Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.
If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.
Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.
When built towards it.
Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.
If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).
Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:
1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills
2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less
And after nerfing Cloak you would have nothing against stamina getting as much defense as magicka has? Since magicka gets light attacks buffed it would be only fair for stamina to get the same overdefense, sustain and pressure which magicka has, wouldn't it?
Excuse me?
If we go by that, please give Magicka ONE execute that's not class based. Stamina has access to four execute abilities (DW passive, Steel Tornado, Executioner, Poison Injection), Magicka to zero. Z-E-R-O.
Oh and what about variety when it comes to weapons? Stamina has 3 offensive and 1 defensive weapon. Magicka has 1 offensive and 1 defensive. Okay, granted, most class skills are Magicka based but doesn't change anything when it comes to weapon choices for casters.
Where the hag has Magicka better sustain than Stamina? And better pressure when 2h is most likely the hardest hitting weapon in game?
Magicka has better pressure because most dots are magicka based and they have Elemental Drain which equals 600 (!) magicka regen. Please just play a stamina class (like stamplar or stamdk) against good magicka opponents for once before starting another crusade against stamina.TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »IMHO, Cloak simply needs a small, but significant change and balance would be restored: simply halt Resource Regeneration and Healing while Cloaked (exactly like Mist Form)...
Nightblades would still be able to exit a fight as needed, but they couldn't keep resetting a fight until it goes in their favor...
And yes, there are a lot of counters for Nightblades, but as more and more people are starting to realize (and IMHO its the reason you encounter so many of them nowadays), there is a counter for the anti-Nightblade counters...
And that counter-counter is Major Expedition and running; a Nightblade can simply run away until your detect pot runs out, a Nightblade can simply run from your Radiant Magelight...
They can outrun practically any of the so called counters...
No single player can pin a Nightblade down because of Shade...
Its the reason why you see so many people required to kill Nightblades that really know what they are doing; you get them near Deaths Door and they get away with either Shade or Cloak...
Just halt Resource Regeneration and Healing during Cloak...
Sure, they can escape, but atleast they wont be able to keep resetting the fight until they can burst you down with some combo involving Incap...
In other words: You want to kill the class. How would you think about making a heal over time effect out of Breath of Life? So templars can't blockheal to full health again in seconds...
I don't think anything but cloak needs touching really, NB is bursty, sneaky and mobile. It should just be more squishy via cloak changes, the passives are fine, and the QOL changes, like no target shade, and better assassains, whilst strong, are fair. Also stamina has by far the best pressure. Bleeds>any mag dots. Then add master weapons, and stamina executes, and its easier to finish off on a stamina dot build.
Seraphayel wrote: »Don't you think so? There might be a reason why 3/4 PvPers (mostly in battlegrounds) are either Nightblades, using 2h weapon+bow/dw or both.
Cloak needs the Streak treatment asap - every time you use Cloak its cost is increased by 50%. Why the hell isn't this done already?
Seraphayel wrote: »Don't you think so? There might be a reason why 3/4 PvPers (mostly in battlegrounds) are either Nightblades, using 2h weapon+bow/dw or both.
Cloak needs the Streak treatment asap - every time you use Cloak its cost is increased by 50%. Why the hell isn't this done already?
As a MagBlade I support this! It won’t affect my play style at all but will be a huge nerf to StamBlades abusing a Magicka Skill...
Lichbourne90 wrote: »The stealth class can stealth? Effectively? The hell is wrong with this game?
I slot radiant magelight on all my builds nowadays, mag or stam, and you should too!
Lingering flare is better but the passives aren't as good. When they change empower I might switch to that on my mag builds.
They don't want to change their build. Simply as that. If they get cloak nerfed it'll soon be something else.
These players refuse to change up their build to fight one class but that one class sends them running to the forums because a potential notch in their victory belt used cloak to get away from certain death.
Hey, anyone who thinks cloak is fine, can I please have infinite reflects back. Its only projectiles, and a limited number too, whereas cloak is any ST not already on before, dots, and makes you invisible. I would even take an absorb/deflect, so no one can argue about the reflect portion.
You can have infinite reflects when my bowblade (whose pretty much every skill gets reflected btw!) has access to abilities that make those infinite reflects disappear until you cast wings againZzz... another of these threads.
Anyone thinking cloak is the issue: try playing a high damage build with limited sustain and say that again after you run out of magicka with just 3 consecutive cloaks.
The only thing making cloak sustain more difficult does is it makes the actual fotm meta 3k+ stam regen 1k mag regen builds stack more mag regen while high damage builds that are already more difficult to play become entirely unplayable.
