Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

We're talking about Rune Cage here right now, not Power Lash.

No, we're talking about how you invent new BS reasons each PTS cycle on why some ability or another needs to be dodgeable.

But please, keep talking yourself into a hole. Every post you make just contradicts an earlier one.

So we're at a point where people taking the highest burst damage in the entire game due to an unavoidable CC with a built in delay to guarantee the burst lands before CC break is possible is a "BS reason" to make said CC actually avoidable for skilled players who react to it in time?

Or that medium armor being free AP was a "BS reason" to make Power Lash dodgeable?


L2P and stop crutching on overpowered abilities. Some of us actually care about balance here and look at things objectively (yes, I'm hugely in favour of the Incap nerf for example - a skill I use on my melee medium stamblade).

I love the desperation when the person zerging threads demanding abilities be nerfed to suit his playstyle starts telling others they need to L2P.

Especially when that person is a Stamblade. Lol at you bro. Just lol.

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

We're talking about Rune Cage here right now, not Power Lash.

No, we're talking about how you invent new BS reasons each PTS cycle on why some ability or another needs to be dodgeable.

But please, keep talking yourself into a hole. Every post you make just contradicts an earlier one.

So we're at a point where people taking the highest burst damage in the entire game due to an unavoidable CC with a built in delay to guarantee the burst lands before CC break is possible is a "BS reason" to make said CC actually avoidable for skilled players who react to it in time?

Or that medium armor being free AP was a "BS reason" to make Power Lash dodgeable?


L2P and stop crutching on overpowered abilities. Some of us actually care about balance here and look at things objectively (yes, I'm hugely in favour of the Incap nerf for example - a skill I use on my melee medium stamblade).

I love the desperation when the person zerging threads demanding abilities be nerfed to suit his playstyle starts telling others they need to L2P.

Especially when that person is a Stamblade. Lol at you bro. Just lol.

I'm saying that because I believe that really is the problem with people like you.


You want broken abilities that ruin other playstyles because you struggle to kill better players, it's that simple really. Instead of getting more skilled & smarter, you want the game to become less skill oriented & dumber to fit your level of play.

Sad. What kind of a trash DK player QQs about medium armor builds?

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

@DDuke

Wait what lol

Idk about PC but the worst players Xbox NA do nothing but use snipe and stealth. Then they get burst by one combo because they don't really know how to play the game. Snipe was a potatoes go to ability long before Rune Cage was lol

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

1. Your 20k hp squishling dies to any burst as well. You literally die to 2-3 attacks. watch ur videos. they dont even combo u. You just melt.

Of course. I would expect nothing less if I get hit.

I play a build based on avoiding damage, not tanking it (hence why I say Rune Cage is ruining playstyles atm).

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Again, the counterplay to ur combo exists only in terms of people actually seeing you and expecting it. You attack them from stealth. You are ganking them and instakill them to actually avoid giving them counterplay.

Again, proactive defenses. Listening to sound cues (i.e. combat music). Did you just skip everything I wrote?

Times I've died to my own build: 0 (despite being squishy af).

pieratsos wrote: »

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

Yes... when you're out in the open where a bow build can hit you with burst combo and happen to be playing a medium armor dodge roller(lol). When you're not playing a medium armor dodge roller, you keep shields up. Simple.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Never said that overload gank is not gank. It is gank and its also with no counterplay just like any gank. Thats the entire purpose of gank builds.

If "ganking"/stealth oriented builds are such a big issue to you, go make a thread about it. It is not the topic of this one.

pieratsos wrote: »

5. Potatoes that just spam rune cage dont kill anything. They are zerglings and the combination of other people attacking you with that guy rune caging you is what kills you. If you are actually dying to a potato sorc with rune cage you have massive l2p issues. Just like a zergling spamming snipe from 40 meters. Alone he wont kill anything but when people start piling up that zergling spamming snipe will be the reason u die. This is called poor design of skills and snipe is amongst the top conteders when it comes to that.

