4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Your claims of "not liking Rune Cage", but then trying to justify it by claiming its "my build's fault" are similar to someone saying "I don't condone sexual assault, but that victim had it coming".

Wait wut? When did i justify rune cage being broken? I just merely stated a fact about ur video. Anything would kill you right there. Your build is so squishy to the point where it simply cant handle incoming dmg. You got caught in the slow snipe animation and you instantly exploded by 2-3 random attacks. Thats the fact about ur video. Your video does not highlight the broken aspect of rune cage. However this does not mean that i justify rune cage being broken.

But you see, this is exactly the issue with everything you say. You are just spinning everything over and over and over again just to make your point. Now if it makes you feel better, you can try to spin it again and tell me how i like rune cage. Should be fun to see what you come up with now.

Like clockwork, you're doing it again.

No, I would not have died in my video if it wasn't for Rune Cage because I casted cloak, which lets me avoid any incoming attack apart from AoEs - and since there weren't people on my melee range the only such AoEs would be Bombard, Shalks (assuming Warden had 3s to set those up) & WoE, none of which CC me & prevent dodge rolling high hitting single target burst.

The "snipe animation" I apparently now got "stuck in" ended at 0:04 of the video, after which there's two Bombards & two Light Attacks from me. The first bit of damage (2,7k) on me arrived at 0:07, after which I cloak, which gets broken by Rune Cage & rest of the story we know.

No Rune Cage? I take 2,7k dmg to my health, I'm invisible & I go about my business.


You can keep "victim shaming" my build all day long (rather than discussing the actual issue), doesn't make you right. I play my build every day to know how well it can survive thanks to kiting & outranging melee builds and using reactive defenses (cloak/dodge) to avoid ranged burst.

I even put out videos where you can see it and posted a 0 death BG scoreboard on this thread to prove my point (because I really don't get many deaths outside Rune Cage bull***).


If you think you can do better on a bow build and survive Rune Cages, prove it. First you'd have to level up a stamina character though.

pieratsos wrote: »

How i sound like? Dude, you are like a broken record repeating the same nonsense over and over again trying to put words in my mouth just to make ur point. Incapability of listening to others? How ironic coming from someone failing to read a simple statement over and over again and attacking the other person with things they never said just to discredit them. lmao.

Stop with the whole victim shaming & implying it's the victim's fault if they die to Rune Cage & I'll stop saying you're defending Rune Cage. Simple as that.

But i never implied its ur fault for dying or victim shaming ur build. No one is to blame. Why do you always have to blame someone. Its just a simple fact. You keep whining about rune cage combos or whatever. Dude u melted in 2 attacks. No one comboed you. Any cc in the game would do the same crap from someone you didnt see. Like i said anyone could come as well from behind you and dawnbreak you to death in 2 seconds.

So now complaining about Rune Cage combos is "whining", good to know. Keep digging.

Also as I mentioned I have way more camera angle than DBOS has range. People don't just mysteriously appear in your melee range unless you play in first person (or they sneak up on you, in which case they bloody well deserve that kill and I didn't play mobile enough). But keep ignoring this fact.

I've also said numerous times you don't need the full Rune Cage combo to kill medium armor builds - all you need to do is "disable" their dodge roll/cloak with a click of a button & it's like hitting a sorc without a dmg shield up (in fact you should go try that, play without dmg shields - gets you some perspective).

pieratsos wrote: »

Just because people dont agree with you on something you say it doesnt mean they disagree with you on everything. So you can cut the crap of blaming people defending rune cage when they tell you the exact opposite.

Then I guess it's better for both parties to move on from that issue and focus on the topic of the thread.

I don't need to convince you that medium armor builds can survive just fine when Rune Cage isn't around, what you think doesn't affect my gameplay (Rune Cage does).

pieratsos wrote: »

Now im not gonna go back into ur numbers thing cause you obviously believe everyone should play ur builds and that those builds are the measure of balance. So its pointless to have a conversation like that when you refuse to listen to reason.

No, I don't think everyone plays/should play my builds (because then I'd have to create new ones, I hate "meta") - but those builds do exist and pretending they don't doesn't help anyone.

When you look at abilities you look at how they can be abused, not how they can be used fairly - that's how PvP theorycrafting works.