You definitely hit the nail on the head. The builds people are raging about are the seeming "impossible" builds which cloak way more than the NB forum warriors would have you believe is possible.
Regen-build NBs shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do currently. However the only change I think to be fair would be reducing the Major Defile duration to match the Incap stun at 3 secs instead of 6 secs.
I don't think Cloak needs a nerf in stacking cost/reduced regen/no healing. Detect potions allowing single target abilities to hit would be the first and most important change. Right now, I will use waste a Detect potion and still all my abilities MISS MISS MISS as they only have to cloak to force miss, kite from their Shade and use it to escape.
Some of the other counters could be slightly buffed: range of Evil Hunter increased slightly or cost reduced, pulling NB from stealth with AOE should prevent re-cloaking for 1 sec (enough time for one skill cast), Detect potions with more variety of effects but only provide Detect to person using potion.
I'm quite sure Evil/Camo Hunter don't actually increase detection radius currently - they just prevent someone within 6m radius of you from stealthing by locking stealth for 3s should they try to do so while you have the skill activated (only 5s duration on activation).
Overall it's a bad skill mostly used for passives on most builds (ironically it's used by a lot of gank builds to maximize damage from stealth). Should definitely get some buffs.
Radiant Magelight is a different story since it has 12m radius, which is more than stealth detection radius vs most characters.
I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.
It's one way to affect the infinite regen builds without ruining the high damage limited sustain builds, as those builds aren't able to spam cloak every 1s (if it keeps getting broken) anyway.
Deal. Wings now reflects/deflects all ranged attacks for 3s. Unless its something like potl/curse, only if its cast before wings though.
You can break it with an AoE, but to match the difficulty of the whackamole vs invis NB, it has to be a targetted one, like endless hail, eruption etc. Something expensive and difficult to hit them with.
Something like... bombard?
Sounds good to me, but you probably wouldn't like it after seeing how that works out in practice...
Also, Piercing Mark would permanently disable your Wings - you know, just to keep things even.
Mark->Cloak
DK skill -> Wings. Which is why I said engulfing flames to disable wings. (Not really any long lasting effects)
I probably would prefer it to wings of today, which are completely useless OW. Since like cloak, the counters are in my favor, and to break it a class would have to run a limited and sacrificial counter like pots. Or have to deal with landing something awkward to land on a slippery target. (Any AOEs on invisible, vs targetted AoEs on visible) wheras on my end it would mitigate a lot and scale better than a defense like block, and have more scope on what/how much is reflected.
But lets flip the argument on its head. Cloak can now totally has a limit on how much, and what type of damage, only single target hits it can cloak against, everything else goes through, buff or a nerf?
Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Nope. I don't think ZoS needs to do anything about Cloak or Stamblades.
What ZOS needs to do is stop nerfing my class so I have decent and capable tools to use against Cloak and Stamblades.
If you expect to hit a cloaking rollerblade with your jabs in the current server infrastructure, I got some bad news for you...
I don't expect my jabs to hit anything with the current infrastructure. Giving me my stun back on blazing spear, so it useful more than just a "where did the NB go?" skill and to stop nerfing the crap out of my healing so I might actually be able to recover upon failing to find said NB would be a step in the right direction and something I'd be willing to try before any more nerfs.
Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.
If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.
Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.
When built towards it.
Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.
If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).
Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:
1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills
2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less
And after nerfing Cloak you would have nothing against stamina getting as much defense as magicka has? Since magicka gets light attacks buffed it would be only fair for stamina to get the same overdefense, sustain and pressure which magicka has, wouldn't it?
Excuse me?
If we go by that, please give Magicka ONE execute that's not class based. Stamina has access to four execute abilities (DW passive, Steel Tornado, Executioner, Poison Injection), Magicka to zero. Z-E-R-O.
Oh and what about variety when it comes to weapons? Stamina has 3 offensive and 1 defensive weapon. Magicka has 1 offensive and 1 defensive. Okay, granted, most class skills are Magicka based but doesn't change anything when it comes to weapon choices for casters.
Where the hag has Magicka better sustain than Stamina? And better pressure when 2h is most likely the hardest hitting weapon in game?
Magicka has better pressure because most dots are magicka based and they have Elemental Drain which equals 600 (!) magicka regen. Please just play a stamina class (like stamplar or stamdk) against good magicka opponents for once before starting another crusade against stamina.TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »IMHO, Cloak simply needs a small, but significant change and balance would be restored: simply halt Resource Regeneration and Healing while Cloaked (exactly like Mist Form)...
