burst requires skill. Two buttons is enough. And how is rune cage press button kill player? Surely the sorc has had to weave up his wards, and press ALL the buttons to make his burst, most probably Including waiting for ultimate to be up.

Oh unless you are talking overload niche gank builds, but then, ahem incap.

Sorry fella your arguments are just confused.

Hey ***. It's getting nerfed yet still the whining continues. Yawn on. It doesn't matter what zos do people will moan about sorcs.

Nerf the bandwagon.

https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

1. Your 20k hp squishling dies to any burst as well. You literally die to 2-3 attacks. watch ur videos. they dont even combo u. You just melt.

Of course. I would expect nothing less if I get hit.

I play a build based on avoiding damage, not tanking it (hence why I say Rune Cage is ruining playstyles atm).

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Again, the counterplay to ur combo exists only in terms of people actually seeing you and expecting it. You attack them from stealth. You are ganking them and instakill them to actually avoid giving them counterplay.

Again, proactive defenses. Listening to sound cues (i.e. combat music). Did you just skip everything I wrote?

Times I've died to my own build: 0 (despite being squishy af).

pieratsos wrote: »

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

Yes... when you're out in the open where a bow build can hit you with burst combo and happen to be playing a medium armor dodge roller(lol). When you're not playing a medium armor dodge roller, you keep shields up. Simple.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Never said that overload gank is not gank. It is gank and its also with no counterplay just like any gank. Thats the entire purpose of gank builds.

If "ganking"/stealth oriented builds are such a big issue to you, go make a thread about it. It is not the topic of this one.

pieratsos wrote: »

5. Potatoes that just spam rune cage dont kill anything. They are zerglings and the combination of other people attacking you with that guy rune caging you is what kills you. If you are actually dying to a potato sorc with rune cage you have massive l2p issues. Just like a zergling spamming snipe from 40 meters. Alone he wont kill anything but when people start piling up that zergling spamming snipe will be the reason u die. This is called poor design of skills and snipe is amongst the top conteders when it comes to that.

Even a potato sorc can cast Curse on you & then Rune Cage->Frags. That is the issue with having abilities that require zero skill to operate and disable the only means of survival medium armor builds have available.

On the other hand a good player can easily survive a zergling snipe spammer because while you might not always be able to avoid the first snipe, you always have time to CC Break+Dodge Roll the second (and one non-Asylum snipe alone is 8-10k burst only).


But sure, keep downplaying how overpowered Rune Cage is by comparing it to Snipe lmao.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Focusing on the actual issue? You derailed the thread and telling everyone to l2p with ur biased statements trying to discuss a class you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Someone needs to break it to you. You are not jesus christ and u are not here to save the game. We dont give a flying **** about what you think balance is and ur egotistical attitude trying to balance the entire game around you personally is starting to pissing everyone off.

Based on what I've read in this thread alone, I'm going to have to say I have way more knowledge on the sorc class (despite it not being my most played class) than certain people who seem more interested in attacking me than discussing the topic.

I guess that's what happens when people run out of arguments to defend Rune Cage. Divert the topic, get people to discuss something else so you get to keep your overpowered ability and ruining the game. That's the plan, isn't it?

You can stop pretending you want it balanced, all you want is to get free kills in PvP because you aren't good enough to get kills otherwise.

You dont die to ur build cause no one plays that ***.

So either dodge roll every 1-2s or keep shields up 100% of the time because some dumb-ass plays a ganking build and thinks his build has counterplay. Ok then, u can cloak 100% of the time too. There is ur counterplay.

And now you're drawing false parallels between using primary defense and secondary defense.

Dodge rolling (when in the open) on a stamina build is sustainable, spamming cloak isn't.

And vice versa for magicka builds.


Not that I'd expect you to recognize the difference.

Also, Rune Cage actually stuns people through cloak (if cast before it).

pieratsos wrote: »

Its not about me having an issue with gank builds. Its about just one more of ur dumb biased comments about ur build having counterplay. It doesnt and no matter how u try to convince people that it has it wont change that.

If you don't have a problem with them, why bring them up? Surely if these builds had no counterplay you would have problems with them. Logic, you're allowed to use it.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, potatoes cant time curse cage frag to hit together. That would require them to actually know what they are doing. And only potatoes die to that. So if you are just dying to that ur build is trash defensively and nothing should be balanced around that build. Just because u hate the meta it doesnt make you a special snowflake.

Because pressing 2-3 buttons is so difficult? You don't even need to find an opportune burst window or catch opponent off guard when using Rune Cage, you just get a free kill.

And yes, my build must be "defensively trash" to score like this in a (rare) BG with no sorcs:



...but sure, keep downplaying how disastrous Rune Cage is to build diversity right now and trying to make it about "your build sucks" rather than "Rune Cage is overpowered". The very least you could do is stop pretending you don't like Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Im not comparing it to snipe in terms of which one is the most broken and no i dont want it to get free kills. Keep spinning words to fit them into ur agenda. You are not fooling anyone. Just making urself look more dumb.

Based on this thread you showcased zero knowledge when it comes to the class and u have embarrased urself. You are just living in an imaginary world. You have literally tried to give videos as proof and u couldnt even analyze what was happening in the video. Lmao. You know the dunning kruger effect or whatever the hell its called. Fits perfectly in ur case.

Attacking you instead of discussing the topic? Thats rich coming from someone telling everyone to l2p. I respond in the same way cause its the only language you seem to be able to respond to.

I did analyze the video? If you mean this where I get a kill in a normal 1vX scenario, cloak, get CC'd by Rune Cage through cloak (which you told me to use against RC, lol) and die as I CC break without anything I can do about it.

Or this where I've recorded the most ideal scenarios where you can receive the combo (tanky builds with Impreg etc, all heals & defensive buffs up) and it is still unsurvivable.

I've also analyzed the numbers behind the whole burst to point out that it does more damage than anything else in the game, even more than my bow build's burst (which can be dodged/blocked and has shorter range)

I've also taken note of the public sentiment about the ability (and how it affects peoples' opinions of mSorc in general):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424974/which-class-is-overpowered-in-overall-performance/p1

...so I'm not sure I'm the "dumb" one here living in an "imaginary world".


I tell random nobodies to L2P when they refuse to listen to facts (see above) and keep spouting nonsense.

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.


You can't say I'm wrong because I have the facts wrong, so I must be wrong because you feel antagonized. It's really as simple as that.

Not drawing anything. Just using ur own stupid logic. Not that id expect you to understand that tho.

Wait, wut? So now we all have to have the same feelings as you on "unbalanced" issues? And thats logic to you? Dear god, your delusions are really frightening. Just because i dont have an issue with ganking it doesnt mean that it has a counter. A lot of variable come into the mix.

No, you dont get a free kill. Its a free kill only on builds like urs.

My logic? Where did I say you should be required to dodge roll snipes as a magicka build? I specifically stated that you can survive by using shields. Here, in case you have amnesia:

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open

I don't think there's anything dumb in expecting people to live by using their primary defensive stat pool to proactively defend themselves.

And I'd like to see the source of me claiming you should "feel" the same way about me on balance. In fact I specifically stated the opposite:

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.

I know reading is hard for some people but come on.


Also it's funny how the only thing you can refer to are some mysterious "lot of variables" when you claim incorrectly (happy to prove this any time in game vs anyone who wants to try and gank me) that ganking (apart from Overload ganking, which really has no counter due to Rune Cage) has no counters.

If it didn't, everyone would be ganking because due to the nature of stealth in ESO it'd be insanely powerful.

pieratsos wrote: »

A NB with cloak having zero deaths on a potato BG. Hmmmmm. That must prove a lot, especially when u dont even have actual footage but just a screenshot of the score.

Oh, so now you're calling everyone I fight against a potato. What happened to the outrage about me telling people to L2P? There's a word for that, begins with "h".

I'm not in the habit of recording entire BGs to prove a point, so you'll have to do with the one in my build video (25-2-7) to see how survival can be easy on my build as long as there's no Rune Cages (the two deaths are to actual mistakes in positioning/sustain).

pieratsos wrote: »

I didnt defend rune cage. I repeated that about 100 times so far. I hate rune cage since the first day it was introduced. I want it deleted not reworked. Go back and find the comments. Your attempts to tell me how i like rune cage are adorable. Quite funny actually. Stupid non the less.

Then why keep undermining arguments against it with flawed logic & lies?

"I hate Rune Cage, but those who because of it have bad builds" - that's just contradictory.

You're claiming you hate it, but you're not really explaining why and instead opt to come up with bogus excuses for its existence.

pieratsos wrote: »

I mean both ur duel video failing to analyze how streak functions and ur 1vX video dying to "cage". Which wasnt because of cage. A simple flame reach into frags would kill you as well because you couldnt see it. Thats the nature of ur build. Just melts to everything that hits you.

Here's what I said about Streak, on page 2 of this thread:

DDuke wrote:

]

Feanor wrote:

Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.

Yes, it is - it doesn't guarantee one shots but you do get to pressure them (along with Curse procs & possibly pet damage).

If you're good at sorc you could even count the distance right & land right next to that dodge roller with the Streak, throwing out a Frag before they can CC break+dodge roll.

...and I stand by that statement 100%.


As to the 1vX scene, you're wrong. Again.

I cloaked - that Flame Reach (and/or anything else) would've missed & I would've repositioned like I do in 1vX.