Even a potato sorc can cast Curse on you & then Rune Cage->Frags. That is the issue with having abilities that require zero skill to operate and disable the only means of survival medium armor builds have available.

On the other hand a good player can easily survive a zergling snipe spammer because while you might not always be able to avoid the first snipe, you always have time to CC Break+Dodge Roll the second (and one non-Asylum snipe alone is 8-10k burst only).


But sure, keep downplaying how overpowered Rune Cage is by comparing it to Snipe lmao.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Focusing on the actual issue? You derailed the thread and telling everyone to l2p with ur biased statements trying to discuss a class you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Someone needs to break it to you. You are not jesus christ and u are not here to save the game. We dont give a flying **** about what you think balance is and ur egotistical attitude trying to balance the entire game around you personally is starting to pissing everyone off.

Based on what I've read in this thread alone, I'm going to have to say I have way more knowledge on the sorc class (despite it not being my most played class) than certain people who seem more interested in attacking me than discussing the topic.

I guess that's what happens when people run out of arguments to defend Rune Cage. Divert the topic, get people to discuss something else so you get to keep your overpowered ability and ruining the game. That's the plan, isn't it?

You can stop pretending you want it balanced, all you want is to get free kills in PvP because you aren't good enough to get kills otherwise.

You dont die to ur build cause no one plays that ***.

So either dodge roll every 1-2s or keep shields up 100% of the time because some dumb-ass plays a ganking build and thinks his build has counterplay. Ok then, u can cloak 100% of the time too. There is ur counterplay.

pieratsos wrote: »

Its not about me having an issue with gank builds. Its about just one more of ur dumb biased comments about ur build having counterplay. It doesnt and no matter how u try to convince people that it has it wont change that.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, potatoes cant time curse cage frag to hit together. That would require them to actually know what they are doing. And only potatoes die to that. So if you are just dying to that ur build is trash defensively and nothing should be balanced around that build. Just because u hate the meta it doesnt make you a special snowflake.

pieratsos wrote: »

Im not comparing it to snipe in terms of which one is the most broken and no i dont want it to get free kills. Keep spinning words to fit them into ur agenda. You are not fooling anyone. Just making urself look more dumb.

Based on this thread you showcased zero knowledge when it comes to the class and u have embarrased urself. You are just living in an imaginary world. You have literally tried to give videos as proof and u couldnt even analyze what was happening in the video. Lmao. You know the dunning kruger effect or whatever the hell its called. Fits perfectly in ur case.

Attacking you instead of discussing the topic? Thats rich coming from someone telling everyone to l2p. I respond in the same way cause its the only language you seem to be able to respond to.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and which "playstyle" am I ruining?

Unlike sorc Rune Cage burst, mine:

1. Deals less than half the damage.
2. Dodgeable/blockable.
3. Outrangable/countered by being too close (precisely 15-20m required for the combo to land properly).

In other words, it actually takes some skill to land and not just "press button, kill player" from 40m & zero counterplay. Which is why you don't see nearly as many threads complaining about builds like mine compared to Rune Cage.


If you were a good sorc player, you'd also want your class to require some skill atleast to play it efficiently.

You are killing people out of stealth before they have time to react and u are asking which playstyles do u ruin? Are you playing dumb? Also, thats a subjective opinion. If someone comes and tells you that gank builds ruin his playstyle and his experience you dont get to tell him that he is wrong.

If people die to my burst, they die to any burst (deals the same dmg as Incap->Merciless for example, or Shalks+DBOS-Rev Slice, or a FoO+Leap->Power Lash), so I don't think my playstyle is any particular problem when you look at the big picture.

pieratsos wrote: »

Ur combo also consists by less than half the abilites of a rune cage combo. But regardless of that how much dmg they deal is actually irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens. Both combos instakill people. Thats what matters.

