Don't you think it's time to do something against Cloak & Stam(blades), ZOS?

Sevn

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I'm starting to believe most if not all the anti-cloak posters play on pc? They never had to adapt or build for nb's because they were cheating with miats, now they are at a complete loss so nerfing is all they know?

I hate assuming so I'll just ask, what platform do you all play on? Thogard for sure plays pc, who else?

Miat's only helped with snipe, which is fine the way it is. i have no issue with snipe. The good NBs run poison injection with master bow anyway.

So you're confirming you did indeed use miats? Honestly can't tell.

What about you ragnarock? Nice sidestep, but you didn't answer the question? Do you play on pc and were you using miats?

For clarity, I've stated SEVERAL times I suck with a nb and cloak is indeed why I escape certain death. Thank you for verifying that the issue is letting us bad nb's escape your guaranteed kill with cloak.

Yes... and the removal of miat's hasn't affected me at all... Snipe spam was never a problem. Snipe has an audio queue, which is the same thing that Miat's does. (Miat's hurt mag sorcs the most because it made cFrags, dizzy, and other channeled attacks that DIDN'T have audio queues easily dodgeable). I still use Miat's for the nifty 3d keep icons and for the convenient AP tracking.

The sNBs who snipe spam are still 1vX fodder. I do use detect pots and i do enjoy slaughtering them back to back because they dont know any methods for mitigating damage besides vanish. Those sNBs tend to be the least-skilled players in the game and are not what I'm concerned about and not what I'm discussing here.

EDIT: Sevn i'm not trying to hide anything. You can watch some of my play sessions at and judge for yourself. I suggest starting with the clips. I play a stamden that is usually on a dizzy swing build (which was hurt by Miat's and, unlike snipe, DIDN'T have an audio queue...) Like sNB, stamden also needs a bit of a nerf and you can see me arguing for it in the stamden thread next to this one.

I appreciate your honesty, but let us be serious, even if you were dependent upon miats to combat cloakers, would you state so? It's rather embarrassing to acknowledge you needed to cheat to deal with them isn't it?

I'm not hiding anything as well, I admitted I'm a terrible nb but my stamsorc skills are exceptional. I just like to utilize my pretty kitty for more than just thieving lol.

A cloak nerf really won't affect my pvp, I'll simply rebuild into a unkillable heavy armor 60k health high regen build and carry on, but a nerf WILL impact my pve, and that is unacceptable for me.

This is why I'm suggesting asking for buffs to the counters instead of nerfing a key skill for thievery because a percentage of pvper's don't want to adjust their builds to deal with what is being claimed as the majority of pvper's in cyro.

I'll ask another simple question, if they did indeed improve the counters, would you all then be willing to adjust your builds?

I track my overall K/D in battlegrounds with addons. My K/D has gone up since the Miat's removal. Snipe spam is not a problem for me and you can see plenty of instances of me dodging and avoiding snipe in my videos without the use of the Miat's addon. It's the easiest skill to avoid in the game.

In regards to your second question... i DO use detect pots. But using a pot that doesn't grant me speed ruins my ability to fight nightblades (or any other stam class for that matter) who know how to LoS and kite.

If they made it so that i could make a detect pot that's also a speed / stam pot, and they made it so that I won't get any more forced "misses" due to the NBs cloak cancelling my attacks even when i can see them, I would be satisfied and would consider cloak balanced. This change would be hardly noticeable to the less-skilled nightblades, but would ruin the extra cheesy, unkillable trait of the stamblades who really know how to combine ALL of the defenses available to them.

Not sure why you have brought up snipe, twice now, the discussion is about cloakers and miat users that used miat to avoid all cloaked attacks, not just snipe.

I mean I agree with you, snipe spammers are easy prey, what good nb leads with snipe, one of the easiest skills to avoid when a heavy attack has no audio que, but it's whatever.

I just needed to know that you are at least willing to settle for buffs rather than stay hellbent on nerfing cloak.

I think you might be misinformed about what miat’s did. It alerted people to channeled and projectile attacks. This allows people to roll dodge the snipes that were being channeled.. but sNBs don’t really use too many other channeled attacks from stealth... unless you count opening with a heavy attack, which wasn’t really an issue anyway since you wouldn’t have to actually target your target so they wouldn’t get an alert.

Honestly I play on console so I have no idea how miats worked before, all I know is what I've read and how it completely destroyed stealth gameplay.

All I'm saying is if stamblades are as omnipresent as I am being lead to believe why in the world would you not plan for 90% of the enemies you're going to face?

When sorcs were everywhere I respeced my toons to deal with them and I'll do the same for any one class that I'll face if that one class is giving me problems.

All I know is when I PvP using a nb I can only cloak a maximum of 4 times before I'm completely out of magic. If a player is being outplayed by someone who can only cloak a handful of times, the problem is their build.

And let's be honest, if cloak gets nerfed and you all are still outplayed by nb's you'll all be asking for more nerfs. Anti-nb's are primarily why monster sets no longer crit, you guys are never satisfied until you have ruined every class but the one you all play.

Templars are op! Now Templars are trash. The list is endless.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

If stamblades are oom after 4 to 5 cloak casts they run a bad build.

...or they're playing a high damage build. I wouldn't categorize those as "bad builds" when they can get just as many (if not more) kills in PvP in half the time than the more popular rollerblades.

Derra wrote: »

With using a pot i can cloak 9 times if i spam the ability on my stam nb - if i it does not have to be spammed i can cloak 20+ times before running out of juice.
This assures that whenever someone detect pots me that´s using a projectile build a combination of dodge + cloak will 100% negate their possible dmg window.

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

Derra wrote: »

I do not cry about cloak if you read my posts here. I state that cloak counters are lackluster and not worth slotting because they work different from other counter abilities. They do nothing but counter cloak. That´s bad design in a game with 5 classes and 10 skillslots.