Rune Cage is the only non-AoE CC that goes through cloak due to its 1s delay after cast.


The nature of my build against everything but Rune Cage is that it dies if I make a mistake.

pieratsos wrote: »

Analyzing numbers based on builds of ur choice in a controlled environment. Yeah thats definitely the reality of open world.

Yes, guess what: not everyone plays the build you play. Shocker, I know.

You don't balance video games around one or two builds only (that's why threads like this exist), you look for how things can be abused.

By your logic, it'd be fine if stamina builds who built for maximum dmg one shot everyone through shields/dodge roll/block without counterplay as long as more people played sustain builds that didn't possess the capability.


It doesn't work that way.

pieratsos wrote: »

Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc.

Oh, and to what do you base that assumption that everyone who answered to that poll is a "Xv1 zergling" or that they think oblivion dmg is fine? Is there a correlating poll on those issues that I should know about?

Also, if sorcs can 1v30 I'd say those people are probably right.

pieratsos wrote: »

Discuss with you? Kinda hard to do that with ur egotistical attitude. When u cut the crap and stay unbiased without bringing sets in an attempt to balance the class then ill be here. Till then.... oh well. I guess we'll just have to insult each other until ZOS locks the thread or ban us.

Sure, I have an ego. This is not news to me.

Doesn't make me wrong though, so I don't know what the purpose of pointing that out is.

Are you incapable of looking at arguments objectively? 1+1=2, no matter who says it.


Unbiased? I beg to disagree. Here's what I wrote above when last accused of being biased:

Here's a list of things I've suggested over the past few months/years that would hurt my playstyle (note: on stamblade, I play all classes), but make the game better balance-wise:
Give cloak/sneak a visual cue (i.e. faint footprints ppl can follow) so people can find stealthers rather than just guess where they are.
Give cloak a similar "can't cast again" cooldown as channels/casts that get interrupted if cloak gets broken prematurely by damage.
Remove Incap CC or make it like before (health % based). This ability allows NBs to kill people too easily with too little skill required (two button burst: "1. Incap-> 2. Relentless").

...and on the Sorc discord I've also written things like:
"Streak should remove snares/roots similar to DK wings"


I am also going to focus on my mDK next patch, so Rune Cage isn't even that big of an issue (in comparison).


It is to people who play medium armor though, and still will be next patch (cf. math on pages 2/3) if things don't change.

And i said keeping up 100% of the time shields? Seems like u are the one with amnesia. Yeah i guess the counter to ganks are spamming shields. Gg there. Very fun indeed. lol. Its ok you like math, do them and lets see how easy it is to keep shieldstacking 100% of the time.

Yes, damage shields are the counter to burst for magicka builds and dodge roll is for stamina builds. Who would've thought.

Glad we got that sorted. Any sorc who doesn't keep shields up when there's enemies around is free AP no matter which character I play. If I'm on my DK it's Empowering Chains->Fossilize->Leap - dead shield user. If I'm on my melee stamblade I cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap - dead shield user and so on.

If you don't know there are enemies around, pay attention to the combat music (mentioned earlier). That's how ganks are dealt with and have been since 2014. Could stealth system be improved? Yes. Is it the topic of this thread? Nope.

Only stealth gank you can't avoid is still Overload+Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Feel the same way in terms of moaning about anything u think doesnt have a counter. Not good at comprehending simple texts are you? Its ok, didnt expect you to get it anw.

You are not familiar with nerf sorc threads by every potato right? And you actually believe that its possible to 1v30 and you actually associate urself with those potatoes. Lmao. Seems like all i have to do is just let you talk. No need to even attack you. You are attacking urself with comments like that.

So "nerf sorc" threads have to be by "potatos", but "nerf sloads" & "nerf shield breaker" threads (seems you've commented on pretty much all of them, gj) are from pro players? Yes I know, that's not what you said - but I'm pretty sure it's what you think.

Also I didn't say I agree with all of those "nerf sorc" threads or the shield breaker ones. Here's what I wrote on July 13th:

If someone massively invests in shields, you massively invest in damage - there's no problem getting through anyone's shields in 1v1.

And I didn't say sorcs can 1v30, you did, moments ago:

pieratsos wrote:

So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc

I'm worried man. Go see a doctor, could be serious.

pieratsos wrote: »

Looking at arguments objectively? I can, you are the one that cant cause you are so blinded by that hate or agenda you seem to have to the point where you cant even see it. See, streak vs fear argument on the matter. Maybe ull realize how ridiculously stupid ur arguments are.

What "streak vs fear argument"? You mean how I pointed out that both are balanced CCs if your aim is to pressure target's stamina pool, because they don't guarantee landing entire burst combos on opponents (unless fighting people with slow reaction time)?


I don't think you know what objective means. So far I've seen nothing actually factual (as in backed by math & logic, not feelings) from you, only emotional outbursts.

Calling what someone says stupid without really being able to explain why kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think? If you're not able to understand what I write let me know, I can find simpler phrases to use.

Oh, and the whole "no, u are!" act is kinda childish.


Until you can actually prove me wrong about anything (with facts), I fear this will remain rather circular.

You are no different than the people who thought Miat's was good for the game and defended it with all the emotion and as little facts as you have right now.

Except its not only when there are enemies around. Ironically even when they are fighting they are still AP pinata for any ganker with half a brain. But yeah ok keep telling urself that instakilling people out of stealth has counters. lol.

It is not possible to burst someone with shields up for a ganker, unless that target refuses to CC break. You don't even touch a sorc's health pool with Asylum Snipe from a max dmg bow build.

Happy to provide math for that if necessary, but consider this: if you can survive full Meteor combo by stacking shields - combo which deals twice the damage of any gank build out there, why would you die to a ganker?

There is no math or logic to back that assessment.

If there's no enemies around, then listen for sound cues (combat music beginning, snipe sound).

If you fail to do that (I've played this game for over 4 years and haven't failed once at that yet) then it's not the end of the world. You can ride back knowing there's a ganker, keep shields up this time, pop a det pot and get revenge.

pieratsos wrote: »

Not all of them but some of them. Enough to skew the results of a poll you are using as a proof. If we are going to use the forums as an argument then NBs should probably be deleted from the game alongside sorcs. Also kinda ironic to talk about me talking in nerf sorc threads. You've devoted ur life in nerf rune cage threads.

I focus on whatever happens to be the biggest issue in the game.

Before it was Miats, then undodgeable Power Lash & now Rune Cage.


And yes, NB is also grossly overpowered on Live (Incap change will help, though I'd prefer they still kept %health based stun & moved the Defile to 120 ulti). Nowhere near sorc levels though, which is why they're the everywhere atm.

pieratsos wrote: »

No i dont think they are pro players, but if you think that oblivion dmg is good, oh well....

Im not the one that told that. I said the potatoes say that crap. Dear god. Its a simple text. Did you skip school or something? Oh no wait, i got this. They kicked you for being too smart for them right? Yeah that must be the reason.

It's literally what you wrote. You didn't write anything about "potatoes saying that" and no offense but I don't expect you to be smart enough to know what a hyperbole is.

pieratsos wrote: »

What streak vs fear. Amnesia again? Let me refresh it for you. "Fear is meh because i cant follow up. If you cant use streak l2p." Now that would be a biased statement if those stuns were equal in terms of landing ur combo. But their difference is so big to the point where u went full potato with that comment.

Sneak & Surprise Attack CC actually require some skill to land similar to Streak, and Fear... well, haven't used it (the Mass Hysteria morph - Trap morph I've played around with) in years because it's meh vs good players who CC break fast & avoid follow-up.

Yes, that's true for my build. It's still used by many NB builds because it works well in 1vX (where you usually don't fight good players). I prefer Cloak->Heavy+SA Stun followed by Incap, because while harder to land it usually guarantees kills even on good players.

That doesn't mean Fear is garbage for everyone (and I've stated this in many other threads/discords discussing the topic).

And guess what, the same goes for Streak.


If one was able to use either Fear or Streak to reliably land entire burst combos even on good players, we'd have the whole "Rune Cage situation" all over again.

I don't see what's so hard to understand.

pieratsos wrote: »

I explained multiple times with actual facts given even from ur own videos. The issue is that you are just spinning everything to fit them in ur agenda and whenever you have no actual answer you are just changing subject. Aka you are biased and nothing can be seen as a fact from someone like you. In fact i dont think ive ever seen you admitting wrong on anything in these forums.

That's because I'm rarely wrong, though there have been times and I always admit my error when there is one.

You claim I'm "spinning" things, but I'm yet to see any actual fact present itself from you. Even now all you have is a vague "I've explained multiple times" (but can't really give any example because uh... reasons).

Come back when you have something substantial like... numbers. I like those.

Make the worst snipe (or melee, up to you) gank build ESO has ever seen and I'll compare it to Rune Cage burst (with or without Rune Cage damage) from a sustain build sorc with Lich back bar, how about that?

While at it, I can also tell you if that gank even touches the sorc's health pool - and then I can count how much health/mitigation that stamina build would need to survive the sorc's burst.


And then you can disregard all the facts when they don't fit your argument and keep raging at me.

We are talking about actual PVP scenarios. Stop **** doing math. Seriously, there are so many variables. Its impossible to do math to prove anything in actual open world scenarios. Just like you fight outnumbered so do sorcs.

"Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc"
I mean, it doesnt take a genius to get it, but then again im not surprised you didnt.

