4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.

pieratsos

Checkmath wrote: »

so what would you suggest for both morphs, so that they are decent with some kind of counterplay?

Revert the nerfs. Remove rune cage from the game. Make defensive rune base ability. Then morphs either deal dmg, give a hot, apply a buff/debuff. Anything can work.

Then give frags its stun back. There you go, plenty of counterplay

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Wth do you think other people play in duels if not cheese? There are no "non cheese" builds in duels, that's why they can't be taken seriously anymore.

So go play a pet sorc and stop complaining about sorc being bottom tier in duels, everyone else is abusing broken bull*** anyway.


All these "bans" are player made choices - if you think sorc is too weak without pets then make the case to the one making the rules.

pieratsos wrote: »

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

Mediocre sustained damage (thanks to Curse still better than burst oriented stamina builds for example), best burst in the entire fkn game (do I really need to link the math again?) and you atleast have a CC (bow builds & Wardens don't).

Also of course tank builds survive burst. Those with 25k+ health will live through it (and any other burst) - you need sustained dmg or defiles to ever have a chance of killing those builds which means sorcs aren't the only ones struggling vs those. Not even close.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.

Yes, I bring up medium armor because when someone says "sorcs are sub par against everything Q.Q" I feel the urge to gently remind that they are not. Not even close.

Not now, not 2-3 patches ago, not ever.

Inb4 "but pet sorcs are cheese and don't count". By that same logic I could say heavy armor bleedblades are cheese and don't count either, so sNB is the weakest class for duels derp derp

maboleth

I still see duelings on PC EU, esp. on certain spots, preferably DC areas, though they have been reduced due to Battlegrounds.

Derra

Checkmath wrote: »

@Derra
So what you mean is that only a OP rune cage will be ever used. if there is a nerf in any way making it less OP, it will only be a zerg tool and not more.

@Checkmath
Runecage and it´s useability/usefulness can not be evaluated only looking at the single ability but only when looking at the sorc class as a whole and what skills are generally used:

I´m sayinc that sorc is so starved for ability slots (because it´s abilities are mostly very single purpose compared to other classes) that an ability that does not have a very unique (and effective) functionality will not be used.

Why should someone use a stun that has no clear advantage over using masterstaff + reach. Reach is already a pretty strong cc mechanic. Outside of fear and petrify i´d say reach is the strongest CC mechanic that you can have on a skillslot - because it comes as your anytimed ability.

So yeah the ability won´t be used if it´s nerfed. The problem however does not lie with the ability - it lies with the design of the complete rest of the sorc toolkit being so onedimensional it doesn´t allow to swap skills around without severly impacting performance.

In the end - yes it won´t be used unless it´s better than any alternative skill (mines, harness, boundless, surge) and additionally better than using masterreach as a CC. Because that´s the cost of slotting it.
Imo a skill that fits on this description can only be labeled as OP.

Checkmath

Yeah problem probably is that zur devs sometimes only look at single abilities instead at the whole class. Sorcs crowded barspace is a known issue since months. But as said, if we only see changes to single abilities, sorcs will never be happy.

Feanor

Checkmath wrote: »

Yeah problem probably is that zur devs sometimes only look at single abilities instead at the whole class. Sorcs crowded barspace is a known issue since months. But as said, if we only see changes to single abilities, sorcs will never be happy.

Months? Years rather. I play the class since March 2014. It was always more or less the same thing over and over and over.

Jsmalls

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Wth do you think other people play in duels if not cheese? There are no "non cheese" builds in duels, that's why they can't be taken seriously anymore.

So go play a pet sorc and stop complaining about sorc being bottom tier in duels, everyone else is abusing broken bull*** anyway.


All these "bans" are player made choices - if you think sorc is too weak without pets then make the case to the one making the rules.

pieratsos wrote: »

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

Mediocre sustained damage (thanks to Curse still better than burst oriented stamina builds for example), best burst in the entire fkn game (do I really need to link the math again?) and you atleast have a CC (bow builds & Wardens don't).

Also of course tank builds survive burst. Those with 25k+ health will live through it (and any other burst) - you need sustained dmg or defiles to ever have a chance of killing those builds which means sorcs aren't the only ones struggling vs those. Not even close.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.

Yes, I bring up medium armor because when someone says "sorcs are sub par against everything Q.Q" I feel the urge to gently remind that they are not. Not even close.

Not now, not 2-3 patches ago, not ever.

Inb4 "but pet sorcs are cheese and don't count". By that same logic I could say heavy armor bleedblades are cheese and don't count either, so sNB is the weakest class for duels derp derp

@DDuke

This guy thinks Curse is sustained damage I'm dying.

4-6k damage every 4-5 seconds ignoring the need to apply defenses is not sustained damage. It's burst damage. That's literally 1k damage a second. That's laughable.

Inb4 but my mathhhh tooltip shows its doing 18k a second, and you can't out heal that with my 24k stamina Vigor. (Conviently ignoring impen, increased healing through other means, a decent players Resistances, and reduced damage and mitigation tools) Instead you take your paper nightblade who gets killed if sneezed on and acts like a MagSorcs burst is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

When in reality with Max damage setups against any decent player (your unique build is not included as a decent player sorry) you're doing maybe 15k damage with a perfect burst and walking away without a kill even if you executed everything perfectly.

You can throw numbers in all you want, but reality is a whole nother game. My friend tooltips a 12k whip and smacks me for his tooltip (granted I'm a vampire but still boast 20k spell resistance) while I'll tooltip a 18k frag and hit him for a 7k crit. That's reality.

And absolute BEST best in the game right?

Add up a mDKs Dot setup with leap into the mix. It takes 5-6 GCD to setup but so does a MagSorcs. Then add ALL the damage calculated in the GCD the leap goes off and you'll probably be sitting Very close to ohmygerd OP MagSorc meteor burst. Can also do it with a MagWarden with fletcherfly, deep fissure, meteor, imbue, shock clench in 1 gcd and be VERY close (if not higher MagWarden ice comet tooltip is no joke).

There are TONS of burst in the game. Numbers don't mean reality in this game, there is a lot past that.

That's why defile and sustained damage kicks the *** out of burst in this meta.