Lots of combos instakill people, that's how most builds operate. But what other combos have in common (and Rune Cage doesn't) is that they have counterplay and can be avoided. I.e. better player wins.

pieratsos wrote: »

Dodgeable/blockable. Which would require people to actually see you so they react. You are attacking them out of stealth genius.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open (keeping in mind the 20m range of Asylum Bow combo & where a bow build might be hiding). If you're riding between keeps, you'll get combat music the moment someone starts casting a skill on you.

Ironically the only "gank build" (tbh I spend just as much time outside stealth when in a grp vs grp fight in BGs for example) that lands their combo guaranteed is Overload Sorc, which can cast Rune Cage to disable all those proactive defenses.

pieratsos wrote: »

Takes skill to land 2 abilites on unsuspecting targets out of stealth? Seems like you are the one with l2p issues.

Yes, it does. Or you'd see 80% of players sniping people rather than spamming Rune Cage and thinking they're good at this game.

pieratsos wrote: »

In other words ur bias continues to be off the charts and at this point its not even funny anymore. Its prety sad. Talking about good sorcs while you dont have a single clue about the class. Save urself from further embarrassment and stop talking about the class overall. Just stick to rune cage.

Also i would want my class to take some skill to be played efficiently. Just like i want everything to skill. I never defended rune cage. Im prety sure i told you that many times. Are you having short memory or something ?

I am talking about Rune Cage?

Or do you see me demanding dmg shield nerfs somewhere? Frag nerfs? Maybe Streak or Curse?


You're the one who keeps attacking me with comments like:

Plays a ganking build that is based on literally killing unsuspected people out of stealth without being able to react and then talks about ruining playstyles. Lmao

..rather than focusing on the actual issue and topic of this thread.

1. Your 20k hp squishling dies to any burst as well. You literally die to 2-3 attacks. watch ur videos. they dont even combo u. You just melt.

Of course. I would expect nothing less if I get hit.

I play a build based on avoiding damage, not tanking it (hence why I say Rune Cage is ruining playstyles atm).

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Again, the counterplay to ur combo exists only in terms of people actually seeing you and expecting it. You attack them from stealth. You are ganking them and instakill them to actually avoid giving them counterplay.

Again, proactive defenses. Listening to sound cues (i.e. combat music). Did you just skip everything I wrote?

Times I've died to my own build: 0 (despite being squishy af).

pieratsos wrote: »

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

Yes... when you're out in the open where a bow build can hit you with burst combo and happen to be playing a medium armor dodge roller(lol). When you're not playing a medium armor dodge roller, you keep shields up. Simple.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Never said that overload gank is not gank. It is gank and its also with no counterplay just like any gank. Thats the entire purpose of gank builds.

If "ganking"/stealth oriented builds are such a big issue to you, go make a thread about it. It is not the topic of this one.

pieratsos wrote: »

5. Potatoes that just spam rune cage dont kill anything. They are zerglings and the combination of other people attacking you with that guy rune caging you is what kills you. If you are actually dying to a potato sorc with rune cage you have massive l2p issues. Just like a zergling spamming snipe from 40 meters. Alone he wont kill anything but when people start piling up that zergling spamming snipe will be the reason u die. This is called poor design of skills and snipe is amongst the top conteders when it comes to that.

Even a potato sorc can cast Curse on you & then Rune Cage->Frags. That is the issue with having abilities that require zero skill to operate and disable the only means of survival medium armor builds have available.

On the other hand a good player can easily survive a zergling snipe spammer because while you might not always be able to avoid the first snipe, you always have time to CC Break+Dodge Roll the second (and one non-Asylum snipe alone is 8-10k burst only).


But sure, keep downplaying how overpowered Rune Cage is by comparing it to Snipe lmao.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Focusing on the actual issue? You derailed the thread and telling everyone to l2p with ur biased statements trying to discuss a class you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Someone needs to break it to you. You are not jesus christ and u are not here to save the game. We dont give a flying **** about what you think balance is and ur egotistical attitude trying to balance the entire game around you personally is starting to pissing everyone off.

