Don't you think it's time to do something against Cloak & Stam(blades), ZOS?

Derra

thankyourat wrote: »

But my argument is that 1v1 the person who turtles will never die on my magblade I can spam Cloak and on my sorc I can spam shields either way I stack regen really high on both to where if I just wanted to be a troll no one would ever kill me 1v1. I'm pretty sure if I had a magplar or warden I could do the same thing and just stall out 1v1 fights. If anything my magsorc is more survivable than my magblade open world even with Cloak once I get the 1vX I want.

Prettz sure 95% of all arguments about cloak are about stamblades.

Magblades have issues with roots + snare and are generally speaking a backloaded burst class.
Stamblades in medium are mobile by design which synergises greatly with cloak and have frontloaded burst (yes there are potent frontloaded magblade procc builds this patch but they´re squish compared to stamblades due to bad defense synergies with cloak).

Stalling out the fight isn´t the same as resetting/controlling it.
A class that can push for a stall is generally speaking not dangerous bc they have to invest into def (apart from shieldstack sorc under certain circumstances).
A stam nb trying rinse repeat incap combos is dangerous to the point where a wonky cc break might kill you (and you have no control over this except for waddling to the next keep/outpost/resource holding block).

Seraphayel

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

olsborg

Id love for invisibility/cloak to get some severe limitations. Im sick of how many nbs are in cyro. I wanna be rare again^^

brandonv516

DDuke wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

That's fine. Just as long as when that 1-2 seconds is done, I can cast it and remove snares and get 5s of immunity so I can get out of the AoEs that come with snares.

Got Shuffle for that :P

...still, I feel like clarifying my statement: AoEs should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds if they reveal you from cloak.

Not just getting hit by an AoE when fighting someone outside stealth, that'd be bonkers

Magblades...? Again I'd be okay with being prevented but I don't want to be locked down where it just becomes a cycle with no exit.

DDuke

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.

When built towards it.

Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.

If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).

Ragnaroek93

Couldn't wait a few days for patchnotes before creating another nerf thread? Maybe I should create a nerf magicka thread, because light attack scaling already looks OP on paper

Seraphayel

DDuke wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.

When built towards it.

Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.

If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).

Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:

1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills

2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less

DDuke

brandonv516 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

That's fine. Just as long as when that 1-2 seconds is done, I can cast it and remove snares and get 5s of immunity so I can get out of the AoEs that come with snares.

Got Shuffle for that :P

...still, I feel like clarifying my statement: AoEs should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds if they reveal you from cloak.

Not just getting hit by an AoE when fighting someone outside stealth, that'd be bonkers

Magblades...? Again I'd be okay with being prevented but I don't want to be locked down where it just becomes a cycle with no exit.

Well, currently it's just Shadow Image that can help there & some sets like Wyrd Tree (if next patch wasn't coming so soon, I'd definitely try this set on off bar).

Next update though there should be more options to deal with such situations (e.g. the new Psijic ulti), I'm gonna test things out on PTS next Monday.

DDuke

Seraphayel wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.

When built towards it.

Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.

If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).

Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:

1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills

2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less

If cloak is the core problem as you put it, then it'd be equally (or even more) broken on non-regen oriented builds.

This is not the case however, you're heavily punished for being badly positioned or using your cloak at wrong times and the gameplay is actually high risk high reward, it is incredibly easy to die on these types of builds.


The fact of the matter is that the skill is only a problem on high regen builds where it allows extremely low risk gameplay, and the actual core problem is being able to stack regen (both mag regen & stam regen) to such absurd numbers.

Ragnaroek93

Seraphayel wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.

When built towards it.

Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.

If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).

Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:

1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills

2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less

And after nerfing Cloak you would have nothing against stamina getting as much defense as magicka has? Since magicka gets light attacks buffed it would be only fair for stamina to get the same overdefense, sustain and pressure which magicka has, wouldn't it?

Joy_Division

Thogard wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nope. I don't think ZoS needs to do anything about Cloak or Stamblades.

What ZOS needs to do is stop nerfing my class so I have decent and capable tools to use against Cloak and Stamblades.

If you expect to hit a cloaking rollerblade with your jabs in the current server infrastructure, I got some bad news for you...