No Duke, hyperbole is a very complex word only for genius people like you. Lmao.

Rarely wrong? Damn, who are you. Teach me masta.

Its really not that hard to understand i know. You called one of them meh and for the other you said l2p. In other words you went full potato when you actually think about what you said.

Didnt spin things? You mean like telling me that im defending or like rune cage cause i dont agree with you?

I did explain. Feel free to go back and actually look. You know the streak discussion. But oh y. Memory issues.

Anw, this is getting really boring, Rune cage cant be balanced in its current form. Dodgeable or not.

DDuke wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

No, because 1.5s is simply not enough time to turn around after a "self root" and land ur combo even if ur opponent doesnt break it. Yes it is very useful, its a good defensive cc and it does pressure roll dodge builds but using it as ur main offensive cc to land ur combos is really not that good because of the way it operates. It can also become extremely costly the more you use it. And yes casting it more than once every 4 seconds is very normal when you rely on it defensively, offensively and for repositioning. Thats simply how streak cc works. Its more of a defensive cc, mobility tool and reveal NBs mechanic. Not a land ur combo cc.

Yet sorcs used it effectively back in the days before RC nonsense (or Master Reach) and still do.

It doesn't let you land your entire freaking burst guaranteed, and that's precisely why it's a balanced CC.


You don't need to land all your burst in a single GCD in order to kill dodge rollers.

DDuke wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

No, its not a l2p issue. Your video of showcasing how broken rune cage can potentially be, does nothing but showing ur own bias. Im sorry but cyrodiil open world is not a bunch of target dummies sitting still waiting for you to land ur combo. Yes rune cage is broken in the way it operates but this fairytale of sorcs running around one shotting everyone with their ridiculously easy combos is just that. A fairytale.

Actually I'm showing a fairly favourable scenario where the victim has all the time in the world to set up defensive buffs & get heals active before the combo lands.

In a regular Cyrodiil scenario where I'm outnumbered it's even easier for sorcs to burst me since I'm likely taking damage from other sources as well and none of those skills can be avoided - and it's not like you can pressure a sorc hiding behind some gap closer & Incap spamming snarebots (especially on a bow build)

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

1. Your 20k hp squishling dies to any burst as well. You literally die to 2-3 attacks. watch ur videos. they dont even combo u. You just melt.

Of course. I would expect nothing less if I get hit.

I play a build based on avoiding damage, not tanking it (hence why I say Rune Cage is ruining playstyles atm).

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Again, the counterplay to ur combo exists only in terms of people actually seeing you and expecting it. You attack them from stealth. You are ganking them and instakill them to actually avoid giving them counterplay.

Again, proactive defenses. Listening to sound cues (i.e. combat music). Did you just skip everything I wrote?

Times I've died to my own build: 0 (despite being squishy af).

pieratsos wrote: »

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

Yes... when you're out in the open where a bow build can hit you with burst combo and happen to be playing a medium armor dodge roller(lol). When you're not playing a medium armor dodge roller, you keep shields up. Simple.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Never said that overload gank is not gank. It is gank and its also with no counterplay just like any gank. Thats the entire purpose of gank builds.

If "ganking"/stealth oriented builds are such a big issue to you, go make a thread about it. It is not the topic of this one.

pieratsos wrote: »

5. Potatoes that just spam rune cage dont kill anything. They are zerglings and the combination of other people attacking you with that guy rune caging you is what kills you. If you are actually dying to a potato sorc with rune cage you have massive l2p issues. Just like a zergling spamming snipe from 40 meters. Alone he wont kill anything but when people start piling up that zergling spamming snipe will be the reason u die. This is called poor design of skills and snipe is amongst the top conteders when it comes to that.

Even a potato sorc can cast Curse on you & then Rune Cage->Frags. That is the issue with having abilities that require zero skill to operate and disable the only means of survival medium armor builds have available.

On the other hand a good player can easily survive a zergling snipe spammer because while you might not always be able to avoid the first snipe, you always have time to CC Break+Dodge Roll the second (and one non-Asylum snipe alone is 8-10k burst only).


But sure, keep downplaying how overpowered Rune Cage is by comparing it to Snipe lmao.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Focusing on the actual issue? You derailed the thread and telling everyone to l2p with ur biased statements trying to discuss a class you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Someone needs to break it to you. You are not jesus christ and u are not here to save the game. We dont give a flying **** about what you think balance is and ur egotistical attitude trying to balance the entire game around you personally is starting to pissing everyone off.

Based on what I've read in this thread alone, I'm going to have to say I have way more knowledge on the sorc class (despite it not being my most played class) than certain people who seem more interested in attacking me than discussing the topic.

I guess that's what happens when people run out of arguments to defend Rune Cage. Divert the topic, get people to discuss something else so you get to keep your overpowered ability and ruining the game. That's the plan, isn't it?

You can stop pretending you want it balanced, all you want is to get free kills in PvP because you aren't good enough to get kills otherwise.

You dont die to ur build cause no one plays that ***.

So either dodge roll every 1-2s or keep shields up 100% of the time because some dumb-ass plays a ganking build and thinks his build has counterplay. Ok then, u can cloak 100% of the time too. There is ur counterplay.

And now you're drawing false parallels between using primary defense and secondary defense.

Dodge rolling (when in the open) on a stamina build is sustainable, spamming cloak isn't.

And vice versa for magicka builds.


Not that I'd expect you to recognize the difference.

Also, Rune Cage actually stuns people through cloak (if cast before it).

pieratsos wrote: »

Its not about me having an issue with gank builds. Its about just one more of ur dumb biased comments about ur build having counterplay. It doesnt and no matter how u try to convince people that it has it wont change that.

If you don't have a problem with them, why bring them up? Surely if these builds had no counterplay you would have problems with them. Logic, you're allowed to use it.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, potatoes cant time curse cage frag to hit together. That would require them to actually know what they are doing. And only potatoes die to that. So if you are just dying to that ur build is trash defensively and nothing should be balanced around that build. Just because u hate the meta it doesnt make you a special snowflake.

Because pressing 2-3 buttons is so difficult? You don't even need to find an opportune burst window or catch opponent off guard when using Rune Cage, you just get a free kill.

And yes, my build must be "defensively trash" to score like this in a (rare) BG with no sorcs:



...but sure, keep downplaying how disastrous Rune Cage is to build diversity right now and trying to make it about "your build sucks" rather than "Rune Cage is overpowered". The very least you could do is stop pretending you don't like Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Im not comparing it to snipe in terms of which one is the most broken and no i dont want it to get free kills. Keep spinning words to fit them into ur agenda. You are not fooling anyone. Just making urself look more dumb.

Based on this thread you showcased zero knowledge when it comes to the class and u have embarrased urself. You are just living in an imaginary world. You have literally tried to give videos as proof and u couldnt even analyze what was happening in the video. Lmao. You know the dunning kruger effect or whatever the hell its called. Fits perfectly in ur case.

Attacking you instead of discussing the topic? Thats rich coming from someone telling everyone to l2p. I respond in the same way cause its the only language you seem to be able to respond to.

I did analyze the video? If you mean this where I get a kill in a normal 1vX scenario, cloak, get CC'd by Rune Cage through cloak (which you told me to use against RC, lol) and die as I CC break without anything I can do about it.

Or this where I've recorded the most ideal scenarios where you can receive the combo (tanky builds with Impreg etc, all heals & defensive buffs up) and it is still unsurvivable.

I've also analyzed the numbers (cf. pages 2 & 3) behind the whole burst to point out that it does more damage than anything else in the game, even more than my bow build's burst (which can be dodged/blocked and has shorter range)

I've also taken note of the public sentiment about the ability (and how it affects peoples' opinions of mSorc in general):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424974/which-class-is-overpowered-in-overall-performance/p1

...so I'm not sure I'm the "dumb" one here living in an "imaginary world".


I tell random nobodies to L2P when they refuse to listen to facts (see above) and keep spouting nonsense. And not that it matters, but I do so only after I've been antagonized with hostile comments from the other party.

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.


You can't say I'm wrong because I have the facts wrong, so I must be wrong because you feel antagonized. It's really as simple as that.


Edit: I don't take it personally btw, I'm used to threads like these... last year the thread on Miats went for over 22 pages because certain individuals (against all math & logic) kept claiming it was good for the game when anyone with critical thinking capabilities could tell why it wasn't. Same thing here, difference context.

"Hey guys look how good I am in my premade BG group with a pocket healer against random pug teams with players who went 0-10"

I'm starting to think you want to be a meme at this point. DPuke, maybe?

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

1. Your 20k hp squishling dies to any burst as well. You literally die to 2-3 attacks. watch ur videos. they dont even combo u. You just melt.

Of course. I would expect nothing less if I get hit.

I play a build based on avoiding damage, not tanking it (hence why I say Rune Cage is ruining playstyles atm).

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Again, the counterplay to ur combo exists only in terms of people actually seeing you and expecting it. You attack them from stealth. You are ganking them and instakill them to actually avoid giving them counterplay.

Again, proactive defenses. Listening to sound cues (i.e. combat music). Did you just skip everything I wrote?

Times I've died to my own build: 0 (despite being squishy af).

pieratsos wrote: »

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

Yes... when you're out in the open where a bow build can hit you with burst combo and happen to be playing a medium armor dodge roller(lol). When you're not playing a medium armor dodge roller, you keep shields up. Simple.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Never said that overload gank is not gank. It is gank and its also with no counterplay just like any gank. Thats the entire purpose of gank builds.