Just like ZOS does with max dmg stam builds (proc set nerfs, sneak attack dmg modifier removal etc), max dmg magicka builds also need to be balanced to be fair.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't think everyone plays/should play my builds (because then I'd have to create new ones, I hate "meta") - but those builds do exist and pretending they don't doesn't help anyone.

When you look at abilities you look at how they can be abused, not how they can be used fairly - that's how PvP theorycrafting works.


Just like ZOS does with max dmg stam builds (proc set nerfs, sneak attack dmg modifier removal etc), max dmg magicka builds also need to be balanced to be fair.

Yeah every now and then you may see someone using ur build. Thats why they cant be used as a measure of balance. Using 30k shield sorcs as ur measure when 90% of the sorc run with 20-23k shields just makes you biased.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't think everyone plays/should play my builds (because then I'd have to create new ones, I hate "meta") - but those builds do exist and pretending they don't doesn't help anyone.

When you look at abilities you look at how they can be abused, not how they can be used fairly - that's how PvP theorycrafting works.


Just like ZOS does with max dmg stam builds (proc set nerfs, sneak attack dmg modifier removal etc), max dmg magicka builds also need to be balanced to be fair.

Yeah every now and then you may see someone using ur build. Thats why they cant be used as a measure of balance. Using 30k shield sorcs as ur measure when 90% of the sorc run with 20-23k shields just makes you biased.

See, that is a delusion. Thinking that only "popular builds" matter or should be balanced around.

If there was a stam build for example that one shot people without counterplay (let's say someone figured out how to make Asylum Snipe land after Rune Cage - or it dealt Oblivion damage and went through shields) it wouldn't be any more or less fair on the basis that only 10% of stamina builds played it.


That is way I say that balance is simply math; figuring out what is too much/too little damage and what is too easy/too difficult to actually land and then referencing all the available builds out there.

Or what is too much/too little sustain.

Or anything basically, as everything can be broken down to numbers.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't think everyone plays/should play my builds (because then I'd have to create new ones, I hate "meta") - but those builds do exist and pretending they don't doesn't help anyone.

When you look at abilities you look at how they can be abused, not how they can be used fairly - that's how PvP theorycrafting works.


Just like ZOS does with max dmg stam builds (proc set nerfs, sneak attack dmg modifier removal etc), max dmg magicka builds also need to be balanced to be fair.

Yeah every now and then you may see someone using ur build. Thats why they cant be used as a measure of balance. Using 30k shield sorcs as ur measure when 90% of the sorc run with 20-23k shields just makes you biased.

See, that is a delusion. Thinking that only "popular builds" matter or should be balanced around.

If there was a stam build for example that one shot people without counterplay (let's say someone figured out how to make Asylum Snipe land after Rune Cage - or it dealt Oblivion damage and went through shields) it wouldn't be any more or less fair on the basis that only 10% of stamina builds played it.


That is way I say that balance is simply math; figuring out what is too much/too little damage and what is too easy/too difficult to actually land and then referencing all the available builds out there.

Or what is too much/too little sustain.

Or anything basically, as everything can be broken down to numbers.

You do realise that nerfing everything because of the extreme results in hurting everyone but the extreme right? Thats literally the route zos has been taking and the game is trash.

You are right that you need to account for the extreme but not in the way you do it.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't think everyone plays/should play my builds (because then I'd have to create new ones, I hate "meta") - but those builds do exist and pretending they don't doesn't help anyone.

When you look at abilities you look at how they can be abused, not how they can be used fairly - that's how PvP theorycrafting works.


Just like ZOS does with max dmg stam builds (proc set nerfs, sneak attack dmg modifier removal etc), max dmg magicka builds also need to be balanced to be fair.

Yeah every now and then you may see someone using ur build. Thats why they cant be used as a measure of balance. Using 30k shield sorcs as ur measure when 90% of the sorc run with 20-23k shields just makes you biased.

See, that is a delusion. Thinking that only "popular builds" matter or should be balanced around.

If there was a stam build for example that one shot people without counterplay (let's say someone figured out how to make Asylum Snipe land after Rune Cage - or it dealt Oblivion damage and went through shields) it wouldn't be any more or less fair on the basis that only 10% of stamina builds played it.


That is way I say that balance is simply math; figuring out what is too much/too little damage and what is too easy/too difficult to actually land and then referencing all the available builds out there.

Or what is too much/too little sustain.

Or anything basically, as everything can be broken down to numbers.