Based on what I've read in this thread alone, I'm going to have to say I have way more knowledge on the sorc class (despite it not being my most played class) than certain people who seem more interested in attacking me than discussing the topic.

I guess that's what happens when people run out of arguments to defend Rune Cage. Divert the topic, get people to discuss something else so you get to keep your overpowered ability and ruining the game. That's the plan, isn't it?

You can stop pretending you want it balanced, all you want is to get free kills in PvP because you aren't good enough to get kills otherwise.

You dont die to ur build cause no one plays that ***.

So either dodge roll every 1-2s or keep shields up 100% of the time because some dumb-ass plays a ganking build and thinks his build has counterplay. Ok then, u can cloak 100% of the time too. There is ur counterplay.

And now you're drawing false parallels between using primary defense and secondary defense.

Dodge rolling (when in the open) on a stamina build is sustainable, spamming cloak isn't.

And vice versa for magicka builds.


Not that I'd expect you to recognize the difference.

Also, Rune Cage actually stuns people through cloak (if cast before it).

pieratsos wrote: »

Its not about me having an issue with gank builds. Its about just one more of ur dumb biased comments about ur build having counterplay. It doesnt and no matter how u try to convince people that it has it wont change that.

If you don't have a problem with them, why bring them up? Surely if these builds had no counterplay you would have problems with them. Logic, you're allowed to use it.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, potatoes cant time curse cage frag to hit together. That would require them to actually know what they are doing. And only potatoes die to that. So if you are just dying to that ur build is trash defensively and nothing should be balanced around that build. Just because u hate the meta it doesnt make you a special snowflake.

Because pressing 2-3 buttons is so difficult? You don't even need to find an opportune burst window or catch opponent off guard when using Rune Cage, you just get a free kill.

And yes, my build must be "defensively trash" to score like this in a (rare) BG with no sorcs:



...but sure, keep downplaying how disastrous Rune Cage is to build diversity right now and trying to make it about "your build sucks" rather than "Rune Cage is overpowered". The very least you could do is stop pretending you don't like Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

Im not comparing it to snipe in terms of which one is the most broken and no i dont want it to get free kills. Keep spinning words to fit them into ur agenda. You are not fooling anyone. Just making urself look more dumb.

Based on this thread you showcased zero knowledge when it comes to the class and u have embarrased urself. You are just living in an imaginary world. You have literally tried to give videos as proof and u couldnt even analyze what was happening in the video. Lmao. You know the dunning kruger effect or whatever the hell its called. Fits perfectly in ur case.

Attacking you instead of discussing the topic? Thats rich coming from someone telling everyone to l2p. I respond in the same way cause its the only language you seem to be able to respond to.

I did analyze the video? If you mean this where I get a kill in a normal 1vX scenario, cloak, get CC'd by Rune Cage through cloak (which you told me to use against RC, lol) and die as I CC break without anything I can do about it.

Or this where I've recorded the most ideal scenarios where you can receive the combo (tanky builds with Impreg etc, all heals & defensive buffs up) and it is still unsurvivable.

I've also analyzed the numbers behind the whole burst to point out that it does more damage than anything else in the game, even more than my bow build's burst (which can be dodged/blocked and has shorter range)

I've also taken note of the public sentiment about the ability (and how it affects peoples' opinions of mSorc in general):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424974/which-class-is-overpowered-in-overall-performance/p1

...so I'm not sure I'm the "dumb" one here living in an "imaginary world".


I tell random nobodies to L2P when they refuse to listen to facts (see above) and keep spouting nonsense.

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.


You can't say I'm wrong because I have the facts wrong, so I must be wrong because you feel antagonized. It's really as simple as that.

Not drawing anything. Just using ur own stupid logic. Not that id expect you to understand that tho.