If "ganking"/stealth oriented builds are such a big issue to you, go make a thread about it. It is not the topic of this one.

pieratsos wrote: »

5. Potatoes that just spam rune cage dont kill anything. They are zerglings and the combination of other people attacking you with that guy rune caging you is what kills you. If you are actually dying to a potato sorc with rune cage you have massive l2p issues. Just like a zergling spamming snipe from 40 meters. Alone he wont kill anything but when people start piling up that zergling spamming snipe will be the reason u die. This is called poor design of skills and snipe is amongst the top conteders when it comes to that.

Even a potato sorc can cast Curse on you & then Rune Cage->Frags. That is the issue with having abilities that require zero skill to operate and disable the only means of survival medium armor builds have available.

On the other hand a good player can easily survive a zergling snipe spammer because while you might not always be able to avoid the first snipe, you always have time to CC Break+Dodge Roll the second (and one non-Asylum snipe alone is 8-10k burst only).


But sure, keep downplaying how overpowered Rune Cage is by comparing it to Snipe lmao.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Focusing on the actual issue? You derailed the thread and telling everyone to l2p with ur biased statements trying to discuss a class you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Someone needs to break it to you. You are not jesus christ and u are not here to save the game. We dont give a flying **** about what you think balance is and ur egotistical attitude trying to balance the entire game around you personally is starting to pissing everyone off.

Based on what I've read in this thread alone, I'm going to have to say I have way more knowledge on the sorc class (despite it not being my most played class) than certain people who seem more interested in attacking me than discussing the topic.

I guess that's what happens when people run out of arguments to defend Rune Cage. Divert the topic, get people to discuss something else so you get to keep your overpowered ability and ruining the game. That's the plan, isn't it?

You can stop pretending you want it balanced, all you want is to get free kills in PvP because you aren't good enough to get kills otherwise.

You dont die to ur build cause no one plays that ***.

So either dodge roll every 1-2s or keep shields up 100% of the time because some dumb-ass plays a ganking build and thinks his build has counterplay. Ok then, u can cloak 100% of the time too. There is ur counterplay.

And now you're drawing false parallels between using primary defense and secondary defense.

Dodge rolling (when in the open) on a stamina build is sustainable, spamming cloak isn't.

And vice versa for magicka builds.


Not that I'd expect you to recognize the difference.

Also, Rune Cage actually stuns people through cloak (if cast before it).

pieratsos wrote: »

Its not about me having an issue with gank builds. Its about just one more of ur dumb biased comments about ur build having counterplay. It doesnt and no matter how u try to convince people that it has it wont change that.

If you don't have a problem with them, why bring them up? Surely if these builds had no counterplay you would have problems with them. Logic, you're allowed to use it.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, potatoes cant time curse cage frag to hit together. That would require them to actually know what they are doing. And only potatoes die to that. So if you are just dying to that ur build is trash defensively and nothing should be balanced around that build. Just because u hate the meta it doesnt make you a special snowflake.

Because pressing 2-3 buttons is so difficult? You don't even need to find an opportune burst window or catch opponent off guard when using Rune Cage, you just get a free kill.

And yes, my build must be "defensively trash" to score like this in a (rare) BG with no sorcs:



...but sure, keep downplaying how disastrous Rune Cage is to build diversity right now and trying to make it about "your build sucks" rather than "Rune Cage is overpowered". The very least you could do is stop pretending you don't like Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Im not comparing it to snipe in terms of which one is the most broken and no i dont want it to get free kills. Keep spinning words to fit them into ur agenda. You are not fooling anyone. Just making urself look more dumb.

Based on this thread you showcased zero knowledge when it comes to the class and u have embarrased urself. You are just living in an imaginary world. You have literally tried to give videos as proof and u couldnt even analyze what was happening in the video. Lmao. You know the dunning kruger effect or whatever the hell its called. Fits perfectly in ur case.

Attacking you instead of discussing the topic? Thats rich coming from someone telling everyone to l2p. I respond in the same way cause its the only language you seem to be able to respond to.

I did analyze the video? If you mean this where I get a kill in a normal 1vX scenario, cloak, get CC'd by Rune Cage through cloak (which you told me to use against RC, lol) and die as I CC break without anything I can do about it.

Or this where I've recorded the most ideal scenarios where you can receive the combo (tanky builds with Impreg etc, all heals & defensive buffs up) and it is still unsurvivable.

I've also analyzed the numbers behind the whole burst to point out that it does more damage than anything else in the game, even more than my bow build's burst (which can be dodged/blocked and has shorter range)

I've also taken note of the public sentiment about the ability (and how it affects peoples' opinions of mSorc in general):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424974/which-class-is-overpowered-in-overall-performance/p1

...so I'm not sure I'm the "dumb" one here living in an "imaginary world".


I tell random nobodies to L2P when they refuse to listen to facts (see above) and keep spouting nonsense.

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.


You can't say I'm wrong because I have the facts wrong, so I must be wrong because you feel antagonized. It's really as simple as that.

Not drawing anything. Just using ur own stupid logic. Not that id expect you to understand that tho.

Wait, wut? So now we all have to have the same feelings as you on "unbalanced" issues? And thats logic to you? Dear god, your delusions are really frightening. Just because i dont have an issue with ganking it doesnt mean that it has a counter. A lot of variable come into the mix.

No, you dont get a free kill. Its a free kill only on builds like urs.

My logic? Where did I say you should be required to dodge roll snipes as a magicka build? I specifically stated that you can survive by using shields. Here, in case you have amnesia:

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open

I don't think there's anything dumb in expecting people to live by using their primary defensive stat pool to proactively defend themselves.

And I'd like to see the source of me claiming you should "feel" the same way about me on balance. In fact I specifically stated the opposite:

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.

I know reading is hard for some people but come on.


Also it's funny how the only thing you can refer to are some mysterious "lot of variables" when you claim incorrectly (happy to prove this any time in game vs anyone who wants to try and gank me) that ganking (apart from Overload ganking, which really has no counter due to Rune Cage) has no counters.

If it didn't, everyone would be ganking because due to the nature of stealth in ESO it'd be insanely powerful.

pieratsos wrote: »

A NB with cloak having zero deaths on a potato BG. Hmmmmm. That must prove a lot, especially when u dont even have actual footage but just a screenshot of the score.

Oh, so now you're calling everyone I fight against a potato. What happened to the outrage about me telling people to L2P? There's a word for that, begins with "h".

I'm not in the habit of recording entire BGs to prove a point, so you'll have to do with the one in my build video (25-2-7) to see how survival can be easy on my build as long as there's no Rune Cages (the two deaths are to actual mistakes in positioning/sustain).

pieratsos wrote: »

I didnt defend rune cage. I repeated that about 100 times so far. I hate rune cage since the first day it was introduced. I want it deleted not reworked. Go back and find the comments. Your attempts to tell me how i like rune cage are adorable. Quite funny actually. Stupid non the less.

Then why keep undermining arguments against it with flawed logic & lies?

"I hate Rune Cage, but those who because of it have bad builds" - that's just contradictory.

You're claiming you hate it, but you're not really explaining why and instead opt to come up with bogus excuses for its existence.

pieratsos wrote: »

I mean both ur duel video failing to analyze how streak functions and ur 1vX video dying to "cage". Which wasnt because of cage. A simple flame reach into frags would kill you as well because you couldnt see it. Thats the nature of ur build. Just melts to everything that hits you.

Here's what I said about Streak, on page 2 of this thread:

DDuke wrote:

]

Feanor wrote:

Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.

Yes, it is - it doesn't guarantee one shots but you do get to pressure them (along with Curse procs & possibly pet damage).

If you're good at sorc you could even count the distance right & land right next to that dodge roller with the Streak, throwing out a Frag before they can CC break+dodge roll.

...and I stand by that statement 100%.


As to the 1vX scene, you're wrong. Again.

I cloaked - that Flame Reach (and/or anything else) would've missed & I would've repositioned like I do in 1vX.

Rune Cage is the only non-AoE CC that goes through cloak due to its 1s delay after cast.


The nature of my build against everything but Rune Cage is that it dies if I make a mistake.

pieratsos wrote: »

Analyzing numbers based on builds of ur choice in a controlled environment. Yeah thats definitely the reality of open world.

Yes, guess what: not everyone plays the build you play. Shocker, I know.

You don't balance video games around one or two builds only (that's why threads like this exist), you look for how things can be abused.

By your logic, it'd be fine if stamina builds who built for maximum dmg one shot everyone through shields/dodge roll/block without counterplay as long as more people played sustain builds that didn't possess the capability.


It doesn't work that way.

pieratsos wrote: »

Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc.

Oh, and to what do you base that assumption that everyone who answered to that poll is a "Xv1 zergling" or that they think oblivion dmg is fine? Is there a correlating poll on those issues that I should know about?

Also, if sorcs can 1v30 I'd say those people are probably right.

pieratsos wrote: »

Discuss with you? Kinda hard to do that with ur egotistical attitude. When u cut the crap and stay unbiased without bringing sets in an attempt to balance the class then ill be here. Till then.... oh well. I guess we'll just have to insult each other until ZOS locks the thread or ban us.

Sure, I have an ego. This is not news to me.

Doesn't make me wrong though, so I don't know what the purpose of pointing that out is.