I do agree with this, they need to make many of those skills more useful (and on the other end of the spectrum, tone down Piercing Mark).

Ragnarock41

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I'm starting to believe most if not all the anti-cloak posters play on pc? They never had to adapt or build for nb's because they were cheating with miats, now they are at a complete loss so nerfing is all they know?

I hate assuming so I'll just ask, what platform do you all play on? Thogard for sure plays pc, who else?

Miat's only helped with snipe, which is fine the way it is. i have no issue with snipe. The good NBs run poison injection with master bow anyway.

So you're confirming you did indeed use miats? Honestly can't tell.

What about you ragnarock? Nice sidestep, but you didn't answer the question? Do you play on pc and were you using miats?

For clarity, I've stated SEVERAL times I suck with a nb and cloak is indeed why I escape certain death. Thank you for verifying that the issue is letting us bad nb's escape your guaranteed kill with cloak.

Yes... and the removal of miat's hasn't affected me at all... Snipe spam was never a problem. Snipe has an audio queue, which is the same thing that Miat's does. (Miat's hurt mag sorcs the most because it made cFrags, dizzy, and other channeled attacks that DIDN'T have audio queues easily dodgeable). I still use Miat's for the nifty 3d keep icons and for the convenient AP tracking.

The sNBs who snipe spam are still 1vX fodder. I do use detect pots and i do enjoy slaughtering them back to back because they dont know any methods for mitigating damage besides vanish. Those sNBs tend to be the least-skilled players in the game and are not what I'm concerned about and not what I'm discussing here.

EDIT: Sevn i'm not trying to hide anything. You can watch some of my play sessions at and judge for yourself. I suggest starting with the clips. I play a stamden that is usually on a dizzy swing build (which was hurt by Miat's and, unlike snipe, DIDN'T have an audio queue...) Like sNB, stamden also needs a bit of a nerf and you can see me arguing for it in the stamden thread next to this one.

I appreciate your honesty, but let us be serious, even if you were dependent upon miats to combat cloakers, would you state so? It's rather embarrassing to acknowledge you needed to cheat to deal with them isn't it?

I'm not hiding anything as well, I admitted I'm a terrible nb but my stamsorc skills are exceptional. I just like to utilize my pretty kitty for more than just thieving lol.

A cloak nerf really won't affect my pvp, I'll simply rebuild into a unkillable heavy armor 60k health high regen build and carry on, but a nerf WILL impact my pve, and that is unacceptable for me.

This is why I'm suggesting asking for buffs to the counters instead of nerfing a key skill for thievery because a percentage of pvper's don't want to adjust their builds to deal with what is being claimed as the majority of pvper's in cyro.

I'll ask another simple question, if they did indeed improve the counters, would you all then be willing to adjust your builds?

I track my overall K/D in battlegrounds with addons. My K/D has gone up since the Miat's removal. Snipe spam is not a problem for me and you can see plenty of instances of me dodging and avoiding snipe in my videos without the use of the Miat's addon. It's the easiest skill to avoid in the game.

In regards to your second question... i DO use detect pots. But using a pot that doesn't grant me speed ruins my ability to fight nightblades (or any other stam class for that matter) who know how to LoS and kite.

If they made it so that i could make a detect pot that's also a speed / stam pot, and they made it so that I won't get any more forced "misses" due to the NBs cloak cancelling my attacks even when i can see them, I would be satisfied and would consider cloak balanced. This change would be hardly noticeable to the less-skilled nightblades, but would ruin the extra cheesy, unkillable trait of the stamblades who really know how to combine ALL of the defenses available to them.

Not sure why you have brought up snipe, twice now, the discussion is about cloakers and miat users that used miat to avoid all cloaked attacks, not just snipe.

I mean I agree with you, snipe spammers are easy prey, what good nb leads with snipe, one of the easiest skills to avoid when a heavy attack has no audio que, but it's whatever.

I just needed to know that you are at least willing to settle for buffs rather than stay hellbent on nerfing cloak.

I think you might be misinformed about what miat’s did. It alerted people to channeled and projectile attacks. This allows people to roll dodge the snipes that were being channeled.. but sNBs don’t really use too many other channeled attacks from stealth... unless you count opening with a heavy attack, which wasn’t really an issue anyway since you wouldn’t have to actually target your target so they wouldn’t get an alert.

Honestly I play on console so I have no idea how miats worked before, all I know is what I've read and how it completely destroyed stealth gameplay.

All I'm saying is if stamblades are as omnipresent as I am being lead to believe why in the world would you not plan for 90% of the enemies you're going to face?

When sorcs were everywhere I respeced my toons to deal with them and I'll do the same for any one class that I'll face if that one class is giving me problems.

All I know is when I PvP using a nb I can only cloak a maximum of 4 times before I'm completely out of magic. If a player is being outplayed by someone who can only cloak a handful of times, the problem is their build.

And let's be honest, if cloak gets nerfed and you all are still outplayed by nb's you'll all be asking for more nerfs. Anti-nb's are primarily why monster sets no longer crit, you guys are never satisfied until you have ruined every class but the one you all play.

Templars are op! Now Templars are trash. The list is endless.

Proc sets were literally the worst aspect of ESO PvP. It was a crutch, literally everyone admits it right now that PvP is much better without people getting one shot from viper+selene. Armor doing the combat for you is a dumb mechanic.

I don't find it very suprising for a guy who is defending the old proc meta to also come out and defend cloak in its current state. You need something to carry yourself, we get it. Stop making yourself look bad already.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

You can. In fact i think you´re completely mistaken and wrong that you expect an ability to work as a stable defense for your build without gearing towards using that ability in the slightest
AND that you get away with it more often than not indicates that something about that scenario is broken (imo the counters).