You do realise that nerfing everything because of the extreme results in hurting everyone but the extreme right? Thats literally the route zos has been taking and the game is trash.

You are right that you need to account for the extreme but not in the way you do it.

Game is in a lot better spot than it was when proc sets were instagibbing people with no counterplay, or when sorc shields were practically impregnable (for a solo player), or when DKs could spam ultimates non-stop and literally solo zergs in invisible batswarms.


I don't see how nerfing "extreme" would "hurt everyone but the extreme". Are you thinking I advocate for some sweeping damage nerfs across the board that would hurt other builds as well? That is not the case (though it might be if they refuse to address Rune Cage properly).

Other way to achieve balance would be simply bringing up the survivability of builds that cannot survive Rune Cage and this would result in these builds becoming overpowered against builds whose damage they actually can avoid.

Imagine a scenario where you finally catch a dodge roller off guard with an Incap->Merciless after spending like ages trying to make that happen, and then that dodge roll build just takes 50-60% of health pool damage, CC breaks & goes back to spamming dodge roll like nothing happened.

No one wants that.


What needs to be done is making sure that the high dmg builds cannot land their burst guaranteed or too easily and that they give up adequate amount of sustain to achieve that high damage - apart from the inevitability of Rune Cage burst I think they've managed this pretty well.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't think everyone plays/should play my builds (because then I'd have to create new ones, I hate "meta") - but those builds do exist and pretending they don't doesn't help anyone.

When you look at abilities you look at how they can be abused, not how they can be used fairly - that's how PvP theorycrafting works.


Just like ZOS does with max dmg stam builds (proc set nerfs, sneak attack dmg modifier removal etc), max dmg magicka builds also need to be balanced to be fair.

Yeah every now and then you may see someone using ur build. Thats why they cant be used as a measure of balance. Using 30k shield sorcs as ur measure when 90% of the sorc run with 20-23k shields just makes you biased.

See, that is a delusion. Thinking that only "popular builds" matter or should be balanced around.

If there was a stam build for example that one shot people without counterplay (let's say someone figured out how to make Asylum Snipe land after Rune Cage - or it dealt Oblivion damage and went through shields) it wouldn't be any more or less fair on the basis that only 10% of stamina builds played it.


That is way I say that balance is simply math; figuring out what is too much/too little damage and what is too easy/too difficult to actually land and then referencing all the available builds out there.

Or what is too much/too little sustain.

Or anything basically, as everything can be broken down to numbers.

You do realise that nerfing everything because of the extreme results in hurting everyone but the extreme right? Thats literally the route zos has been taking and the game is trash.

You are right that you need to account for the extreme but not in the way you do it.

Game is in a lot better spot than it was when proc sets were instagibbing people with no counterplay, or when sorc shields were practically impregnable (for a solo player), or when DKs could spam ultimates non-stop and literally solo zergs in invisible batswarms.


I don't see how nerfing "extreme" would "hurt everyone but the extreme". Are you thinking I advocate for some sweeping damage nerfs across the board that would hurt other builds as well? That is not the case (though it might be if they refuse to address Rune Cage properly).

Other way to achieve balance would be simply bringing up the survivability of builds that cannot survive Rune Cage and this would result in these builds becoming overpowered against builds whose damage they actually can avoid.

Imagine a scenario where you finally catch a dodge roller off guard with an Incap->Merciless after spending like ages trying to make that happen, and then that dodge roll build just takes 50-60% of health pool damage, CC breaks & goes back to spamming dodge roll like nothing happened.

No one wants that.


What needs to be done is making sure that the high dmg builds cannot land their burst guaranteed or too easily and that they give up adequate amount of sustain to achieve that high damage - apart from the inevitability of Rune Cage burst I think they've managed this pretty well.

Game is in a lot better spot? Wut? The game has never been more broken than it is now. Everything is broken now. Rune cage is just the icing on the cake.

You balance the extreme by not allowing it to exist in the first place. Not by doing math to see if build A can take the dmg from build B. This is not how balance works. PVP is not target dummies with battle spirit. The only thing you achieve this way is exactly what you said. Sweeping nerfs across the board cause you are focusing on the specific scenario you created which doesnt even resemble reality in the slightest instead of actually addressing the issue.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't think everyone plays/should play my builds (because then I'd have to create new ones, I hate "meta") - but those builds do exist and pretending they don't doesn't help anyone.