Are you incapable of looking at arguments objectively? 1+1=2, no matter who says it.


Unbiased? I beg to disagree. Here's what I wrote above when last accused of being biased:

Here's a list of things I've suggested over the past few months/years that would hurt my playstyle (note: on stamblade, I play all classes), but make the game better balance-wise:
Give cloak/sneak a visual cue (i.e. faint footprints ppl can follow) so people can find stealthers rather than just guess where they are.
Give cloak a similar "can't cast again" cooldown as channels/casts that get interrupted if cloak gets broken prematurely by damage.
Remove Incap CC or make it like before (health % based). This ability allows NBs to kill people too easily with too little skill required (two button burst: "1. Incap-> 2. Relentless").

...and on the Sorc discord I've also written things like:
"Streak should remove snares/roots similar to DK wings"


I am also going to focus on my mDK next patch, so Rune Cage isn't even that big of an issue (in comparison).


It is to people who play medium armor though, and still will be next patch (cf. math on pages 2/3) if things don't change.

And i said keeping up 100% of the time shields? Seems like u are the one with amnesia. Yeah i guess the counter to ganks are spamming shields. Gg there. Very fun indeed. lol. Its ok you like math, do them and lets see how easy it is to keep shieldstacking 100% of the time.

Yes, damage shields are the counter to burst for magicka builds and dodge roll is for stamina builds. Who would've thought.

Glad we got that sorted. Any sorc who doesn't keep shields up when there's enemies around is free AP no matter which character I play. If I'm on my DK it's Empowering Chains->Fossilize->Leap - dead shield user. If I'm on my melee stamblade I cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap - dead shield user and so on.

If you don't know there are enemies around, pay attention to the combat music (mentioned earlier). That's how ganks are dealt with and have been since 2014. Could stealth system be improved? Yes. Is it the topic of this thread? Nope.

Only stealth gank you can't avoid is still Overload+Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Feel the same way in terms of moaning about anything u think doesnt have a counter. Not good at comprehending simple texts are you? Its ok, didnt expect you to get it anw.

You are not familiar with nerf sorc threads by every potato right? And you actually believe that its possible to 1v30 and you actually associate urself with those potatoes. Lmao. Seems like all i have to do is just let you talk. No need to even attack you. You are attacking urself with comments like that.

So "nerf sorc" threads have to be by "potatos", but "nerf sloads" & "nerf shield breaker" threads (seems you've commented on pretty much all of them, gj) are from pro players? Yes I know, that's not what you said - but I'm pretty sure it's what you think.

Also I didn't say I agree with all of those "nerf sorc" threads or the shield breaker ones. Here's what I wrote on July 13th:

If someone massively invests in shields, you massively invest in damage - there's no problem getting through anyone's shields in 1v1.

And I didn't say sorcs can 1v30, you did, moments ago:

pieratsos wrote:

So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc

I'm worried man. Go see a doctor, could be serious.

pieratsos wrote: »

Looking at arguments objectively? I can, you are the one that cant cause you are so blinded by that hate or agenda you seem to have to the point where you cant even see it. See, streak vs fear argument on the matter. Maybe ull realize how ridiculously stupid ur arguments are.

What "streak vs fear argument"? You mean how I pointed out that both are balanced CCs if your aim is to pressure target's stamina pool, because they don't guarantee landing entire burst combos on opponents (unless fighting people with slow reaction time)?


I don't think you know what objective means. So far I've seen nothing actually factual (as in backed by math & logic, not feelings) from you, only emotional outbursts.

Calling what someone says stupid without really being able to explain why kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think? If you're not able to understand what I write let me know, I can find simpler phrases to use.

Oh, and the whole "no, u are!" act is kinda childish.


Until you can actually prove me wrong about anything (with facts), I fear this will remain rather circular.

You are no different than the people who thought Miat's was good for the game and defended it with all the emotion and as little facts as you have right now.

Except its not only when there are enemies around. Ironically even when they are fighting they are still AP pinata for any ganker with half a brain. But yeah ok keep telling urself that instakilling people out of stealth has counters. lol.

It is not possible to burst someone with shields up for a ganker, unless that target refuses to CC break. You don't even touch a sorc's health pool with Asylum Snipe from a max dmg bow build.

Happy to provide math for that if necessary, but consider this: if you can survive full Meteor combo by stacking shields - combo which deals twice the damage of any gank build out there, why would you die to a ganker?

There is no math or logic to back that assessment.

If there's no enemies around, then listen for sound cues (combat music beginning, snipe sound).

If you fail to do that (I've played this game for over 4 years and haven't failed once at that yet) then it's not the end of the world. You can ride back knowing there's a ganker, keep shields up this time, pop a det pot and get revenge.

pieratsos wrote: »

Not all of them but some of them. Enough to skew the results of a poll you are using as a proof. If we are going to use the forums as an argument then NBs should probably be deleted from the game alongside sorcs. Also kinda ironic to talk about me talking in nerf sorc threads. You've devoted ur life in nerf rune cage threads.

I focus on whatever happens to be the biggest issue in the game.

Before it was Miats, then undodgeable Power Lash & now Rune Cage.


And yes, NB is also grossly overpowered on Live (Incap change will help, though I'd prefer they still kept %health based stun & moved the Defile to 120 ulti). Nowhere near sorc levels though, which is why they're the everywhere atm.

pieratsos wrote: »

No i dont think they are pro players, but if you think that oblivion dmg is good, oh well....

Im not the one that told that. I said the potatoes say that crap. Dear god. Its a simple text. Did you skip school or something? Oh no wait, i got this. They kicked you for being too smart for them right? Yeah that must be the reason.

It's literally what you wrote. You didn't write anything about "potatoes saying that" and no offense but I don't expect you to be smart enough to know what a hyperbole is.

pieratsos wrote: »

What streak vs fear. Amnesia again? Let me refresh it for you. "Fear is meh because i cant follow up. If you cant use streak l2p." Now that would be a biased statement if those stuns were equal in terms of landing ur combo. But their difference is so big to the point where u went full potato with that comment.

Sneak & Surprise Attack CC actually require some skill to land similar to Streak, and Fear... well, haven't used it (the Mass Hysteria morph - Trap morph I've played around with) in years because it's meh vs good players who CC break fast & avoid follow-up.

Yes, that's true for my build. It's still used by many NB builds because it works well in 1vX (where you usually don't fight good players). I prefer Cloak->Heavy+SA Stun followed by Incap, because while harder to land it usually guarantees kills even on good players.

That doesn't mean Fear is garbage for everyone (and I've stated this in many other threads/discords discussing the topic).

And guess what, the same goes for Streak.


If one was able to use either Fear or Streak to reliably land entire burst combos even on good players, we'd have the whole "Rune Cage situation" all over again.

I don't see what's so hard to understand.

pieratsos wrote: »

I explained multiple times with actual facts given even from ur own videos. The issue is that you are just spinning everything to fit them in ur agenda and whenever you have no actual answer you are just changing subject. Aka you are biased and nothing can be seen as a fact from someone like you. In fact i dont think ive ever seen you admitting wrong on anything in these forums.

That's because I'm rarely wrong, though there have been times and I always admit my error when there is one.

You claim I'm "spinning" things, but I'm yet to see any actual fact present itself from you. Even now all you have is a vague "I've explained multiple times" (but can't really give any example because uh... reasons).

Come back when you have something substantial like... numbers. I like those.

Make the worst snipe (or melee, up to you) gank build ESO has ever seen and I'll compare it to Rune Cage burst (with or without Rune Cage damage) from a sustain build sorc with Lich back bar, how about that?

While at it, I can also tell you if that gank even touches the sorc's health pool - and then I can count how much health/mitigation that stamina build would need to survive the sorc's burst.


And then you can disregard all the facts when they don't fit your argument and keep raging at me.

We are talking about actual PVP scenarios. Stop **** doing math. Seriously, there are so many variables. Its impossible to do math to prove anything in actual open world scenarios. Just like you fight outnumbered so do sorcs.

"Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc"
I mean, it doesnt take a genius to get it, but then again im not surprised you didnt.

No Duke, hyperbole is a very complex word only for genius people like you. Lmao.

Rarely wrong? Damn, who are you. Teach me masta.

Its really not that hard to understand i know. You called one of them meh and for the other you said l2p. In other words you went full potato when you actually think about what you said.

Didnt spin things? You mean like telling me that im defending or like rune cage cause i dont agree with you?

I did explain. Feel free to go back and actually look. You know the streak discussion. But oh y. Memory issues.

Anw, this is getting really boring, Rune cage cant be balanced in its current form. Dodgeable or not.

Oh boy.. we're back at page 4 of this thread.

Regarding Streak:

DDuke wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

No, because 1.5s is simply not enough time to turn around after a "self root" and land ur combo even if ur opponent doesnt break it. Yes it is very useful, its a good defensive cc and it does pressure roll dodge builds but using it as ur main offensive cc to land ur combos is really not that good because of the way it operates. It can also become extremely costly the more you use it. And yes casting it more than once every 4 seconds is very normal when you rely on it defensively, offensively and for repositioning. Thats simply how streak cc works. Its more of a defensive cc, mobility tool and reveal NBs mechanic. Not a land ur combo cc.

Yet sorcs used it effectively back in the days before RC nonsense (or Master Reach) and still do.