You don´t see a build setup around block as a defense with 10k base stamina and no sturdy.
You don´t see magica builds that want to dodgeroll a lot (ie malcolms magsorc builds) running around with no stamrec + 10k stam.

If you want an ability to work as a reliable defense for your build the game should require you to gear towards using it. For cloak this means getting magica pool + magica regeneration.
It should be "broken" for builds with baserec and base magica pool because if it is not it´s indeed "balanced" with the quotation marks being the important part.

So yeah - i think a build like you mentioned as your example here should not get away with cloak because your build is not suited to use it at all.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

You can. In fact i think you´re completely mistaken and wrong that you expect an ability to work as a stable defense for your build without gearing towards using that ability in the slightest
AND that you get away with it more often than not indicates that something about that scenario is broken (imo the counters).

You don´t see a build setup around block as a defense with 10k base stamina and no sturdy.
You don´t see magica builds that want to dodgeroll a lot (ie malcolms magsorc builds) running around with no stamrec + 10k stam.

If you want an ability to work as a reliable defense for your build the game should require you to gear towards using it. For cloak this means getting magica pool + magica regeneration.
It should be "broken" for builds with baserec and base magica pool because if it wasn´t it´s imbalanced (which is currently the case somewhat).

So yeah - i think a build like you mentioned as your example here should not get away with cloak because your build is not suited to use it at all.

Right, so what should I get away with then?


All I'm saying is that high damage builds are currently playable and feel balanced (well, the survivability aspect atleast ), but if one starts tinkering with their defensive capabilities at this point that won't be the case.


Let's say cloak becomes more expensive or has a stacking cost modifier. What happens?

1. Regen builds do what they always do, stack more regen & deal with it.
2. High damage builds become unplayable as they can't sacrifice any damage (that's the entire idea of these builds) without risking not being able to burst people down & being forced into ability spam oriented fights where they're at a severe disadvantage.

The end result is the same, more rollerblades (already the easiest & most popular playstyle) & less high damage builds.


...and that is what bothers me about threads like these, a lot of people posting don't really have a clue on stamblade beyond the popular dodge roll monkeys they see everywhere around Cyrodiil and then come to premature conclusions about how the class should be balanced, without really considering all the inner meta within the class.


Ironically a high damage stamblade is one of the best ways to punish people who expect cloak/dodge roll spamming to carry them.

These people have very little defenses & 20k'ish health pool, which is a guaranteed kill with Asylum Bow for example the moment they think they're safe and stop dodge rolling while you're stealthed nearby.

Ragnarock41

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

You can. In fact i think you´re completely mistaken and wrong that you expect an ability to work as a stable defense for your build without gearing towards using that ability in the slightest
AND that you get away with it more often than not indicates that something about that scenario is broken (imo the counters).

You don´t see a build setup around block as a defense with 10k base stamina and no sturdy.
You don´t see magica builds that want to dodgeroll a lot (ie malcolms magsorc builds) running around with no stamrec + 10k stam.

If you want an ability to work as a reliable defense for your build the game should require you to gear towards using it. For cloak this means getting magica pool + magica regeneration.
It should be "broken" for builds with baserec and base magica pool because if it wasn´t it´s imbalanced (which is currently the case somewhat).

So yeah - i think a build like you mentioned as your example here should not get away with cloak because your build is not suited to use it at all.

Right, so what should I get away with then?


All I'm saying is that high damage builds are currently playable and feel balanced (well, the survivability aspect atleast ), but if one starts tinkering with their defensive capabilities at this point that won't be the case.


Let's say cloak becomes more expensive or has a stacking cost modifier. What happens?

1. Regen builds do what they always do, stack more regen & deal with it.
2. High damage builds become unplayable as they can't sacrifice any damage (that's the entire idea of these builds) without risking not being able to burst people down & being forced into ability spam oriented fights where they're at a severe disadvantage.

The end result is the same, more rollerblades (already the easiest & most popular playstyle) & less high damage builds.


...and that is what bothers me about threads like these, a lot of people posting don't really have a clue on stamblade beyond the popular dodge roll monkeys they see everywhere around Cyrodiil and then come to premature conclusions about how the class should be balanced, without really considering all the inner meta within the class.

Then the solution should be penalizing the regen while in cloak. If a nerf is to aim the high regen rollerblades, that would be the solution that makes sense.

Qbiken

I´m more curious what you guys (@Derra and @DDuke) use on a regen build. I can´t get past the 1k magregen line on my stamblade.

Ragnarock41

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m more curious what you guys (@Derra and @DDuke) use on a regen build. I can´t get past the 1k magregen line on my stamblade.

there is a food/drink that gives max hp-stam and mag regen, If I'm not mistaken. that plus vampire and CP, will easily get you over 1k mag regen. Yes, you'll be missing out on max stamina, not a big deal trust me.

DDuke

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

You can. In fact i think you´re completely mistaken and wrong that you expect an ability to work as a stable defense for your build without gearing towards using that ability in the slightest
AND that you get away with it more often than not indicates that something about that scenario is broken (imo the counters).

You don´t see a build setup around block as a defense with 10k base stamina and no sturdy.
You don´t see magica builds that want to dodgeroll a lot (ie malcolms magsorc builds) running around with no stamrec + 10k stam.

If you want an ability to work as a reliable defense for your build the game should require you to gear towards using it. For cloak this means getting magica pool + magica regeneration.
It should be "broken" for builds with baserec and base magica pool because if it wasn´t it´s imbalanced (which is currently the case somewhat).

So yeah - i think a build like you mentioned as your example here should not get away with cloak because your build is not suited to use it at all.

Right, so what should I get away with then?


All I'm saying is that high damage builds are currently playable and feel balanced (well, the survivability aspect atleast ), but if one starts tinkering with their defensive capabilities at this point that won't be the case.


