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Don't you think it's time to do something against Cloak & Stam(blades), ZOS?

  • akray21
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    Cries wrote: »
    Cloak is balanced, L2P. This patch I'm using shadow cloak and next patch I'm still using shadow cloak. If you're playing vs a nightblade that solely relies on cloak to survive then im sorry but you're not playing vs a very good stamblade. Next patch we get 33% of max health over 3 seconds, hehe basically like a magicka vigor. People need to start playing stamblades like stamDK's. Woops that was a secret.

    #Inbeforenightblademaincomments

    I only slot cloak to use prior to engage to get major resistances, to force crit heals, and to get extra damage. Heavy Stamblade doesn't need cloak to be effective.
  • thankyourat
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    cloak in itself isn't really all that great you need a combination of abilities to even make it work. The reason it looks so strong on stamblade is because of the combination of dodge roll being kind of op, with shuffle for snare immunity and bow for major expedition. If cloak was as strong by itself as everyone makes it out to be no one would ever be a stamblade and everyone would be a magblade. Maybe it's the absurd mobility that medium armor has that's making it op.
  • Seraphayel
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    I find it hilarious that (obviously NB players) some think Stamblade is fine with all their tools (defile, cloak, evasion, roll dodge, executes, guaranteed crit, burst, sustain) in PvP. They're not. They're broken because Cloak and all its surroundings are broken. Cloak needs no change, just increasing cost with each successive cast within 5 seconds so that NBs can't abuse it anymore.
    Edited by Seraphayel on April 13, 2018 4:16PM
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  • Koolio
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I find it hilarious that (obviously NB players) some think Stamblade is fine with all their tools (defile, cloak, evasion, roll dodge, executes, guaranteed crit, burst, sustain) in PvP. They're not. They're broken because Cloak and all its surroundings are broken. Cloak needs no change, just increasing cost with each successive cast within 5 seconds so that NBs can't abuse it anymore.

    There are other builds to Nightblade that this would hurt. I have a low damage low healing hybrid NB build just for trolling people with unlimited regen. This build would essentially get destroyed with this change because of one spec of class
  • thankyourat
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I find it hilarious that (obviously NB players) some think Stamblade is fine with all their tools (defile, cloak, evasion, roll dodge, executes, guaranteed crit, burst, sustain) in PvP. They're not. They're broken because Cloak and all its surroundings are broken. Cloak needs no change, just increasing cost with each successive cast within 5 seconds so that NBs can't abuse it anymore.

    That does nothing against Stam blades most of them don't cloak more than two times in a row anyway. They usually cloak 1 or 2 times and then go into sneak behind LoS or something. Also the things you listed aren't exclusive to nightblades all stamina builds have defile, evasion, roll dodge, sustain, execute, and burst. And they all have them in one build stamina in general had gotten really strong this patch. The reason nightblade gets more hate is because ESO is a zerg community and nightblades are harder to zerg down so it makes them mad
    Edited by thankyourat on April 13, 2018 4:33PM
  • Sevn
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    Derra wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Serious question @Seraphayel

    What steps have you taken to adjust your build to deal with them?
    The game offers plenty of counter play to a Nightblade if you're willing to adjust you build or use alternative consumables.

    Most of the time when these threads come up the people complaining are upset their build doesn't work vs a Nightblade but are unwilling to actively work on countering one.

    Additionally are you doing pre-made or PUG, if you're a pre-made are you watching each others backs or sharing out skills to counter them. Note if you have your own Nightblade you can also get revealing mark in there to mess with enemy Nightblades.

    The problem with this approach is: Which other class requires mandatory counterplay measures that are also single purpose and make your build weaker against any target that is not the intended target of the counter?
    The answer is none.

    The problem is however that NB counterskills (outside of mark which is stupid in itself) are not good enough and as a result make you too vulnerable against other targets to warrant a permanent slot.
    The problem is not that NBs are too strong - their intended counters just aren´t used bc they´re useless against everything else and you can´t afford to slot them.


    I agree with much of what you stated and here's the rub, NB's seem to be the most hated and complained about class in PvP, yet when asked why complainers don't use the many counters for cloak, the reply is almost always the same, the counters are useless against other enemies so they don't want to waste a slot or use a single purpose potion for a single enemy.

    Not important enough to use one of the many counters, but extremely important enough to continually run to the forums loudly complaining so NB's have to change their build, all so you can beat a class without having to change YOUR build.

    No. You think I enjoy "wasting" a slot just to deal with NB's? No, it completely changes how I play and is only used occasionally, but I hate letting those slimey *** get away when they fail at ganking me even more. And I too play as a NB, among other classes.