It doesn't let you land your entire freaking burst guaranteed, and that's precisely why it's a balanced CC.


You don't need to land all your burst in a single GCD in order to kill dodge rollers.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5328607/#Comment_5328607


Regarding "math doesn't matter", "it's not an actual PvP scenario":

DDuke wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

No, its not a l2p issue. Your video of showcasing how broken rune cage can potentially be, does nothing but showing ur own bias. Im sorry but cyrodiil open world is not a bunch of target dummies sitting still waiting for you to land ur combo. Yes rune cage is broken in the way it operates but this fairytale of sorcs running around one shotting everyone with their ridiculously easy combos is just that. A fairytale.

Actually I'm showing a fairly favourable scenario where the victim has all the time in the world to set up defensive buffs & get heals active before the combo lands.

In a regular Cyrodiil scenario where I'm outnumbered it's even easier for sorcs to burst me since I'm likely taking damage from other sources as well and none of those skills can be avoided - and it's not like you can pressure a sorc hiding behind some gap closer & Incap spamming snarebots (especially on a bow build)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5328607/#Comment_5328607

Truth is that Rune Cage is even worse in open world than in a perfectly controlled test environments (where it's also unsurvivable), unless you're outnumbering the sorcerer and it can't cast Rune Cage on you.

Most of the times you don't even see the sorc before you're dead in open world, as can be seen on the video.


Also, not using math to balance skills... yeah, do I need to explain why that is a terrible idea? Why not just slap random numbers at skills and hope for the best? Sheesh.


Like it or not, math is the only concrete thing we have on Rune Cage, the rest is only player feelings about it (which you're probably aware aren't very favourable).


Oh, and the only thing I said about Streak is that it requires skill to utilize effectively (no, it doesn't guaranteed land the entire sorc burst on the player, but it's still good in similar way Fear is: killing slow reacting players and draining stamina).

I don't recall telling people to L2P if they don't get kills with Streak so no idea what that is about.

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

1. Your 20k hp squishling dies to any burst as well. You literally die to 2-3 attacks. watch ur videos. they dont even combo u. You just melt.

Of course. I would expect nothing less if I get hit.

I play a build based on avoiding damage, not tanking it (hence why I say Rune Cage is ruining playstyles atm).

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Again, the counterplay to ur combo exists only in terms of people actually seeing you and expecting it. You attack them from stealth. You are ganking them and instakill them to actually avoid giving them counterplay.

Again, proactive defenses. Listening to sound cues (i.e. combat music). Did you just skip everything I wrote?

Times I've died to my own build: 0 (despite being squishy af).

pieratsos wrote: »

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

Yes... when you're out in the open where a bow build can hit you with burst combo and happen to be playing a medium armor dodge roller(lol). When you're not playing a medium armor dodge roller, you keep shields up. Simple.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Never said that overload gank is not gank. It is gank and its also with no counterplay just like any gank. Thats the entire purpose of gank builds.

If "ganking"/stealth oriented builds are such a big issue to you, go make a thread about it. It is not the topic of this one.

pieratsos wrote: »

5. Potatoes that just spam rune cage dont kill anything. They are zerglings and the combination of other people attacking you with that guy rune caging you is what kills you. If you are actually dying to a potato sorc with rune cage you have massive l2p issues. Just like a zergling spamming snipe from 40 meters. Alone he wont kill anything but when people start piling up that zergling spamming snipe will be the reason u die. This is called poor design of skills and snipe is amongst the top conteders when it comes to that.

Even a potato sorc can cast Curse on you & then Rune Cage->Frags. That is the issue with having abilities that require zero skill to operate and disable the only means of survival medium armor builds have available.

On the other hand a good player can easily survive a zergling snipe spammer because while you might not always be able to avoid the first snipe, you always have time to CC Break+Dodge Roll the second (and one non-Asylum snipe alone is 8-10k burst only).


But sure, keep downplaying how overpowered Rune Cage is by comparing it to Snipe lmao.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Focusing on the actual issue? You derailed the thread and telling everyone to l2p with ur biased statements trying to discuss a class you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Someone needs to break it to you. You are not jesus christ and u are not here to save the game. We dont give a flying **** about what you think balance is and ur egotistical attitude trying to balance the entire game around you personally is starting to pissing everyone off.

Based on what I've read in this thread alone, I'm going to have to say I have way more knowledge on the sorc class (despite it not being my most played class) than certain people who seem more interested in attacking me than discussing the topic.

I guess that's what happens when people run out of arguments to defend Rune Cage. Divert the topic, get people to discuss something else so you get to keep your overpowered ability and ruining the game. That's the plan, isn't it?

You can stop pretending you want it balanced, all you want is to get free kills in PvP because you aren't good enough to get kills otherwise.

You dont die to ur build cause no one plays that ***.

So either dodge roll every 1-2s or keep shields up 100% of the time because some dumb-ass plays a ganking build and thinks his build has counterplay. Ok then, u can cloak 100% of the time too. There is ur counterplay.

And now you're drawing false parallels between using primary defense and secondary defense.

Dodge rolling (when in the open) on a stamina build is sustainable, spamming cloak isn't.

And vice versa for magicka builds.


Not that I'd expect you to recognize the difference.

Also, Rune Cage actually stuns people through cloak (if cast before it).

pieratsos wrote: »

Its not about me having an issue with gank builds. Its about just one more of ur dumb biased comments about ur build having counterplay. It doesnt and no matter how u try to convince people that it has it wont change that.

If you don't have a problem with them, why bring them up? Surely if these builds had no counterplay you would have problems with them. Logic, you're allowed to use it.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, potatoes cant time curse cage frag to hit together. That would require them to actually know what they are doing. And only potatoes die to that. So if you are just dying to that ur build is trash defensively and nothing should be balanced around that build. Just because u hate the meta it doesnt make you a special snowflake.

Because pressing 2-3 buttons is so difficult? You don't even need to find an opportune burst window or catch opponent off guard when using Rune Cage, you just get a free kill.

And yes, my build must be "defensively trash" to score like this in a (rare) BG with no sorcs:



...but sure, keep downplaying how disastrous Rune Cage is to build diversity right now and trying to make it about "your build sucks" rather than "Rune Cage is overpowered". The very least you could do is stop pretending you don't like Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Im not comparing it to snipe in terms of which one is the most broken and no i dont want it to get free kills. Keep spinning words to fit them into ur agenda. You are not fooling anyone. Just making urself look more dumb.

Based on this thread you showcased zero knowledge when it comes to the class and u have embarrased urself. You are just living in an imaginary world. You have literally tried to give videos as proof and u couldnt even analyze what was happening in the video. Lmao. You know the dunning kruger effect or whatever the hell its called. Fits perfectly in ur case.

Attacking you instead of discussing the topic? Thats rich coming from someone telling everyone to l2p. I respond in the same way cause its the only language you seem to be able to respond to.

I did analyze the video? If you mean this where I get a kill in a normal 1vX scenario, cloak, get CC'd by Rune Cage through cloak (which you told me to use against RC, lol) and die as I CC break without anything I can do about it.

Or this where I've recorded the most ideal scenarios where you can receive the combo (tanky builds with Impreg etc, all heals & defensive buffs up) and it is still unsurvivable.

I've also analyzed the numbers behind the whole burst to point out that it does more damage than anything else in the game, even more than my bow build's burst (which can be dodged/blocked and has shorter range)

I've also taken note of the public sentiment about the ability (and how it affects peoples' opinions of mSorc in general):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424974/which-class-is-overpowered-in-overall-performance/p1

...so I'm not sure I'm the "dumb" one here living in an "imaginary world".


I tell random nobodies to L2P when they refuse to listen to facts (see above) and keep spouting nonsense.

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.


You can't say I'm wrong because I have the facts wrong, so I must be wrong because you feel antagonized. It's really as simple as that.

Not drawing anything. Just using ur own stupid logic. Not that id expect you to understand that tho.

Wait, wut? So now we all have to have the same feelings as you on "unbalanced" issues? And thats logic to you? Dear god, your delusions are really frightening. Just because i dont have an issue with ganking it doesnt mean that it has a counter. A lot of variable come into the mix.

No, you dont get a free kill. Its a free kill only on builds like urs.

My logic? Where did I say you should be required to dodge roll snipes as a magicka build? I specifically stated that you can survive by using shields. Here, in case you have amnesia:

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open

I don't think there's anything dumb in expecting people to live by using their primary defensive stat pool to proactively defend themselves.

And I'd like to see the source of me claiming you should "feel" the same way about me on balance. In fact I specifically stated the opposite:

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.

I know reading is hard for some people but come on.


Also it's funny how the only thing you can refer to are some mysterious "lot of variables" when you claim incorrectly (happy to prove this any time in game vs anyone who wants to try and gank me) that ganking (apart from Overload ganking, which really has no counter due to Rune Cage) has no counters.

If it didn't, everyone would be ganking because due to the nature of stealth in ESO it'd be insanely powerful.

pieratsos wrote: »

A NB with cloak having zero deaths on a potato BG. Hmmmmm. That must prove a lot, especially when u dont even have actual footage but just a screenshot of the score.

Oh, so now you're calling everyone I fight against a potato. What happened to the outrage about me telling people to L2P? There's a word for that, begins with "h".