I don't expect my jabs to hit anything with the current infrastructure. Giving me my stun back on blazing spear, so it useful more than just a "where did the NB go?" skill and to stop nerfing the crap out of my healing so I might actually be able to recover upon failing to find said NB would be a step in the right direction and something I'd be willing to try before any more nerfs.

ak_pvp

DDuke wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Hey, anyone who thinks cloak is fine, can I please have infinite reflects back. Its only projectiles, and a limited number too, whereas cloak is any ST not already on before, dots, and makes you invisible. I would even take an absorb/deflect, so no one can argue about the reflect portion.

You can have infinite reflects when my bowblade (whose pretty much every skill gets reflected btw!) has access to abilities that make those infinite reflects disappear until you cast wings again

Dyride wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Zzz... another of these threads.

Anyone thinking cloak is the issue: try playing a high damage build with limited sustain and say that again after you run out of magicka with just 3 consecutive cloaks.

The only thing making cloak sustain more difficult does is it makes the actual fotm meta 3k+ stam regen 1k mag regen builds stack more mag regen while high damage builds that are already more difficult to play become entirely unplayable.

You definitely hit the nail on the head. The builds people are raging about are the seeming "impossible" builds which cloak way more than the NB forum warriors would have you believe is possible.

Regen-build NBs shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do currently. However the only change I think to be fair would be reducing the Major Defile duration to match the Incap stun at 3 secs instead of 6 secs.

I don't think Cloak needs a nerf in stacking cost/reduced regen/no healing. Detect potions allowing single target abilities to hit would be the first and most important change. Right now, I will use waste a Detect potion and still all my abilities MISS MISS MISS as they only have to cloak to force miss, kite from their Shade and use it to escape.

Some of the other counters could be slightly buffed: range of Evil Hunter increased slightly or cost reduced, pulling NB from stealth with AOE should prevent re-cloaking for 1 sec (enough time for one skill cast), Detect potions with more variety of effects but only provide Detect to person using potion.

I'm quite sure Evil/Camo Hunter don't actually increase detection radius currently - they just prevent someone within 6m radius of you from stealthing by locking stealth for 3s should they try to do so while you have the skill activated (only 5s duration on activation).

Overall it's a bad skill mostly used for passives on most builds (ironically it's used by a lot of gank builds to maximize damage from stealth). Should definitely get some buffs.


Radiant Magelight is a different story since it has 12m radius, which is more than stealth detection radius vs most characters.


I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

It's one way to affect the infinite regen builds without ruining the high damage limited sustain builds, as those builds aren't able to spam cloak every 1s (if it keeps getting broken) anyway.

Deal. Wings now reflects/deflects all ranged attacks for 3s. Unless its something like potl/curse, only if its cast before wings though.

You can break it with an AoE, but to match the difficulty of the whackamole vs invis NB, it has to be a targetted one, like endless hail, eruption etc. Something expensive and difficult to hit them with.

Also a potion, usable only 1/3 of the time at a limited range, and its not a guarantee, because a DK should be able to forceflap a reflect even when countered.

And of course, the token skill from the same class that actually hardcounters them, maybe engulfing?

But remember, the counters have to be useless against every other spec. Also, for a while we can have snares break wings, then because zos can't fix it, we should give it snare immunity whilst active

I'd happily except.

DDuke

ak_pvp wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Hey, anyone who thinks cloak is fine, can I please have infinite reflects back. Its only projectiles, and a limited number too, whereas cloak is any ST not already on before, dots, and makes you invisible. I would even take an absorb/deflect, so no one can argue about the reflect portion.

You can have infinite reflects when my bowblade (whose pretty much every skill gets reflected btw!) has access to abilities that make those infinite reflects disappear until you cast wings again

Dyride wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Zzz... another of these threads.

Anyone thinking cloak is the issue: try playing a high damage build with limited sustain and say that again after you run out of magicka with just 3 consecutive cloaks.

The only thing making cloak sustain more difficult does is it makes the actual fotm meta 3k+ stam regen 1k mag regen builds stack more mag regen while high damage builds that are already more difficult to play become entirely unplayable.

