4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.

Oxalias

Time Stop, fossilise, and cage... are all the buggiest and slowest cc's to break free from...

seventyfive

MakoFore wrote: »

its giving a class with so much timed burst - a strong CC thats the issue. if dk had rune- ie. fossilize it wouldnt be a problem, the problem is a class having all the skills- curse, frag, rune, endless fury- and a meteor- all capable of hitting in 1 second window- which is unavoidable- and unhealable. in isolation- rune isnt broken- but on a class that has that much power- it suddenly makes all the difference.

amen

Jsmalls

@DDuke

Should change the title to 4.1.4 Rune cage change is a joke.

No damage AND can be dodged.

Pick one, not both. The ability is useless, and I get to happily take it off my bar now. But MagSorcs are now once again a sub-par class that cannot compete with top tier players when they are of the same skill level.

The class needs to be fixed. I can land an entire 4 GCD burst setup player on a player and have them shrug it off like nothing.

I have NO problem with Rune cage having a counter. But don't make it useless. It's now an ability that only CCs. No debuffs, no self buffs, no roots, and a measly 1k health passive heal. It's useless.

But no one cares about that.
No one cares that damage shields are the worst scaling defense against multiple players.
No one cares that a MagSorc can land an entire burst perfectly and the opponent can walk away unscathed.
No one cares that there are direct hard counters to MagSorcs only form of defense (block, Dodge, and resistance is useless to MagSorcs that depend on damage shields)
No one cares that EVERY class has a direct counter to a MagSorc burst (Wings, Purge, cloak, shimmering shield) two of which are slotted on every build.
No one cares that MagSorcs have been gutted of their mobility through Gap closers and perma roots/snares with no way to cleanse them

What they do care about is MagSorcs being able to kill players though.

That's unacceptable.

Now we need a meteor up, with 500 ultimate, Balorgh slotted, and have to rune cage precisely half a second after we drop a meteor so that the Rune cage either drops their block or forces them into a roll dodge and still get hit by meteor.

So we can only get a kill with our 180 (500) cost ultimate up. Cool.

Stamblades/permarollers are *** laughing though. They literally use the exact same reaction to our burst they've always used. Two seconds after curse is cast roll. Negated the Rune Cage, the frag, the burst, all with one roll. Easy peeezy. Talk about easy mode.

I'll still be out there though.

Came to figure out fury, curse, elemental weapons, and frags can all land at once without Rune Cage slotted

Of course it's EASILY countered, but our burst always has been. Will still land it the moment you make a mistake.

DDuke

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

Should change the title to 4.1.4 Rune cage change is a joke.

No damage AND can be dodged.

Pick one, not both. The ability is useless, and I get to happily take it off my bar now.

You know what, I agree. They should add the damage back now that it is dodgeable (and there was no need to make Defensive Rune as well dodgeable). But you should have stopped there

Jsmalls wrote: »

But MagSorcs are now once again a sub-par class that cannot compete with top tier players when they are of the same skill level.

Wrong on several accounts.

1. Sorcs have never in the history of this game been "sub-par", they've either been the strongest class or within top 2-3. For "sub-par", go play Warden or Templar.
2. How can you determine anyone's "skill level" in this game? Plenty of people are just getting carried by broken bull***. Like Rune Cage for example.

Jsmalls wrote: »

The class needs to be fixed. I can land an entire 4 GCD burst setup player on a player and have them shrug it off like nothing.

If you, as a sorcerer, the class with by far highest burst damage in the game, can land the entire burst combo on a player and that player just "shrugs it off like nothing", then that player would shrug off anything else as well.

Cheesy tank builds are a universal issue, not just a sorc one. I can't count the amount of times I've had to walk the other way because a 30k health mDK flapping wings approaches my bowblade.

Jsmalls wrote: »

I have NO problem with Rune cage having a counter. But don't make it useless. It's now an ability that only CCs. No debuffs, no self buffs, no roots, and a measly 1k health passive heal. It's useless.

That's really all you needed to say, but instead you decided to tag me with all this nonsense.

Jsmalls wrote: »

But no one cares about that.
No one cares that damage shields are the worst scaling defense against multiple players.

I care, I use them on my destro/resto mDK as well as primary defense. But that's how damage shields work - can't have it all. Invest in some well-fitted traits on gear (Impen is a waste) & play cautiously with LOS.

Jsmalls wrote: »

No one cares that a MagSorc can land an entire burst perfectly and the opponent can walk away unscathed.

Same goes for every other class as well when fighting a tank. If your problem is that mSorcs lack sustained pressure (not burst) then say so.

Jsmalls wrote: »

No one cares that there are direct hard counters to MagSorcs only form of defense (block, Dodge, and resistance is useless to MagSorcs that depend on damage shields)

Resistance, sure.

But block/dodge? Far from useless, unless you like getting bursted down/CC'd.

If you use shields as your only defense despite also having the capability to block/dodge roll that's on you.


Also, there are counters to all types of defense: Curse/Piercing Mark/AoE/Det Pots/Radiant Magelight etc etc vs Cloak, Major Defile vs Heals, melee damage/channel abilities vs Reflect etc

Jsmalls wrote: »

No one cares that EVERY class has a direct counter to a MagSorc burst (Wings, Purge, cloak, shimmering shield) two of which are slotted on every build.

Eh, Wings only affects Light Attacks/Frag/Reach (Meteor, Curse & Fury still hit), Purge only removes Curse/Fury & Cloak is broken by Curse and practically unsustainable to use for long vs Sorcs.

What would you have these classes do, just roll over & die when a member of the sorc master race appears?

Jsmalls wrote: »

No one cares that MagSorcs have been gutted of their mobility through Gap closers and perma roots/snares with no way to cleanse them

Hey, something else I agree with. I've already written on the class discord many times that Streak/BoL should remove snares/roots similar to wings.

Jsmalls wrote: »

What they do care about is MagSorcs being able to kill players though.

That's unacceptable.

Without any counterplay, yes. Is it so "unacceptable" though?