    No, paper should always beat rock, rock should always beat scissors and scissors should always beat paper. Stop using paper builds trying to beat scissors.

    Rant over, just irritating how so many people refuse to use tools given to them to get the tasks done yet so many choose to ask for nerfs so other players have to change up their build, all so they don't have to change up THEIRS.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
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  • Defilted
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    I must suck at Stamblades becasue I get killed all the time.... I wish my stamblade was as awesome as these threads seem to indicate. lol

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  • CyrusArya
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    Nightblade is so stupid op. I tanked/RunvX’ed 12 people for four-five minutes straight on a dual wield spec without rally or a shield last night. There’s no way my stamplar or stam sorc could ever do that. It’s not that any one thing is op, but when you bring together the ability to disengage with cloak and shades and combine that with the colossal damage nb gets, the class clearly performs a tier above other classes.

    Then again I called this when they nerfed sorcs by removing the frag stun many moons ago. NBs been getting nothing but buffs with minimal nerfs for ages, obviously it’s gonna overperform classes that have been continuously gutted.
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  • brandonv516
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    Sure give cloak the streak treatment. Then give cloak snare removal and immunity to CCs for 5s so I at least have a chance to get out of these AoE death clouds.
  • DDuke
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    Zzz... another of these threads.

    Anyone thinking cloak is the issue: try playing a high damage build with limited sustain and say that again after you run out of magicka with just 3 consecutive cloaks.


    The only thing making cloak sustain more difficult does is it makes the actual fotm meta 3k+ stam regen 1k mag regen builds stack more mag regen while high damage builds that are already more difficult to play become entirely unplayable.


    You should probably play a stamblade before trying to analyze them and figure out what's wrong.

    The real problem is stacking ridiculous amounts of regen - it turns the whole stamblade gameplay from high risk high reward to low, almost non-existent risk high reward.

    I mean, when you can no longer run out of resources, can cloak (almost) infinitely and survive almost anything (now that things like Power Lash & Birds are dodgeable) by spamming dodge roll with enough health & impen and you still get to one shot pugs with Incap Relentless... well, it's just way too forgiving. Almost any other build dies when caught out of position.


    That's not to say Nightblade is "op", just that some very particular NB builds are far too easy to play effectively (not more effectively than other classes, mind you).


    So obviously if one was to look at culling down the amount of NBs, it'd have to be by making fotm rollerblades more difficult to play and not by making all nightblades more difficult to play and in the process destroying any remaining build diversity the class has.
  • rimmidimdim
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    Maulkin wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    The problem with this approach is: Which other class requires mandatory counterplay measures that are also single purpose and make your build weaker against any target that is not the intended target of the counter?
    The answer is none.

    I'm camping here till we see @Turelus come up with a response to this. I'm sure he'll come up with some funny statement and completely avoid giving an actual answer :p

    That said I personally think NBs are generally fine as it. If there's anything I would change is probably add some counter-play against Cloak into existing skills of other classes. So you don't have to slot useless skills like Revealing Flare but have some innate ability to deal with invis to a certain level. Might even need to buff Cloak in that case by giving it some benefit that works even if you get pulled out of Cloak, like Snare Purge for example.

    Camo hunter/evil hunter could use a massive buff to the actual use of it too. Something like : ''return %50 of cost when you successfully detect a stealthed enemy with it'', would be a good start, as this ability has insane stamina cost.

    It really needs an increase to the detction radius. That's what it needs. The skill otherwise actually is strong with the weapon dam increase and The crit bonus. But yes an increase to the detection radius I'd be happy with.
  • ak_pvp
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    Hey, anyone who thinks cloak is fine, can I please have infinite reflects back. Its only projectiles, and a limited number too, whereas cloak is any ST not already on before, dots, and makes you invisible. I would even take an absorb/deflect, so no one can argue about the reflect portion.
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  • DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER
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    I agree that rollerblades with infinite sustain are the problem.
  • Priyasekarssk
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Maulkin wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    The problem with this approach is: Which other class requires mandatory counterplay measures that are also single purpose and make your build weaker against any target that is not the intended target of the counter?
    The answer is none.

    I'm camping here till we see @Turelus come up with a response to this. I'm sure he'll come up with some funny statement and completely avoid giving an actual answer :p

    That said I personally think NBs are generally fine as it. If there's anything I would change is probably add some counter-play against Cloak into existing skills of other classes. So you don't have to slot useless skills like Revealing Flare but have some innate ability to deal with invis to a certain level. Might even need to buff Cloak in that case by giving it some benefit that works even if you get pulled out of Cloak, like Snare Purge for example.