Wait, wut? So now we all have to have the same feelings as you on "unbalanced" issues? And thats logic to you? Dear god, your delusions are really frightening. Just because i dont have an issue with ganking it doesnt mean that it has a counter. A lot of variable come into the mix.

No, you dont get a free kill. Its a free kill only on builds like urs.

You can use those proactively, you know? Just like a dmg shield user keeps their shields up, all you need to do is dodge roll every 1-2s when you're in the open

If you want to discuss things with me, you listen, argue with facts (maths, video evidence, logic etc) and none of this emotion based nonsense.

pieratsos wrote: »

A NB with cloak having zero deaths on a potato BG. Hmmmmm. That must prove a lot, especially when u dont even have actual footage but just a screenshot of the score.

pieratsos wrote: »

I didnt defend rune cage. I repeated that about 100 times so far. I hate rune cage since the first day it was introduced. I want it deleted not reworked. Go back and find the comments. Your attempts to tell me how i like rune cage are adorable. Quite funny actually. Stupid non the less.

pieratsos wrote: »

I mean both ur duel video failing to analyze how streak functions and ur 1vX video dying to "cage". Which wasnt because of cage. A simple flame reach into frags would kill you as well because you couldnt see it. Thats the nature of ur build. Just melts to everything that hits you.

DDuke wrote:

]

Feanor wrote:

Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.

Yes, it is - it doesn't guarantee one shots but you do get to pressure them (along with Curse procs & possibly pet damage).

If you're good at sorc you could even count the distance right & land right next to that dodge roller with the Streak, throwing out a Frag before they can CC break+dodge roll.

pieratsos wrote: »

Analyzing numbers based on builds of ur choice in a controlled environment. Yeah thats definitely the reality of open world.

pieratsos wrote: »

Using forums to present reality. So now ur associating urself with Xv1 zerglings who think oblivion dmg shieldbreaker and sloads are balanced because they cant 30v1 some sorc and moan about curse OP frag OP streak OP shields OP etc.

pieratsos wrote: »

Discuss with you? Kinda hard to do that with ur egotistical attitude. When u cut the crap and stay unbiased without bringing sets in an attempt to balance the class then ill be here. Till then.... oh well. I guess we'll just have to insult each other until ZOS locks the thread or ban us.

Here's a list of things I've suggested over the past few months/years that would hurt my playstyle (note: on stamblade, I play all classes), but make the game better balance-wise:
Give cloak/sneak a visual cue (i.e. faint footprints ppl can follow) so people can find stealthers rather than just guess where they are.
Give cloak a similar "can't cast again" cooldown as channels/casts that get interrupted if cloak gets broken prematurely by damage.
Remove Incap CC or make it like before (health % based). This ability allows NBs to kill people too easily with too little skill required (two button burst: "1. Incap-> 2. Relentless").

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.

The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.


And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.

Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.

And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...


So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.

The point of brining up mDk and nb is that with the scenario you set forth with Balorgh, the extra damage gained at 500 ultimate is redundant; ergo any class in the scenario you proposed will be able to instaburst a non-tank build suggesting that the set is more of a problem than the class.

No, because even when comparing Balorgh ulti burst with NB/DK to non-Balorgh ulti burst on Sorc the former two deal less unavoidable damage.

It is always the class that is the problem, not the sets. Like let's say you have 76k "tooltip burst" on a Sorcerer & 55k on a NB. 21k more than NB, right?

Now what happens if you add a set that gives +10% worth of damage?

76 000+10%(7600)=83 600
54 000+10%(5400)=59 400


What do you know, the difference is now 24,2k in favour of Sorc & NB still doesn't even deal the same burst Sorc did before this set existed.


Do you see the problem?

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.

IAVITNI wrote: »

If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.

Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".

It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.

There's a pretty big difference between "just purge it" and the counters I listed. 1 being that all those counters are actually meta skills, so most builds aren't sacrificing anything and another being that the skills listed aren't being slotted solely to counter 1 mechanic.