Jsmalls wrote: »

Now we need a meteor up, with 500 ultimate, Balorgh slotted, and have to rune cage precisely half a second after we drop a meteor so that the Rune cage either drops their block or forces them into a roll dodge and still get hit by meteor.

So we can only get a kill with our 180 (500) cost ultimate up. Cool.

Oh, god forbid you actually have to go through some effort to get a kill on a good player.

And even that combo can be countered (dodge roll after Meteor prompt dodges Rune Cage->block Meteor - or simply cloak after Curse & block) - otherwise I'd still be complaining about Rune Cage.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Stamblades/permarollers are *** laughing though. They literally use the exact same reaction to our burst they've always used. Two seconds after curse is cast roll. Negated the Rune Cage, the frag, the burst, all with one roll. Easy peeezy. Talk about easy mode.

Yes, they'll roll, they'll take a *** ton of damage from Curse (if cast every 3s, outdamages Vigor heals) and if you catch them with a CC or they run out of stamina, they die.

If you think it's such "easy mode" go play one. Speaking from experience I can say good sorcs have never had problems killing NBs - in fact they've been the best class at killing them for most of this game's lifespan.

Jsmalls wrote: »

I'll still be out there though.

Came to figure out fury, curse, elemental weapons, and frags can all land at once without Rune Cage slotted

Of course it's EASILY countered, but our burst always has been. Will still land it the moment you make a mistake.

Good, that's exactly how it should be. Just like other classes; no guaranteed kills & skill matters.


No idea why you had to make an irrational rant just to come to a rational conclusion.

Feanor

@DDuke

At this point it’s what I figured would happen when I wrote about RC before Summerset. We got the immense QQ, we took the nerf, and there is nothing to compensate. It’s sad really if you think about it.

Jsmalls

"Wrong on several accounts.
Sorcs have never in the history of this game been "sub-par", they've either been the strongest class or within top 2-3. For "sub-par", go play Warden or Templar.
How can you determine anyone's "skill level" in this game? Plenty of people are just getting carried by broken bull***. Like Rune Cage for example."

Is that way for 2-3 patches you saw them nonexistent in competitive dueling tournaments? There were literally separate tournaments for MagSorcs because they were not a competitive class, and any decent player has little to no chance at dying to even a GREAT MagSorc.
I personally thinking competitive dueling tournaments that eliminate *** cheese setups as a great means of testing or determining players skill levels.

"If you, as a sorcerer, the class with by far highest burst damage in the game, can land the entire burst combo on a player and that player just "shrugs it off like nothing", then that player would shrug off anything else as well.

Cheesy tank builds are a universal issue, not just a sorc one. I can't count the amount of times I've had to walk the other way because a 30k health mDK flapping wings approaches my bowblade."

Difference here being other classes have OTHER options. How many times have you gone into Cyrodiil and seen a MagSorc not running Curse, fury, and frag? And base their offensive playstyle around that. No such thing as a DoT build, sustained pressure, hit and run, whatever you want to call it MagSorc. Hell even if we ran these players out of Stamina it would take us 8 seconds (and a lot of luck), TWO full burst combos to even attempt to do enough damage to them to kill them. That's not even regarding the fact that our CCs (Reach and Streak, ignoring RC now because it's trash) last for a measly 1.5-2.5 seconds. Not even enough time to do anything.

That's really all you needed to say, but instead you decided to tag me with all this nonsense.

Nonsense? Legitimate problems are nonsense? Cool.

I care, I use them on my destro/resto mDK as well as primary defense. But that's how damage shields work - can't have it all. Invest in some well-fitted traits on gear (Impen is a waste) & play cautiously with LOS.

Dodge rolling on a Mag character is death. It should only be done in EXTREME scenarios. And if you build your character to synergize with Dodge rolling as a MagSorc (well fitted and stamina Regen) you're gimping your character into smaller damage shields and less Regen/damage elsewhere. Magicka characters aren't built to dodge roll as even a regular forget main defense

Same goes for every other class as well when fighting a tank. If your problem is that mSorcs lack sustained pressure (not burst) then say so.

Let's not make every class a carbon copy. Let MagSorcs be the burst class, I love it. But don't gimp our burst, leave us with a sub-par setup, then have us the king of a gimped burst and say we're viable.

Resistance, sure.

But block/dodge? Far from useless, unless you like getting bursted down/CC'd.

If you use shields as your only defense despite also having the capability to block/dodge roll that's on you.


Also, there are counters to all types of defense: Curse/Piercing Mark/AoE/Det Pots/Radiant Magelight etc etc vs Cloak, Major Defile vs Heals, melee damage/channel abilities vs Reflect etc

Back to the same argument as before.

Dodging does not synergize with damage shields or most magicka classes. If I dodge an attack 4 seconds into my damage shield cool I dodged the damage but my damage shield still expires and I can still be CC'd (more likely to be unable to break) and killed very easily.

Block? You know what I do use it A LOT. And it blocks a CC or big burst to my health, but damage shields still take full damage regardless. More times than not blocking is a waste of stamina because if you either have a damage shield up and it's useless or your health is showing and your risking a fear/fossilize/rune cage and instant death.

So block/dodge does NOT play well with damage shields. I wouldn't expect you to know that because you play a Stamblade. And honestly if you use damage shields on a MagDk you are playing that class soooo wrong and know nothing about a the intricate details of playing a class that DEPENDS on damage shields.

And the counters I was talking about were sloads, shield breaker, and Oblivion damage.

Eh, Wings only affects Light Attacks/Frag/Reach (Meteor, Curse & Fury still hit), Purge only removes Curse/Fury & Cloak is broken by Curse and practically unsustainable to use for long vs Sorcs.

What would you have these classes do, just roll over & die when a member of the sorc master race appears?

Removing sections of a MagSorcs burst removes the entire threat of the burst. Ever try killing a MagDk with Curse and Meteor? That'll do what 15k MAX with crits then they'll laugh at you for the next 5 minutes as you generate ultimate. Or ever try to kill a templar with just frags, light attacks and force pulse? They can heal once every 4-5 GCDs and be chilling. A good mNB/sNB will cloak just the frag/clench, there is no reason to cloak immediately after the curse as it's delayed, and you only need to remove a portion of the burst or the CC to riddle their burst unviable.