Let's say cloak becomes more expensive or has a stacking cost modifier. What happens?

1. Regen builds do what they always do, stack more regen & deal with it.
2. High damage builds become unplayable as they can't sacrifice any damage (that's the entire idea of these builds) without risking not being able to burst people down & being forced into ability spam oriented fights where they're at a severe disadvantage.

The end result is the same, more rollerblades (already the easiest & most popular playstyle) & less high damage builds.


...and that is what bothers me about threads like these, a lot of people posting don't really have a clue on stamblade beyond the popular dodge roll monkeys they see everywhere around Cyrodiil and then come to premature conclusions about how the class should be balanced, without really considering all the inner meta within the class.

Then the solution should be penalizing the regen while in cloak. If a nerf is to aim the high regen rollerblades, that would be the solution that makes sense.

...and now the high damage builds that are fine at the moment are no longer playable as sustain goes from difficult to impossible.

Sure, it'd hit rollerblades harder in that case (compared to the stacking cost modifier idea people have been floating), but it'd also make those high damage builds unplayable as they already operate at a bare minimum sustain.


With buffed 2367 stam regen & 704 mag regen casting cloak currently means exchanging 3004 [4050(cloak cost)-1056(1,5 regen ticks)] Magicka to get 3550 Stamina (1,5 regen ticks) back.

That's huge, even with relatively* low regen pools.

*I've already had to make some small sacrifices in damage by slotting Hawk's Eye/Marksman in order to not run out of stamina in 10 seconds.

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m more curious what you guys (@Derra and @DDuke) use on a regen build. I can´t get past the 1k magregen line on my stamblade.

Well, I get 704 with just vampirism and no potion buff (since you can't get speed potions with those).

Shacklebreaker+potion alone should bring mag regen to 1k+ and I know many people run regen on jewelry as well.

Thogard

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I'm starting to believe most if not all the anti-cloak posters play on pc? They never had to adapt or build for nb's because they were cheating with miats, now they are at a complete loss so nerfing is all they know?

I hate assuming so I'll just ask, what platform do you all play on? Thogard for sure plays pc, who else?

Miat's only helped with snipe, which is fine the way it is. i have no issue with snipe. The good NBs run poison injection with master bow anyway.

So you're confirming you did indeed use miats? Honestly can't tell.

What about you ragnarock? Nice sidestep, but you didn't answer the question? Do you play on pc and were you using miats?

For clarity, I've stated SEVERAL times I suck with a nb and cloak is indeed why I escape certain death. Thank you for verifying that the issue is letting us bad nb's escape your guaranteed kill with cloak.

Yes... and the removal of miat's hasn't affected me at all... Snipe spam was never a problem. Snipe has an audio queue, which is the same thing that Miat's does. (Miat's hurt mag sorcs the most because it made cFrags, dizzy, and other channeled attacks that DIDN'T have audio queues easily dodgeable). I still use Miat's for the nifty 3d keep icons and for the convenient AP tracking.

The sNBs who snipe spam are still 1vX fodder. I do use detect pots and i do enjoy slaughtering them back to back because they dont know any methods for mitigating damage besides vanish. Those sNBs tend to be the least-skilled players in the game and are not what I'm concerned about and not what I'm discussing here.

EDIT: Sevn i'm not trying to hide anything. You can watch some of my play sessions at and judge for yourself. I suggest starting with the clips. I play a stamden that is usually on a dizzy swing build (which was hurt by Miat's and, unlike snipe, DIDN'T have an audio queue...) Like sNB, stamden also needs a bit of a nerf and you can see me arguing for it in the stamden thread next to this one.

I appreciate your honesty, but let us be serious, even if you were dependent upon miats to combat cloakers, would you state so? It's rather embarrassing to acknowledge you needed to cheat to deal with them isn't it?

I'm not hiding anything as well, I admitted I'm a terrible nb but my stamsorc skills are exceptional. I just like to utilize my pretty kitty for more than just thieving lol.

A cloak nerf really won't affect my pvp, I'll simply rebuild into a unkillable heavy armor 60k health high regen build and carry on, but a nerf WILL impact my pve, and that is unacceptable for me.

This is why I'm suggesting asking for buffs to the counters instead of nerfing a key skill for thievery because a percentage of pvper's don't want to adjust their builds to deal with what is being claimed as the majority of pvper's in cyro.

I'll ask another simple question, if they did indeed improve the counters, would you all then be willing to adjust your builds?

I track my overall K/D in battlegrounds with addons. My K/D has gone up since the Miat's removal. Snipe spam is not a problem for me and you can see plenty of instances of me dodging and avoiding snipe in my videos without the use of the Miat's addon. It's the easiest skill to avoid in the game.

In regards to your second question... i DO use detect pots. But using a pot that doesn't grant me speed ruins my ability to fight nightblades (or any other stam class for that matter) who know how to LoS and kite.

If they made it so that i could make a detect pot that's also a speed / stam pot, and they made it so that I won't get any more forced "misses" due to the NBs cloak cancelling my attacks even when i can see them, I would be satisfied and would consider cloak balanced. This change would be hardly noticeable to the less-skilled nightblades, but would ruin the extra cheesy, unkillable trait of the stamblades who really know how to combine ALL of the defenses available to them.

Not sure why you have brought up snipe, twice now, the discussion is about cloakers and miat users that used miat to avoid all cloaked attacks, not just snipe.

I mean I agree with you, snipe spammers are easy prey, what good nb leads with snipe, one of the easiest skills to avoid when a heavy attack has no audio que, but it's whatever.

I just needed to know that you are at least willing to settle for buffs rather than stay hellbent on nerfing cloak.