I'm not in the habit of recording entire BGs to prove a point, so you'll have to do with the one in my build video (25-2-7) to see how survival can be easy on my build as long as there's no Rune Cages (the two deaths are to actual mistakes in positioning/sustain).

pieratsos wrote: »

I didnt defend rune cage. I repeated that about 100 times so far. I hate rune cage since the first day it was introduced. I want it deleted not reworked. Go back and find the comments. Your attempts to tell me how i like rune cage are adorable. Quite funny actually. Stupid non the less.

Then why keep undermining arguments against it with flawed logic & lies?

"I hate Rune Cage, but those who because of it have bad builds" - that's just contradictory.

You're claiming you hate it, but you're not really explaining why and instead opt to come up with bogus excuses for its existence.

pieratsos wrote: »

I mean both ur duel video failing to analyze how streak functions and ur 1vX video dying to "cage". Which wasnt because of cage. A simple flame reach into frags would kill you as well because you couldnt see it. Thats the nature of ur build. Just melts to everything that hits you.

Here's what I said about Streak, on page 2 of this thread:

DDuke wrote:

]

Feanor wrote:

Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.

Yes, it is - it doesn't guarantee one shots but you do get to pressure them (along with Curse procs & possibly pet damage).

If you're good at sorc you could even count the distance right & land right next to that dodge roller with the Streak, throwing out a Frag before they can CC break+dodge roll.

...and I stand by that statement 100%.


As to the 1vX scene, you're wrong. Again.

I cloaked - that Flame Reach (and/or anything else) would've missed & I would've repositioned like I do in 1vX.

Rune Cage is the only non-AoE CC that goes through cloak due to its 1s delay after cast.


The nature of my build against everything but Rune Cage is that it dies if I make a mistake.

pieratsos wrote: »

Analyzing numbers based on builds of ur choice in a controlled environment. Yeah thats definitely the reality of open world.

Yes, guess what: not everyone plays the build you play. Shocker, I know.

You don't balance video games around one or two builds only (that's why threads like this exist), you look for how things can be abused.

By your logic, it'd be fine if stamina builds who built for maximum dmg one shot everyone through shields/dodge roll/block without counterplay as long as more people played sustain builds that didn't possess the capability.


It doesn't work that way.

pieratsos wrote: »

Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc.

Oh, and to what do you base that assumption that everyone who answered to that poll is a "Xv1 zergling" or that they think oblivion dmg is fine? Is there a correlating poll on those issues that I should know about?

Also, if sorcs can 1v30 I'd say those people are probably right.

pieratsos wrote: »

Discuss with you? Kinda hard to do that with ur egotistical attitude. When u cut the crap and stay unbiased without bringing sets in an attempt to balance the class then ill be here. Till then.... oh well. I guess we'll just have to insult each other until ZOS locks the thread or ban us.

Sure, I have an ego. This is not news to me.

Doesn't make me wrong though, so I don't know what the purpose of pointing that out is.

Are you incapable of looking at arguments objectively? 1+1=2, no matter who says it.


Unbiased? I beg to disagree. Here's what I wrote above when last accused of being biased:

Here's a list of things I've suggested over the past few months/years that would hurt my playstyle (note: on stamblade, I play all classes), but make the game better balance-wise:
Give cloak/sneak a visual cue (i.e. faint footprints ppl can follow) so people can find stealthers rather than just guess where they are.
Give cloak a similar "can't cast again" cooldown as channels/casts that get interrupted if cloak gets broken prematurely by damage.
Remove Incap CC or make it like before (health % based). This ability allows NBs to kill people too easily with too little skill required (two button burst: "1. Incap-> 2. Relentless").

...and on the Sorc discord I've also written things like:
"Streak should remove snares/roots similar to DK wings"


I am also going to focus on my mDK next patch, so Rune Cage isn't even that big of an issue (in comparison).


It is to people who play medium armor though, and still will be next patch (cf. math on pages 2/3) if things don't change.

And i said keeping up 100% of the time shields? Seems like u are the one with amnesia. Yeah i guess the counter to ganks are spamming shields. Gg there. Very fun indeed. lol. Its ok you like math, do them and lets see how easy it is to keep shieldstacking 100% of the time.

Yes, damage shields are the counter to burst for magicka builds and dodge roll is for stamina builds. Who would've thought.

Glad we got that sorted. Any sorc who doesn't keep shields up when there's enemies around is free AP no matter which character I play. If I'm on my DK it's Empowering Chains->Fossilize->Leap - dead shield user. If I'm on my melee stamblade I cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap - dead shield user and so on.

If you don't know there are enemies around, pay attention to the combat music (mentioned earlier). That's how ganks are dealt with and have been since 2014. Could stealth system be improved? Yes. Is it the topic of this thread? Nope.

Only stealth gank you can't avoid is still Overload+Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Feel the same way in terms of moaning about anything u think doesnt have a counter. Not good at comprehending simple texts are you? Its ok, didnt expect you to get it anw.

You are not familiar with nerf sorc threads by every potato right? And you actually believe that its possible to 1v30 and you actually associate urself with those potatoes. Lmao. Seems like all i have to do is just let you talk. No need to even attack you. You are attacking urself with comments like that.

So "nerf sorc" threads have to be by "potatos", but "nerf sloads" & "nerf shield breaker" threads (seems you've commented on pretty much all of them, gj) are from pro players? Yes I know, that's not what you said - but I'm pretty sure it's what you think.

Also I didn't say I agree with all of those "nerf sorc" threads or the shield breaker ones. Here's what I wrote on July 13th:

If someone massively invests in shields, you massively invest in damage - there's no problem getting through anyone's shields in 1v1.

And I didn't say sorcs can 1v30, you did, moments ago:

pieratsos wrote:

So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc

I'm worried man. Go see a doctor, could be serious.

pieratsos wrote: »

Looking at arguments objectively? I can, you are the one that cant cause you are so blinded by that hate or agenda you seem to have to the point where you cant even see it. See, streak vs fear argument on the matter. Maybe ull realize how ridiculously stupid ur arguments are.

What "streak vs fear argument"? You mean how I pointed out that both are balanced CCs if your aim is to pressure target's stamina pool, because they don't guarantee landing entire burst combos on opponents (unless fighting people with slow reaction time)?


I don't think you know what objective means. So far I've seen nothing actually factual (as in backed by math & logic, not feelings) from you, only emotional outbursts.

Calling what someone says stupid without really being able to explain why kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think? If you're not able to understand what I write let me know, I can find simpler phrases to use.

Oh, and the whole "no, u are!" act is kinda childish.


Until you can actually prove me wrong about anything (with facts), I fear this will remain rather circular.

You are no different than the people who thought Miat's was good for the game and defended it with all the emotion and as little facts as you have right now.

Except its not only when there are enemies around. Ironically even when they are fighting they are still AP pinata for any ganker with half a brain. But yeah ok keep telling urself that instakilling people out of stealth has counters. lol.

It is not possible to burst someone with shields up for a ganker, unless that target refuses to CC break. You don't even touch a sorc's health pool with Asylum Snipe from a max dmg bow build.

Happy to provide math for that if necessary, but consider this: if you can survive full Meteor combo by stacking shields - combo which deals twice the damage of any gank build out there, why would you die to a ganker?

There is no math or logic to back that assessment.

If there's no enemies around, then listen for sound cues (combat music beginning, snipe sound).

If you fail to do that (I've played this game for over 4 years and haven't failed once at that yet) then it's not the end of the world. You can ride back knowing there's a ganker, keep shields up this time, pop a det pot and get revenge.

pieratsos wrote: »

Not all of them but some of them. Enough to skew the results of a poll you are using as a proof. If we are going to use the forums as an argument then NBs should probably be deleted from the game alongside sorcs. Also kinda ironic to talk about me talking in nerf sorc threads. You've devoted ur life in nerf rune cage threads.

I focus on whatever happens to be the biggest issue in the game.

Before it was Miats, then undodgeable Power Lash & now Rune Cage.


And yes, NB is also grossly overpowered on Live (Incap change will help, though I'd prefer they still kept %health based stun & moved the Defile to 120 ulti). Nowhere near sorc levels though, which is why they're the everywhere atm.

pieratsos wrote: »

No i dont think they are pro players, but if you think that oblivion dmg is good, oh well....

Im not the one that told that. I said the potatoes say that crap. Dear god. Its a simple text. Did you skip school or something? Oh no wait, i got this. They kicked you for being too smart for them right? Yeah that must be the reason.

It's literally what you wrote. You didn't write anything about "potatoes saying that" and no offense but I don't expect you to be smart enough to know what a hyperbole is.

pieratsos wrote: »

What streak vs fear. Amnesia again? Let me refresh it for you. "Fear is meh because i cant follow up. If you cant use streak l2p." Now that would be a biased statement if those stuns were equal in terms of landing ur combo. But their difference is so big to the point where u went full potato with that comment.

Sneak & Surprise Attack CC actually require some skill to land similar to Streak, and Fear... well, haven't used it (the Mass Hysteria morph - Trap morph I've played around with) in years because it's meh vs good players who CC break fast & avoid follow-up.

Yes, that's true for my build. It's still used by many NB builds because it works well in 1vX (where you usually don't fight good players). I prefer Cloak->Heavy+SA Stun followed by Incap, because while harder to land it usually guarantees kills even on good players.

That doesn't mean Fear is garbage for everyone (and I've stated this in many other threads/discords discussing the topic).

And guess what, the same goes for Streak.