And no there should be counters, but let's realize how easy it is to counter a MagSorc, and realize when you die to a MagSorc it's a L2P issue and not because MagSorc OP plz Nerf.

Without any counterplay, yes. Is it so "unacceptable" though?

Too much counterplay is also a bad thing. Rune cage needed a change. Agreed. But they made it useless. Now classes that we stood no chance against we once again don't stand a chance against because we don't have the damage to kill them. 2-4k from rune cage and being able to use Meteor as an ultimate without it being countered brainlessly was very important in enabling a MagSorc to do enough damage when setup correctly.

We don't want easy kills. But we do want to be capable of killing other skilled players in a 1v1. Something we were unable to do 2 patches ago, REGARDLESS of OUR skill level.

Oh, god forbid you actually have to go through some effort to get a kill on a good player.

And even that combo can be countered (dodge roll after Meteor prompt dodges Rune Cage->block Meteor - or simply cloak after Curse & block) - otherwise I'd still be complaining about Rune Cage.

There is a huge difference between some effort and requiring an ultimate to kill a player (especially one that costs 500). Once upon a time ultimates were used when outnumbered, not as a part of regular burst to kill people (ehm Incap).

And I'd laugh if you tried either of those "counters" against me, a dodge roll would immediately be followed up with a streak stunning you, and I'm not sure if cloaking directly counts as a dodge? But if it works like on live Rune cage breaks cloak and the meteor would still hit as Rune cage stuns through cloak due to the one second delay.

Yes, they'll roll, they'll take a *** ton of damage from Curse (if cast every 3s, outdamages Vigor heals) and if you catch them with a CC or they run out of stamina, they die.

If you think it's such "easy mode" go play one. Speaking from experience I can say good sorcs have never had problems killing NBs - in fact they've been the best class at killing them for most of this game's lifespan.

Even if you cast Curse on cooldown you're only doing damage once every 5 GCD.
Cast Curse - 1
First second -2
Second second -3
Third second - 4
Explosion between this GCD and next
Recast- 5

If your Vigor doesn't out heal that I can give you build advice. And yes... If a Stamina Nightblade runs out of stamina they will die... If any class runs out of stamina they will die... Pointless to even bring that up but whatever.

MagSorcs have always been stamina nightblades counters. It's probably why you loathe them soo much. But it doesn't change the fact that a GREAT stamina nightblade can wear out a MagSorc who has to keep their shields up 24/7 regardless of taking damage, and if they slip can be incap surprise attacked for a quick death.

And I don't need to play one, I have friends that I've dueled with countless times, and they'll laugh and say good luck ever landing a frag. Even scrubs know to dodge 2-3 seconds after the curse lololol. Okay permarollers won't let you land anything that'll kill them. Great permarollers don't let you land anything that even hurts. Against a projectile build, especially ones like a MagNB or MagSorc permarollers have a very strong advantage, and with LoS they are borderline impossible to kill. It's just good MagSorcs counter cloak very well so stamblades think they are OP.

Good, that's exactly how it should be. Just like other classes; no guaranteed kills & skill matters.


No idea why you had to make an irrational rant just to come to a rational conclusion.

Of course you're okay with that. You roll 2.5-3 seconds after the curse and never get threaten by a MagSorc. It's easy to counter, especially for a build that relies on Dodge roll (yours). You just like being able to EASILY counter players, unless you think dodge rolling is skillful

bardx86

Jsmalls wrote: »

"Wrong on several accounts.
Sorcs have never in the history of this game been "sub-par", they've either been the strongest class or within top 2-3. For "sub-par", go play Warden or Templar.
How can you determine anyone's "skill level" in this game? Plenty of people are just getting carried by broken bull***. Like Rune Cage for example."

Is that way for 2-3 patches you saw them nonexistent in competitive dueling tournaments? There were literally separate tournaments for MagSorcs because they were not a competitive class, and any decent player has little to no chance at dying to even a GREAT MagSorc.
I personally thinking competitive dueling tournaments that eliminate *** cheese setups as a great means of testing or determining players skill levels.

"If you, as a sorcerer, the class with by far highest burst damage in the game, can land the entire burst combo on a player and that player just "shrugs it off like nothing", then that player would shrug off anything else as well.

Cheesy tank builds are a universal issue, not just a sorc one. I can't count the amount of times I've had to walk the other way because a 30k health mDK flapping wings approaches my bowblade."

Difference here being other classes have OTHER options. How many times have you gone into Cyrodiil and seen a MagSorc not running Curse, fury, and frag? And base their offensive playstyle around that. No such thing as a DoT build, sustained pressure, hit and run, whatever you want to call it MagSorc. Hell even if we ran these players out of Stamina it would take us 8 seconds (and a lot of luck), TWO full burst combos to even attempt to do enough damage to them to kill them. That's not even regarding the fact that our CCs (Reach and Streak, ignoring RC now because it's trash) last for a measly 1.5-2.5 seconds. Not even enough time to do anything.

That's really all you needed to say, but instead you decided to tag me with all this nonsense.

Nonsense? Legitimate problems are nonsense? Cool.

I care, I use them on my destro/resto mDK as well as primary defense. But that's how damage shields work - can't have it all. Invest in some well-fitted traits on gear (Impen is a waste) & play cautiously with LOS.

Dodge rolling on a Mag character is death. It should only be done in EXTREME scenarios. And if you build your character to synergize with Dodge rolling as a MagSorc (well fitted and stamina Regen) you're gimping your character into smaller damage shields and less Regen/damage elsewhere. Magicka characters aren't built to dodge roll as even a regular forget main defense

Same goes for every other class as well when fighting a tank. If your problem is that mSorcs lack sustained pressure (not burst) then say so.

Let's not make every class a carbon copy. Let MagSorcs be the burst class, I love it. But don't gimp our burst, leave us with a sub-par setup, then have us the king of a gimped burst and say we're viable.

Resistance, sure.

But block/dodge? Far from useless, unless you like getting bursted down/CC'd.