I think you might be misinformed about what miat’s did. It alerted people to channeled and projectile attacks. This allows people to roll dodge the snipes that were being channeled.. but sNBs don’t really use too many other channeled attacks from stealth... unless you count opening with a heavy attack, which wasn’t really an issue anyway since you wouldn’t have to actually target your target so they wouldn’t get an alert.

Honestly I play on console so I have no idea how miats worked before, all I know is what I've read and how it completely destroyed stealth gameplay.

All I'm saying is if stamblades are as omnipresent as I am being lead to believe why in the world would you not plan for 90% of the enemies you're going to face?

When sorcs were everywhere I respeced my toons to deal with them and I'll do the same for any one class that I'll face if that one class is giving me problems.

All I know is when I PvP using a nb I can only cloak a maximum of 4 times before I'm completely out of magic. If a player is being outplayed by someone who can only cloak a handful of times, the problem is their build.

And let's be honest, if cloak gets nerfed and you all are still outplayed by nb's you'll all be asking for more nerfs. Anti-nb's are primarily why monster sets no longer crit, you guys are never satisfied until you have ruined every class but the one you all play.

Templars are op! Now Templars are trash. The list is endless.

They aren’t 90%... closer to 50%

But I do plan for them. I have detect pots for No CP BGs. I also have a spin2win build specifically for pulling bad NBs out of stealth.

You’re assuming that I don’t slaughter most NBs. I do. I know all the counters and I use them when appropriate. But my ability to slaughter them is solely because they do not know how to play their own class.

I am not concerned with balancing a class based on the performance of those who do not know how to play it. I am concerned with balancing around the NBs who know how to counter the cloak counters.


BTW - you mentioned you play a Stam sorc main. That is the one class that Doesn’t have to make build sacrifices to fight stamblades. Please play any other class and see how tricky it is to pin them down.

DDuke

Thogard wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

You can. In fact i think you´re completely mistaken and wrong that you expect an ability to work as a stable defense for your build without gearing towards using that ability in the slightest
AND that you get away with it more often than not indicates that something about that scenario is broken (imo the counters).

You don´t see a build setup around block as a defense with 10k base stamina and no sturdy.
You don´t see magica builds that want to dodgeroll a lot (ie malcolms magsorc builds) running around with no stamrec + 10k stam.

If you want an ability to work as a reliable defense for your build the game should require you to gear towards using it. For cloak this means getting magica pool + magica regeneration.
It should be "broken" for builds with baserec and base magica pool because if it is not it´s indeed "balanced" with the quotation marks being the important part.

So yeah - i think a build like you mentioned as your example here should not get away with cloak because your build is not suited to use it at all.

Well put.

DDuke you can’t argue that cloak shouldn’t be nerfed due to the fact that some builds don’t build around using it. This game is based around trade offs - having to sacrifice one thing to get another. But you’re saying that you want to be able to build for pure damage and still have the protection of cloak.... ok I understand that. But there are plenty of sNBs out there - the majority of good ones - that have more balanced builds that really enable them to get plenty of usage out of cloak.

If nightblades had bad damage anyway, you might have a point. But they don’t have bad damage... they have amazing damage.

I think there's a misconception here between "building around cloak" and "building around regen".

See, cloak is actually much, much more important for high damage builds than it is for regen based builds, as your whole game plan is to avoid being detected. Being detected & out of position=death, there is no room for mistakes on these builds.

Cloak is what enables these builds, despite not building around ability spam oriented gameplay.

Thogard wrote: »

So yes, if you choose to purposely run a bad or suboptimal build, you shouldn’t expect any balance decisions to be based around you. Balance is determined based on what players CAN do at the highest level... not what they actually do at moderate levels. I’m not saying that you’re not playing at a high level, just that you shouldn’t expect to be used as a balance “benchmark” if you’re intentionally underutilizing it in order to focus on a different play style.

Well that's interesting, because I don't think stamblades at the highest level can do more than other classes - they're just as good. I can find evidence of this by watching 1vX videos from other people of other classes, I can find evidence of this by visiting the duel spot.

At the lowest level however (rollerblades) they're much, much, easier to play which is why they're so popular.

Your mistakes aren't being punished enough on stamblade when you build for high regen, enough health & enough impen, that's what infinite sustain does.


That doesn't mean these builds are stronger in competitive play however, as most of them have to spend minutes dodge rolling around a tree or a tower to get a single kill with Incap Relentless & usually only pose danger to pugs.

In the same time it takes these builds to kill one opponent, I can get 10 kills on a ("bad" and "suboptimal") high damage build, if I don't make mistakes.

Thogard

DDuke wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

You can. In fact i think you´re completely mistaken and wrong that you expect an ability to work as a stable defense for your build without gearing towards using that ability in the slightest
AND that you get away with it more often than not indicates that something about that scenario is broken (imo the counters).

You don´t see a build setup around block as a defense with 10k base stamina and no sturdy.
You don´t see magica builds that want to dodgeroll a lot (ie malcolms magsorc builds) running around with no stamrec + 10k stam.

If you want an ability to work as a reliable defense for your build the game should require you to gear towards using it. For cloak this means getting magica pool + magica regeneration.
It should be "broken" for builds with baserec and base magica pool because if it is not it´s indeed "balanced" with the quotation marks being the important part.

So yeah - i think a build like you mentioned as your example here should not get away with cloak because your build is not suited to use it at all.

Well put.

DDuke you can’t argue that cloak shouldn’t be nerfed due to the fact that some builds don’t build around using it. This game is based around trade offs - having to sacrifice one thing to get another. But you’re saying that you want to be able to build for pure damage and still have the protection of cloak.... ok I understand that. But there are plenty of sNBs out there - the majority of good ones - that have more balanced builds that really enable them to get plenty of usage out of cloak.

If nightblades had bad damage anyway, you might have a point. But they don’t have bad damage... they have amazing damage.