    Camo hunter/evil hunter could use a massive buff to the actual use of it too. Something like : ''return %50 of cost when you successfully detect a stealthed enemy with it'', would be a good start, as this ability has insane stamina cost.

    Why should people break their build being forced to use special abilities to counter a single class ?

    You don't need to sacrifise your build for countering damage shields, block or dodge. You can choose to specialize into coutering one of those, but you are not forced to use it for having the kill.

    NB : what about detect poisons guys ? Have u try it ?

    This skill is used more in balance arguments than actual gameplay is my issue.

    I find this skill active really garbage. People use it for the major savagery more than the actual cloak counter thing.

    Completely agree. Mage light , even revealing fare is useless , even detect pods. Almost any counter to NB is useless. NB with cloak can run at full speed. They should provide skill like mark target in mages guild . Anything other than that will be garbage balance. NBs simple spam snipes & poison injection 35 M away with mark target. Unless you are near keep, pray god .
    I dont know why ZOs is so biased with night-blades. I am not sure how meditate going to work with cloak. Another NB buff?
    Edited by Priyasekarssk on April 13, 2018 6:31PM
  • Derra
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    The same could be said about nightblade as well you can kill a nightblade without detect pots as long as he isn't running away.

    That´s one of the point heavily critizised by many people (including me) about nbs.
    As long as they´re not running away - bc the running away will be a 99% escape if you´re somewhat competent.

    Why is this a problem? Because NBs work around strong alphastrikes from sneak and afterwards running away.

    Now you can argue that a nb does not have to run away after failing their initial burst - but that´s not the argument. The nb loosing the fight is entirely within the NBs responsibility here - not the victims (unless the victim runs mark and the nb has no shade).

    And this is exactly where the critique to bad cloak counters (and mark is a bad cloak counter aswell bc it´s a stupid hardcounter that´s not fun) sets in.
    Edited by Derra on April 13, 2018 6:45PM
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  • Dyride
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Zzz... another of these threads.

    Anyone thinking cloak is the issue: try playing a high damage build with limited sustain and say that again after you run out of magicka with just 3 consecutive cloaks.

    The only thing making cloak sustain more difficult does is it makes the actual fotm meta 3k+ stam regen 1k mag regen builds stack more mag regen while high damage builds that are already more difficult to play become entirely unplayable.

    You definitely hit the nail on the head. The builds people are raging about are the seeming "impossible" builds which cloak way more than the NB forum warriors would have you believe is possible.

    Regen-build NBs shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do currently. However the only change I think to be fair would be reducing the Major Defile duration to match the Incap stun at 3 secs instead of 6 secs.

    I don't think Cloak needs a nerf in stacking cost/reduced regen/no healing. Detect potions allowing single target abilities to hit would be the first and most important change. Right now, I will use waste a Detect potion and still all my abilities MISS MISS MISS as they only have to cloak to force miss, kite from their Shade and use it to escape.

    Some of the other counters could be slightly buffed: range of Evil Hunter increased slightly or cost reduced, pulling NB from stealth with AOE should prevent re-cloaking for 1 sec (enough time for one skill cast), Detect potions with more variety of effects but only provide Detect to person using potion.
    I will say though 1v1 there is no way to kill a nightblade who doesn't want to fight i could potentially run away from every 1v1 I didn't think I could win. I think this is where some people consider cloak broken. I don't think running away is broken because you didn't kill anyone. If anything it's just annoying to have a nightblade know they are about to lose and just run away. 1v1

    Where were you when they nerfed Streak into the ground with the self-root, no momentum, and stacking cost?

    The difference even now for a sorc is they have to create a lot of distance (burn lots of magicka) to consider it an "escape", [snip]

    [Edited for inappropriate content]

    Edited by ZOS_Mika on April 16, 2018 1:11PM
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    1. Derra
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      Dyride wrote: »
      I will say though 1v1 there is no way to kill a nightblade who doesn't want to fight i could potentially run away from every 1v1 I didn't think I could win. I think this is where some people consider cloak broken. I don't think running away is broken because you didn't kill anyone. If anything it's just annoying to have a nightblade know they are about to lose and just run away. 1v1

      Where were you when they nerfed Streak into the ground with the self-root, no momentum, and stacking cost?

      I think this is important:
      It seems to be clearly not in the developers intended design to have a near 100% escape from combat situations in pvp judging from past changes to sorcerers bolt escape.