If you use shields as your only defense despite also having the capability to block/dodge roll that's on you.


Also, there are counters to all types of defense: Curse/Piercing Mark/AoE/Det Pots/Radiant Magelight etc etc vs Cloak, Major Defile vs Heals, melee damage/channel abilities vs Reflect etc

Back to the same argument as before.

Dodging does not synergize with damage shields or most magicka classes. If I dodge an attack 4 seconds into my damage shield cool I dodged the damage but my damage shield still expires and I can still be CC'd (more likely to be unable to break) and killed very easily.

Block? You know what I do use it A LOT. And it blocks a CC or big burst to my health, but damage shields still take full damage regardless. More times than not blocking is a waste of stamina because if you either have a damage shield up and it's useless or your health is showing and your risking a fear/fossilize/rune cage and instant death.

So block/dodge does NOT play well with damage shields. I wouldn't expect you to know that because you play a Stamblade. And honestly if you use damage shields on a MagDk you are playing that class soooo wrong and know nothing about a the intricate details of playing a class that DEPENDS on damage shields.

And the counters I was talking about were sloads, shield breaker, and Oblivion damage.

Eh, Wings only affects Light Attacks/Frag/Reach (Meteor, Curse & Fury still hit), Purge only removes Curse/Fury & Cloak is broken by Curse and practically unsustainable to use for long vs Sorcs.

What would you have these classes do, just roll over & die when a member of the sorc master race appears?

Removing sections of a MagSorcs burst removes the entire threat of the burst. Ever try killing a MagDk with Curse and Meteor? That'll do what 15k MAX with crits then they'll laugh at you for the next 5 minutes as you generate ultimate. Or ever try to kill a templar with just frags, light attacks and force pulse? They can heal once every 4-5 GCDs and be chilling. A good mNB/sNB will cloak just the frag/clench, there is no reason to cloak immediately after the curse as it's delayed, and you only need to remove a portion of the burst or the CC to riddle their burst unviable.

And no there should be counters, but let's realize how easy it is to counter a MagSorc, and realize when you die to a MagSorc it's a L2P issue and not because MagSorc OP plz Nerf.

Without any counterplay, yes. Is it so "unacceptable" though?

Too much counterplay is also a bad thing. Rune cage needed a change. Agreed. But they made it useless. Now classes that we stood no chance against we once again don't stand a chance against because we don't have the damage to kill them. 2-4k from rune cage and being able to use Meteor as an ultimate without it being countered brainlessly was very important in enabling a MagSorc to do enough damage when setup correctly.

We don't want easy kills. But we do want to be capable of killing other skilled players in a 1v1. Something we were unable to do 2 patches ago, REGARDLESS of OUR skill level.

Oh, god forbid you actually have to go through some effort to get a kill on a good player.

And even that combo can be countered (dodge roll after Meteor prompt dodges Rune Cage->block Meteor - or simply cloak after Curse & block) - otherwise I'd still be complaining about Rune Cage.

There is a huge difference between some effort and requiring an ultimate to kill a player (especially one that costs 500). Once upon a time ultimates were used when outnumbered, not as a part of regular burst to kill people (ehm Incap).

And I'd laugh if you tried either of those "counters" against me, a dodge roll would immediately be followed up with a streak stunning you, and I'm not sure if cloaking directly counts as a dodge? But if it works like on live Rune cage breaks cloak and the meteor would still hit as Rune cage stuns through cloak due to the one second delay.

Yes, they'll roll, they'll take a *** ton of damage from Curse (if cast every 3s, outdamages Vigor heals) and if you catch them with a CC or they run out of stamina, they die.

If you think it's such "easy mode" go play one. Speaking from experience I can say good sorcs have never had problems killing NBs - in fact they've been the best class at killing them for most of this game's lifespan.

Even if you cast Curse on cooldown you're only doing damage once every 5 GCD.
Cast Curse - 1
First second -2
Second second -3
Third second - 4
Explosion between this GCD and next
Recast- 5

If your Vigor doesn't out heal that I can give you build advice. And yes... If a Stamina Nightblade runs out of stamina they will die... If any class runs out of stamina they will die... Pointless to even bring that up but whatever.

MagSorcs have always been stamina nightblades counters. It's probably why you loathe them soo much. But it doesn't change the fact that a GREAT stamina nightblade can wear out a MagSorc who has to keep their shields up 24/7 regardless of taking damage, and if they slip can be incap surprise attacked for a quick death.

And I don't need to play one, I have friends that I've dueled with countless times, and they'll laugh and say good luck ever landing a frag. Even scrubs know to dodge 2-3 seconds after the curse lololol. Okay permarollers won't let you land anything that'll kill them. Great permarollers don't let you land anything that even hurts. Against a projectile build, especially ones like a MagNB or MagSorc permarollers have a very strong advantage, and with LoS they are borderline impossible to kill. It's just good MagSorcs counter cloak very well so stamblades think they are OP.

Good, that's exactly how it should be. Just like other classes; no guaranteed kills & skill matters.


No idea why you had to make an irrational rant just to come to a rational conclusion.

Of course you're okay with that. You roll 2.5-3 seconds after the curse and never get threaten by a MagSorc. It's easy to counter, especially for a build that relies on Dodge roll (yours). You just like being able to EASILY counter players, unless you think dodge rolling is skillful

Nailed it!

DDuke

Jsmalls wrote: »

"Wrong on several accounts.
Sorcs have never in the history of this game been "sub-par", they've either been the strongest class or within top 2-3. For "sub-par", go play Warden or Templar.
How can you determine anyone's "skill level" in this game? Plenty of people are just getting carried by broken bull***. Like Rune Cage for example."

Is that way for 2-3 patches you saw them nonexistent in competitive dueling tournaments? There were literally separate tournaments for MagSorcs because they were not a competitive class, and any decent player has little to no chance at dying to even a GREAT MagSorc.
I personally thinking competitive dueling tournaments that eliminate *** cheese setups as a great means of testing or determining players skill levels.

