Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!

DDuke · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Deci - you´re just being uncreative. When i encounter someone who uses this addon i intentionally hardcast frags (even more than i normally do). It´s part of my sorc playstyle. I do hardcast frags like a pleb.
When someone dodges on cast animation i´ll cancel and do it again.

Yeah, you try that against my melee stamblade - see what happens.

My build is insanely bad vs stamblade. Like probably the only thing a sorc wants vs stamblades that i have is mines. Which is why i absolutely sit in mines and play for a draw against NBs.

I can´t touch a good one - but that´s a choice i made about my build.

Minno · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

Well I bring up design intents because it's much easier to balance the game according to that framework. It's akin to business plans, building plans, etc. You need something to judge against, then update it as things change or new problems exist.

For example, we all know the game is intended for both casual players and those that are used to hardcore MMOs. When the group DPS meter was banned, it was because it was being used to see how well your team was doing but was being used to kick players out of some content. While trials teams loved this add-on; not everyone was in a fun team for it to be used properly. Once that add-on reached other more randomized game modes, it was being used to kick players which violates the design intent for the game to be a bit place for both casual gamers and veterans to interact.

What players want doesn't always mean it's great for the game. But also the opposite can happen. Does Zoe feel like Miat's brings certain features to the table to justify keeping it? Maybe, but as far as I know, they haven't actually given their final ruling.

Derra · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

What players want doesn't always mean it's great for the game. But also the opposite can happen. Does Zoe feel like Miat's brings certain features to the table to justify keeping it? Maybe, but as far as I know, they haven't actually given their final ruling.

If we´re being honest - keeping a feature like this in the game for so long is basically equivalent to giving it a ruling - until they make a 180 on their current stance.

The only options have at this point is:
a) ignore further
b) remove the functionality

Saying that the functionality is ok would be the equivalent to forumseppuku.

Jade1986 · October 2017

Koensol wrote: »

show previous quotes

Feanor wrote: »

*Bla bla bla*

I'm just tired about that stealth BS. It has cowardice written all over it.

Aah there we have it. The undeniable bias and personal frustration that lies at the source of your whole argument.

There was a lot of beating around the bush to get there, but it was there the whole time, lol. And it was so obvious.

SodanTok · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

What players want doesn't always mean it's great for the game. But also the opposite can happen. Does Zoe feel like Miat's brings certain features to the table to justify keeping it? Maybe, but as far as I know, they haven't actually given their final ruling.

If we´re being honest - keeping a feature like this in the game for so long is basically equivalent to giving it a ruling - until they make a 180 on their current stance.

The only options have at this point is:
a) ignore further
b) remove the functionality

Saying that the functionality is ok would be the equivalent to forumseppuku.

But do they act like they gave it ruling? One thing is not responding to avoid backslash another is acting like it does not exist. Nerfing crystal frag to promote crystal blast is not act of someone that ever played PVP against this addon with cast time ability.

Jade1986 · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lol. Again with the bs.

You think you can reliably dodge a close range Dark Flare combo'd with a javelin? Think again.

Same with close range Frags & Heavy Attacks, you can't reliably dodge any of those when combo'd with quick CC.

As it bloody well should be.

Can you dodge the snipe when you combo it with a cc? Nah. Well so everything is good

Yeah you can, because you can see the bloody cast timer for the Snipe & dodge roll during it to avoid both Snipe & the combo CC.

What are you not getting? Is it truly that complicated?

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

The irony...

It´s only ironic when you put it out of context. I try to refrain using any form of skill/build (harness, soulassault, dark deal, line of sight, heavyarmor + 1h shield etc pp.) that can make a fight unenjoyable by design of that skill or mechanic - for various reasons.

Getting instarekt from sneak can´t be enjoyable going by that principle because when you´re dead instantly there is no fight happening.

Yet you're fine with using a 3rd party plugin that not only makes a fight unenjoyable to the person using cast time abilities, but unwinnable as well.

Also, not everyone adheres to your "noble" code - painfully evident to anyone using medium armor (yet you don't see people demanding those skills & playstyles be made entirely useless or "removed" via an addon).

well you can do the same for darkflare then and frags most of the time is the cc.
I don´t get where you´re coming from.

It only makes the fight unenjoyable for them when they´re coming from a position where their intention was to make it unenjoyable for me. That´s the whole point. Now you´re getting it.
The addon has only metagame implications when fighting someone who is aware of you.