Nightblades would still be able to exit a fight as needed, but they couldn't keep resetting a fight until it goes in their favor...
And yes, there are a lot of counters for Nightblades, but as more and more people are starting to realize (and IMHO its the reason you encounter so many of them nowadays), there is a counter for the anti-Nightblade counters...
And that counter-counter is Major Expedition and running; a Nightblade can simply run away until your detect pot runs out, a Nightblade can simply run from your Radiant Magelight...
They can outrun practically any of the so called counters...
No single player can pin a Nightblade down because of Shade...
Its the reason why you see so many people required to kill Nightblades that really know what they are doing; you get them near Deaths Door and they get away with either Shade or Cloak...
Just halt Resource Regeneration and Healing during Cloak...
Sure, they can escape, but atleast they wont be able to keep resetting the fight until they can burst you down with some combo involving Incap...
In other words: You want to kill the class. How would you think about making a heal over time effect out of Breath of Life? So templars can't blockheal to full health again in seconds...
MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Nope. I don't think ZoS needs to do anything about Cloak or Stamblades.
What ZOS needs to do is stop nerfing my class so I have decent and capable tools to use against Cloak and Stamblades.
If you expect to hit a cloaking rollerblade with your jabs in the current server infrastructure, I got some bad news for you...
I don't expect my jabs to hit anything with the current infrastructure. Giving me my stun back on blazing spear, so it useful more than just a "where did the NB go?" skill and to stop nerfing the crap out of my healing so I might actually be able to recover upon failing to find said NB would be a step in the right direction and something I'd be willing to try before any more nerfs.
L2P issue Joy, my jabs is working as intended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62GoJcVd4yg
MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »
TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.
If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.
Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.
When built towards it.
Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.
If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).
Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:
1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills
2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less
And after nerfing Cloak you would have nothing against stamina getting as much defense as magicka has? Since magicka gets light attacks buffed it would be only fair for stamina to get the same overdefense, sustain and pressure which magicka has, wouldn't it?
Excuse me?
If we go by that, please give Magicka ONE execute that's not class based. Stamina has access to four execute abilities (DW passive, Steel Tornado, Executioner, Poison Injection), Magicka to zero. Z-E-R-O.
Oh and what about variety when it comes to weapons? Stamina has 3 offensive and 1 defensive weapon. Magicka has 1 offensive and 1 defensive. Okay, granted, most class skills are Magicka based but doesn't change anything when it comes to weapon choices for casters.
Where the hag has Magicka better sustain than Stamina? And better pressure when 2h is most likely the hardest hitting weapon in game?
Magicka has better pressure because most dots are magicka based and they have Elemental Drain which equals 600 (!) magicka regen. Please just play a stamina class (like stamplar or stamdk) against good magicka opponents for once before starting another crusade against stamina.TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »IMHO, Cloak simply needs a small, but significant change and balance would be restored: simply halt Resource Regeneration and Healing while Cloaked (exactly like Mist Form)...
Nightblades would still be able to exit a fight as needed, but they couldn't keep resetting a fight until it goes in their favor...
And yes, there are a lot of counters for Nightblades, but as more and more people are starting to realize (and IMHO its the reason you encounter so many of them nowadays), there is a counter for the anti-Nightblade counters...
And that counter-counter is Major Expedition and running; a Nightblade can simply run away until your detect pot runs out, a Nightblade can simply run from your Radiant Magelight...
They can outrun practically any of the so called counters...
No single player can pin a Nightblade down because of Shade...
Its the reason why you see so many people required to kill Nightblades that really know what they are doing; you get them near Deaths Door and they get away with either Shade or Cloak...
Just halt Resource Regeneration and Healing during Cloak...
Sure, they can escape, but atleast they wont be able to keep resetting the fight until they can burst you down with some combo involving Incap...
In other words: You want to kill the class. How would you think about making a heal over time effect out of Breath of Life? So templars can't blockheal to full health again in seconds...
I don't block cast (I run Resto/Dual Wield), so it wouldn't bother me one bit...
Also, I already can kill Nightblades (I have more success against them than any other class), but I plainly see just how powerful they can be in the right hands just as you can...
When properly played, the class is overperforming; are you trying to argue that that isn't true?
MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »
If only they work at least 50% of the time. Between pathing issues, lag, targeting issues good luck. Most the time I have to hit 3-4 times to even move by then they are 2 streaks away and out of range of the gap closer.
MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Nope. I don't think ZoS needs to do anything about Cloak or Stamblades.
What ZOS needs to do is stop nerfing my class so I have decent and capable tools to use against Cloak and Stamblades.