Because a burst that does 20k is made up for in 1 gcd from an instant heal/Dodge.

But keep focusing on what you think is important.

DuskMarine

Checkmath wrote: »

Yeah problem probably is that zur devs sometimes only look at single abilities instead at the whole class. Sorcs crowded barspace is a known issue since months. But as said, if we only see changes to single abilities, sorcs will never be happy.

to be frank im a sorc main as its one of my best characters and the amount of crap the class can keep up with its just in order to truly balance it theyd have to rework the class 100% throwing everyone out of the room and saying this is happening deal with it. because you cant even bring up the 2 main issues sorcs really have that make them stronger than the other classes without fail because people will just flame you for it. and its always has been and will be shields, and damage output(even if their sustain is crud which alot of us know how to get around that issue nowadays to where its not problem). to make the class not the best in the game in every way shape and form they really would just have to take it to the ground and bring it back up.

Feanor

It’s funny you can replace 4.1.2 with 4.1.4 in the thread title and it’s still true.

bardx86

..

just a small reminder, that most people are not capable of dodging re-actively to a certain skill, additionally only medium armor classes will be able to dodge that frequently to avoid the stun. magicka classes can now choose between dodging or getting stunned, both drains a lot of stamina especially in no cp. additionally the mighty combo of meteor and rune cage still is a guaranteed meteor hit, since one stuns when blocking, meanwhile the other when dodging. maybe a tweak in the combo is needed, so that the frag or mages fury also hit with certainty.

and if you disagree that much with me and think that magsorcs are now useless, then bring a decent suggestion, which allows counterplay to the dangerous combo without gutting sorcs.
[/quote]

But thats the point, they didn't just make it dodge able did they? They removed the damage as well. BTW you are looking at this in a very limited way which makes me question your ability to be a class rep. The damage and stun where removed from frags and also empower was changed. These issue need to be looked at as a whole when deciding to change things. Fine make rune dodge-able however please look at the damage potential of a Sorcs rotation at the same time.

Having to use a ult to kill someone everytime is a bad game design.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Wth do you think other people play in duels if not cheese? There are no "non cheese" builds in duels, that's why they can't be taken seriously anymore.

So go play a pet sorc and stop complaining about sorc being bottom tier in duels, everyone else is abusing broken bull*** anyway.


All these "bans" are player made choices - if you think sorc is too weak without pets then make the case to the one making the rules.

pieratsos wrote: »

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

Mediocre sustained damage (thanks to Curse still better than burst oriented stamina builds for example), best burst in the entire fkn game (do I really need to link the math again?) and you atleast have a CC (bow builds & Wardens don't).

Also of course tank builds survive burst. Those with 25k+ health will live through it (and any other burst) - you need sustained dmg or defiles to ever have a chance of killing those builds which means sorcs aren't the only ones struggling vs those. Not even close.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.

Yes, I bring up medium armor because when someone says "sorcs are sub par against everything Q.Q" I feel the urge to gently remind that they are not. Not even close.

Not now, not 2-3 patches ago, not ever.

Inb4 "but pet sorcs are cheese and don't count". By that same logic I could say heavy armor bleedblades are cheese and don't count either, so sNB is the weakest class for duels derp derp

Complaining? Where did you see me complaining? I was just pointing out some facts. The point of mentioning duelling wasnt to judge the class based on duelling non cheese. I didnt say the class was trash because they were not good in "balanced" duels. I was just pointing out that the class was meh against anyone decent. Mostly being able just to force a draw by just shieldstacking their *** off. Hence why people use the term subpar.

Just because sorcs have the best burst in the game it doesnt mean that it was enough to kill people. They have the worst sustained dmg in the game. A curse blowing up every now and then isnt sustained dmg. When sorcs couldnt "one shot" someone then they wouldnt get a kill no matter what they did. Its not the same as other classes. Most classes have/had different options. Whether its defiles or dots or whatever. Doesnt mean they didnt struggle but at least they could do something. Sorcs didnt have much of a choice because the entire class was and is still shoehorned into one playstyle. You either "one shot" someone or you dont get a kill. And no, a 25k+ hp build isnt a tank for everyone. Like i said in a previous post. The term tank varies for different classes. It was extremely easy to become a "tank" against a sorc before summerset. This was the source of the problem of the class not doing good against anyone decent. Because the burst wasnt enough and therefore not being able to get a kill no matter what you do. Its the same endless cycle when it comes to sorcs which makes the class so toxic. It either feels useless when u cant one shot someone or extremely OP when you can. If you had trouble with sorc burst prior to summerset thats because u are playing a squishy build. Not because sorc burst was super high. Learn the difference.

Medium armor being sub par doesnt mean that everyone else isnt or that they are top 2-3. Thanks for basically confirming what i said. That you are holding a grudge against everyone and everything because medium sucks.

Inb4 pet sorcs dont count? Nope, wasnt going to say that. But i understand why you think this way. Like always you entirely missed the point because of ur sorc hate and because you believe that the entire game is balanced around you. Aka, sorcs were good against ur medium armor builds, therefore they are top 2-3 in cyrodiil. *Facepalm*

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Wth do you think other people play in duels if not cheese? There are no "non cheese" builds in duels, that's why they can't be taken seriously anymore.

So go play a pet sorc and stop complaining about sorc being bottom tier in duels, everyone else is abusing broken bull*** anyway.


All these "bans" are player made choices - if you think sorc is too weak without pets then make the case to the one making the rules.

pieratsos wrote: »

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

Mediocre sustained damage (thanks to Curse still better than burst oriented stamina builds for example), best burst in the entire fkn game (do I really need to link the math again?) and you atleast have a CC (bow builds & Wardens don't).

Also of course tank builds survive burst. Those with 25k+ health will live through it (and any other burst) - you need sustained dmg or defiles to ever have a chance of killing those builds which means sorcs aren't the only ones struggling vs those. Not even close.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.

Yes, I bring up medium armor because when someone says "sorcs are sub par against everything Q.Q" I feel the urge to gently remind that they are not. Not even close.

Not now, not 2-3 patches ago, not ever.