When you look at abilities you look at how they can be abused, not how they can be used fairly - that's how PvP theorycrafting works.


Just like ZOS does with max dmg stam builds (proc set nerfs, sneak attack dmg modifier removal etc), max dmg magicka builds also need to be balanced to be fair.

Yeah every now and then you may see someone using ur build. Thats why they cant be used as a measure of balance. Using 30k shield sorcs as ur measure when 90% of the sorc run with 20-23k shields just makes you biased.

See, that is a delusion. Thinking that only "popular builds" matter or should be balanced around.

If there was a stam build for example that one shot people without counterplay (let's say someone figured out how to make Asylum Snipe land after Rune Cage - or it dealt Oblivion damage and went through shields) it wouldn't be any more or less fair on the basis that only 10% of stamina builds played it.


That is way I say that balance is simply math; figuring out what is too much/too little damage and what is too easy/too difficult to actually land and then referencing all the available builds out there.

Or what is too much/too little sustain.

Or anything basically, as everything can be broken down to numbers.

You do realise that nerfing everything because of the extreme results in hurting everyone but the extreme right? Thats literally the route zos has been taking and the game is trash.

You are right that you need to account for the extreme but not in the way you do it.

Game is in a lot better spot than it was when proc sets were instagibbing people with no counterplay, or when sorc shields were practically impregnable (for a solo player), or when DKs could spam ultimates non-stop and literally solo zergs in invisible batswarms.


I don't see how nerfing "extreme" would "hurt everyone but the extreme". Are you thinking I advocate for some sweeping damage nerfs across the board that would hurt other builds as well? That is not the case (though it might be if they refuse to address Rune Cage properly).

Other way to achieve balance would be simply bringing up the survivability of builds that cannot survive Rune Cage and this would result in these builds becoming overpowered against builds whose damage they actually can avoid.

Imagine a scenario where you finally catch a dodge roller off guard with an Incap->Merciless after spending like ages trying to make that happen, and then that dodge roll build just takes 50-60% of health pool damage, CC breaks & goes back to spamming dodge roll like nothing happened.

No one wants that.


What needs to be done is making sure that the high dmg builds cannot land their burst guaranteed or too easily and that they give up adequate amount of sustain to achieve that high damage - apart from the inevitability of Rune Cage burst I think they've managed this pretty well.

Game is in a lot better spot? Wut? The game has never been more broken than it is now. Everything is broken now. Rune cage is just the icing on the cake.

Frankly, yes. If you remove Rune Cage, Sloads, Incaps, tone down snares, bleeds & defiles it's in a pretty good spot compared to previous patches. Got high hopes for this upcoming one.

pieratsos wrote: »

You balance the extreme by not allowing it to exist in the first place. Not by doing math to see if build A can take the dmg from build B. This is not how balance works. PVP is not target dummies with battle spirit. The only thing you achieve this way is exactly what you said. Sweeping nerfs across the board cause you are focusing on the specific scenario you created which doesnt even resemble reality in the slightest instead of actually addressing the issue.

If scenarios like the ones I've calculated didn't resemble the reality for my build and other medium armor players, then people wouldn't complain about it.

Problem with taking the "extremes shouldn't exist" approach is that then everyone would be playing practically the same build - which, needless to say, isn't a very good idea either. We had that, back in the days of soft caps (which really is the only way to achieve that outside making every skill deal same dmg or removing gear from the game).


I'd rather see them address what causes "extreme builds" to be problematic without touching the other parts of burst combos that aren't problematic on their own and have counterplay (and also play large parts in the builds situated in the middle of the spectrum).

Giving people time to react to the burst is a good way of accomplishing that, as you can see from the disappearance of complaints about Selene & Velidreth etc.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't think everyone plays/should play my builds (because then I'd have to create new ones, I hate "meta") - but those builds do exist and pretending they don't doesn't help anyone.

When you look at abilities you look at how they can be abused, not how they can be used fairly - that's how PvP theorycrafting works.


Just like ZOS does with max dmg stam builds (proc set nerfs, sneak attack dmg modifier removal etc), max dmg magicka builds also need to be balanced to be fair.

Yeah every now and then you may see someone using ur build. Thats why they cant be used as a measure of balance. Using 30k shield sorcs as ur measure when 90% of the sorc run with 20-23k shields just makes you biased.