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Jsmalls wrote: »

"If you, as a sorcerer, the class with by far highest burst damage in the game, can land the entire burst combo on a player and that player just "shrugs it off like nothing", then that player would shrug off anything else as well.

Cheesy tank builds are a universal issue, not just a sorc one. I can't count the amount of times I've had to walk the other way because a 30k health mDK flapping wings approaches my bowblade."

Difference here being other classes have OTHER options. How many times have you gone into Cyrodiil and seen a MagSorc not running Curse, fury, and frag? And base their offensive playstyle around that. No such thing as a DoT build, sustained pressure, hit and run, whatever you want to call it MagSorc. Hell even if we ran these players out of Stamina it would take us 8 seconds (and a lot of luck), TWO full burst combos to even attempt to do enough damage to them to kill them. That's not even regarding the fact that our CCs (Reach and Streak, ignoring RC now because it's trash) last for a measly 1.5-2.5 seconds. Not even enough time to do anything.

So you'd want more build diversity for mSorcs, is that it? Other burst oriented builds have the exact same problems in this tank meta.

If you'd like to play a sustain oriented Sorc I can sympathize with that - I'd really like to try one myself (maybe a melee mSorc with Boundless Storm & mitigation based defense). They'd have to buff certain unutilized sorc skills for that to become a thing though (e.g. Encase, LL, Boundless Storm etc).

Jsmalls wrote: »

That's really all you needed to say, but instead you decided to tag me with all this nonsense.

Nonsense? Legitimate problems are nonsense? Cool.

Yes, precisely - though we may have differing opinions on which problems are "legitimate" and which aren't.

Jsmalls wrote: »

I care, I use them on my destro/resto mDK as well as primary defense. But that's how damage shields work - can't have it all. Invest in some well-fitted traits on gear (Impen is a waste) & play cautiously with LOS.

Dodge rolling on a Mag character is death. It should only be done in EXTREME scenarios. And if you build your character to synergize with Dodge rolling as a MagSorc (well fitted and stamina Regen) you're gimping your character into smaller damage shields and less Regen/damage elsewhere. Magicka characters aren't built to dodge roll as even a regular forget main defense

No one is saying you should be spamming dodge roll, but you certainly should use it tactically (not as main defense!).

And you don't really gimp your character at all by swapping Impen>Well Fitted - you become more vulnerable to burst if you fail to keep shields up but you gain a lot of stam sustain, so it tweaks the "risk vs reward slider" so to speak.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Same goes for every other class as well when fighting a tank. If your problem is that mSorcs lack sustained pressure (not burst) then say so.

Let's not make every class a carbon copy. Let MagSorcs be the burst class, I love it. But don't gimp our burst, leave us with a sub-par setup, then have us the king of a gimped burst and say we're viable.

But your burst is the exact same as before? No, wait - it's actually 7-8k more than before with Balorgh.

The only caveat is that it doesn't land 100% of time anymore.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Resistance, sure.

But block/dodge? Far from useless, unless you like getting bursted down/CC'd.

If you use shields as your only defense despite also having the capability to block/dodge roll that's on you.


Also, there are counters to all types of defense: Curse/Piercing Mark/AoE/Det Pots/Radiant Magelight etc etc vs Cloak, Major Defile vs Heals, melee damage/channel abilities vs Reflect etc

Back to the same argument as before.

Dodging does not synergize with damage shields or most magicka classes. If I dodge an attack 4 seconds into my damage shield cool I dodged the damage but my damage shield still expires and I can still be CC'd (more likely to be unable to break) and killed very easily.

Block? You know what I do use it A LOT. And it blocks a CC or big burst to my health, but damage shields still take full damage regardless. More times than not blocking is a waste of stamina because if you either have a damage shield up and it's useless or your health is showing and your risking a fear/fossilize/rune cage and instant death.

So block/dodge does NOT play well with damage shields. I wouldn't expect you to know that because you play a Stamblade. And honestly if you use damage shields on a MagDk you are playing that class soooo wrong and know nothing about a the intricate details of playing a class that DEPENDS on damage shields.

And the counters I was talking about were sloads, shield breaker, and Oblivion damage.

Block & dodge are very reactionary and skill based defenses for builds with limited sustain, I use both of them on my light armor destro/resto mDK but most of the defense still comes from big Healing Wards combined with Power Lash heals.

Am I "playing the class wrong"? You can judge for yourself: https://youtu.be/9bzFSjz_kMQ

...and that's an old video; the build does much better these days after Combustion changes etc & will be insane next patch with snare/root removing wings.


I don't think there's a "right" and "wrong" way to play a class, nor should there be. I think you've got sorc goggles stuck on your head, because other classes actually do have build diversity and multiple viable playstyles.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Eh, Wings only affects Light Attacks/Frag/Reach (Meteor, Curse & Fury still hit), Purge only removes Curse/Fury & Cloak is broken by Curse and practically unsustainable to use for long vs Sorcs.

What would you have these classes do, just roll over & die when a member of the sorc master race appears?

Removing sections of a MagSorcs burst removes the entire threat of the burst. Ever try killing a MagDk with Curse and Meteor? That'll do what 15k MAX with crits then they'll laugh at you for the next 5 minutes as you generate ultimate. Or ever try to kill a templar with just frags, light attacks and force pulse? They can heal once every 4-5 GCDs and be chilling. A good mNB/sNB will cloak just the frag/clench, there is no reason to cloak immediately after the curse as it's delayed, and you only need to remove a portion of the burst or the CC to riddle their burst unviable.

And no there should be counters, but let's realize how easy it is to counter a MagSorc, and realize when you die to a MagSorc it's a L2P issue and not because MagSorc OP plz Nerf.

You do realize other classes run into the exact same issues? Good luck killing a (good) mDK as bowblade (or anyone with 30k+ health), or a stamblade as a Warden (yeah, zero undodgeable/uncloakable abilities apart from Shalks).

A magplar for instance doesn't "counter" only Sorcs, a single button click gets rid of 4-5 GCD's worth of DoT applications (i.e. gl killing them on a DoT build).

Jsmalls wrote: »

Without any counterplay, yes. Is it so "unacceptable" though?