You definitely hit the nail on the head. The builds people are raging about are the seeming "impossible" builds which cloak way more than the NB forum warriors would have you believe is possible.

Regen-build NBs shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do currently. However the only change I think to be fair would be reducing the Major Defile duration to match the Incap stun at 3 secs instead of 6 secs.

I don't think Cloak needs a nerf in stacking cost/reduced regen/no healing. Detect potions allowing single target abilities to hit would be the first and most important change. Right now, I will use waste a Detect potion and still all my abilities MISS MISS MISS as they only have to cloak to force miss, kite from their Shade and use it to escape.

Some of the other counters could be slightly buffed: range of Evil Hunter increased slightly or cost reduced, pulling NB from stealth with AOE should prevent re-cloaking for 1 sec (enough time for one skill cast), Detect potions with more variety of effects but only provide Detect to person using potion.

I'm quite sure Evil/Camo Hunter don't actually increase detection radius currently - they just prevent someone within 6m radius of you from stealthing by locking stealth for 3s should they try to do so while you have the skill activated (only 5s duration on activation).

Overall it's a bad skill mostly used for passives on most builds (ironically it's used by a lot of gank builds to maximize damage from stealth). Should definitely get some buffs.


Radiant Magelight is a different story since it has 12m radius, which is more than stealth detection radius vs most characters.


I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

It's one way to affect the infinite regen builds without ruining the high damage limited sustain builds, as those builds aren't able to spam cloak every 1s (if it keeps getting broken) anyway.

Deal. Wings now reflects/deflects all ranged attacks for 3s. Unless its something like potl/curse, only if its cast before wings though.

You can break it with an AoE, but to match the difficulty of the whackamole vs invis NB, it has to be a targetted one, like endless hail, eruption etc. Something expensive and difficult to hit them with.

Something like... bombard?

Sounds good to me, but you probably wouldn't like it after seeing how that works out in practice...


Also, Piercing Mark (or some other skill) would permanently disable your Wings - you know, just to keep things even.

Strider__Roshin

I love the fact that they're creating a split in the Nightblade class. Wanna be stealthy? Use shadowy disguise. Wanna be tanky? Use Dark Cloak (or whatever it'll be called). Stamblades will finally be able to choose to not be squishy. But then again if the minor protection only lasts 3-5 seconds then they may still be on the squishy side, but less so.

ak_pvp

DDuke wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Hey, anyone who thinks cloak is fine, can I please have infinite reflects back. Its only projectiles, and a limited number too, whereas cloak is any ST not already on before, dots, and makes you invisible. I would even take an absorb/deflect, so no one can argue about the reflect portion.

You can have infinite reflects when my bowblade (whose pretty much every skill gets reflected btw!) has access to abilities that make those infinite reflects disappear until you cast wings again

Dyride wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Zzz... another of these threads.

Anyone thinking cloak is the issue: try playing a high damage build with limited sustain and say that again after you run out of magicka with just 3 consecutive cloaks.

The only thing making cloak sustain more difficult does is it makes the actual fotm meta 3k+ stam regen 1k mag regen builds stack more mag regen while high damage builds that are already more difficult to play become entirely unplayable.

You definitely hit the nail on the head. The builds people are raging about are the seeming "impossible" builds which cloak way more than the NB forum warriors would have you believe is possible.

Regen-build NBs shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do currently. However the only change I think to be fair would be reducing the Major Defile duration to match the Incap stun at 3 secs instead of 6 secs.

I don't think Cloak needs a nerf in stacking cost/reduced regen/no healing. Detect potions allowing single target abilities to hit would be the first and most important change. Right now, I will use waste a Detect potion and still all my abilities MISS MISS MISS as they only have to cloak to force miss, kite from their Shade and use it to escape.

Some of the other counters could be slightly buffed: range of Evil Hunter increased slightly or cost reduced, pulling NB from stealth with AOE should prevent re-cloaking for 1 sec (enough time for one skill cast), Detect potions with more variety of effects but only provide Detect to person using potion.

I'm quite sure Evil/Camo Hunter don't actually increase detection radius currently - they just prevent someone within 6m radius of you from stealthing by locking stealth for 3s should they try to do so while you have the skill activated (only 5s duration on activation).