      The skill was never as "problematic" as cloak was because it always came with the disadvantage that you knew what the sorc was doing bc you could track/see them. Yet it got nerfed heavily because running away was indeed deemed problematic in that circumstance.

      Now there are people that are going to say - unnerf bolt and other that say nerf cloak.
      I have to say personally i agree with zos stance on bolt escape and would wish to take the same route for cloak. It´s too potent of a trolling tool (as was bolt escape) to remain untouched.

      I´d just adress it by buffing counters - or alternatively by creating a mechanic that does not allow for harassment gameplay with extensive cloaking by creating a dmg debuff out of cloak.
      Edited by Derra on April 13, 2018 6:58PM
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    2. Thogard
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      Here’s what I’d like to see:
      Dodge rolling blocks you from using vanish for 3s.

      This will force NBs to be vulnerable for 2 GCDs before they can recloak.

      Will not affect mNBs nearly as much.
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    3. DDuke
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      ak_pvp wrote: »
      Hey, anyone who thinks cloak is fine, can I please have infinite reflects back. Its only projectiles, and a limited number too, whereas cloak is any ST not already on before, dots, and makes you invisible. I would even take an absorb/deflect, so no one can argue about the reflect portion.

      You can have infinite reflects when my bowblade (whose pretty much every skill gets reflected btw!) has access to abilities that make those infinite reflects disappear until you cast wings again ;)
      Dyride wrote: »
      DDuke wrote: »
      Zzz... another of these threads.

      Anyone thinking cloak is the issue: try playing a high damage build with limited sustain and say that again after you run out of magicka with just 3 consecutive cloaks.

      The only thing making cloak sustain more difficult does is it makes the actual fotm meta 3k+ stam regen 1k mag regen builds stack more mag regen while high damage builds that are already more difficult to play become entirely unplayable.

      You definitely hit the nail on the head. The builds people are raging about are the seeming "impossible" builds which cloak way more than the NB forum warriors would have you believe is possible.

      Regen-build NBs shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do currently. However the only change I think to be fair would be reducing the Major Defile duration to match the Incap stun at 3 secs instead of 6 secs.

      I don't think Cloak needs a nerf in stacking cost/reduced regen/no healing. Detect potions allowing single target abilities to hit would be the first and most important change. Right now, I will use waste a Detect potion and still all my abilities MISS MISS MISS as they only have to cloak to force miss, kite from their Shade and use it to escape.

      Some of the other counters could be slightly buffed: range of Evil Hunter increased slightly or cost reduced, pulling NB from stealth with AOE should prevent re-cloaking for 1 sec (enough time for one skill cast), Detect potions with more variety of effects but only provide Detect to person using potion.

      I'm quite sure Evil/Camo Hunter don't actually increase detection radius currently - they just prevent someone within 6m radius of you from stealthing by locking stealth for 3s should they try to do so while you have the skill activated (only 5s duration on activation).

      Overall it's a bad skill mostly used for passives on most builds (ironically it's used by a lot of gank builds to maximize damage from stealth). Should definitely get some buffs.


      Radiant Magelight is a different story since it has 12m radius, which is more than stealth detection radius vs most characters.


      I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

      It's one way to affect the infinite regen builds without ruining the high damage limited sustain builds, as those builds aren't able to spam cloak every 1s (if it keeps getting broken) anyway.
      Edited by DDuke on April 13, 2018 7:06PM
    4. Joy_Division
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      Nope. I don't think ZoS needs to do anything about Cloak or Stamblades.

      What ZOS needs to do is stop nerfing my class so I have decent and capable tools to use against Cloak and Stamblades.
    5. DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER
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      I wouldnt mind if cloak gets the streak treatment. (magblade main here)
      Edited by DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER on April 13, 2018 7:11PM
    6. Thogard
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      Nope. I don't think ZoS needs to do anything about Cloak or Stamblades.

      What ZOS needs to do is stop nerfing my class so I have decent and capable tools to use against Cloak and Stamblades.

      If you expect to hit a cloaking rollerblade with your jabs in the current server infrastructure, I got some bad news for you...
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    7. usmcjdking
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      The dedicated cloak/sneak counters need to be far, far more reliable. They are impactful but lack reliability.

      Evil hunter has a base cost of 4.6k stamina? Why? I could justify that with like a 12m radius but it's a 6m radius. Skill is too expensive and the range on it is too low. Magelight is too expensive.

      Way of Air and Sentry are a pile of doodoo vs. Cat and Bosmer. Straight up doesn't work.