Too much counterplay is also a bad thing. Rune cage needed a change. Agreed. But they made it useless. Now classes that we stood no chance against we once again don't stand a chance against because we don't have the damage to kill them. 2-4k from rune cage and being able to use Meteor as an ultimate without it being countered brainlessly was very important in enabling a MagSorc to do enough damage when setup correctly.

We don't want easy kills. But we do want to be capable of killing other skilled players in a 1v1. Something we were unable to do 2 patches ago, REGARDLESS of OUR skill level.

And what would those classes be that mSorc "stood no chance against"? I know good EU players who could kill pretty much anyone on a pet sorc in duels. Before Rune Cage.

And since you're so concerned about duels... when did you last see a medium armor build there? I.e. the match ups that are actually affected by the Rune Cage change.


And if you think mSorc can't do well without Cage in 1vX: https://youtu.be/Km37z-QTVYM

Jsmalls wrote: »

Oh, god forbid you actually have to go through some effort to get a kill on a good player.

And even that combo can be countered (dodge roll after Meteor prompt dodges Rune Cage->block Meteor - or simply cloak after Curse & block) - otherwise I'd still be complaining about Rune Cage.

There is a huge difference between some effort and requiring an ultimate to kill a player (especially one that costs 500). Once upon a time ultimates were used when outnumbered, not as a part of regular burst to kill people (ehm Incap).

And I'd laugh if you tried either of those "counters" against me, a dodge roll would immediately be followed up with a streak stunning you, and I'm not sure if cloaking directly counts as a dodge? But if it works like on live Rune cage breaks cloak and the meteor would still hit as Rune cage stuns through cloak due to the one second delay.

Cool, so you have a reaction based way to negate my response to Meteor (though it means I can probably CC Break+Dodge Roll to avoid Frag part of the combo if I'm fast - if not I'm dead). What exactly is the problem?


Gonna have to test how cloak works, but even on live if you cloak fast enough after Meteor (before sorc's GCD is over) you can prevent getting Caged & block the Meteor in cloak.

If you really want to min-max the response you can even jump+block when Meteor lands to prevent taking any damage from the ground AoE (as you'll land beyond it while blocking thanks to the jump's momentum).

Jsmalls wrote: »

Yes, they'll roll, they'll take a *** ton of damage from Curse (if cast every 3s, outdamages Vigor heals) and if you catch them with a CC or they run out of stamina, they die.

If you think it's such "easy mode" go play one. Speaking from experience I can say good sorcs have never had problems killing NBs - in fact they've been the best class at killing them for most of this game's lifespan.

Even if you cast Curse on cooldown you're only doing damage once every 5 GCD.
Cast Curse - 1
First second -2
Second second -3
Third second - 4
Explosion between this GCD and next
Recast- 5

If your Vigor doesn't out heal that I can give you build advice. And yes... If a Stamina Nightblade runs out of stamina they will die... If any class runs out of stamina they will die... Pointless to even bring that up but whatever.

As it happens, stamblades have pretty *** healing.

4k weapon damage & 26,7k stamina in noCP (Marksman Hawk's Eye Asylum Bow) nets me a 12 445/5s tooltip on Vigor.
2,8k spell damage & 46,8k magicka in noCP (Destruction Mastery Necropotence Engine Guardian) nets me a 10 974 tooltip on Curse.

So...
Vigor=2489 per second/2(Battle Spirit)->1244-1866(Crit) healing/second
Curse=3135 per second->(after Battle Spirit+Spell Resistance)1420-2130 dmg/second
^
Curse procs 3,5s after you cast it - and that's how often it can go off because GCD after cast is only 1s.


You can easily negate Vigor heals entirely with Curse alone, atleast when fighting a medium armor dodge roller.

Problems arise when tank sets are present (Impregnable, Brass, Troll King etc etc) - but those are once again universal issues. Just today for example I bursted another medium stamblade to 30%~ health with Asylum Snipe (didn't crit Q.Q) & as I proceeded to spam Bombard he'd just outheal almost all damage with Vigor/Troll King (Vigor alone isn't a problem).

Jsmalls wrote: »

MagSorcs have always been stamina nightblades counters. It's probably why you loathe them soo much. But it doesn't change the fact that a GREAT stamina nightblade can wear out a MagSorc who has to keep their shields up 24/7 regardless of taking damage, and if they slip can be incap surprise attacked for a quick death.

Sure, just as a GREAT mSorc can make sure those shields never drop.

I do run builds capable of getting through shield stacks (Cloak->Heavy Attack+SA Stun->Incap+Selene Proc = adios sorc), (LA+Ballista->LA+PI->Weapon Swap->Lethal Arrow+Acid Spray = ggwp), but I'm always on a timer to kill a sorc since my health pool and stamina pool are limited.

And that's without Rune Cages to just instakill me while I spam dodge rolls to live a little longer.


Someone in a less dmg oriented setup will never ever be able to kill a good mSorc, that'd require a colossal *** up with shields (or sets like Shield Breaker/Sloads). I have almost twice the burst of a regular sustain rollerblade and it's barely enough to get through shields.

Jsmalls wrote: »

And I don't need to play one, I have friends that I've dueled with countless times, and they'll laugh and say good luck ever landing a frag. Even scrubs know to dodge 2-3 seconds after the curse lololol. Okay permarollers won't let you land anything that'll kill them. Great permarollers don't let you land anything that even hurts. Against a projectile build, especially ones like a MagNB or MagSorc permarollers have a very strong advantage, and with LoS they are borderline impossible to kill. It's just good MagSorcs counter cloak very well so stamblades think they are OP.

You probably should play one though - to get some perspective. You have some unrealistic expectations of what a "permaroller" is capable of. I kill these clown builds left & right on my melee zero sustain high dmg stamblade that has no undodgeable damage whatsoever. On bow build even easier (that's thanks to Bombard though).

My maximum dmg mDK has no problems against them (Leap=RIP), it's the high dmg builds I have to worry about because they can actually kill me as well.

Sorc has better tools against dodge than either of those characters.