Overall it's a bad skill mostly used for passives on most builds (ironically it's used by a lot of gank builds to maximize damage from stealth). Should definitely get some buffs.


Radiant Magelight is a different story since it has 12m radius, which is more than stealth detection radius vs most characters.


I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

It's one way to affect the infinite regen builds without ruining the high damage limited sustain builds, as those builds aren't able to spam cloak every 1s (if it keeps getting broken) anyway.

Deal. Wings now reflects/deflects all ranged attacks for 3s. Unless its something like potl/curse, only if its cast before wings though.

You can break it with an AoE, but to match the difficulty of the whackamole vs invis NB, it has to be a targetted one, like endless hail, eruption etc. Something expensive and difficult to hit them with.

Something like... bombard?

Sounds good to me, but you probably wouldn't like it after seeing how that works out in practice...


Also, Piercing Mark would permanently disable your Wings - you know, just to keep things even.

Mark->Cloak
DK skill -> Wings. Which is why I said engulfing flames to disable wings. (Not really any long lasting effects)

I probably would prefer it to wings of today, which are completely useless OW. Since like cloak, the counters are in my favor, and to break it a class would have to run a limited and sacrificial counter like pots. Or have to deal with landing something awkward to land on a slippery target. (Any AOEs on invisible, vs targetted AoEs on visible) wheras on my end it would mitigate a lot and scale better than a defense like block, and have more scope on what/how much is reflected.

But lets flip the argument on its head. Cloak can now totally has a limit on how much, and what type of damage, only single target hits it can cloak against, everything else goes through, buff or a nerf?

pdebie64b16_ESO

As a Stamblade in PvP i can do 3x cloak in a row before running out of magicka, sometimes its enough to escape but some classes pull me out of stealth/cloak anyway. Do i complain, no. Is cloak op, no. Atleast not on a Stamblade.

Gilvoth

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

As a Stamblade in PvP i can do 3x cloak in a row before running out of magicka, sometimes its enough to escape but some classes pull me out of stealth/cloak anyway. Do i complain, no. Is cloak op, no. Atleast not on a Stamblade.

exactly.
quoted for truth.
no one ever died from me cloaking, and i bet no one ever died from anyone cloaking.

DDuke

ak_pvp wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Hey, anyone who thinks cloak is fine, can I please have infinite reflects back. Its only projectiles, and a limited number too, whereas cloak is any ST not already on before, dots, and makes you invisible. I would even take an absorb/deflect, so no one can argue about the reflect portion.

You can have infinite reflects when my bowblade (whose pretty much every skill gets reflected btw!) has access to abilities that make those infinite reflects disappear until you cast wings again

Dyride wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Zzz... another of these threads.

Anyone thinking cloak is the issue: try playing a high damage build with limited sustain and say that again after you run out of magicka with just 3 consecutive cloaks.

The only thing making cloak sustain more difficult does is it makes the actual fotm meta 3k+ stam regen 1k mag regen builds stack more mag regen while high damage builds that are already more difficult to play become entirely unplayable.

You definitely hit the nail on the head. The builds people are raging about are the seeming "impossible" builds which cloak way more than the NB forum warriors would have you believe is possible.

Regen-build NBs shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do currently. However the only change I think to be fair would be reducing the Major Defile duration to match the Incap stun at 3 secs instead of 6 secs.

I don't think Cloak needs a nerf in stacking cost/reduced regen/no healing. Detect potions allowing single target abilities to hit would be the first and most important change. Right now, I will use waste a Detect potion and still all my abilities MISS MISS MISS as they only have to cloak to force miss, kite from their Shade and use it to escape.

Some of the other counters could be slightly buffed: range of Evil Hunter increased slightly or cost reduced, pulling NB from stealth with AOE should prevent re-cloaking for 1 sec (enough time for one skill cast), Detect potions with more variety of effects but only provide Detect to person using potion.

I'm quite sure Evil/Camo Hunter don't actually increase detection radius currently - they just prevent someone within 6m radius of you from stealthing by locking stealth for 3s should they try to do so while you have the skill activated (only 5s duration on activation).