The only stam class I have in heavy is my sDK. Every other class runs medium and I've dueled sorcs of equal or greater skill level. There are counters. Is it overbearing on live? Yes. But is it void of counterplay? On live, it is void of consistent counterplay but with the damage removed from Rune Cage, the only time a sorc will be a threat is when they have ultimate, and a very costly one at that. The combo doesn't work quite the same with DB. In fact, I'll be swapping back to DB over Meteor because Meteor is simply unreliable relatively. It

So, a CC immune sorc with a det pot up decides to Meteor combo me - what exactly is my "counter" here as a stamblade? Or maybe some random pug threw Caltrops over me or Piercing Marked me.

In a perfect world you can cloak after Meteor, but that perfect world isn't always there and you die without anything you can do about it.


And what happens when I play my stam sorc that has zero ways of preventing Meteor combo (no, BoL doesn't work I've tested it)?

Don't tell me to use invis pot.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.

Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?

I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU


The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.

I'm not talking about the buggy animation which I agree should be fixed for proper counter play and fluidity for both parties. What I'm referring to is the damage nerf having a bigger impact than you realize. If I build full damage on a sorc I'm dueling so I'm assuming you're not referring to duel builds. Open world sorcs tend to build more into sustain. I've fought magsorcs 1v1 on my NB that runs all offensive medium sets with only 2 health glyphs being my commitment to mitigation. I've gone back and forth with good players that I know are just as good if not better than me because I main magsorc, I understand the class and therefore I know how to fight it.

The damage is definitely survivable now, except you want to survive it on a build that even you admit is glass. You run stealth builds so if you're caught out long enough to have a full Curse-fury-meteor-Rune-Frag combo that's more on you.

"If I build full damage on a sorc I'm dueling" < this is called bias, not everyone builds their characters like you in PvP (and I know many who use sustain sets in duels too).

There's plenty of people who go all in on damage and that's perfectly fine - as long as their damage can be avoided by playing well.


On that video I linked there's a stamblade with full tri-glyphs & Impregnable and he doesn't survive a non-Meteor combo. So no, it is not survivable on Live - especially in builds that actually want to kill people.

If you don't build "glass" on a stamblade, you might as well slap on Master DW+Sloads (and better go heavy armor in that case) as your other sets or go into any of the dozen of "nerf shields" threads because that Brass/Impregnable/Protective jewelry zero burst stam build can't get through shields anymore.


The difference between a stam character & a mSorc building glass is that one of them can still survive any burst after doing so because their defensive mechanic actually works in all scenarios.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.

What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.


Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.

You're numbers are mathematically correct. But how many times have you gone to a grocery and seen some lady named Susan walking out with 100 Watermelons? That's simply not how it works in practice. For all your damage calculations, prior to the damage on Rune, very rarely did a magsorc get a competent opponent from full health to execute range in 1 combo. Even with an ultimate dump, you would need a few rotations to wait for your opponent to mess up. Without the Rune damage (well drop it to a 7.5k tooltip) a non-glass opponent isn't going to fall into execute which means thats Fury (15k tooltip) isn't going to go off.

If you want a real example, subtract Vigor and Rally/FM ticks for all stam classes, remove Curse for Magplars, remove Frags for mDKs and a good portion of sDKs who are going to run wings for snare removal, remove frags for a magden due to shimmering and apply minor protection, remove or half the damage of frags since nightblades can cloak them--apply minor Maim for mNBs etc.. You're numbers are right. If you're fighting a potato.

NBs cannot cloak Frags or anything else for that matter if sorc uses det pot before ulti burst (or if NB simply cannot cloak due to some random AoE, Piercing Mark etc etc) & stam sorc has zero defensive mechanics to help them survive the burst.


Other than that yes, some classes have ways to help them lower the damage from that combo.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.

I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.

The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.

Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.

No, it wouldn't be more balanced, it would be beneficial to glass-cannon roll dodge builds and useless to magsorcs who will just slot Clench because it will simply be better overall and magsorcs are back to potato farming.