Inb4 "but pet sorcs are cheese and don't count". By that same logic I could say heavy armor bleedblades are cheese and don't count either, so sNB is the weakest class for duels derp derp

Complaining? Where did you see me complaining? I was just pointing out some facts. The point of mentioning duelling wasnt to judge the class based on duelling non cheese. I didnt say the class was trash because they were not good in "balanced" duels. I was just pointing out that the class was meh against anyone decent. Mostly being able just to force a draw by just shieldstacking their *** off. Hence why people use the term subpar.

Just because sorcs have the best burst in the game it doesnt mean that it was enough to kill people. They have the worst sustained dmg in the game. A curse blowing up every now and then isnt sustained dmg. When sorcs couldnt "one shot" someone then they wouldnt get a kill no matter what they did. Its not the same as other classes. Most classes have/had different options. Whether its defiles or dots or whatever. Doesnt mean they didnt struggle but at least they could do something. Sorcs didnt have much of a choice because the entire class was and is still shoehorned into one playstyle. You either "one shot" someone or you dont get a kill. And no, a 25k+ hp build isnt a tank for everyone. Like i said in a previous post. The term tank varies for different classes. It was extremely easy to become a "tank" against a sorc before summerset. This was the source of the problem of the class not doing good against anyone decent. Because the burst wasnt enough and therefore not being able to get a kill no matter what you do. Its the same endless cycle when it comes to sorcs which makes the class so toxic. It either feels useless when u cant one shot someone or extremely OP when you can. If you had trouble with sorc burst prior to summerset thats because u are playing a squishy build. Not because sorc burst was super high. Learn the difference.

Medium armor being sub par doesnt mean that everyone else isnt or that they are top 2-3. Thanks for basically confirming what i said. That you are holding a grudge against everyone and everything because medium sucks.

Inb4 pet sorcs dont count? Nope, wasnt going to say that. But i understand why you think this way. Like always you entirely missed the point because of ur sorc hate and because you believe that the entire game is balanced around you. Aka, sorcs were good against ur medium armor builds, therefore they are top 2-3 in cyrodiil. *Facepalm*

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me). And when you look at the numbers of their burst and compare to other classes you'll understand why (or do the math on how much burst is required to get rid of their shields...).

Can you say the same about templar? mDK? Warden perhaps?


Sorcs & NBs have (almost) always been the strongest classes, I don't think that's a big revelation to anyone.

Atleast (most) NB mains are capable of admitting that, which is why you don't see many of them QQ'ing about Incap nerf for example. In my personal opinion they didn't even go far enough with it; they should've moved the Major Defile to 120 ulti only as well (wouldn't even affect PvE).

Feanor

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me).

By the same measure one can say StamWarden needs buffs because you don’t see many “nerf StamWarden” threads...

DuskMarine

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me).

By the same measure one can say StamWarden needs buffs because you don’t see many “nerf StamWarden” threads...

stam wardens need buffs but in different areas like their abilities just dont feel like their enough really stamina in general barely utilizes their classes skills to much. its always down to weapons and fighters guild. magicka can utilize like everything.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me).

By the same measure one can say StamWarden needs buffs because you don’t see many “nerf StamWarden” threads...

Dunno if you've paid attention, but there actually were a lot of "nerf stam warden" threads last year. They've since quieted down a lot after nerfs to tree ulti, dodgeable birds etc.

I think stam warden is somewhere in the top 3-4 of builds currently (tough call between mDK & stam warden tbh).

Feanor

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me).

By the same measure one can say StamWarden needs buffs because you don’t see many “nerf StamWarden” threads...

Dunno if you've paid attention, but there actually were a lot of "nerf stam warden" threads last year. They've since quieted down a lot after nerfs to tree ulti, dodgeable birds etc.

I think stam warden is somewhere in the top 3-4 of builds currently (tough call between mDK & stam warden tbh).

I paid attention. StamWarden didn’t utilize cutting dive to the extent magWarden had to anyway, Shimmering Shield is still what it was, they still have the only stam class heal that is good in PvP and thus can run without Rally in favor of FM, and the Subterranean Assault + DBoS synergy is still excellent. Also, AoE major defile with corrupting pollen will be even stronger next patch.

No, the nerf StamWarden threads just got buried in the Sorc OP hype. The class is flying under the radar but still as strong as it ever was.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me).

By the same measure one can say StamWarden needs buffs because you don’t see many “nerf StamWarden” threads...

Dunno if you've paid attention, but there actually were a lot of "nerf stam warden" threads last year. They've since quieted down a lot after nerfs to tree ulti, dodgeable birds etc.

I think stam warden is somewhere in the top 3-4 of builds currently (tough call between mDK & stam warden tbh).

I paid attention. StamWarden didn’t utilize cutting dive to the extent magWarden had to anyway, Shimmering Shield is still what it was, they still have the only stam class heal that is good in PvP and thus can run without Rally in favor of FM, and the Subterranean Assault + DBoS synergy is still excellent. Also, AoE major defile with corrupting pollen will be even stronger next patch.

No, the nerf StamWarden threads just got buried in the Sorc OP hype. The class is flying under the radar but still as strong as it ever was.

I.e. other classes became stronger than stam warden.


And yes, I include stamblade in that "other classes" category as well: Shadow Image buffs, even if mostly QOL changes, Assassin's Will change from 0,7s cast time to instant (huge) etc

... and with sorc Rune Cage, Persistence passive buff, Summerset 2H change, cheaper mines etc etc, as well as Psijic skill line which synergizes very well with sorc toolkit (8% less dmg taken on shields just by having Temporal Guard slotted).

Feanor

You seriously think stamDK, stamPlar and stamSorc are stronger than StamWarden? Erm. Ok. But if you perceive the new persistence passive as a buff and suggest running Temporal guard for the 8% damage reduction and possibly outstanding trolling potential of that Ult when you can run OL or better yet Light‘s Champion, there is not much to discuss either.

DuskMarine

Feanor wrote: »

You seriously think stamDK, stamPlar and stamSorc are stronger than StamWarden? Erm. Ok. But if you perceive the new persistence passive as a buff and suggest running Temporal guard for the 8% damage reduction and possibly outstanding trolling potential of that Ult when you can run OL or better yet Light‘s Champion, there is not much to discuss either.

stam sorcs miles above any other stam class in pvp. its probly one of the best stam classes.