Overall it's a bad skill mostly used for passives on most builds (ironically it's used by a lot of gank builds to maximize damage from stealth). Should definitely get some buffs.


Radiant Magelight is a different story since it has 12m radius, which is more than stealth detection radius vs most characters.


I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

It's one way to affect the infinite regen builds without ruining the high damage limited sustain builds, as those builds aren't able to spam cloak every 1s (if it keeps getting broken) anyway.

Deal. Wings now reflects/deflects all ranged attacks for 3s. Unless its something like potl/curse, only if its cast before wings though.

You can break it with an AoE, but to match the difficulty of the whackamole vs invis NB, it has to be a targetted one, like endless hail, eruption etc. Something expensive and difficult to hit them with.

Something like... bombard?

Sounds good to me, but you probably wouldn't like it after seeing how that works out in practice...


Also, Piercing Mark would permanently disable your Wings - you know, just to keep things even.

Mark->Cloak
DK skill -> Wings. Which is why I said engulfing flames to disable wings. (Not really any long lasting effects)

I probably would prefer it to wings of today, which are completely useless OW. Since like cloak, the counters are in my favor, and to break it a class would have to run a limited and sacrificial counter like pots. Or have to deal with landing something awkward to land on a slippery target. (Any AOEs on invisible, vs targetted AoEs on visible) wheras on my end it would mitigate a lot and scale better than a defense like block, and have more scope on what/how much is reflected.

But lets flip the argument on its head. Cloak can now totally has a limit on how much, and what type of damage, only single target hits it can cloak against, everything else goes through, buff or a nerf?

That's... pretty much how it works at the moment?

Play NB, attract zerg's attention, get hit by a dozen single target projectiles & see how well cloak works


In any case, I don't think we should be making direct comparisons between two vastly different defensive mechanics.

Gilvoth

cloak is simply a protection and what we do for stealth as a stealth class.
cloak kills no one and is already unreliable.
please dont nerf cloak.

AND

please stop making these threads like this about nerfs.

people are having Loads of fun right now
Listen, if go to cryodiil right now you will see all classes fighting fairly, no class greater then another, they all dying and killing each other at same pace
if you don't believe me then go to cryodiil main campaign where i am at just watch the fights.
you will see that its just about perfect balance in classes.
come join the fun instead of asking for nerfs.

Seraphayel

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.

When built towards it.

Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.

If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).

Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:

1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills

2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less

And after nerfing Cloak you would have nothing against stamina getting as much defense as magicka has? Since magicka gets light attacks buffed it would be only fair for stamina to get the same overdefense, sustain and pressure which magicka has, wouldn't it?

Excuse me?

If we go by that, please give Magicka ONE execute that's not class based. Stamina has access to four execute abilities (DW passive, Steel Tornado, Executioner, Poison Injection), Magicka to zero. Z-E-R-O.

Oh and what about variety when it comes to weapons? Stamina has 3 offensive and 1 defensive weapon. Magicka has 1 offensive and 1 defensive. Okay, granted, most class skills are Magicka based but doesn't change anything when it comes to weapon choices for casters.

Where the hag has Magicka better sustain than Stamina? And better pressure when 2h is most likely the hardest hitting weapon in game?

Toast_STS

I slot radiant magelight on all my builds nowadays, mag or stam, and you should too!

Lingering flare is better but the passives aren't as good. When they change empower I might switch to that on my mag builds.

Sevn

Toast_STS wrote: »

I slot radiant magelight on all my builds nowadays, mag or stam, and you should too!

Lingering flare is better but the passives aren't as good. When they change empower I might switch to that on my mag builds.

They don't want to change their build. Simply as that. If they get cloak nerfed it'll soon be something else.

These players refuse to change up their build to fight one class but that one class sends them running to the forums because a potential notch in their victory belt used cloak to get away from certain death.

TheDoomsdayMonster

IMHO, Cloak simply needs a small, but significant change and balance would be restored: simply halt Resource Regeneration and Healing while Cloaked (exactly like Mist Form)...

Nightblades would still be able to exit a fight as needed, but they couldn't keep resetting a fight until it goes in their favor...