I think there's a misconception here between "building around cloak" and "building around regen".

See, cloak is actually much, much more important for high damage builds than it is for regen based builds, as your whole game plan is to avoid being detected. Being detected & out of position=death, there is no room for mistakes on these builds.

Cloak is what enables these builds, despite not building around ability spam oriented gameplay.

Thogard wrote: »

So yes, if you choose to purposely run a bad or suboptimal build, you shouldn’t expect any balance decisions to be based around you. Balance is determined based on what players CAN do at the highest level... not what they actually do at moderate levels. I’m not saying that you’re not playing at a high level, just that you shouldn’t expect to be used as a balance “benchmark” if you’re intentionally underutilizing it in order to focus on a different play style.

Well that's interesting, because I don't think stamblades at the highest level can do more than other classes - they're just as good. I can find evidence of this by watching 1vX videos from other people of other classes, I can find evidence of this by visiting the duel spot.

At the lowest level however (rollerblades) they're much, much, easier to play which is why they're so popular.

Your mistakes aren't being punished enough on stamblade when you build for high regen, enough health & enough impen, that's what infinite sustain does.


That doesn't mean these builds are stronger in competitive play however, as most of them have to spend minutes dodge rolling around a tree or a tower to get a single kill with Incap Relentless & usually only pose danger to pugs.

In the same time it takes these builds to kill one opponent, I can get 10 kills on a ("bad" and "suboptimal") high damage build, if I don't make mistakes.

I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just having trouble understanding what that has to do with anything. I’d certainly hope you can get more kills on your high damage build. I often run a 6.2k wep dmg build so I understand what you’re saying re: building for kills vs building for sustain. Who needs sustain when your opponents die in 3 seconds, right?

What I’m saying is... doesn’t your post there imply that cloak SHOULD get nerfed? Why should you get to cloak five times and nullify all non-AOE damage when you’ve specced entirely for damage? Why should cloak be just as effective for you as it is for the stamblades that run shackle just to be able to use cloak? You can’t do it as often, but with a high damage build, do you really need to do it as often?

But yeah rollerblades aren’t the lowest level. Lowest level would be snipe spammers. Those are the guys who, when I pop a detect pot, just stand there and let me dizzy swing them. No defense other than cloak - not even a roll. Then at the next level you get the ones that figure out how to roll dodge and the ones that figured out how to get carried by proc sets.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Until it is possible to make a speed / detect pot, the pot counter is NOT viable. No speed for 45s means I am utterly kitable. And if anyone suggests I use rapids I will mock that person relentlessly for clearly never having played PvP in any capacity other than as a zergling.

technohic

I’ve been running bombard and it’s helped a lot; but there is a good point about not building for cloak yet having it as a defense 4 or 5 times. I’m not sold that cloak as a tool to be elusive should be nerfed though. That’s how Nightblades should play.

I think maim and defile are overturned to where major should be what minor is now and minor should then be half that. MBs have easy access to both.

I also think NB has 3 stuns available and at least 2 can be buggy to be broken which makes their ability to cloak out and restun put them ahead in a resource drain race. That needs adjusting.

And attacking from stealth is enough if a boost and so is escaping combat. I’d rather the actual cloak that is going to still be here next patch, purge rather than guarantee crits. Whether it’s heals or a DOT. Or better yet; not purge just snare and root removal

I guess I do agree NBs are top dog maybe even over stamden, but I play the class and do not want them the identities and fun removed. And recourse timers like streak and we still have sorcs who build to spam it. It would be a bit heavy handed considering NBs don’t have the tool to convert stam into magicka and health.

DDuke

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

You can. In fact i think you´re completely mistaken and wrong that you expect an ability to work as a stable defense for your build without gearing towards using that ability in the slightest
AND that you get away with it more often than not indicates that something about that scenario is broken (imo the counters).

You don´t see a build setup around block as a defense with 10k base stamina and no sturdy.
You don´t see magica builds that want to dodgeroll a lot (ie malcolms magsorc builds) running around with no stamrec + 10k stam.

If you want an ability to work as a reliable defense for your build the game should require you to gear towards using it. For cloak this means getting magica pool + magica regeneration.
It should be "broken" for builds with baserec and base magica pool because if it is not it´s indeed "balanced" with the quotation marks being the important part.

So yeah - i think a build like you mentioned as your example here should not get away with cloak because your build is not suited to use it at all.

Well put.

DDuke you can’t argue that cloak shouldn’t be nerfed due to the fact that some builds don’t build around using it. This game is based around trade offs - having to sacrifice one thing to get another. But you’re saying that you want to be able to build for pure damage and still have the protection of cloak.... ok I understand that. But there are plenty of sNBs out there - the majority of good ones - that have more balanced builds that really enable them to get plenty of usage out of cloak.

If nightblades had bad damage anyway, you might have a point. But they don’t have bad damage... they have amazing damage.

I think there's a misconception here between "building around cloak" and "building around regen".

See, cloak is actually much, much more important for high damage builds than it is for regen based builds, as your whole game plan is to avoid being detected. Being detected & out of position=death, there is no room for mistakes on these builds.

Cloak is what enables these builds, despite not building around ability spam oriented gameplay.

Thogard wrote: »

So yes, if you choose to purposely run a bad or suboptimal build, you shouldn’t expect any balance decisions to be based around you. Balance is determined based on what players CAN do at the highest level... not what they actually do at moderate levels. I’m not saying that you’re not playing at a high level, just that you shouldn’t expect to be used as a balance “benchmark” if you’re intentionally underutilizing it in order to focus on a different play style.

Well that's interesting, because I don't think stamblades at the highest level can do more than other classes - they're just as good. I can find evidence of this by watching 1vX videos from other people of other classes, I can find evidence of this by visiting the duel spot.