Ender1310

Baz wrote: »

The thing is, rune cage is the last counter to rolly polly stamblade.
If it become dodgeable, stamblade would be god mode more than never.

Imo, the changes should be still does damage, but reduce the CC to 3sec instead of 5

I main magplar btw, rune cage is annoying for sure, but I don't want to see nightblade rolly polly godmode.
Rolly polly took an indirect buff by the Sload changes being a projectile, and they were already at the top of the food chain

There are other counters to roll polly dodgy builds. Theres the beam from the soul gem tree. Theres steel tornado. Theres aoe's. Theres probably some monster helms grothdarrs for one. Tons of counters. Drain stamina poisons. You name it and you can counter rolly polly builds.

Ender1310

I am so not a mag sorc. But ive been playing for ever and have one of each class. My mag sorc does not feel like she needs rune cape damage to blow someone up. Just the stun.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

You seriously think stamDK, stamPlar and stamSorc are stronger than StamWarden? Erm. Ok. But if you perceive the new persistence passive as a buff and suggest running Temporal guard for the 8% damage reduction and possibly outstanding trolling potential of that Ult when you can run OL or better yet Light‘s Champion, there is not much to discuss either.

No, did you read what I wrote?

I think stam warden is somewhere in the top 3-4 of builds currently (tough call between mDK & stam warden tbh).

Keyword: currently.


And currently it is:
mSorc>sNB>mDK/stam Warden (tough call)>stam sorc>rest


Also feel free to think whatever you like about build choices I'd make. I think 8% stronger shields on a class that is mostly based around dmg shield based defense is pretty damn strong, especially in noCP where other modifiers don't dampen the effect of Minor Protection. You can still off bar Meteor.

Ragnaroek93

Magsorcs won't be bad after the patch, the main problem will be that they are locked into two builds, one requires to farm a master staff which is locked behind tough PvE content and the other build is hardcore cheese with pets. Runecage will be so bad that I'd rather play without a stun at all instead of wasting a skill slot for it.

bardx86

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Magsorcs won't be bad after the patch, the main problem will be that they are locked into two builds, one requires to farm a master staff which is locked behind tough PvE content and the other build is hardcore cheese with pets. Runecage will be so bad that I'd rather play without a stun at all instead of wasting a skill slot for it.

NB's will still cry nerf as well.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Wth do you think other people play in duels if not cheese? There are no "non cheese" builds in duels, that's why they can't be taken seriously anymore.

So go play a pet sorc and stop complaining about sorc being bottom tier in duels, everyone else is abusing broken bull*** anyway.


All these "bans" are player made choices - if you think sorc is too weak without pets then make the case to the one making the rules.

pieratsos wrote: »

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

Mediocre sustained damage (thanks to Curse still better than burst oriented stamina builds for example), best burst in the entire fkn game (do I really need to link the math again?) and you atleast have a CC (bow builds & Wardens don't).

Also of course tank builds survive burst. Those with 25k+ health will live through it (and any other burst) - you need sustained dmg or defiles to ever have a chance of killing those builds which means sorcs aren't the only ones struggling vs those. Not even close.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.

Yes, I bring up medium armor because when someone says "sorcs are sub par against everything Q.Q" I feel the urge to gently remind that they are not. Not even close.

Not now, not 2-3 patches ago, not ever.

Inb4 "but pet sorcs are cheese and don't count". By that same logic I could say heavy armor bleedblades are cheese and don't count either, so sNB is the weakest class for duels derp derp

Complaining? Where did you see me complaining? I was just pointing out some facts. The point of mentioning duelling wasnt to judge the class based on duelling non cheese. I didnt say the class was trash because they were not good in "balanced" duels. I was just pointing out that the class was meh against anyone decent. Mostly being able just to force a draw by just shieldstacking their *** off. Hence why people use the term subpar.

Just because sorcs have the best burst in the game it doesnt mean that it was enough to kill people. They have the worst sustained dmg in the game. A curse blowing up every now and then isnt sustained dmg. When sorcs couldnt "one shot" someone then they wouldnt get a kill no matter what they did. Its not the same as other classes. Most classes have/had different options. Whether its defiles or dots or whatever. Doesnt mean they didnt struggle but at least they could do something. Sorcs didnt have much of a choice because the entire class was and is still shoehorned into one playstyle. You either "one shot" someone or you dont get a kill. And no, a 25k+ hp build isnt a tank for everyone. Like i said in a previous post. The term tank varies for different classes. It was extremely easy to become a "tank" against a sorc before summerset. This was the source of the problem of the class not doing good against anyone decent. Because the burst wasnt enough and therefore not being able to get a kill no matter what you do. Its the same endless cycle when it comes to sorcs which makes the class so toxic. It either feels useless when u cant one shot someone or extremely OP when you can. If you had trouble with sorc burst prior to summerset thats because u are playing a squishy build. Not because sorc burst was super high. Learn the difference.

Medium armor being sub par doesnt mean that everyone else isnt or that they are top 2-3. Thanks for basically confirming what i said. That you are holding a grudge against everyone and everything because medium sucks.

Inb4 pet sorcs dont count? Nope, wasnt going to say that. But i understand why you think this way. Like always you entirely missed the point because of ur sorc hate and because you believe that the entire game is balanced around you. Aka, sorcs were good against ur medium armor builds, therefore they are top 2-3 in cyrodiil. *Facepalm*

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me). And when you look at the numbers of their burst and compare to other classes you'll understand why (or do the math on how much burst is required to get rid of their shields...).

Can you say the same about templar? mDK? Warden perhaps?


Sorcs & NBs have (almost) always been the strongest classes, I don't think that's a big revelation to anyone.

Atleast (most) NB mains are capable of admitting that, which is why you don't see many of them QQ'ing about Incap nerf for example. In my personal opinion they didn't even go far enough with it; they should've moved the Major Defile to 120 ulti only as well (wouldn't even affect PvE).

Arent you the one who posted this in this thread?

DDuke wrote:

I have a feeling most of these forum posters I take issue with are players who haven't even reached CP cap, have limited experience on other classes (probably have only one character: a sorc) and quite frankly don't even realize how they continuously contradict themselves with flawed arguments.

Gz, you have thrown ur entire argument out of the window. But ok, lets just ignore that for a minute.