And yes, there are a lot of counters for Nightblades, but as more and more people are starting to realize (and IMHO its the reason you encounter so many of them nowadays), there is a counter for the anti-Nightblade counters...

And that counter-counter is Major Expedition and running; a Nightblade can simply run away until your detect pot runs out, a Nightblade can simply run from your Radiant Magelight...

They can outrun practically any of the so called counters...


No single player can pin a Nightblade down because of Shade...

Its the reason why you see so many people required to kill Nightblades that really know what they are doing; you get them near Deaths Door and they get away with either Shade or Cloak...


Just halt Resource Regeneration and Healing during Cloak...

Sure, they can escape, but atleast they wont be able to keep resetting the fight until they can burst you down with some combo involving Incap...

technohic

I dont really have anything built to counter cloak in my build at the moment. I find the best way to deal with NBs is to actually gank them when they go for a kill. The ones that kill quick and go back to stealth are generally squishy; but there are a couple that just keep going in and out and roll dodging yet still hit hard. Its probably not cloak itself but rather the healing and defense while still able to sustain while doing it.

Ragnaroek93

Seraphayel wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.

When built towards it.

Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.

If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).

Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:

1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills

2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less

And after nerfing Cloak you would have nothing against stamina getting as much defense as magicka has? Since magicka gets light attacks buffed it would be only fair for stamina to get the same overdefense, sustain and pressure which magicka has, wouldn't it?

Excuse me?

If we go by that, please give Magicka ONE execute that's not class based. Stamina has access to four execute abilities (DW passive, Steel Tornado, Executioner, Poison Injection), Magicka to zero. Z-E-R-O.

Oh and what about variety when it comes to weapons? Stamina has 3 offensive and 1 defensive weapon. Magicka has 1 offensive and 1 defensive. Okay, granted, most class skills are Magicka based but doesn't change anything when it comes to weapon choices for casters.

Where the hag has Magicka better sustain than Stamina? And better pressure when 2h is most likely the hardest hitting weapon in game?

Magicka has better pressure because most dots are magicka based and they have Elemental Drain which equals 600 (!) magicka regen. Please just play a stamina class (like stamplar or stamdk) against good magicka opponents for once before starting another crusade against stamina.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

IMHO, Cloak simply needs a small, but significant change and balance would be restored: simply halt Resource Regeneration and Healing while Cloaked (exactly like Mist Form)...

Nightblades would still be able to exit a fight as needed, but they couldn't keep resetting a fight until it goes in their favor...


And yes, there are a lot of counters for Nightblades, but as more and more people are starting to realize (and IMHO its the reason you encounter so many of them nowadays), there is a counter for the anti-Nightblade counters...

And that counter-counter is Major Expedition and running; a Nightblade can simply run away until your detect pot runs out, a Nightblade can simply run from your Radiant Magelight...

They can outrun practically any of the so called counters...


No single player can pin a Nightblade down because of Shade...

Its the reason why you see so many people required to kill Nightblades that really know what they are doing; you get them near Deaths Door and they get away with either Shade or Cloak...


Just halt Resource Regeneration and Healing during Cloak...

Sure, they can escape, but atleast they wont be able to keep resetting the fight until they can burst you down with some combo involving Incap...

In other words: You want to kill the class. How would you think about making a heal over time effect out of Breath of Life? So templars can't blockheal to full health again in seconds...

TheDoomsdayMonster

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.

When built towards it.

Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.

If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).

Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:

1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills

2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less

And after nerfing Cloak you would have nothing against stamina getting as much defense as magicka has? Since magicka gets light attacks buffed it would be only fair for stamina to get the same overdefense, sustain and pressure which magicka has, wouldn't it?

Excuse me?

If we go by that, please give Magicka ONE execute that's not class based. Stamina has access to four execute abilities (DW passive, Steel Tornado, Executioner, Poison Injection), Magicka to zero. Z-E-R-O.

Oh and what about variety when it comes to weapons? Stamina has 3 offensive and 1 defensive weapon. Magicka has 1 offensive and 1 defensive. Okay, granted, most class skills are Magicka based but doesn't change anything when it comes to weapon choices for casters.