See, that is a delusion. Thinking that only "popular builds" matter or should be balanced around.

If there was a stam build for example that one shot people without counterplay (let's say someone figured out how to make Asylum Snipe land after Rune Cage - or it dealt Oblivion damage and went through shields) it wouldn't be any more or less fair on the basis that only 10% of stamina builds played it.


That is way I say that balance is simply math; figuring out what is too much/too little damage and what is too easy/too difficult to actually land and then referencing all the available builds out there.

Or what is too much/too little sustain.

Or anything basically, as everything can be broken down to numbers.

You do realise that nerfing everything because of the extreme results in hurting everyone but the extreme right? Thats literally the route zos has been taking and the game is trash.

You are right that you need to account for the extreme but not in the way you do it.

Game is in a lot better spot than it was when proc sets were instagibbing people with no counterplay, or when sorc shields were practically impregnable (for a solo player), or when DKs could spam ultimates non-stop and literally solo zergs in invisible batswarms.


I don't see how nerfing "extreme" would "hurt everyone but the extreme". Are you thinking I advocate for some sweeping damage nerfs across the board that would hurt other builds as well? That is not the case (though it might be if they refuse to address Rune Cage properly).

Other way to achieve balance would be simply bringing up the survivability of builds that cannot survive Rune Cage and this would result in these builds becoming overpowered against builds whose damage they actually can avoid.

Imagine a scenario where you finally catch a dodge roller off guard with an Incap->Merciless after spending like ages trying to make that happen, and then that dodge roll build just takes 50-60% of health pool damage, CC breaks & goes back to spamming dodge roll like nothing happened.

No one wants that.


What needs to be done is making sure that the high dmg builds cannot land their burst guaranteed or too easily and that they give up adequate amount of sustain to achieve that high damage - apart from the inevitability of Rune Cage burst I think they've managed this pretty well.

Game is in a lot better spot? Wut? The game has never been more broken than it is now. Everything is broken now. Rune cage is just the icing on the cake.

Frankly, yes. If you remove Rune Cage, Sloads, Incaps, tone down snares, bleeds & defiles it's in a pretty good spot compared to previous patches. Got high hopes for this upcoming one.

pieratsos wrote: »

You balance the extreme by not allowing it to exist in the first place. Not by doing math to see if build A can take the dmg from build B. This is not how balance works. PVP is not target dummies with battle spirit. The only thing you achieve this way is exactly what you said. Sweeping nerfs across the board cause you are focusing on the specific scenario you created which doesnt even resemble reality in the slightest instead of actually addressing the issue.

If scenarios like the ones I've calculated didn't resemble the reality for my build and other medium armor players, then people wouldn't complain about it.

Problem with taking the "extremes shouldn't exist" approach is that then everyone would be playing practically the same build - which, needless to say, isn't a very good idea either. We had that, back in the days of soft caps (which really is the only way to achieve that outside making every skill deal same dmg or removing gear from the game).


I'd rather see them address what causes "extreme builds" to be problematic without touching the other parts of burst combos that aren't problematic on their own and have counterplay (and also play large parts in the builds situated in the middle of the spectrum).

Giving people time to react to the burst is a good way of accomplishing that, as you can see from the disappearance of complaints about Selene & Velidreth etc.

Yeah isn't every time the same? High hopes just to get disappointed again.

I hardly see how addressing the extreme makes everyone run the same. If anything it's the exact opposite. You make a lot more sets viable. I didn't say bring old softcaps back. Just put some sort of limits. Simply put 30k shields shouldn't exist cause they give the delusion that everyone runs the same, they take no dmg and they one shot everyone. Which isn't true.

Same with sets. They need some sort of limits. Crap like zaan or sloads or that 1k dmg crap shouldn't exist. Doesn't matter what conditions they have. They throw balance out of the window. We want to fight other people. Not their stupid sets.

bardx86

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Beardimus

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

DDuke

Beardimus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

Problem is the total damage from sorc burst (not Rune Cage alone, though it does contribute to it atm)
or
that Rune Cage has no feasible counterplay.


Pick one. Personally I'd rather see them give the ability counterplay than nerfs to sorc damage.

bardx86

Beardimus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

The thing is rune cage is the most telegraphed CC in the game. A curse will always come before a cage and possibly a wrath. It give the opponent plenty of time for a counter. If curse doest come prior to cage then its most likely not gonna be a kill. I don't see why this is such a hard thing to understand. Maybe just a lot of bad players in this game?