So your standards of judging which class is the best is nerf threads and 1vX videos. Well, i guess you get another facepalm. Whats next? Looking at dummy parses?

Funny thing is that if you actually use ur standards to judge which class is overperforming then you are literally contradicting ur own arguments.... again. Kinda ironic for someone blaming other people of contradicting their own flawed arguments. Nerf sorc threads prior to summerset were only a fraction of what they are now and a few years back (sorc glory days). So according to you in those patches in between sorc performance drastically decreased.

Also, 1vX videos were flooded by medium armor builds and mDKs. Just look at kodi's top 5 series based on all platforms where any player could send a clip. Almost every single video was bombarded with mDKs and medium armor builds (not just stamblades). Mag sorcs average one feature in every other video. Even magplars were featured more than sorcs.

So according to you medium armor and mDKs were on top while sorcs were mediocre at best. Either your standards are completely stupid or it seems like you missed a few months of the game.

Inb4 Kodi's videos doesnt count.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Wth do you think other people play in duels if not cheese? There are no "non cheese" builds in duels, that's why they can't be taken seriously anymore.

So go play a pet sorc and stop complaining about sorc being bottom tier in duels, everyone else is abusing broken bull*** anyway.


All these "bans" are player made choices - if you think sorc is too weak without pets then make the case to the one making the rules.

pieratsos wrote: »

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

Mediocre sustained damage (thanks to Curse still better than burst oriented stamina builds for example), best burst in the entire fkn game (do I really need to link the math again?) and you atleast have a CC (bow builds & Wardens don't).

Also of course tank builds survive burst. Those with 25k+ health will live through it (and any other burst) - you need sustained dmg or defiles to ever have a chance of killing those builds which means sorcs aren't the only ones struggling vs those. Not even close.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.

Yes, I bring up medium armor because when someone says "sorcs are sub par against everything Q.Q" I feel the urge to gently remind that they are not. Not even close.

Not now, not 2-3 patches ago, not ever.

Inb4 "but pet sorcs are cheese and don't count". By that same logic I could say heavy armor bleedblades are cheese and don't count either, so sNB is the weakest class for duels derp derp

Complaining? Where did you see me complaining? I was just pointing out some facts. The point of mentioning duelling wasnt to judge the class based on duelling non cheese. I didnt say the class was trash because they were not good in "balanced" duels. I was just pointing out that the class was meh against anyone decent. Mostly being able just to force a draw by just shieldstacking their *** off. Hence why people use the term subpar.

Just because sorcs have the best burst in the game it doesnt mean that it was enough to kill people. They have the worst sustained dmg in the game. A curse blowing up every now and then isnt sustained dmg. When sorcs couldnt "one shot" someone then they wouldnt get a kill no matter what they did. Its not the same as other classes. Most classes have/had different options. Whether its defiles or dots or whatever. Doesnt mean they didnt struggle but at least they could do something. Sorcs didnt have much of a choice because the entire class was and is still shoehorned into one playstyle. You either "one shot" someone or you dont get a kill. And no, a 25k+ hp build isnt a tank for everyone. Like i said in a previous post. The term tank varies for different classes. It was extremely easy to become a "tank" against a sorc before summerset. This was the source of the problem of the class not doing good against anyone decent. Because the burst wasnt enough and therefore not being able to get a kill no matter what you do. Its the same endless cycle when it comes to sorcs which makes the class so toxic. It either feels useless when u cant one shot someone or extremely OP when you can. If you had trouble with sorc burst prior to summerset thats because u are playing a squishy build. Not because sorc burst was super high. Learn the difference.

Medium armor being sub par doesnt mean that everyone else isnt or that they are top 2-3. Thanks for basically confirming what i said. That you are holding a grudge against everyone and everything because medium sucks.

Inb4 pet sorcs dont count? Nope, wasnt going to say that. But i understand why you think this way. Like always you entirely missed the point because of ur sorc hate and because you believe that the entire game is balanced around you. Aka, sorcs were good against ur medium armor builds, therefore they are top 2-3 in cyrodiil. *Facepalm*

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me). And when you look at the numbers of their burst and compare to other classes you'll understand why (or do the math on how much burst is required to get rid of their shields...).

Can you say the same about templar? mDK? Warden perhaps?


Sorcs & NBs have (almost) always been the strongest classes, I don't think that's a big revelation to anyone.

Atleast (most) NB mains are capable of admitting that, which is why you don't see many of them QQ'ing about Incap nerf for example. In my personal opinion they didn't even go far enough with it; they should've moved the Major Defile to 120 ulti only as well (wouldn't even affect PvE).

So your standards of judging which class is the best is nerf threads and 1vX videos. Gz, you get another facepalm.

Funny thing is that if you actually use ur standards to judge which class is overperforming then you are literally contradicting ur own arguments. Nerf sorc threads prior to summerset were only a fraction of what they are now and 1vX videos were flooded by medium armor builds and mDKs. Just look at kodi's top 5 series based on all platforms where any player could send a clip. Almost every single video was bombarded with mDKs and medium armor builds (not just stamblades). Mag sorcs average one feature in every other video. Even magplars were featured more than sorcs.

So according to you medium armor and mDKs were on top while sorcs were mediocre at best. Either your standards are completely stupid or it seems like you missed a few months of the game.

Inb4 Kodi's videos doesnt count.

Yeah, I use media exposure amongst many other things such as math and logic to form opinions. Shocking.

You should try it some time, because the whole "mSorc is weak because I say so" isn't really a convincing line of thought.


...and regarding those "top 5 series", there's so many Sorc videos out there that I wouldn't be surprised if he simply didn't include those because of that. That's what I'd do if I hosted such a series on my channel.

It's much more impressive (and thus more enjoyable to watch) when people do well on a less popular class/build rather than on a meta one.


I wish there was a way of seeing how many search results youtube gives, but on google it is:
"eso stamina nightblade pvp" 50 200 results
"eso magicka nightblade pvp" 43 200 results
"eso magicka sorcerer pvp" 42 000 results
"eso magicka templar pvp" 33 600 results
"eso stamina sorcerer pvp" 33 600 results
"eso stamina dragonknight pvp" 32 500 results
"eso stamina templar pvp" 33 100 results
"eso magicka dragonknight pvp" 28 000 results


Just to give an rough idea.