Where the hag has Magicka better sustain than Stamina? And better pressure when 2h is most likely the hardest hitting weapon in game?

Magicka has better pressure because most dots are magicka based and they have Elemental Drain which equals 600 (!) magicka regen. Please just play a stamina class (like stamplar or stamdk) against good magicka opponents for once before starting another crusade against stamina.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

IMHO, Cloak simply needs a small, but significant change and balance would be restored: simply halt Resource Regeneration and Healing while Cloaked (exactly like Mist Form)...

Nightblades would still be able to exit a fight as needed, but they couldn't keep resetting a fight until it goes in their favor...


And yes, there are a lot of counters for Nightblades, but as more and more people are starting to realize (and IMHO its the reason you encounter so many of them nowadays), there is a counter for the anti-Nightblade counters...

And that counter-counter is Major Expedition and running; a Nightblade can simply run away until your detect pot runs out, a Nightblade can simply run from your Radiant Magelight...

They can outrun practically any of the so called counters...


No single player can pin a Nightblade down because of Shade...

Its the reason why you see so many people required to kill Nightblades that really know what they are doing; you get them near Deaths Door and they get away with either Shade or Cloak...


Just halt Resource Regeneration and Healing during Cloak...

Sure, they can escape, but atleast they wont be able to keep resetting the fight until they can burst you down with some combo involving Incap...

In other words: You want to kill the class. How would you think about making a heal over time effect out of Breath of Life? So templars can't blockheal to full health again in seconds...

I don't block cast (I run Resto/Dual Wield), so it wouldn't bother me one bit...

Also, I already can kill Nightblades (I have more success against them than any other class), but I plainly see just how powerful they can be in the right hands just as you can...

When properly played, the class is overperforming; are you trying to argue that that isn't true?

ak_pvp

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I see, a lot of NBs commenting here that won't lose their status that's 99% based on broken mechanics and not skill.

If the issue is not Cloak, it is the amount of "good stuff" a NB can have when build towards it. More than every other class/build can. And on top of that Cloak with all it's additional buffs and benefit to reset fights and just start again.

Sure, and I've highlighted the important part of your comment.

When built towards it.

Not every NB builds towards infinite regens & spam oriented gameplay - so again just to reiterate: if there are problems with certain builds, then those builds specifically should be addressed, not the entire class.

If a core concept of the class is nerfed, then that only weakens the infinite regen builds while the other builds are removed from existence entirely (meaning you get even more infinite regen rollerblades when it becomes the only viable way to play the class).

Cloak and all of its benefits IS the core problem. You have two options:

1. Remove the benefits or put them onto other skills

2. Increase cost so that Cloak will be used less and therefore the benefits are used less

And after nerfing Cloak you would have nothing against stamina getting as much defense as magicka has? Since magicka gets light attacks buffed it would be only fair for stamina to get the same overdefense, sustain and pressure which magicka has, wouldn't it?

Excuse me?

If we go by that, please give Magicka ONE execute that's not class based. Stamina has access to four execute abilities (DW passive, Steel Tornado, Executioner, Poison Injection), Magicka to zero. Z-E-R-O.

Oh and what about variety when it comes to weapons? Stamina has 3 offensive and 1 defensive weapon. Magicka has 1 offensive and 1 defensive. Okay, granted, most class skills are Magicka based but doesn't change anything when it comes to weapon choices for casters.

Where the hag has Magicka better sustain than Stamina? And better pressure when 2h is most likely the hardest hitting weapon in game?

Magicka has better pressure because most dots are magicka based and they have Elemental Drain which equals 600 (!) magicka regen. Please just play a stamina class (like stamplar or stamdk) against good magicka opponents for once before starting another crusade against stamina.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

IMHO, Cloak simply needs a small, but significant change and balance would be restored: simply halt Resource Regeneration and Healing while Cloaked (exactly like Mist Form)...

Nightblades would still be able to exit a fight as needed, but they couldn't keep resetting a fight until it goes in their favor...


And yes, there are a lot of counters for Nightblades, but as more and more people are starting to realize (and IMHO its the reason you encounter so many of them nowadays), there is a counter for the anti-Nightblade counters...