Kilandros

Here's how I'd balance Rune Cage:

Range reduced to 8m
Cost increased to ~4k magicka

If you look at how the top tier sorcs were playing pre-Rune Cage they were using DBoS to time their burst/kill. They could start applying pressure from range but they actually needed to move in close to Dawnbreaker.

I think given how strong undogdeable/unlockable CCs are generally, making them melee range helps balance them because you need to put yourself in danger to use it. Yeah you have this really strong CC that lets you do a ton of burst damage--but you have to put yourself in range of that Fossilize or that Fear in order to use it (ofc RIP Templars and Wardens who aren't allowed to have a good CC because #ZOS). Just like how the good Sorcs were using Dawnbreaker a few patches ago.

Feanor

Guys, we can abandon all of this. Just look at 4.1.3 and tell me how many PvP related fixes you count. So, does it matter that we’re arguing back and forth for weeks now?

bardx86

Feanor wrote: »

Guys, we can abandon all of this. Just look at 4.1.3 and tell me how many PvP related fixes you count. So, does it matter that we’re arguing back and forth for weeks now?

lol right

bardx86

Kilandros wrote: »

Here's how I'd balance Rune Cage:

Range reduced to 8m
Cost increased to ~4k magicka

If you look at how the top tier sorcs were playing pre-Rune Cage they were using DBoS to time their burst/kill. They could start applying pressure from range but they actually needed to move in close to Dawnbreaker.

I think given how strong undogdeable/unlockable CCs are generally, making them melee range helps balance them because you need to put yourself in danger to use it. Yeah you have this really strong CC that lets you do a ton of burst damage--but you have to put yourself in range of that Fossilize or that Fear in order to use it (ofc RIP Templars and Wardens who aren't allowed to have a good CC because #ZOS). Just like how the good Sorcs were using Dawnbreaker a few patches ago.

Bad Idea. We have a stun that is melee range in streak. BTW that gives the opponent CC immunity so it will negate a rune cage rotation for 5 sec. As a sorc I don't want anyone near me. A ranged CC fits the sorcs play style . Maybe reduce the range a bit but not to 8m.

bardx86

Beardimus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

You know i was thinking. What if the frags proc was increase to 50% to account for the reduced rune cage damage?

Kilandros

bardx86 wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Here's how I'd balance Rune Cage:

Range reduced to 8m
Cost increased to ~4k magicka

If you look at how the top tier sorcs were playing pre-Rune Cage they were using DBoS to time their burst/kill. They could start applying pressure from range but they actually needed to move in close to Dawnbreaker.

I think given how strong undogdeable/unlockable CCs are generally, making them melee range helps balance them because you need to put yourself in danger to use it. Yeah you have this really strong CC that lets you do a ton of burst damage--but you have to put yourself in range of that Fossilize or that Fear in order to use it (ofc RIP Templars and Wardens who aren't allowed to have a good CC because #ZOS). Just like how the good Sorcs were using Dawnbreaker a few patches ago.

Bad Idea. We have a stun that is melee range in streak. BTW that gives the opponent CC immunity so it will negate a rune cage rotation for 5 sec. As a sorc I don't want anyone near me. A ranged CC fits the sorcs play style . Maybe reduce the range a bit but not to 8m.

The only long-ranged CC any class should have must be both dodgeable and blockable (i.e., Javelin). If you want a powerful unblockable undodgeable CC to time your burst around, you need to be willing to sacrifice positioning in order use it.

Feanor

bardx86 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

You know i was thinking. What if the frags proc was increase to 50% to account for the reduced rune cage damage?

ZOS seldom reverts nerfs, and the forum would explode.

bardx86

Feanor wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

You know i was thinking. What if the frags proc was increase to 50% to account for the reduced rune cage damage?

ZOS seldom reverts nerfs, and the forum would explode.

Sorry I meant the rate of the proc not the damage. Less RNG would be nice.

Vesper_BR

code65536 wrote: »

How about this?