After all, there's a reason medium armor builds are non-existent in the dueling scene on PC EU and why every PTS there's a "buff medium armor" thread.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Good, that's exactly how it should be. Just like other classes; no guaranteed kills & skill matters.


No idea why you had to make an irrational rant just to come to a rational conclusion.

Of course you're okay with that. You roll 2.5-3 seconds after the curse and never get threaten by a MagSorc. It's easy to counter, especially for a build that relies on Dodge roll (yours). You just like being able to EASILY counter players, unless you think dodge rolling is skillful

I think you have no idea how my build works.

1. I actually can't spam dodge roll like the zero damage sustain builds out there, my melee stamblade has 1,2k stam regen & bowblade has 2k. There's also a stacking cost modifier fyi, similar to Streak (can you spam Streak infinitely?).
2. There's so much undodgeable damage that it is actually necessary to also cloak inbetween & use LOS in order to live.

If you think builds like mine aren't threatened by a mSorc (even without Cage) or that managing stamina for dodge rolls/magicka for cloaks on a high dmg medium armor stam build is easy, then go ahead and play one.

See how wrong you are.

Checkmath

Didnt know that a dodgeable stun is now the worlds end for sorcerer....

just a small reminder, that most people are not capable of dodging re-actively to a certain skill, additionally only medium armor classes will be able to dodge that frequently to avoid the stun. magicka classes can now choose between dodging or getting stunned, both drains a lot of stamina especially in no cp. additionally the mighty combo of meteor and rune cage still is a guaranteed meteor hit, since one stuns when blocking, meanwhile the other when dodging. maybe a tweak in the combo is needed, so that the frag or mages fury also hit with certainty.

and if you disagree that much with me and think that magsorcs are now useless, then bring a decent suggestion, which allows counterplay to the dangerous combo without gutting sorcs.

maboleth

Checkmath wrote: »

just a small reminder, that most people are not capable of dodging re-actively to a certain skill, additionally only medium armor classes will be able to dodge that frequently to avoid the stun.

You answered it yourself. Defensive rune was mostly used against NBs and gankers, also to deplete DKs of stamina.
NBs did break free quite effectively even with the rune cage in the current stage... let alone dodgeable defensive rune.

They dodge everything, so def. rune will only be their 0,5sec annoyance and my 2.7k magicka loss.

Checkmath

maboleth wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

just a small reminder, that most people are not capable of dodging re-actively to a certain skill, additionally only medium armor classes will be able to dodge that frequently to avoid the stun.

You answered it yourself. Defensive rune was mostly used against NBs and gankers, also to deplete DKs of stamina.
NBs did break free quite effectively even with the rune cage in the current stage... let alone dodgeable defensive rune.

They dodge everything, so def. rune will only be their 0,5sec annoyance and my 2.7k magicka loss.

so you cant counter one class anymore and that makes you mad?

Feanor

Checkmath wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

just a small reminder, that most people are not capable of dodging re-actively to a certain skill, additionally only medium armor classes will be able to dodge that frequently to avoid the stun.

You answered it yourself. Defensive rune was mostly used against NBs and gankers, also to deplete DKs of stamina.
NBs did break free quite effectively even with the rune cage in the current stage... let alone dodgeable defensive rune.

They dodge everything, so def. rune will only be their 0,5sec annoyance and my 2.7k magicka loss.

so you cant counter one class anymore and that makes you mad?

It’s not only about stamNBs, although it’s a bit annoying that they get a free pass on the biggest threats to them (Sload’s, RC) while having Incap adjusted in an inconsequential way and still retaining superior mobility and upfront burst. I mean, is buffing the top PvP class further really a bright idea?

The issue is Sorcs are worse off than with CWC. Not only is RC worse, Defensive Rune got trashed too. Yes, Sorcs will be able to kill potatoes just fine still. Like always. But that’s not what you balance around.

Besides, Sorc diversity isn’t any better either. It’s just back to square 1. ZOS gave Sorcs an undodgeable and unblockable CC because even they saw that highly telegraphed burst doesn’t cut it these days. Sadly the caved to the immense QQ and now Sorcs are left without the damage and the CC options ZOS provided. I mean, if even @DDuke agrees that it was an overnerf. And no,equipping Balorgh is not a solution that solves the class problem.

maboleth

Who's mad? )) I'm only displeased, that's all. Defensive rune was best used against that class. It saved your butt from gankers and NB combo-bitters. It lost the point now and makes no sense. Nobody complained about it and shouldn't be collateral with rune cage.

Checkmath

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

Strider__Roshin

Checkmath wrote: »

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

Rune Cage needs to be blockable and dodgeable. Defensive Rune needs to be undodgeable and unblockable.

Feanor

Checkmath wrote: »

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

There are several routes one could go, and there have been suggestions by better players than I am (@Derra for example).

What I would find interesting is turning the damage into a DoT while keeping it undodgeable and unblockable. Shorten the animation so that it is as short as other instant cast abilities, for example Negate. Speed up travel time.

Another idea would be a debuff or a self buff as a secondary effect. Anything really. Defensive Rune should stay as it was in CWC.

Derra

Checkmath wrote: »

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

Did defensive rune really need the counterplay? It´s not controllable and buggy (all pets even non ccable ones trigger it). It also never had counterplay in the past 2.5 years and wasn´t vastly used and basically never complained about. Why even touch it?

I think the offensive version isn´t balanceable with the sorc toolkit - because sorc already utilizes 4 offensive spells and to sacrifice another slot for anything that doesn´t add sustained pressure (aka dots) the ability has to be OP to be put on already cluttered bars.

Personally i´d have gone the route of bringing back frags cc and making defensive rune base ability with two different morph choices (debuff and dmg option?).

Or what feanor said - though i´m currently unsure if having unavoidable cc on sorc isn´t broken per se. It doesn´t fit the classes design with delayed burst.

Mureel

maboleth wrote: »

Who's mad? )) I'm only displeased, that's all. Defensive rune was best used against that class. It saved your butt from gankers and NB combo-bitters. It lost the point now and makes no sense. Nobody complained about it and shouldn't be collateral with rune cage.

