Don't you think it's time to do something against Cloak & Stam(blades), ZOS?

dsalter

Maryal wrote: »

Here is the official word from ZOS regarding NBs:

https://twitch.tv/videos/247754193?t=2h46m26s


(see video at 2 hrs. 26 min. 28 seconds)

tbh i died alittle inside when they joked about all having nightblades and the "git gud" responce to them...

Lucky28

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I see a lot of “streak is good” comments
It’s not.
-The delay on both ends
-Terrible on slopes you either move an inch and bash into the hill going up or fall slowly going down
-insane increase cost
-short jump that can easily be spammed by a gap closer

People can sprint after you for less resources

Cloak should get the streak cost increase

And passive stealth should be removed

Cloak is not on the same level as streak. so no.

if you're fighting people who know what they're doing and not complete scrubs you're gonna have a *** of a time getting away with cloak. in otherwords, this really is an l2p topic.

Streak is the easiest thing in the world to counter. Just hold down the sprint button or gap close. All streak does it put the sorc out of range of their healer.

Cloak? Not so much.

There is no detect / speed potion combination available. This means that any nightblade who gets detected by the detect pot will have an easy time kiting the person who detected them. Combine it with shade and they’re impossible to hit because all melee attacks will be kited and all range attacks will get LoSd or cloak spammed to force a miss.

Use AOE attacks? Yeah right. Show me a player who is competitive with non-ult AOE attacks and I’ll show you a zergling.

The person you just told to L2P is gm of animosity, arguably the top PC NA PvP guild and one of the two guilds that went undefeated last weekend at the big PC NA GvG tourney. He usually plays his nigntblade when he’s solo. I’m GM of the other guild that went undefeated. We know how to play and we know how counter cloak... the NBs in here defending it do not know how to use it to its full potential.

and i have to disagree with all of what you just said. Nightblades are literally the class i have the least trouble with in Cyrodiil unless i'm running zero counters to cloak which would be my *** up.

so i dunno what to tell ya man. there are many counters to NB's use them.

I’m sure that’s the case if you solo within a zerg.
Get xv1’d by multiple or even one cloaking/rolling nb.
It’s easily the strongest class for xv’ing, ganking, being a *** and has the ability to be one of the hardest classes to lock down when used by a strong player. Because one roll cloak and here comes a daddy incap sending you home off of a single mistake you made chasing that nb.

.... k we'll nerf cloak because you got zerged. fair enough. lets also nerf sorc wards because i have a hard time dealing with multiple sorcs stacks shields. Fair?.

everything you just said was you *** up and getting yourself in a bad situation and you want to nerf a class because of it?. come on.

though i will say there should be more options for detect pots. i've been thinking about that, you can make really good detect pots for magicka characters, but there are no options for stam which should be change. maybe give detection a duration boost as well. but cloak itself does not need a stacking cost increase.

You’re erroneously mistaking the fact that most zergling NBs are bad players with the fact that NB is easy to counter. It isn’t easy to counter when played by a good player. It’s just that most NBs aren’t good players because unlike any other class they can still survive against other bad or mediocre players without having to learn to kite / LoS.

The problem is when a NB uses the tools they have in conjunction with the LoS / kiting abilities inherrrent to all Stam classes.

AOE builds are weak/ vulnerable to kiting. Detect pots make the user weak/vulnerable to kiting. Those are indisputable facts.

Any NB that says there are effective counters to cloak does NOT know how to kite. The NBs that do know how to play their class - the best ones like moontan, zedisded, etc.. all agree that cloak is OP. The only effective counter to cloak is “mark target” which is only available to night blades.

The cloak nerf should either cap movement speed while cloaked at 100% of regular run speed, or they should add a detect / speed pot.

nothing is "easy to counter" when your fighting a good player. it's not impossible you just have to use your brain more which i don't have a problem with.

FM is more the problem you're highlighting not cloak. and if moontan and Zed think cloak is OP they can make the case themselves they don't need you speaking for them.

dsalter

on point, the main problem i have with with gankblades is their insane ability to not only CC, but burst AND escape, usually from a sort of glass cannon you expect them to do a whole bunch of damage and struggle to get away or die, so the CC and burst is fine.
but when they can not only go invisible by spamming it, but also gain evasion and bonus armor thats where they go to far, and the counter for the invis spam comes mainly from... another NB, in the form of Mark.
flare needs to have a morph that fires the projectile in a cone, sticking to everything in it than just 2 ranged morphs, because with the speed and mobility, you will rarely land flare, the other morph should just make it linger on the ground for twice as long.

"just detect potion noob" is a common one i see as well, but in all honesty if you have to either roll the same class as the NB or spend a crafting skills consumables on just being able to reliable SEE the NB (no garentee you'll catch them with the evasion+speed) then does that not show how over performing the class skills are?

technohic

As mentioned before; I think the healing nerf will be enough. NBs wind up being just an irritant when they cant just heal to full really quick and be right back into the fight. Cloaking and running away does little for them when whoever they killed can be back up before they are able to re-engage.