1. Rework frags
   • Give instant cast and reduced cost proc to Crystal Frags, Crystal Blast, and whatever the base skill is.
   • Remove the increased damage from the instant cast proc
   • Give Frags its stun back (but now without the increased damage)
   • Keep Blast's AoE damage, but remove its stun (so now it has an instant cast proc, but doesn't stun)
   • Now we have two equally-attractive morphs; the PvE sorc will want Blast for the added AoE damage (whereas before, nobody in their right mind would want to use Blast), and the PvP sorc will want Frags for the CC, but without the bonus damage, it wouldn't be as OP as it used to be
2. Make Rune Prison and Rune Cage melee-range abilities, much like the DK's, and revert all other changes made to Rune Cage during this PTS cycle.

What would this fix?

1. Crystal Blast will be actually useful.
2. Rune Cage keeps its 5s duration, unblockability and undodgeability, but is now a short-range CC. That's a good tradeoff for the raw power of that 5s, unblockable, unreflectable, undodgeable CC.
3. Sorcs get back their old long-ranged CC--which was more balanced than Rune Cage because it was blockable/dodgeable/reflectable. But now without the damage bonus.

Everyone's happy, right? @ZOS_Wrobel

Good suggestion.

bardx86

Feanor wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

You know i was thinking. What if the frags proc was increase to 50% to account for the reduced rune cage damage?

ZOS seldom reverts nerfs, and the forum would explode.

Sorry I meant the rate of the proc not the damage. Less RNG would be nice.

Vesper_BR wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

How about this?

1. Rework frags
   • Give instant cast and reduced cost proc to Crystal Frags, Crystal Blast, and whatever the base skill is.
   • Remove the increased damage from the instant cast proc
   • Give Frags its stun back (but now without the increased damage)
   • Keep Blast's AoE damage, but remove its stun (so now it has an instant cast proc, but doesn't stun)
   • Now we have two equally-attractive morphs; the PvE sorc will want Blast for the added AoE damage (whereas before, nobody in their right mind would want to use Blast), and the PvP sorc will want Frags for the CC, but without the bonus damage, it wouldn't be as OP as it used to be
2. Make Rune Prison and Rune Cage melee-range abilities, much like the DK's, and revert all other changes made to Rune Cage during this PTS cycle.

What would this fix?

1. Crystal Blast will be actually useful.
2. Rune Cage keeps its 5s duration, unblockability and undodgeability, but is now a short-range CC. That's a good tradeoff for the raw power of that 5s, unblockable, unreflectable, undodgeable CC.
3. Sorcs get back their old long-ranged CC--which was more balanced than Rune Cage because it was blockable/dodgeable/reflectable. But now without the damage bonus.

Everyone's happy, right? @ZOS_Wrobel

Good suggestion.

Terrible Ideas other than making it instant cast. Frag needs more damage not less.

Emma_Overload

One of the big struggles of playing Magicka Sorc is that you're always trying to get OUT of melee range. The last thing we need is an 8 meter Rune Cage that has NO synergy with any of our other abilities.

Beardimus

bardx86 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

You know i was thinking. What if the frags proc was increase to 50% to account for the reduced rune cage damage?

I'm up for that. Personally now I'd prefer to go back, put frag back, Nerf Cage. I was happy running defensive rune and the old Frag playstyle. There was still whining from the bad players but not as much as Cage, it's getting very dull now.

They HAVE to give something back. Cage damage was added because Sorc burst was wet, they can't just dump us back there.

Beardimus

Feanor wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.

Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.

Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.

Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.

Spot on.

And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha

Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.

But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.

Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic

You know i was thinking. What if the frags proc was increase to 50% to account for the reduced rune cage damage?

ZOS seldom reverts nerfs, and the forum would explode.

Sadly true. They cracked on Cage pretty quick. Shame they didn't just undo Frag in the first instance as quick.

All eyes (and breath not held) on the next PTS notes.

I'd love to hear more from the class rep side now on all this.

Feanor

@Beardimus

Sorcerers: See above with Rune Cage
Tasear has a document for pet bugs ongoing pet bugs.
Still lacking cc options, feeling tied to Rune Cage
Stamina Sorcerers want to get more out of their class (bars dominated by weapon/generic abilities) and want to bring more to a group.
Sorcs want frag to stun. What about a new Crystal Blast proc which ccs but doesn’t deal bonus damage? Could reduce the damage of the base ability and increase the damage of Crystal Frag’s proc to avoid the “high damage ability having a stun” issue
Overall looking forward to playing with shortened snare durations
The PvE problem of being in raid just to provide Liquid Lightning synergy while being carried by inefficient gear was communicated.
Sorcerer healers also not bringing anything unique or class oriented to group

I don’t expect anything good.