Maybe that was a mistake?

I've been wondering.

Checkmath

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

Daus wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

Rune Cage needs to be blockable and dodgeable. Defensive Rune needs to be undodgeable and unblockable.

that would make rune cage even more useless, while defending rune stays as before....

Feanor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

There are several routes one could go, and there have been suggestions by better players than I am (@Derra for example).

What I would find interesting is turning the damage into a DoT while keeping it undodgeable and unblockable. Shorten the animation so that it is as short as other instant cast abilities, for example Negate. Speed up travel time.

Another idea would be a debuff or a self buff as a secondary effect. Anything really. Defensive Rune should stay as it was in CWC.

but people didnt like rune cage, because it was undodgeable and unblockable, leading to that combo with aligned damage without any counterplay. only way to make this viable is that break free actually works and that the travel time allows a short window to break free and block the aligned damage. otherwise its still "eat that meteor, curse, frag and mages fury" without any chance to really avoid it (leaving the only opportunity of a counter-stun before sorc hits rune cage).

Feanor

@Derra

I don’t think it’s broken within Sorcs toolkit per se. If you tweak animation speeds - by the way for Meteor as well, it hardly hits outside a stun scenario - you can achieve a lesser synergy without trashing the skills as such. The culprit is that the RC animation no longer fits the changed functionality of the skill. Sorc animations generally tend to be on the slower side of things, although not Templar channel slow. Speeding these up would also lower burst potential as you would have to time perfectly with less leeway.

Checkmath

Derra wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

Did defensive rune really need the counterplay? It´s not controllable and buggy (all pets even non ccable ones trigger it). It also never had counterplay in the past 2.5 years and wasn´t vastly used and basically never complained about. Why even touch it?

I think the offensive version isn´t balanceable with the sorc toolkit - because sorc already utilizes 4 offensive spells and to sacrifice another slot for anything that doesn´t add sustained pressure (aka dots) the ability has to be OP to be put on already cluttered bars.

Personally i´d have gone the route of bringing back frags cc and making defensive rune base ability with two different morph choices (debuff and dmg option?).

Or what feanor said - though i´m currently unsure if having unavoidable cc on sorc isn´t broken per se. It doesn´t fit the classes design with delayed burst.

when i was talking about counterplay, i meant counterplay to rune cage and not to defensive rune, since that one isnt controllable by the sorc itself.

Feanor

@Checkmath

See above. RC is like a projectile now, and Wrobel has stated they want to give it a better visual. If the projectile speed was fast and you could CC break instantly instead of having to wait for the cast animation to finish - I think that would be sufficient even if it were undodgeable and unblockable.

If you speed up the Meteor animation too you can find a point where only a perfectly timed use guarantees a hit. That would be the solution to me, and it would also make Meteor better outside CC scenarios. Without a CC it’s a waste of ultimate right now.

Derra

Checkmath wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

Did defensive rune really need the counterplay? It´s not controllable and buggy (all pets even non ccable ones trigger it). It also never had counterplay in the past 2.5 years and wasn´t vastly used and basically never complained about. Why even touch it?

I think the offensive version isn´t balanceable with the sorc toolkit - because sorc already utilizes 4 offensive spells and to sacrifice another slot for anything that doesn´t add sustained pressure (aka dots) the ability has to be OP to be put on already cluttered bars.

Personally i´d have gone the route of bringing back frags cc and making defensive rune base ability with two different morph choices (debuff and dmg option?).

Or what feanor said - though i´m currently unsure if having unavoidable cc on sorc isn´t broken per se. It doesn´t fit the classes design with delayed burst.

when i was talking about counterplay, i meant counterplay to rune cage and not to defensive rune, since that one isnt controllable by the sorc itself.

I think it´s not possible to have counterplay and have the ability be used.
It´s not going to work with the current sorc toolkit and how the class is played.

There is no room to slot a fifth skill (that only ccs with counterplay) for sorcs.
The class has at best 2 flexible skillslots on competetive open world builds (hardened, healing, bolt, darkdeal, curse, fury, frags, spammable are set).
And that´s with me counting harness as flexible (it´s not really because it outperforms all alternatives by a mile - like summerset cage).
And masterreach as spammable removing the need for dedicated cc skill (which makes another counterable cc obsolete but giving you one ability slot).

The skill isn´t balanceable in the grand scheme of things where it has a state where its used but has (reasonable) counterplay to it.
The changes feanor mentions would work to balance it 1v1 but it would still be broken 1vX or XvX due to being ranged and uncounterable (pre SS cage basically).

The skill does not work. It´s borked and the only way to have it used is for it to be so grossly op that people prefer it over ANY alternative for the one skillslot they can slot it in.

BalticBlues

Feanor wrote: »

RC is like a projectile now, and Wrobel has stated they want to give it a better visual.

Rune Cage is completely worthless now against NB gankers.
NBs as the most powerful and populated PvP class really needed more mollycoddling?
For balancing, NBs "Aspect of Terror" now also needs to become a dodgeable projectile.

Checkmath

@Derra
So what you mean is that only a OP rune cage will be ever used. if there is a nerf in any way making it less OP, it will only be a zerg tool and not more.

@Feanor
your suggestion would only work, when rune cage couldnt be timed as good as before. atm the animation almost is around 1 sec, so casted 2 secs after curse will make it land perfectly with curse. if a meteor was casted in between, then the meteor would come down around half a sec afterwards. a frag casted 1 sec after rune cage would hit around when the meteor hits. atm everything lands in that 1 second after the enemy was stunned and due to the broken animation breaking free isnt possible and makes you eat all of it.
so your suggestion would be only fair, if there is time to break free and block the meteor and the frag.
if the skill would have a much shorter casttime and would be instant, that only would lead to rune cage being casted one second later and the frag or fury before it (so instead of curse, meteor, rune cage, frag it would be curse, meteor, frag, rune cage) and again everything would hit at the same time.

Feanor

@Checkmath

You could dodge the Frags and the fury and break free from RC in that case.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Mirrrr

Cant we just nerf every class so we can only do light and heavy attacks in pvp. No skills no drama.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.