The counters are not perfect, but it would be awful if they were. Imagine being on a magplar and not only did defile didnt just reduce your healing but made it to where you just plain out couldnt heal at all or even cleanse it. Counters are enough to give you a chance and them a chance as well, not shut the entire class down.

KingJ

People keep talking about crit heals but a Stamblade never gets crit the heal from cloak because every NB build runs a DOT.The Dot ticks take the crit not the heal.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I see a lot of “streak is good” comments
It’s not.
-The delay on both ends
-Terrible on slopes you either move an inch and bash into the hill going up or fall slowly going down
-insane increase cost
-short jump that can easily be spammed by a gap closer

People can sprint after you for less resources

Cloak should get the streak cost increase

And passive stealth should be removed

Cloak is not on the same level as streak. so no.

if you're fighting people who know what they're doing and not complete scrubs you're gonna have a *** of a time getting away with cloak. in otherwords, this really is an l2p topic.

Streak is the easiest thing in the world to counter. Just hold down the sprint button or gap close. All streak does it put the sorc out of range of their healer.

Cloak? Not so much.

There is no detect / speed potion combination available. This means that any nightblade who gets detected by the detect pot will have an easy time kiting the person who detected them. Combine it with shade and they’re impossible to hit because all melee attacks will be kited and all range attacks will get LoSd or cloak spammed to force a miss.

Use AOE attacks? Yeah right. Show me a player who is competitive with non-ult AOE attacks and I’ll show you a zergling.

The person you just told to L2P is gm of animosity, arguably the top PC NA PvP guild and one of the two guilds that went undefeated last weekend at the big PC NA GvG tourney. He usually plays his nigntblade when he’s solo. I’m GM of the other guild that went undefeated. We know how to play and we know how counter cloak... the NBs in here defending it do not know how to use it to its full potential.

and i have to disagree with all of what you just said. Nightblades are literally the class i have the least trouble with in Cyrodiil unless i'm running zero counters to cloak which would be my *** up.

so i dunno what to tell ya man. there are many counters to NB's use them.

I’m sure that’s the case if you solo within a zerg.
Get xv1’d by multiple or even one cloaking/rolling nb.
It’s easily the strongest class for xv’ing, ganking, being a *** and has the ability to be one of the hardest classes to lock down when used by a strong player. Because one roll cloak and here comes a daddy incap sending you home off of a single mistake you made chasing that nb.

.... k we'll nerf cloak because you got zerged. fair enough. lets also nerf sorc wards because i have a hard time dealing with multiple sorcs stacks shields. Fair?.

everything you just said was you *** up and getting yourself in a bad situation and you want to nerf a class because of it?. come on.

though i will say there should be more options for detect pots. i've been thinking about that, you can make really good detect pots for magicka characters, but there are no options for stam which should be change. maybe give detection a duration boost as well. but cloak itself does not need a stacking cost increase.

You’re erroneously mistaking the fact that most zergling NBs are bad players with the fact that NB is easy to counter. It isn’t easy to counter when played by a good player. It’s just that most NBs aren’t good players because unlike any other class they can still survive against other bad or mediocre players without having to learn to kite / LoS.

The problem is when a NB uses the tools they have in conjunction with the LoS / kiting abilities inherrrent to all Stam classes.

AOE builds are weak/ vulnerable to kiting. Detect pots make the user weak/vulnerable to kiting. Those are indisputable facts.

Any NB that says there are effective counters to cloak does NOT know how to kite. The NBs that do know how to play their class - the best ones like moontan, zedisded, etc.. all agree that cloak is OP. The only effective counter to cloak is “mark target” which is only available to night blades.

The cloak nerf should either cap movement speed while cloaked at 100% of regular run speed, or they should add a detect / speed pot.

Well it would be a fair nerf in my book even if i don't think cloak is a problem,but the problem is that even after a nerf like this the guy that scream for nerf cloak will still cry until cloak is useless.

Also Concealed Weapon might need a rework too after that.

Grimhallow

Thogard wrote: »

We can’t balance the nightblade class around the hordes of bad players that have flocked to it and, due to its many crutches, never learned to play the game.

Nightblades need to be balanced around the 5-10% of players that are capable of surviving on other Stam classes as well. These are the players that do well on all Stam classes. When they take the natural mobility and evasiveness of Stam, throw in some troll king, and then add in the extra defensive mechanics of shade and cloak, you have a class that is virtually impossible for a solo player to kill, even using the counters.

If a speed / detect pot existed, there might be an argument to be made that a counter exists. But that potion doesn’t exist, and anyone who uses a detect pot is utterly kitable for the 20s duration the potion is working.