Also, "nerf sorc shields" has been a popular topic for 4 years. Should I proceed to link 100+ threads? You must be blind if you think sorcs aren't/haven't always been the first or second most complained about class in the game.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Wth do you think other people play in duels if not cheese? There are no "non cheese" builds in duels, that's why they can't be taken seriously anymore.

So go play a pet sorc and stop complaining about sorc being bottom tier in duels, everyone else is abusing broken bull*** anyway.


All these "bans" are player made choices - if you think sorc is too weak without pets then make the case to the one making the rules.

pieratsos wrote: »

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

Mediocre sustained damage (thanks to Curse still better than burst oriented stamina builds for example), best burst in the entire fkn game (do I really need to link the math again?) and you atleast have a CC (bow builds & Wardens don't).

Also of course tank builds survive burst. Those with 25k+ health will live through it (and any other burst) - you need sustained dmg or defiles to ever have a chance of killing those builds which means sorcs aren't the only ones struggling vs those. Not even close.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.

Yes, I bring up medium armor because when someone says "sorcs are sub par against everything Q.Q" I feel the urge to gently remind that they are not. Not even close.

Not now, not 2-3 patches ago, not ever.

Inb4 "but pet sorcs are cheese and don't count". By that same logic I could say heavy armor bleedblades are cheese and don't count either, so sNB is the weakest class for duels derp derp

Complaining? Where did you see me complaining? I was just pointing out some facts. The point of mentioning duelling wasnt to judge the class based on duelling non cheese. I didnt say the class was trash because they were not good in "balanced" duels. I was just pointing out that the class was meh against anyone decent. Mostly being able just to force a draw by just shieldstacking their *** off. Hence why people use the term subpar.

Just because sorcs have the best burst in the game it doesnt mean that it was enough to kill people. They have the worst sustained dmg in the game. A curse blowing up every now and then isnt sustained dmg. When sorcs couldnt "one shot" someone then they wouldnt get a kill no matter what they did. Its not the same as other classes. Most classes have/had different options. Whether its defiles or dots or whatever. Doesnt mean they didnt struggle but at least they could do something. Sorcs didnt have much of a choice because the entire class was and is still shoehorned into one playstyle. You either "one shot" someone or you dont get a kill. And no, a 25k+ hp build isnt a tank for everyone. Like i said in a previous post. The term tank varies for different classes. It was extremely easy to become a "tank" against a sorc before summerset. This was the source of the problem of the class not doing good against anyone decent. Because the burst wasnt enough and therefore not being able to get a kill no matter what you do. Its the same endless cycle when it comes to sorcs which makes the class so toxic. It either feels useless when u cant one shot someone or extremely OP when you can. If you had trouble with sorc burst prior to summerset thats because u are playing a squishy build. Not because sorc burst was super high. Learn the difference.

Medium armor being sub par doesnt mean that everyone else isnt or that they are top 2-3. Thanks for basically confirming what i said. That you are holding a grudge against everyone and everything because medium sucks.

Inb4 pet sorcs dont count? Nope, wasnt going to say that. But i understand why you think this way. Like always you entirely missed the point because of ur sorc hate and because you believe that the entire game is balanced around you. Aka, sorcs were good against ur medium armor builds, therefore they are top 2-3 in cyrodiil. *Facepalm*

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me). And when you look at the numbers of their burst and compare to other classes you'll understand why (or do the math on how much burst is required to get rid of their shields...).

Can you say the same about templar? mDK? Warden perhaps?


Sorcs & NBs have (almost) always been the strongest classes, I don't think that's a big revelation to anyone.

Atleast (most) NB mains are capable of admitting that, which is why you don't see many of them QQ'ing about Incap nerf for example. In my personal opinion they didn't even go far enough with it; they should've moved the Major Defile to 120 ulti only as well (wouldn't even affect PvE).

So your standards of judging which class is the best is nerf threads and 1vX videos. Gz, you get another facepalm.

Funny thing is that if you actually use ur standards to judge which class is overperforming then you are literally contradicting ur own arguments. Nerf sorc threads prior to summerset were only a fraction of what they are now and 1vX videos were flooded by medium armor builds and mDKs. Just look at kodi's top 5 series based on all platforms where any player could send a clip. Almost every single video was bombarded with mDKs and medium armor builds (not just stamblades). Mag sorcs average one feature in every other video. Even magplars were featured more than sorcs.

So according to you medium armor and mDKs were on top while sorcs were mediocre at best. Either your standards are completely stupid or it seems like you missed a few months of the game.

Inb4 Kodi's videos doesnt count.

Yeah, I use media exposure amongst many other things such as math and logic to form opinions. Shocking.

You should try it some time, because the whole "mSorc is weak because I say so" isn't really a convincing line of thought.


...and regarding those "top 5 series", there's so many Sorc videos out there that I wouldn't be surprised if he simply didn't include those because of that. That's what I'd do if I hosted such a series on my channel.

It's much more impressive (and thus more enjoyable to watch) when people do well on a less popular class/build rather than on a meta one.


I wish there was a way of seeing how many search results youtube gives, but on google it is:
"eso stamina nightblade pvp" 50 200 results
"eso magicka nightblade pvp" 43 200 results
"eso magicka sorcerer pvp" 42 000 results
"eso magicka templar pvp" 33 600 results
"eso stamina sorcerer pvp" 33 600 results
"eso stamina dragonknight pvp" 32 500 results
"eso stamina templar pvp" 33 100 results
"eso magicka dragonknight pvp" 28 000 results


Just to give an rough idea.


Also, "nerf sorc shields" has been a popular topic for 4 years. Should I proceed to link 100+ threads? You must be blind if you think sorcs aren't/haven't always been the first or second most complained about class in the game.

Goes back and forth contradicting his own arguments.
Tells me that the player who made the series has a "grudge" against popular classes even tho stamblades were the most featured class in the series.
Then uses google search even tho the discussion is about 2-3 patches prior to summerset.

But im the one that needs to try logic and im blind. Ok. Lmao. Not sure if you actually know what logic means.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorcerers have won dueling tournaments in the past (e.g. Mythical Playground tournament of 2016, one of the biggest tournaments in PC EU).