The funniest part is i don´t even use the casttimer of the addon i have it hidden under my chat window. I just use the audio cue that playes when the projectile fires

I find it absolutely hilarious that you think you are advocating in favor of everyone here. You are literally saying, in a very jumbled and desperate way, that " screw stealth players because I am incapable of countering them, and screw ranged players because I cant counter them without being spoon fed" Yet somehow the people against this add on who realize there ARE counters to it are the people that make your gameplay ( the me me me attitude at its finest ) unenjoyable. There is literally no reason to even debate with you because clearly only your gameplay matters, and everyone else be damned.

Ok tell me how you counter permanent sneak in regards to that making it impossible to realisticly assess a situation?

Also i am playing ranged. I´m saying from experience and fighting other players that use this addon that it is not an issue to fight against unless fighting someone not aware of you.

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

Minno · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

What players want doesn't always mean it's great for the game. But also the opposite can happen. Does Zoe feel like Miat's brings certain features to the table to justify keeping it? Maybe, but as far as I know, they haven't actually given their final ruling.

If we´re being honest - keeping a feature like this in the game for so long is basically equivalent to giving it a ruling - until they make a 180 on their current stance.

The only options have at this point is:
a) ignore further
b) remove the functionality

Saying that the functionality is ok would be the equivalent to forumseppuku.

I don't think so. Look at crit charge; it still let's you climb up rocks at your target despite them banning players for using this ability to climb keeps and such.

It's functionality is largely the same, but the ruling they gave differs.

I think it's because they don't have the time to make QA checks like this for PvP when they are expected to roll out working pve content that people pay money for.

Another reason for leaving something in game for so long is that its on low priority. Miat's add-on isn't completely locking out all of cyro, and it only impacts PC gamers which are probably out numbered by console players at this point. Would you spend 50000 a year for a coder to fix and review Miat's addon or other potentially game breaking addon's for one segment of the market while their job is entirely paid for by crown crates, crown store items and new dlc/stories?

I wouldn't.

Jade1986 · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

I find it sad that ZoS is not responding to this at all. Honestly I find melee boring as all hell, and the fact that I am shoe horned into it now, is ridiculous. And if I do play my archer, I have to jump through hoops to land a basic attack, its stupid.

Minno · October 2017

laced wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

I find it sad that ZoS is not responding to this at all. Honestly I find melee boring as all hell, and the fact that I am shoe horned into it now, is ridiculous. And if I do play my archer, I have to jump through hoops to land a basic attack, its stupid.

It's probably why they made so many undodgable abilities too. To punish miat

Jade1986 · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

What players want doesn't always mean it's great for the game. But also the opposite can happen. Does Zoe feel like Miat's brings certain features to the table to justify keeping it? Maybe, but as far as I know, they haven't actually given their final ruling.

If we´re being honest - keeping a feature like this in the game for so long is basically equivalent to giving it a ruling - until they make a 180 on their current stance.

The only options have at this point is:
a) ignore further
b) remove the functionality

Saying that the functionality is ok would be the equivalent to forumseppuku.

Silence does not mean its a ruling. For all we know they are working on it, and are just having a hell of a time fixing it. Considering they cant even fix a loading screen, that isnt too far fetched.

Derra · October 2017

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5/10/15 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to coordianted attack players coming along.

Jade1986 · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

I find it sad that ZoS is not responding to this at all. Honestly I find melee boring as all hell, and the fact that I am shoe horned into it now, is ridiculous. And if I do play my archer, I have to jump through hoops to land a basic attack, its stupid.

It's probably why they made so many undodgable abilities too. To punish miat

I was thinking the same thing actually, which is why I will bird spam to my hearts content on people I notice are using that trash.

Jade1986 · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to attack players coming along.

Swtor has the same thing, perma stealth. AND YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO COUNTER ANYTHING FROM FIVE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS! Just wow.....The entitled me mentality here is so strong it is downright gross....

SodanTok · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

I find it sad that ZoS is not responding to this at all. Honestly I find melee boring as all hell, and the fact that I am shoe horned into it now, is ridiculous. And if I do play my archer, I have to jump through hoops to land a basic attack, its stupid.

It's probably why they made so many undodgable abilities too. To punish miat

Tin Foil Hat on, but I did bought and started maining warden and at least 60% of the reasoning was I want to play ranged stamina build unaffected by Miat.