I don’t know any good nightblades that believe their class is balanced. Defending the class, at this point, is a bit cringey.

I think there is a good argument to be made that Stamina Nightblade is among the strongest 3 classes in the game- particularly open world and solo. However, I would maintain that Nightblade is in balance, and that the other stam classes are simply not up to snuff. Instead of nerfing cloak to make all the classes the same, give DK a stam whip, and give Sorc a stam atro, etc.

Stamblade is in a great place. Success relies pretty heavily on player skill, but it's fun for everybody to play regardless of experience. Cloak, incap, and shade are cool abilities. Don't nerf cool abilities- add cool abilities to other classes.

amir412

Funny, when i made a thread about NBS will become ridicilous OP, After heavy armor shuffle nerf,
i got bashed from everyone.
Satisfaction at it's finest.

Killset

jerj6925 wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

jerj6925 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Cloak is balanced, L2P. This patch I'm using shadow cloak and next patch I'm still using shadow cloak. If you're playing vs a nightblade that solely relies on cloak to survive then im sorry but you're not playing vs a very good stamblade. Next patch we get 33% of max health over 3 seconds, hehe basically like a magicka vigor. People need to start playing stamblades like stamDK's. Woops that was a secret.

#Inbeforenightblademaincomments

Cloak has an unfair advantage until the game mechanics and counters start to reliably work. As it is Mage light hardly works and pots don't always reveal players. on top of that with the lag and other poor game mechanics cloak is really really unfair.

Breath of Life isn’t fair because it heals people when I’m trying to kill them, Shields aren’t fair because people spam them just as I’m about to kill them, streak isn’t fair because sorcs streak off across the map when I’m trying to kill them, Dark Deal isn’t fair because sorcs spam it for resources, Mist form isn’t fair because people use it to escape and LOS when I’m trying to kill them, talon spam isn’t fair because DK’s spam it when I’m trying to kill them, Power of The Light isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak, Curse isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak, Sub Assault isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak. Hurricane isn’t fair because it pulls me out of cloak, Steel Tornado isn’t fair.... You get the point.

Your reply show's you did not read what I said, read it again. If your still struggling with it message me.

I read it. “On top of that with the lag and other poor game mechanics Cloak is really really unfair.” Lag doesn’t discriminate. It affects Nightblades too. And a classes primary means of defense shouldn’t be nerfed because you might be experiencing lag that others don’t.

Ender1310

I am very eager for that new shadow image change. I am also apprehensive as this playstyle seems almost too good to be true. Shadowy mobility. This is kind of what I'd always wanted out of my mage blade. However as we learned from the sorcs infinite mobility equals bad/nerf incoming. I wouldn't mind if we got this and they gave classes something to compensate. Real issue with stam blades is that they hit to damn hard. They hit hard with full plate lolz.

Thogard

Killset wrote: »

jerj6925 wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

jerj6925 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Cloak is balanced, L2P. This patch I'm using shadow cloak and next patch I'm still using shadow cloak. If you're playing vs a nightblade that solely relies on cloak to survive then im sorry but you're not playing vs a very good stamblade. Next patch we get 33% of max health over 3 seconds, hehe basically like a magicka vigor. People need to start playing stamblades like stamDK's. Woops that was a secret.

#Inbeforenightblademaincomments

Cloak has an unfair advantage until the game mechanics and counters start to reliably work. As it is Mage light hardly works and pots don't always reveal players. on top of that with the lag and other poor game mechanics cloak is really really unfair.

Breath of Life isn’t fair because it heals people when I’m trying to kill them, Shields aren’t fair because people spam them just as I’m about to kill them, streak isn’t fair because sorcs streak off across the map when I’m trying to kill them, Dark Deal isn’t fair because sorcs spam it for resources, Mist form isn’t fair because people use it to escape and LOS when I’m trying to kill them, talon spam isn’t fair because DK’s spam it when I’m trying to kill them, Power of The Light isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak, Curse isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak, Sub Assault isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak. Hurricane isn’t fair because it pulls me out of cloak, Steel Tornado isn’t fair.... You get the point.

Your reply show's you did not read what I said, read it again. If your still struggling with it message me.

I read it. “On top of that with the lag and other poor game mechanics Cloak is really really unfair.” Lag doesn’t discriminate. It affects Nightblades too. And a classes primary means of defense shouldn’t be nerfed because you might be experiencing lag that others don’t.

Lag helps the initiator of combat and hurts the responder. It delays reaction times.

NBs are almost always the ones with the first strike advantage, and it’s an advantage they can regain whenever they choose to cloak.

To say that lag affects all classes equally is either naive or dishonest. Using ground target abilities during primetime in Vivec is laughable. Using PBAoE DOTs like destro ult isn’t so bad though.

But the main impact lag has is that it gives a bigger advantage to the first strike / combat initiator... and that’s NBs.