      Since the forced dodge window is unaffected by ANYTHING, detect pots are exceptionally weak.
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    8. DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER
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      The problem with detect pots is that they can just kite you out till it rans out..the mobility on a stamblade is incredible.

      shuffle, cloak, roll dodge, shadow image - imo the best mobility in the whole game. you can kite a zerg with it easily if you know how to play a rollerblade (even if marked), thats crazy
    9. CavalryPK
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      I think they gonna talk about pvp balance on the april 13 eso live. in couple of hours maybe. if you guys feel so strong about stamblades. ask them to comment during the show.

      Amen
      Edited by CavalryPK on April 13, 2018 7:28PM
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    10. Priyasekarssk
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      Nope. I don't think ZoS needs to do anything about Cloak or Stamblades.

      What ZOS needs to do is stop nerfing my class so I have decent and capable tools to use against Cloak and Stamblades.

      Give mark target to all classes or nerf cloak. Mage light garbase, detection pods another garbage. Expert hunter complete garbage. Almost all NB counters are garbage.

      There is no other way to balance PVP. Lets all be NBs in cyrodil with 2 H bow build. NB requires same NB treatment. Because they dont know how to play other classes.
      Edited by Priyasekarssk on April 13, 2018 7:47PM
    11. Sevn
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      I realize this is the pvp sector, but it popped up in my recent discussions so I simply wanted to say this, cloak is used outside of PvP people. There are two pve dlcs built with sleath in mind that would be greatly affected by stacking the cost cloak.

      Instead of asking for nerfs why not ask for buffs to the many many many counters for cloak? Longer duration of pots, wider radius, etc. No need to nerf another class just because you can't stand losing to them using whatever build you refuse to change up to deal with them.
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    12. thankyourat
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      Derra wrote: »

      The same could be said about nightblade as well you can kill a nightblade without detect pots as long as he isn't running away.

      That´s one of the point heavily critizised by many people (including me) about nbs.
      As long as they´re not running away - bc the running away will be a 99% escape if you´re somewhat competent.

      Why is this a problem? Because NBs work around strong alphastrikes from sneak and afterwards running away.

      Now you can argue that a nb does not have to run away after failing their initial burst - but that´s not the argument. The nb loosing the fight is entirely within the NBs responsibility here - not the victims (unless the victim runs mark and the nb has no shade).

      And this is exactly where the critique to bad cloak counters (and mark is a bad cloak counter aswell bc it´s a stupid hardcounter that´s not fun) sets in.

      But my argument is that 1v1 the person who turtles will never die on my magblade I can spam Cloak and on my sorc I can spam shields either way I stack regen really high on both to where if I just wanted to be a troll no one would ever kill me 1v1. I'm pretty sure if I had a magplar or warden I could do the same thing and just stall out 1v1 fights. If anything my magsorc is more survivable than my magblade open world even with Cloak once I get the 1vX I want.

      The only benefit to running away over stalling out a fight another way is if you run away you prevent yourself from getting zerged down where the other classes are stationary for the most part. Also there is a huge negative to cloak and this is why I rarely use it 1v1, you can't be offensive and defensive at the same time this is why I prefer my damage shield over Cloak. When you Cloak you basically stop the fight. it's very good against less experienced players but players of my same skill level will use that time to regroup so it's basically starting the fight over from scratch. Meaning that you can't kill top level players if you are cloaking too much.

      Even if you add a stacking cost that wouldn't really hurt stamblades since most don't constantly keep cloaking anyway they usually Cloak a couple times and then go into sneak. This really only hurts magblades and will most likely be dropped by every good magblade because sometimes you already have to cloak 3 or 4 times to even move a few meters because of all the snares. There is no way to change Cloak without hurting magblade open world and the class already struggles open world.
    13. brandonv516
      brandonv516
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      DDuke wrote: »
      I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

      That's fine. Just as long as when that 1-2 seconds is done, I can cast it and remove snares and get 5s of immunity so I can get out of the AoEs that come with snares.

      Btw, steel tornado and hurricane do just fine in preventing me from cloaking already.
      Edited by brandonv516 on April 13, 2018 8:37PM
    14. DDuke
      DDuke
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      DDuke wrote: »
      I also definitely agree about AoEs - they should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds.

      That's fine. Just as long as when that 1-2 seconds is done, I can cast it and remove snares and get 5s of immunity so I can get out of the AoEs that come with snares.

      Got Shuffle for that :P

      ...still, I feel like clarifying my statement: AoEs should prevent stealthing for 1-2 seconds if they reveal you from cloak.

      Not just getting hit by an AoE when fighting someone outside stealth, that'd be bonkers :p
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