Instead of fixing stuff, they made me pay to play again

Derra · October 2017

laced wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to attack players coming along.

Swtor has the same thing, perma stealth. AND YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO COUNTER ANYTHING FROM FIVE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS! Just wow.....The entitled me mentality here is so strong it is downright gross....

Swtor has classes that can permastealth. Not every build and every class that can permastealth. If only medium armor users or only nbs could permastealth i wouldn´t give jack shite about it.

That´s the point. I don´t want to counter anything. I want to see them so i can avoid them.

Jade1986 · October 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

laced wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

I find it sad that ZoS is not responding to this at all. Honestly I find melee boring as all hell, and the fact that I am shoe horned into it now, is ridiculous. And if I do play my archer, I have to jump through hoops to land a basic attack, its stupid.

It's probably why they made so many undodgable abilities too. To punish miat

Tin Foil Hat on, but I did bought and started maining warden and at least 60% of the reasoning was I want to play ranged stamina build unaffected by Miat.

Instead of fixing stuff, they made me pay to play again

Sadly even the class we paid for is also broken xD

Minno · October 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

laced wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

I find it sad that ZoS is not responding to this at all. Honestly I find melee boring as all hell, and the fact that I am shoe horned into it now, is ridiculous. And if I do play my archer, I have to jump through hoops to land a basic attack, its stupid.

It's probably why they made so many undodgable abilities too. To punish miat

Tin Foil Hat on, but I did bought and started maining warden and at least 60% of the reasoning was I want to play ranged stamina build unaffected by Miat.

Instead of fixing stuff, they made me pay to play again

Lol yea I was making a half-joke. By warden having undodgable bird is probably the reason they didn't roll with a cast time dps ability lol.

Jade1986 · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to attack players coming along.

Swtor has the same thing, perma stealth. AND YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO COUNTER ANYTHING FROM FIVE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS! Just wow.....The entitled me mentality here is so strong it is downright gross....

Swtor has classes that can permastealth. Not every build and every class that can permastealth.

That´s the point. I don´t want to counter anything to counter them. I want to see them so i can avoid them.

Not every class can perma stealth in this either. In swtor stealth classes are incredibly strong 1v1, and that is HOW they are SUPPOSED to be, but get them in group play, and they are weak, which is also the case here. Once they attack, unless they are a nightblade, they cannot re-stealth for a time, and if they do, that is a problem with your reflexes.

So you literally just admitted you want to cheat, dont want to actually counter them, and want god mode against stealthers. Good, glad I got that out of you.

Move along people, nothing to see here. Seriously, you should stick to pve, or single player games.

DDuke · October 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

laced wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

The vast majority of players want it gone: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 337 votes we can get to around 5,3% margin of error, meaning anything between 75-85% of playerbase.

It doesn't matter if they've deemed it "fine", it's unwise to act against their player base. Which is exactly why I'm going to keep posting on this thread & any other until this is addressed or Ashes of Creation goes into Alpha 1 so I can move on to "greener pastures"

This thread alone is approaching 100 Agrees.

I find it sad that ZoS is not responding to this at all. Honestly I find melee boring as all hell, and the fact that I am shoe horned into it now, is ridiculous. And if I do play my archer, I have to jump through hoops to land a basic attack, its stupid.

It's probably why they made so many undodgable abilities too. To punish miat

Tin Foil Hat on, but I did bought and started maining warden and at least 60% of the reasoning was I want to play ranged stamina build unaffected by Miat.

Instead of fixing stuff, they made me pay to play again

Steals The Hat from @SodanTok , but only to avoid getting banned for conspiracy theories.

I bet they're not removing these API functions in order to force PC players into buying console copies as well.

Derra · October 2017

laced wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to attack players coming along.

Swtor has the same thing, perma stealth. AND YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO COUNTER ANYTHING FROM FIVE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS! Just wow.....The entitled me mentality here is so strong it is downright gross....

Swtor has classes that can permastealth. Not every build and every class that can permastealth.

That´s the point. I don´t want to counter anything to counter them. I want to see them so i can avoid them.

Not every class can perma stealth in this either.

I´m sorry but shall i make a video for you where i showcase how i can stealth for 2 hours straight on my sorc, DK, templar the first in light and the latter two in heavy armor with sword and board?