So it'd help the stamina builds that struggle the most vs mSorcs but still be good for fighting tank builds & other sorcs which tend to be more problematic... and somehow that would suddenly make the skill useless?


You don't need "I-Win" buttons that take zero skill to use to fight dodge roll based builds & being able to bypass block/reflect and deal more burst damage is more important.

Sorc already has the best toolkit in the game to deal with dodge rollers (including an actual balanced stun that goes through dodge roll: Streak).

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.

Now this is a valid argument. Everything else you said is just bias towards your preferred play style. However, there are feasible ways to prevent getting Rune Caged. The damage is no longer as threatening because the normal burst is losing out on +20k tooltip damage. You simply refuse to adapt. Honestly, stop using your build as a baseline because all you're doing is proliferating misleading information about sorcs that will lead to them being nerfed/buffed in the wrong areas--ZoS' preferred balance strategy. Be like @BohnT BohnT's argument is that no class should have access to both unavoidable damage and unblockable/unavoidable CC. Make that the basis of your argument @DDuke and you'll get more support instead of presenting half truths.

So I should "adapt" and go play a meta tank build with bleeds & sloads, is that it? I'm going to keep using my build(s) as a baseline because those are the builds I (and many other people) actually enjoy playing - not the sload/bleed garbage that's everywhere.

Speaking of "misleading information", you also can't call NB or DK damage "unavoidable" when all of it can be kited (and deals far less damage than Sorcs) and most of the follow up after those unblockable/undodgeable CCs can be avoided as well (no delayed burst like sorcs have).

IAVITNI wrote: »

Everyone else has had to build tankier ever since SS. Medium armor builds tend to run 1 defensive set (except cloak blades) and while Heavy still runs 2 offensive or 1 mixed set (BP) IMO, this is indicative of balance since heavy and medium tend to build towards each other. All that's left is to nerf shield stacking so they can buff individual shields so that light armor is viable on all classes.

Yes, everyone has to build tankier... because of sorcs.

Oh wait, hold on... not everyone. There are still builds that can stack full into magicka (i.e. full into damage) and survive behind 30k shield stacks.


That's just the reality of the situation.

Whether you think shield stacking should be nerfed or not (personal opinion: dmg shields are fine) is irrelevant.

What they need to do is fix this Rune Cage bull*** so that medium armor (i.e. dodge roll based builds) is viable on all classes. Right now light armor can be played on any of the classes and is usually even BiS (mDK, magplar, mSorc, magblade... not sure about warden, they play weird max health builds these days).

IAVITNI wrote: »

But guess what. That will never happen until mag sorc is balanced. Prior to the frag nerfs m sorc was only overperforming defensively but people who don't understand the class complained about it's burst and mSorc was gutted to the point where ZoS felt an unblockable/undodgable CC that dealt 4k damage was necessary for balance. On live it over performs everywhere but completely gutting Rune Cage will make the class bottom tier.

Yet I saw plenty of sorcs doing fine in CWC & Dragon Bones. Should I start linking videos?

Sorc has always been either top tier (like right now & multiple different updates in the past) or close behind NB in power. It has never been "gutted" or "bottom tier".

If you want to see bottom tier, go play mag warden. That's truly the only underperforming class at the moment.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Again. I'll end with the fact that I FULLY SUPPORT removing Rune Cage entirely IF AND ONLY IF sorcs are compensated by having Frags unnerved. Come on ZoS. You reverted 1 change, now revert that one that matters.

So basically you only care about yourself and want to extort some unnecessary buffs from ZOS. Cool.


I personally couldn't care less about Frag stun, but that's the wrong way to go about it.

If you slot purge on your bar then you negate the most important quality of a sorc burst, the curse. A meteor and frag will not kill you even with rune cage, I've fought many NB that dont get hurt by the combo because they have been adapting. Just slot purge, sorcs had to slot a heal for shield breaker and sloads, so just adapt.