If one was able to use either Fear or Streak to reliably land entire burst combos even on good players, we'd have the whole "Rune Cage situation" all over again.

I don't see what's so hard to understand.

pieratsos wrote: »

I explained multiple times with actual facts given even from ur own videos. The issue is that you are just spinning everything to fit them in ur agenda and whenever you have no actual answer you are just changing subject. Aka you are biased and nothing can be seen as a fact from someone like you. In fact i dont think ive ever seen you admitting wrong on anything in these forums.

That's because I'm rarely wrong, though there have been times and I always admit my error when there is one.

You claim I'm "spinning" things, but I'm yet to see any actual fact present itself from you. Even now all you have is a vague "I've explained multiple times" (but can't really give any example because uh... reasons).

Come back when you have something substantial like... numbers. I like those.

Make the worst snipe (or melee, up to you) gank build ESO has ever seen and I'll compare it to Rune Cage burst (with or without Rune Cage damage) from a sustain build sorc with Lich back bar, how about that?

While at it, I can also tell you if that gank even touches the sorc's health pool - and then I can count how much health/mitigation that stamina build would need to survive the sorc's burst.


And then you can disregard all the facts when they don't fit your argument and keep raging at me.

We are talking about actual PVP scenarios. Stop **** doing math. Seriously, there are so many variables. Its impossible to do math to prove anything in actual open world scenarios. Just like you fight outnumbered so do sorcs.

"Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc"
I mean, it doesnt take a genius to get it, but then again im not surprised you didnt.

No Duke, hyperbole is a very complex word only for genius people like you. Lmao.

Rarely wrong? Damn, who are you. Teach me masta.

Its really not that hard to understand i know. You called one of them meh and for the other you said l2p. In other words you went full potato when you actually think about what you said.

Didnt spin things? You mean like telling me that im defending or like rune cage cause i dont agree with you?

I did explain. Feel free to go back and actually look. You know the streak discussion. But oh y. Memory issues.

Anw, this is getting really boring, Rune cage cant be balanced in its current form. Dodgeable or not.

Oh boy.. we're back at page 4 of this thread.

Regarding Streak:

DDuke wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

No, because 1.5s is simply not enough time to turn around after a "self root" and land ur combo even if ur opponent doesnt break it. Yes it is very useful, its a good defensive cc and it does pressure roll dodge builds but using it as ur main offensive cc to land ur combos is really not that good because of the way it operates. It can also become extremely costly the more you use it. And yes casting it more than once every 4 seconds is very normal when you rely on it defensively, offensively and for repositioning. Thats simply how streak cc works. Its more of a defensive cc, mobility tool and reveal NBs mechanic. Not a land ur combo cc.

Yet sorcs used it effectively back in the days before RC nonsense (or Master Reach) and still do.

It doesn't let you land your entire freaking burst guaranteed, and that's precisely why it's a balanced CC.


You don't need to land all your burst in a single GCD in order to kill dodge rollers.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5328607/#Comment_5328607


Regarding "math doesn't matter", "it's not an actual PvP scenario":

DDuke wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

No, its not a l2p issue. Your video of showcasing how broken rune cage can potentially be, does nothing but showing ur own bias. Im sorry but cyrodiil open world is not a bunch of target dummies sitting still waiting for you to land ur combo. Yes rune cage is broken in the way it operates but this fairytale of sorcs running around one shotting everyone with their ridiculously easy combos is just that. A fairytale.

Actually I'm showing a fairly favourable scenario where the victim has all the time in the world to set up defensive buffs & get heals active before the combo lands.

In a regular Cyrodiil scenario where I'm outnumbered it's even easier for sorcs to burst me since I'm likely taking damage from other sources as well and none of those skills can be avoided - and it's not like you can pressure a sorc hiding behind some gap closer & Incap spamming snarebots (especially on a bow build)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5328607/#Comment_5328607

Truth is that Rune Cage is even worse in open world than in a perfectly controlled test environments (where it's also unsurvivable), unless you're outnumbering the sorcerer and it can't cast Rune Cage on you.

Most of the times you don't even see the sorc before you're dead in open world, as can be seen on the video.


Also, not using math to balance skills... yeah, do I need to explain why that is a terrible idea? Why not just slap random numbers at skills and hope for the best? Sheesh.


Like it or not, math is the only concrete thing we have on Rune Cage, the rest is only player feelings about it (which you're probably aware aren't very favourable).


Oh, and the only thing I said about Streak is that it requires skill to utilize effectively (no, it doesn't guaranteed land the entire sorc burst on the player, but it's still good in similar way Fear is: killing slow reacting players and draining stamina).

I don't recall telling people to L2P if they don't get kills with Streak so no idea what that is about.

No, sorcs didnt use streak as a main cc to land their combos, they were using frags because of how the cc functions itself making it very hard for you to utilize it even when you completely outplay ur opponent and he is out of stam. Stop beating this dead horse. I explained that in detail by analyzing you the way the sorc was using streak in ur duel. Which was the best case scenario for streak. Against other classes its functionality when it comes to landing ur combos drops severely to almost becoming useless. In fact if you have no use for it as a defensive tool or mobility its a dead skill. Which is why you see sorcs completely dropping it in duels today. But i guess you ignored that cause you are "rarely wrong". If it could be used as a main cc then people wouldnt switch to master destro after frags. Seriously you should stop that discussion and move on. You were wrong get over it. Consider it as one of those rare occassions.

???

Streak was the main CC most sorcs used against me, because I'd just dodge roll all their attempts of throwing a Frag at my face for CC.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5328963/#Comment_5328963

Literally the only instance where I've used the words "main CC".

I never said it was used as main CC vs non-dodge rollers, why would it be?


Also duels... lmao. What happened to "actual PvP scenarios" and "variables"? You can slot/unslot whatever the hell you want in duels on a case by case basis, though I do understand why sorcs don't use Streak there often: medium armor is garbage and dies to first Rune Cage anyways.

pieratsos wrote: »

In a regular scenario when you are outnumbered. Back at everything revolving around you. What happens when the sorc is outnumbered. Thats also open world. Yeah thats right. Using a 5gcd combo while trying to stay alive is not that easy anymore. So you can stop pretending that sorcs run around blowing everyone up whenever they feel like it.

What, so you need overpowered one shot combos because "1vX is hard" on a sorc? What an incredibly biased thing to say.
That. Is. Not. How. Games. Are. Balanced.


There are legitimate sorcerer issues when it comes to 1vX (mobility after snares/roots for instance), but none of that is fixed by letting sorcs one shot people without counterplay willy nilly when they aren't outnumbered and that only creates more problems than it solves.

Also, it's 4 GCDs - not 5 - to deliver higher burst than any other class (i.e. enough to burst non-tanks):
1. LA+Curse
2. LA+Fury
3. LA+Cage
4. LA+Frag

pieratsos wrote: »

Ironically when you are outnumbered rune cage doesnt make much of a difference. You are pissed because you died with cage cc which you are right that it doesnt have a counter but the reality is that you would just die to anything. You have literally just admitted that. Even a reach into frag would kill you from someone you didnt even notice so ur video actually proves nothing at all. The only thing it proves is that you are contender for the most squishy build in cyrodiil which is why i told you that cant even analyze ur own videos.

In my video I would've survived, same as most such scenarios (not all, I'm killable if when I make a mistake).

Anything I can dodge or cloak, I can survive - that's how medium stamblade works. One mistake - (most likely) game over. High risk, high reward. Fun.

Besides, it's possible to CC break a Reach and dodge roll before a Frag lands and hits you, same as all instant cast CCs (you know, ones without 1s delay after cast before they stun you).

pieratsos wrote: »

I didnt say dont use math to balance skills. I said they dont prove anything for an actual open world scenario. Creating scenarios with builds of ur choice and eliminating all variables doesnt prove anything. Thats why ur math dont prove anything. Cause they have no actual relevance when it comes to reality. Without softcaps to actually keep the numbers in check its nearly impossible to find a scenario that remotely represents reality in which you could actually use math. This is why ZOS is struggling so bad with sets and abilities and goes back and nerfs and buffs the same crap every single patch.

Reality is what the numbers show us right now, especially when you can guarantee your burst combo lands.

They show us what is overtuned and what isn't, especially when you cross reference to other burst combos and how much damage they deal/how likely they are to land.


Like if you want to make a strong PvE build, you calculate how much DPS different sets & skills give and then compare it to other setups.

Very much the same is true in PvP, except you don't compare DPS, you compare burst.


In both cases if something is overtuned -> nerf - though in case of PvP you can also balance by making it easier to avoid huge bursts of damage (e.g. Summerset proc set nerfs, removal of sneak attack modifier etc) & I would much rather see ZOS address the Rune Cage issue than nerf sorc damage.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. You did actually say that streak can be used to land ur combos in the proper hands and it was blatantly obvious what you meant with "in the proper hands". Which was what made comment ridiculously stupid considering it came after you called fear meh.

Did I say it could be used to land combos on players (who react fast)? No. Here's what I wrote:

Meanwhile with Streak you can always counter cloak/dodge roll when you're positioned properly, which means it's a huge stam/magicka drain for a stamblade to deal with & when timed properly it can be used to secure a kill.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5327488/#Comment_5327488

Have you never used Streak to reveal a low NB & finish him off with a Fury, or canceled someone's dodge roll with it & landed a frag (or Fury if low health)? Because that happens a lot (and that's a good example of balanced application of CC).