There is no timer to sneak. That literally means you can permanently stay invisible on any class or build.

Minno · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5/10/15 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to coordianted attack players coming along.

Passive defense buffs, block, and using abilities to drag then out of stealth.

Armor+ CP is an easy way to make it harder for them to snag off a quick shot. And every class had access to an ability that causes then to pop out of stealth once found:
- Templars have purfying light and unstable core. Both with burst letting you to continually tag them
- sorcs curse operates on the same manner; pop it defensively wait, then start snag then again. Sorcs can also AOE immobilze.
- dks can block+ aoe immobilze
- NB can mark and keep targets out of stealth.
- wardens. Damn if they even have one, but you gotta love those undodgable birds they can spam at range lol. Jokes aside, they do have strong tank abilities.

Then there's the usual crap like pots, etc. The game right now isn't as bad as launch when everyone was ganking left and right.

Derra · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5/10/15 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to coordianted attack players coming along.

Passive defense buffs, block, and using abilities to drag then out of stealth.

Armor+ CP is an easy way to make it harder for them to snag off a quick shot. And every class had access to an ability that causes then to pop out of stealth once found:
- Templars have purfying light and unstable core. Both with burst letting you to continually tag them
- sorcs curse operates on the same manner; pop it defensively wait, then start snag then again. Sorcs can also AOE immobilze.
- dks can block+ aoe immobilze
- NB can mark and keep targets out of stealth.
- wardens. Damn if they even have one, but you gotta love those undodgable birds they can spam at range lol. Jokes aside, they do have strong tank abilities.

Then there's the usual crap like pots, etc. The game right now isn't as bad as launch when everyone was ganking left and right.

That´s not what i mean though. I don´t want to keep them out. I want to avoid running into them without trial and error.

How can i avoid running into 5/10/15 people with healers tanks and whatever you want to have invisible that camp on a resource/between two keeps in sneak because that´s what they enjoy doing.
That´s my issue with this games stealth system.

The answer is: You can´t.

But when you´re only running around with 300 people in cyrodiil this obviously is a nonissue.

Derra · October 2017

Hey @DDuke want to give some insight to your miathateallies what you think about the ability of tankplars or magDKs in heavy with sword and board to be permanently in sneak with no drawback?

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

Hey @DDuke want to give some insight to your miathateallies what you think about the ability of tankplars or magDKs in heavy with sword and board to be permanently in sneak with no drawback?

Well, my thoughts on stealth are in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190500/visual-cues-for-stealthed-enemies

My position on it hasn't changed much over the years, despite the constant nerfs to stealth.

As for specifically magplars & magicka DKs in heavy... well, I guess they could make medium armor better by increasing the detection area in general & then buffing up the Improved Sneak passive to maintain status quo for medium.

I'm quite indifferent in general though, you don't come across those groups in sneak that often, and if I do I come back in sneak myself & with det pots on the ready, ready to show them they messed with the wrong stamblade

Minno · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5/10/15 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to coordianted attack players coming along.

Passive defense buffs, block, and using abilities to drag then out of stealth.

Armor+ CP is an easy way to make it harder for them to snag off a quick shot. And every class had access to an ability that causes then to pop out of stealth once found:
- Templars have purfying light and unstable core. Both with burst letting you to continually tag them
- sorcs curse operates on the same manner; pop it defensively wait, then start snag then again. Sorcs can also AOE immobilze.
- dks can block+ aoe immobilze
- NB can mark and keep targets out of stealth.
- wardens. Damn if they even have one, but you gotta love those undodgable birds they can spam at range lol. Jokes aside, they do have strong tank abilities.

Then there's the usual crap like pots, etc. The game right now isn't as bad as launch when everyone was ganking left and right.

That´s not what i mean though.

How can i avoid running into 5/10/15 people with healers tanks and whatever you want to have invisible that camp on a resource/between two keeps in sneak because that´s what they enjoy doing.
That´s my issue with this games stealth system.

The answer is: You can´t.

But when you´re only running around with 300 people in cyrodiil this obviously is a nonissue.

War... War never changes. I remember once reading that Germany complained that Americans in WWI were using shotguns in trenches and that wasn't fair lol. Guess those that had died to snipers/silent commando raids felt the same way.