At the lowest level however (rollerblades) they're much, much, easier to play which is why they're so popular.

Your mistakes aren't being punished enough on stamblade when you build for high regen, enough health & enough impen, that's what infinite sustain does.


That doesn't mean these builds are stronger in competitive play however, as most of them have to spend minutes dodge rolling around a tree or a tower to get a single kill with Incap Relentless & usually only pose danger to pugs.

In the same time it takes these builds to kill one opponent, I can get 10 kills on a ("bad" and "suboptimal") high damage build, if I don't make mistakes.

I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just having trouble understanding what that has to do with anything. I’d certainly hope you can get more kills on your high damage build. I often run a 6.2k wep dmg build so I understand what you’re saying re: building for kills vs building for sustain. Who needs sustain when your opponents die in 3 seconds, right?

What I’m saying is... doesn’t your post there imply that cloak SHOULD get nerfed? Why should you get to cloak five times and nullify all non-AOE damage when you’ve specced entirely for damage? Why should cloak be just as effective for you as it is for the stamblades that run shackle just to be able to use cloak? You can’t do it as often, but with a high damage build, do you really need to do it as often?

Not really, because unlike rollerblades if you break my cloak a few times (or I use it at the wrong times), I'm out of magicka. High damage builds do get punished by mistakes, as they should.

I.e. it's balanced.

Rollerblades however really aren't, and that's the real issue. If one was to look at how those builds can be tuned down, then something like a 1s-2s cooldown on using cloak after it gets broken would be in place (as high dmg builds can't spam it anyway).

Anything that negatively affects sustain of high dmg stamblade builds at this point risks ruining the entire playstyle, they're already operating at bare minimum sustain.

Thogard wrote: »

But yeah rollerblades aren’t the lowest level. Lowest level would be snipe spammers. Those are the guys who, when I pop a detect pot, just stand there and let me dizzy swing them. No defense other than cloak - not even a roll. Then at the next level you get the ones that figure out how to roll dodge and the ones that figured out how to get carried by proc sets.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Until it is possible to make a speed / detect pot, the pot counter is NOT viable. No speed for 45s means I am utterly kitable. And if anyone suggests I use rapids I will mock that person relentlessly for clearly never having played PvP in any capacity other than as a zergling.

Don't you get speed from Bird of Prey as stam warden though?

I do play other classes than my stamblade and rarely have issues with stamblades kiting or escaping from me. Some good ones do (usually requires Shadow Image), but a bad stamblade is probably the easiest kill you can hope for in Cyrodiil.

On my mDK just for an example I have Empowering Chains & Volatile Armor to efficiently deal with cloaking & any kiting attempt and they're skills I use in a lot of other situations as well.

But yeah, I've had those duels vs rollerblades where you burst them, they drop to 20-30%, spam dodge roll for a while, shadow image, cloak and fight reset... I can sympathize because that's frustrating af, but I think the main issue is that they're able to sustain doing that infinitely, not that cloak is overperforming or anything.

Derra

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

700 mag regen 4050 magicka cost 3s duration

With 10k mag pool I can cloak 4 times in a row before running completely out of magicka.


Just goes to showcase the differences between different stamblade builds.

Can't "balance" (like people have been suggesting here) one without breaking the other.

You can. In fact i think you´re completely mistaken and wrong that you expect an ability to work as a stable defense for your build without gearing towards using that ability in the slightest
AND that you get away with it more often than not indicates that something about that scenario is broken (imo the counters).

You don´t see a build setup around block as a defense with 10k base stamina and no sturdy.
You don´t see magica builds that want to dodgeroll a lot (ie malcolms magsorc builds) running around with no stamrec + 10k stam.

If you want an ability to work as a reliable defense for your build the game should require you to gear towards using it. For cloak this means getting magica pool + magica regeneration.
It should be "broken" for builds with baserec and base magica pool because if it wasn´t it´s imbalanced (which is currently the case somewhat).

So yeah - i think a build like you mentioned as your example here should not get away with cloak because your build is not suited to use it at all.

Right, so what should I get away with then?


All I'm saying is that high damage builds are currently playable and feel balanced (well, the survivability aspect atleast ), but if one starts tinkering with their defensive capabilities at this point that won't be the case.


Let's say cloak becomes more expensive or has a stacking cost modifier. What happens?

1. Regen builds do what they always do, stack more regen & deal with it.
2. High damage builds become unplayable as they can't sacrifice any damage (that's the entire idea of these builds) without risking not being able to burst people down & being forced into ability spam oriented fights where they're at a severe disadvantage.

The end result is the same, more rollerblades (already the easiest & most popular playstyle) & less high damage builds.


...and that is what bothers me about threads like these, a lot of people posting don't really have a clue on stamblade beyond the popular dodge roll monkeys they see everywhere around Cyrodiil and then come to premature conclusions about how the class should be balanced, without really considering all the inner meta within the class.

Then the solution should be penalizing the regen while in cloak. If a nerf is to aim the high regen rollerblades, that would be the solution that makes sense.

Would also nerf magblades way more - which is something i disagree with personally.

I really feel cloak and stamblade do not need nerfs. The only thing that needs to happen is that counters get more accessible and useful against other builds (while also mark target gets turned down A LOT).

I don´t think nightblade/cloak is broken - the counters are.
Magelight, evilhunter and flare in a way that they´re not useful/good enough. Piercing mark in a way that it´s way too good.

Shinshadow

Maryal wrote: »

Here is the official word from ZOS regarding NBs:

https://twitch.tv/videos/247754193?t=2h46m26s


(see video at 2 hrs. 26 min. 28 seconds)

Damn right.