And that counter-counter is Major Expedition and running; a Nightblade can simply run away until your detect pot runs out, a Nightblade can simply run from your Radiant Magelight...

They can outrun practically any of the so called counters...


No single player can pin a Nightblade down because of Shade...

Its the reason why you see so many people required to kill Nightblades that really know what they are doing; you get them near Deaths Door and they get away with either Shade or Cloak...


Just halt Resource Regeneration and Healing during Cloak...

Sure, they can escape, but atleast they wont be able to keep resetting the fight until they can burst you down with some combo involving Incap...

In other words: You want to kill the class. How would you think about making a heal over time effect out of Breath of Life? So templars can't blockheal to full health again in seconds...

I don't think anything but cloak needs touching really, NB is bursty, sneaky and mobile. It should just be more squishy via cloak changes, the passives are fine, and the QOL changes, like no target shade, and better assassains, whilst strong, are fair. Also stamina has by far the best pressure. Bleeds>any mag dots. Then add master weapons, and stamina executes, and its easier to finish off on a stamina dot build.

Thogard

The fact that NBs are significantly overpowered at the moment has lead to them being one of the only classes eligible for soloing. I say that not because it’s impossible to 1vX on other classs - it isn’t - but because the ease with which bad players become impactful on the NB has forced all non-NB players casual PvPers into massive zergs for protection. This then ruins the server for the 1vXers and small scalers... it’s hard to fight outnumbered when your skills don’t fire due to lag.

In a situation where there’s a 2s delay on everything you do and break free doesn’t work, nightblade goes from being extremely overpowered to godmode.

If you’re dying on a sNB to anything other than a group or a mNB, you need to play another Stam class so that you can learn how to actually PvP and become a good player. Then go back to the Stam NB and actually play it well. Many Stam NBs are easy to kill because it’s the only class that you can still get kills on without developing any sort of actual playing skill... that doesn’t make it balanced, it just makes most of the players bad.

But now it’s just too much. All these nightblades have got everyone zerging around for protection and it’s ruining the servers and ruining PvP for those of us who like a challenge. Enjoy being relevant while you can - once the nerf comes there won’t be a class that can make up for lack of skill and many of the current NBs will go back to losing their Xv1s instead of winning or stalemating them.

The people saying the NB class is balanced should look and see who else is saying that. You’re not exactly in good company.

Vapirko

Pretty certain we will see soemthing in the full patch notes. I don’t have a problem with cloak per say but it’s just annoying that NBs can reset the fight over and over mostly in a 1v1 situation. But with the healing adjustments coming and I’m guesing some sort of incap nerf, NBs will become more balanced.

makreth

Thogard wrote: »

The fact that NBs are significantly overpowered at the moment has lead to them being one of the only classes eligible for soloing. I say that not because it’s impossible to 1vX on other classs - it isn’t - but because the ease with which bad players become impactful on the NB has forced all non-NB players casual PvPers into massive zergs for protection. This then ruins the server for the 1vXers and small scalers... it’s hard to fight outnumbered when your skills don’t fire due to lag.

In a situation where there’s a 2s delay on everything you do and break free doesn’t work, nightblade goes from being extremely overpowered to godmode.

If you’re dying on a sNB to anything other than a group or a mNB, you need to play another Stam class so that you can learn how to actually PvP and become a good player. Then go back to the Stam NB and actually play it well. Many Stam NBs are easy to kill because it’s the only class that you can still get kills on without developing any sort of actual playing skill... that doesn’t make it balanced, it just makes most of the players bad.

But now it’s just too much. All these nightblades have got everyone zerging around for protection and it’s ruining the servers and ruining PvP for those of us who like a challenge. Enjoy being relevant while you can - once the nerf comes there won’t be a class that can make up for lack of skill and many of the current NBs will go back to losing their Xv1s instead of winning or stalemating them.

The people saying the NB class is balanced should look and see who else is saying that. You’re not exactly in good company.

I don't really think NBs are the ones causing people to zerg...Zerging was always there. It's Cyrodiil. You can't expect fair fights or 1v1 fights. Moreso now with the cap out of the way. Stacking bomb grps vs zergs. What I'm getting and most people admit it is the stealthplay NB provides but it's part of the game.