Beardimus

Feanor wrote: »

@Beardimus

Sorcerers: See above with Rune Cage
Tasear has a document for pet bugs ongoing pet bugs.
Still lacking cc options, feeling tied to Rune Cage
Stamina Sorcerers want to get more out of their class (bars dominated by weapon/generic abilities) and want to bring more to a group.
Sorcs want frag to stun. What about a new Crystal Blast proc which ccs but doesn’t deal bonus damage? Could reduce the damage of the base ability and increase the damage of Crystal Frag’s proc to avoid the “high damage ability having a stun” issue
Overall looking forward to playing with shortened snare durations
The PvE problem of being in raid just to provide Liquid Lightning synergy while being carried by inefficient gear was communicated.
Sorcerer healers also not bringing anything unique or class oriented to group

I don’t expect anything good.

hmm. Frag needs some proper thought. As that solution up there would be 20% down on power from what it was on tool tip plus now lacks empower. Not that we empowered every Frag, but the mighty ones sure were.

Prior to cage Sorcs were tied to reach, i avoided it as not my playstyle so cage only option, before the damage. now we losing the damage and nerfing the rest of it so who knows. back to reach meta. Just all feels confused

bardx86

Beardimus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Beardimus

Sorcerers: See above with Rune Cage
Tasear has a document for pet bugs ongoing pet bugs.
Still lacking cc options, feeling tied to Rune Cage
Stamina Sorcerers want to get more out of their class (bars dominated by weapon/generic abilities) and want to bring more to a group.
Sorcs want frag to stun. What about a new Crystal Blast proc which ccs but doesn’t deal bonus damage? Could reduce the damage of the base ability and increase the damage of Crystal Frag’s proc to avoid the “high damage ability having a stun” issue
Overall looking forward to playing with shortened snare durations
The PvE problem of being in raid just to provide Liquid Lightning synergy while being carried by inefficient gear was communicated.
Sorcerer healers also not bringing anything unique or class oriented to group

I don’t expect anything good.

hmm. Frag needs some proper thought. As that solution up there would be 20% down on power from what it was on tool tip plus now lacks empower. Not that we empowered every Frag, but the mighty ones sure were.

Prior to cage Sorcs were tied to reach, i avoided it as not my playstyle so cage only option, before the damage. now we losing the damage and nerfing the rest of it so who knows. back to reach meta. Just all feels confused

Damage needs to go up not down. What the Hell do these class reps even play a Sorc?

MakoFore

its giving a class with so much timed burst - a strong CC thats the issue. if dk had rune- ie. fossilize it wouldnt be a problem, the problem is a class having all the skills- curse, frag, rune, endless fury- and a meteor- all capable of hitting in 1 second window- which is unavoidable- and unhealable. in isolation- rune isnt broken- but on a class that has that much power- it suddenly makes all the difference.

Beardimus

MakoFore wrote: »

its giving a class with so much timed burst - a strong CC thats the issue. if dk had rune- ie. fossilize it wouldnt be a problem, the problem is a class having all the skills- curse, frag, rune, endless fury- and a meteor- all capable of hitting in 1 second window- which is unavoidable- and unhealable. in isolation- rune isnt broken- but on a class that has that much power- it suddenly makes all the difference.

I hear you, but burst IS the sorc thing. So you cant alter all those skills around it and end up with a class without definition.

And the problem is Cage was Cage before. All that was added was damage (now going) a 2.5 or 5 sec Cc makes no difference to a burst class as you say, CCed = dead for everyone against everyone.

Our challenge is no one really moaned about Frag before the nerf. Sure people moaned about Sorcs, but as we now ALL know - people always moan about sorcs - but I digress. People werent specifically kicking off in volume about Frag - BUT ZOS looked at data (i presume or made a guess) and decided it was OP and nerfed it. Sorcs then had no burst, for 6 months - two patches, hitting like wet lettuce, so Cage was the fix.

Now the world loses its mind and every skill is under question. And they back and forth on what to do. And I think most sorcs would agree, that had we left Frag as is - changed nothing on Sorcs these last 3 patches Sorcs would have been happy - AND there wouldnt be all this increased hate.

Simply tho - we cant go back to Dragonbones and have less damage, stuck in Reach meta and Blades ruling the roost.