If you expect to hit a cloaking rollerblade with your jabs in the current server infrastructure, I got some bad news for you...
I don't expect my jabs to hit anything with the current infrastructure. Giving me my stun back on blazing spear, so it useful more than just a "where did the NB go?" skill and to stop nerfing the crap out of my healing so I might actually be able to recover upon failing to find said NB would be a step in the right direction and something I'd be willing to try before any more nerfs.
L2P issue Joy, my jabs is working as intended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62GoJcVd4yg
Seraphayel wrote: »Come on, everybody who says use the counters to cloak is just trying to find some arguments why it's supposedly not overpowered. Cloak counters are super expensive crap skills most of the time. It is like the same people that look for excuses for the overperformance of bleed builds because you can use that 6k Magicka cleanse to remove them. Yeah...
Seraphayel wrote: »Come on, everybody who says use the counters to cloak is just trying to find some arguments why it's supposedly not overpowered. Cloak counters are super expensive crap skills most of the time. It is like the same people that look for excuses for the overperformance of bleed builds because you can use that 6k Magicka cleanse to remove them. Yeah...
Seraphayel wrote: »Didn't know Jabs was a Cloak counter skill. Btw AoE counters can easily be outplayed by Shadow & Teleport Strike.
Seraphayel wrote: »Come on, everybody who says use the counters to cloak is just trying to find some arguments why it's supposedly not overpowered. Cloak counters are super expensive crap skills most of the time. It is like the same people that look for excuses for the overperformance of bleed builds because you can use that 6k Magicka cleanse to remove them. Yeah...
Super expensive crap skills such as Jabs, Hurricane, Caltrops, etc?
Heck I have zero cloak counters in my loadout, and I have zero issues with them because I use detection potions.
It's one of the easiest mechanics to counter in the game lol
Seraphayel wrote: »Come on, everybody who says use the counters to cloak is just trying to find some arguments why it's supposedly not overpowered. Cloak counters are super expensive crap skills most of the time. It is like the same people that look for excuses for the overperformance of bleed builds because you can use that 6k Magicka cleanse to remove them. Yeah...
Super expensive crap skills such as Jabs, Hurricane, Caltrops, etc?
Heck I have zero cloak counters in my loadout, and I have zero issues with them because I use detection potions.
It's one of the easiest mechanics to counter in the game lol
It’s very easy for us to tell the skill level of the NBs posting here by looking at what they consider a counter to cloak. if Jabs is pulling you out of cloak, it says far more about you than it does about cloak.
I wonder how many of these NBs are going to look back on these counters after they’ve spent time improving and think “wow I was really embarrassing myself with some of my posts. I can’t believe I was able to get killed so easily”
Hopefully some, at least.
Seraphayel wrote: »Come on, everybody who says use the counters to cloak is just trying to find some arguments why it's supposedly not overpowered. Cloak counters are super expensive crap skills most of the time. It is like the same people that look for excuses for the overperformance of bleed builds because you can use that 6k Magicka cleanse to remove them. Yeah...
Super expensive crap skills such as Jabs, Hurricane, Caltrops, etc?
Heck I have zero cloak counters in my loadout, and I have zero issues with them because I use detection potions.
It's one of the easiest mechanics to counter in the game lol
It’s very easy for us to tell the skill level of the NBs posting here by looking at what they consider a counter to cloak. if Jabs is pulling them out of cloak, it says far more about them than it does about cloak.
I wonder how many of these NBs are going to look back on these counters after they’ve spent time improving and think “wow I was really embarrassing myself with some of my posts. I can’t believe I was able to get killed so easily”
Hopefully some, at least.
Seraphayel wrote: »Come on, everybody who says use the counters to cloak is just trying to find some arguments why it's supposedly not overpowered. Cloak counters are super expensive crap skills most of the time. It is like the same people that look for excuses for the overperformance of bleed builds because you can use that 6k Magicka cleanse to remove them. Yeah...
Super expensive crap skills such as Jabs, Hurricane, Caltrops, etc?
Heck I have zero cloak counters in my loadout, and I have zero issues with them because I use detection potions.
It's one of the easiest mechanics to counter in the game lol
It’s very easy for us to tell the skill level of the NBs posting here by looking at what they consider a counter to cloak. if Jabs is pulling them out of cloak, it says far more about them than it does about cloak.
I wonder how many of these NBs are going to look back on these counters after they’ve spent time improving and think “wow I was really embarrassing myself with some of my posts. I can’t believe I was able to get killed so easily”
Hopefully some, at least.
I break the cloak of Nb all the time on my stamplar its not hard.