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed a great number of baiting, non-constructive, and insulting comments from this thread. Please keep the discussion civil and respectful, otherwise we will have to consider closing it down. Thank you for your understanding.

lazerlaz

ZOS, for the love of Molag Bal, please close this thread and any other related.

Millz

cloak not a problem, incap is overperforming

Seraphayel

lazerlaz wrote: »

ZOS, for the love of Molag Bal, please close this thread and any other related.

That won't make the issues disappear.

Thogard

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

technohic

Thogard wrote: »

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

I always wished there was a magicka inclusive speed pot. Doubt I will see one.

They also fixed the crit being consumed by DOTs so this will be a wash if not a buff as now the NB could more easily make sure Rally gets the crit. Although; the notes do say "now only affects the next direct attack." Wonder if that will work. If not' you'll just wind up with the high damage guys cloaking into their burst combo.

Seraphayel

Thogard wrote: »

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

I need the patch notes.

lazerlaz

Seraphayel wrote: »

lazerlaz wrote: »

ZOS, for the love of Molag Bal, please close this thread and any other related.

That won't make the issues disappear.

Lol I know. Poor dead horse.

DDuke

technohic wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

I always wished there was a magicka inclusive speed pot. Doubt I will see one.

They also fixed the crit being consumed by DOTs so this will be a wash if not a buff as now the NB could more easily make sure Rally gets the crit. Although; the notes do say "now only affects the next direct attack." Wonder if that will work. If not' you'll just wind up with the high damage guys cloaking into their burst combo.

Yeah, it's a buff in most cases (almost every build has DoTs of some kind).

At the moment the very first DoT tick on anyone while cloaked puts an end to those "guaranteed crit" heals and also makes sure your next direct damage attack isn't a crit. I've been running Dark Cloak for over a year now because of that.

Thogard

DDuke wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

I always wished there was a magicka inclusive speed pot. Doubt I will see one.

They also fixed the crit being consumed by DOTs so this will be a wash if not a buff as now the NB could more easily make sure Rally gets the crit. Although; the notes do say "now only affects the next direct attack." Wonder if that will work. If not' you'll just wind up with the high damage guys cloaking into their burst combo.

Yeah, it's a buff in most cases (almost every build has DoTs of some kind).

At the moment the very first DoT tick on anyone while cloaked puts an end to those "guaranteed crit" heals and also makes sure your next direct damage attack isn't a crit. I've been running Dark Cloak for over a year now because of that.

You could always just count out your dots...

Thogard

technohic wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

I always wished there was a magicka inclusive speed pot. Doubt I will see one.

They also fixed the crit being consumed by DOTs so this will be a wash if not a buff as now the NB could more easily make sure Rally gets the crit. Although; the notes do say "now only affects the next direct attack." Wonder if that will work. If not' you'll just wind up with the high damage guys cloaking into their burst combo.

I’m OK with that. It isn’t the NBs playing that style that are abusing it - it’s the ones that don’t run any bleeds and who can reliably get the Crit heals that needed the nerf. This way, they get nerfed and the rest of the NBs are left alone. That’s great IMO.

DDuke

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

I always wished there was a magicka inclusive speed pot. Doubt I will see one.

They also fixed the crit being consumed by DOTs so this will be a wash if not a buff as now the NB could more easily make sure Rally gets the crit. Although; the notes do say "now only affects the next direct attack." Wonder if that will work. If not' you'll just wind up with the high damage guys cloaking into their burst combo.

Yeah, it's a buff in most cases (almost every build has DoTs of some kind).

At the moment the very first DoT tick on anyone while cloaked puts an end to those "guaranteed crit" heals and also makes sure your next direct damage attack isn't a crit. I've been running Dark Cloak for over a year now because of that.

You could always just count out your dots...

To what, get one or two guaranteed crit Vigor ticks before the next DoT tick consumes the buff? Or cloak right after a DoT tick & then Rally for guaranteed crit?

People have floated that idea, but it's not practical, especially when you have multiple DoTs with your build, many of which you have no control over (e.g. Axe Bleed, Poisoned Status Effect).

Minalan

technohic wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

I always wished there was a magicka inclusive speed pot. Doubt I will see one.

They also fixed the crit being consumed by DOTs so this will be a wash if not a buff as now the NB could more easily make sure Rally gets the crit. Although; the notes do say "now only affects the next direct attack." Wonder if that will work. If not' you'll just wind up with the high damage guys cloaking into their burst combo.

This pretty much balances nightblades out. They won’t be healing from execute range to full on every cloak now. Honestly that was the only real issue I had with the class, and it was a BUG.

Now a stamblade will just hop to their free-cast shadow image pet if they’re badly hurt. But they won’t be keeping infinite “lol full health again” pressure on you. This takes some of the frustration out of the ‘pop goes the weasel’ game when fighting one.

technohic

Minalan wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Huzzah!

Guaranteed Crit heals from vanish are no more.
Also the Crit dmg bonuses not affecting healing is also a nice change.

And two new alchemy ingredients.... could it be?? Could one of them have speed and detect?? Must find out...

I always wished there was a magicka inclusive speed pot. Doubt I will see one.

They also fixed the crit being consumed by DOTs so this will be a wash if not a buff as now the NB could more easily make sure Rally gets the crit. Although; the notes do say "now only affects the next direct attack." Wonder if that will work. If not' you'll just wind up with the high damage guys cloaking into their burst combo.

This pretty much balances nightblades out. They won’t be healing from execute range to full on every cloak now. Honestly that was the only real issue I had with the class, and it was a BUG.

Now a stamblade will just hop to their free-cast shadow image pet if they’re badly hurt. But they won’t be keeping infinite “lol full health again” pressure on you. This takes some of the frustration out of the ‘pop goes the weasel’ game when fighting one.

Very true. And a lot is being made of the place anywhere shadow image but if they put it behind LOS; it cant hit you with maim