Not that it matters tho, the current dueling scene is a toxic wasteland where fun goes to die. If you think mag sorcs have it rough there, go try a medium armor build.

Or anything that isn't a bloody tank with Sloads & Bleeds.

Not that i agree with everything he said but what are you even talking about.
He is talking about the 2-3 patches before summerset and non cheese setups and you went back to 2016 and the most cheesy setups you can possibly play ? Is this how you are rarely wrong? By creating a straw man anytime you are actually wrong just to make it look that you are right?

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

I go back to 2016 because that's the last big dueling tournament on PC EU I remember. Duels are dead here. Irrelevant.

Too many *** tank builds.


Edit: there actually was a smaller dueling tournament back in last December now that I recall - a mSorc came 2nd place while a S&B tankblade won.


That said, the Alik'r dueling spot is on the way to Clothier Survey so I do stop by from time to time to see if the meta is any healthier. Pet sorcerers were widely considered the strongest dueling class in CWC patch (yes, after Frag nerfs) & everyone I saw playing one kept wrecking people.

Last patch (Dragon Bones) I wouldn't know though, stopped doing crafting writs for a while.


It's entirely possible the sorcs on PC EU just happen to be better at the game than on NA & perceptions differ because of that (I hope I didn't just trigger anyone with this speculation).


Also if you read the second paragraph of my sentence, I really couldn't care less about cheesy pet sorcs fighting cheesy tank builds with bleeds & oblivion damage.

You can complain about mSorc not being top dog in duels anymore (atleast on PC NA), but meanwhile medium armor builds don't even show up at duel spot because of how toxic the meta is.

Again, talking about non cheese and you bring up pet sorcs which is like the first or second thing getting banned from any 1v1 tournament because of how much cheese it is.

Wth do you think other people play in duels if not cheese? There are no "non cheese" builds in duels, that's why they can't be taken seriously anymore.

So go play a pet sorc and stop complaining about sorc being bottom tier in duels, everyone else is abusing broken bull*** anyway.


All these "bans" are player made choices - if you think sorc is too weak without pets then make the case to the one making the rules.

pieratsos wrote: »

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

Mediocre sustained damage (thanks to Curse still better than burst oriented stamina builds for example), best burst in the entire fkn game (do I really need to link the math again?) and you atleast have a CC (bow builds & Wardens don't).

Also of course tank builds survive burst. Those with 25k+ health will live through it (and any other burst) - you need sustained dmg or defiles to ever have a chance of killing those builds which means sorcs aren't the only ones struggling vs those. Not even close.

pieratsos wrote: »

P.S. What the hell does medium armor builds have to do with this? The conversation was about you telling someone that sorcs were always top 2-3 and someone refuting that by telling you that for 2-3 patches non cheese sorcs were subpar against anyone decent. And your answer is "but medium armor is worse"? Its like you hold a personal grudge at everyone and everything because medium armor sucks.

Yes, I bring up medium armor because when someone says "sorcs are sub par against everything Q.Q" I feel the urge to gently remind that they are not. Not even close.

Not now, not 2-3 patches ago, not ever.

Inb4 "but pet sorcs are cheese and don't count". By that same logic I could say heavy armor bleedblades are cheese and don't count either, so sNB is the weakest class for duels derp derp

Complaining? Where did you see me complaining? I was just pointing out some facts. The point of mentioning duelling wasnt to judge the class based on duelling non cheese. I didnt say the class was trash because they were not good in "balanced" duels. I was just pointing out that the class was meh against anyone decent. Mostly being able just to force a draw by just shieldstacking their *** off. Hence why people use the term subpar.

Just because sorcs have the best burst in the game it doesnt mean that it was enough to kill people. They have the worst sustained dmg in the game. A curse blowing up every now and then isnt sustained dmg. When sorcs couldnt "one shot" someone then they wouldnt get a kill no matter what they did. Its not the same as other classes. Most classes have/had different options. Whether its defiles or dots or whatever. Doesnt mean they didnt struggle but at least they could do something. Sorcs didnt have much of a choice because the entire class was and is still shoehorned into one playstyle. You either "one shot" someone or you dont get a kill. And no, a 25k+ hp build isnt a tank for everyone. Like i said in a previous post. The term tank varies for different classes. It was extremely easy to become a "tank" against a sorc before summerset. This was the source of the problem of the class not doing good against anyone decent. Because the burst wasnt enough and therefore not being able to get a kill no matter what you do. Its the same endless cycle when it comes to sorcs which makes the class so toxic. It either feels useless when u cant one shot someone or extremely OP when you can. If you had trouble with sorc burst prior to summerset thats because u are playing a squishy build. Not because sorc burst was super high. Learn the difference.

Medium armor being sub par doesnt mean that everyone else isnt or that they are top 2-3. Thanks for basically confirming what i said. That you are holding a grudge against everyone and everything because medium sucks.

Inb4 pet sorcs dont count? Nope, wasnt going to say that. But i understand why you think this way. Like always you entirely missed the point because of ur sorc hate and because you believe that the entire game is balanced around you. Aka, sorcs were good against ur medium armor builds, therefore they are top 2-3 in cyrodiil. *Facepalm*

Nope, sorcs are top 1-2 because no matter how far back you go in time you'll find "nerf sorc" posts all over the forums, 1vX sorc videos all over youtube & streamers wrecking people on sorc (believe it or not, a lot of people play "squishy" builds, not just me). And when you look at the numbers of their burst and compare to other classes you'll understand why (or do the math on how much burst is required to get rid of their shields...).

Can you say the same about templar? mDK? Warden perhaps?


Sorcs & NBs have (almost) always been the strongest classes, I don't think that's a big revelation to anyone.

Atleast (most) NB mains are capable of admitting that, which is why you don't see many of them QQ'ing about Incap nerf for example. In my personal opinion they didn't even go far enough with it; they should've moved the Major Defile to 120 ulti only as well (wouldn't even affect PvE).

So your standards of judging which class is the best is nerf threads and 1vX videos. Gz, you get another facepalm.

Funny thing is that if you actually use ur standards to judge which class is overperforming then you are literally contradicting ur own arguments. Nerf sorc threads prior to summerset were only a fraction of what they are now and 1vX videos were flooded by medium armor builds and mDKs. Just look at kodi's top 5 series based on all platforms where any player could send a clip. Almost every single video was bombarded with mDKs and medium armor builds (not just stamblades). Mag sorcs average one feature in every other video. Even magplars were featured more than sorcs.

So according to you medium armor and mDKs were on top while sorcs were mediocre at best. Either your standards are completely stupid or it seems like you missed a few months of the game.

Inb4 Kodi's videos doesnt count.

Yeah, I use media exposure amongst many other things such as math and logic to form opinions. Shocking.

You should try it some time, because the whole "mSorc is weak because I say so" isn't really a convincing line of thought.


...and regarding those "top 5 series", there's so many Sorc videos out there that I wouldn't be surprised if he simply didn't include those because of that. That's what I'd do if I hosted such a series on my channel.

It's much more impressive (and thus more enjoyable to watch) when people do well on a less popular class/build rather than on a meta one.


I wish there was a way of seeing how many search results youtube gives, but on google it is:
"eso stamina nightblade pvp" 50 200 results
"eso magicka nightblade pvp" 43 200 results
"eso magicka sorcerer pvp" 42 000 results
"eso magicka templar pvp" 33 600 results
"eso stamina sorcerer pvp" 33 600 results
"eso stamina dragonknight pvp" 32 500 results
"eso stamina templar pvp" 33 100 results
"eso magicka dragonknight pvp" 28 000 results


Just to give an rough idea.


Also, "nerf sorc shields" has been a popular topic for 4 years. Should I proceed to link 100+ threads? You must be blind if you think sorcs aren't/haven't always been the first or second most complained about class in the game.

Goes back and forth contradicting his own arguments.
Tells me that the player who made the series has a "grudge" against popular classes even tho stamblades were the most featured class in the series.
Then uses google search even tho the discussion is about 2-3 patches prior to summerset.

But im the one that needs to try logic and im blind. Ok. Lmao. Not sure if you actually know what logic means.

Who said anything about a "grudge"? I know this must be hard to process for someone who isn't a content creator, but you typically want to put out content that is enjoyable to watch.

Magicka Sorcerer has one viable playstyle: stack shields & burst people. So perhaps it isn't that surprising that people aren't as enthusiastic to watch those videos as they would towards, say, non-meta stamblade builds or those of less popular classes?

From my perspective keeping those "top 5" videos from becoming repetitive by playing multiple sorc clips is a smart move for someone interested in viewer retention.


Also, that's the total number of videos out there with those search criterias - not just videos from past few months (ESO isn't that popular). If you can figure out how to make google show results from November 2017->May 2018 let me know.

Based on how many sorc videos I saw linked here on the forums during that period I wouldn't be surprised if they got even more results than NBs.


As a side note, I found this quite funny as I went back to search for "nerf dragonknight" or "nerf templar" threads (couldn't find any from past 2 years, except one troll one about templars), the 1st reply to this thread from 2017:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365939/magsorc-ridiculously-op/p1

This won´t end well, brace yourself for:
* the hatestorm from magsorcs claiming their class is weak from all the "nerfs"
* L2P arguments
* Any X amount good players can kill a magsorc
* Arguments from people maining sorc that it´s a balanced class in PvP on all aspects

Like clockwork... you people should really try a different approach if you want to get some imaginary point across.


I mean, you can keep spamming this thread for as long as you want and try to convince people that sorc is some weak sub par class because... that's how you feel? But it's not really going to accomplish anything apart from wasting bandwidth.

TheValar85

Twohothardware wrote: »

Abhaya wrote: »

The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

No other class can apply a timed explosion (Haunting Cuse), with an execute on auto pilot (Mages Fury), and drop an Ultimate (Meteor), at the same moment they hit u with a hard CC from 28 meters away. So even if your running away you still can be hit by that full combo from distance.

Magsorc shouldnt have Rune Cage as an offensive CC at all.

realy? then how about to take avawy everything for your classes as well? Because clearly this rants is all about to completly killing teh sorcerers, if you annoyed by them dude join their ranks. not qqq about the class. becasue the constant demands of teh class will lead the sorcerer class to die out less the a second and what would you do when those who got enough of your sorc demands and actualy the whole sorc community will stand up against this hm? keep demanding? you will be eaten alive on the forum and no forum moderators could handle that rage from teh players bases who palys with sorces.

It hase been taken way too much from that class now how about to do the same with all of the other classes? oh now how could you say that you are about ti kill my class my baby my child i call the @ZOS police. dusgusting.

pieratsos

@DDuke

Thats just one side of the coin. Kodi said in one of his streams in which people judged him about only playing stamblade and stamden, that he plays only those classes because those are the "competitive" classes in solo open world and he does not want to play a weaker class because its not fun for him. Dunno about what you are talking about. Some people just like doing their own thing. Also enjoyable content has nothing to do with playing an unpopular class. Enjoyable content is a very subjective concept. Just because you and me dont find sorcs enjoyable to play, it doesnt mean that everyone feel the same way.

Im really not sure why you think kodi thinks in the same way as you do tho. Have you ever watched his content? He is like the epitome of meta and repetitive content. And then he left to play what else, the most popular game out there. The guy is like the exact opposite of you. Doesnt mean his content is not enjoyable to watch. The guy is doing his own thing and he likes what he is doing, kudos to him.

Also do you seriously insist on bringing nerf threads as ur argument after u contradicted that argument twice? First you used forums as ur argument of balance. Then you posted that forums are flooded with clueless people because people didnt agree with you, and then you used forums as ur argument of balance again. But somehow im the one that needs to try a different approach? Ok i guess. I mean, there are a couple of nerf threads running now, one guy talking about how shields should be affected by major defile and some other guy talking about 50k shields with spammable 20k burst. Feel free to use stuff like that as ur argument, just dont expect anyone to take you seriously.

Spamming the thread to convince people of something because of how i feel? Thats rich, coming from you. Dude, the only thing you are doing is talking about you and trying to balance the entire game around you and ur builds. Key word is you. You somehow believe that everything has to do with you but its about how i feel? Lmao. You are pure comedy mate.