I mean it's large scale combat with stealh mechanics. To expect no one to be at a resource, would be pve content. At that point, why bother pvping? They will sit there till you give them a reason to not sit there. This isn't "Rambo", it's three armies battering each other on a field of Battle.

And if I'm being honest, gankers are the counter to large zergs; their ability to engage secretly always then to get closer and tackle outnumbered teams. Having cast time abilities + stealth numbers counted via this addon = removal of gankers. Removal of gankers = increased zergs without consequence because sneak teams cant stifle reinforcements that aren't being careful.

Derra · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

And if I'm being honest, gankers are the counter to large zergs; their ability to engage secretly always then to get closer and tackle outnumbered teams. Having cast time abilities + stealth numbers counted via this addon = removal of gankers. Removal of gankers = increased zergs without consequence because sneak teams can also stifle reinforcements that aren't being careful.

I think that is a misconception.

That you can´t see enemies is one of the top reasons for people to join the zerg (if they don´t want to stealth/gank themselves).

If the only encounter you´ll ever get (because realisticly from my experience people only attack you from invisibility when they´re sure they´re winning - meaning they outnumber you) is multiple people attacking you from invisibility.

What is the response to that? Be invsible yourself or bring more people yourself. Thus a ganker or a zerger is born.
Gankers are not the counters to zerging (open field). They´re the reason for it.

Rohamad_Ali · October 2017

What I find amazing is the complete lack of input from the people in charge . Can we get one person to say either everything's fine , we have no plans on changing the API or this addon any further . Or .. We are investigating and may or may not make further changes . Or , oh hell no , it's not supposed to allow that . @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , Miss Jessica , I know it's not your job but could you dig into some information for Us ? Maybe drop a note on a Devs desk ? We've had so many threads and no further info all year . It would be a great way to break up the speculation and players going back and forth over with each other in frustration . A little communication with Us would go a long way .

Minno · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

And if I'm being honest, gankers are the counter to large zergs; their ability to engage secretly always then to get closer and tackle outnumbered teams. Having cast time abilities + stealth numbers counted via this addon = removal of gankers. Removal of gankers = increased zergs without consequence because sneak teams can also stifle reinforcements that aren't being careful.

I think that is a misconception.

The reason that you can´t see enemies is one of the top reasons for people tojoin the zerg (if they don´t want to stealth/gank themselves).

If the only encounter you´ll ever get (because realisticly from my experience people only attack you from invisibility when they´re sure they´re winning - meaning they outnumber you) is multiple people attacking you from invisibility.

What is the counter to that? Be invsible yourself or bring more people yourself. Thus a ganker or a zerger is born.
Gankers are not the counters to zerging. They´re the reason for it.

People Zerg because their build isn't tanky enough or they are trying to play with friends. Or a group they are fighting has too much communication that they require more numbers. I find those situations to be more often than those that Zerg because a few nightblades crushed them in stealth lol.

People also Zerg because they are traveling to the nearest objective. They are not thinking "hey maybe I should I go somewhere else and wait for 6 hours because Derra thinks zergs suck". No, some of us don't have more than 2 hours to play every few days, and we are going to the objective that's closest. I'm not the only one that thinks this way, hence why you have fronts of players looking for fights.

So then, in addition to the above, is an add-on that counts stealth and shows a cast time ability being cast not also unfairly impacting those of us that don't stealth? What if I wanted to use dark flare for my beginning burst rotation? Oh shoot my target has Miat's so they know my burst rotation because it showing on his damn screen.

Or maybe people Zerg because their cast time abilities don't work anymore. " Hey my attack can't hit, I need help!".

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

And if I'm being honest, gankers are the counter to large zergs; their ability to engage secretly always then to get closer and tackle outnumbered teams. Having cast time abilities + stealth numbers counted via this addon = removal of gankers. Removal of gankers = increased zergs without consequence because sneak teams can also stifle reinforcements that aren't being careful.

I think that is a misconception.

That you can´t see enemies is one of the top reasons for people to join the zerg (if they don´t want to stealth/gank themselves).

If the only encounter you´ll ever get (because realisticly from my experience people only attack you from invisibility when they´re sure they´re winning - meaning they outnumber you) is multiple people attacking you from invisibility.

What is the response to that? Be invsible yourself or bring more people yourself. Thus a ganker or a zerger is born.
Gankers are not the counters to zerging (open field). They´re the reason for it.

As someone who plays "gank builds": zergs are actually the best targets for a ganker so I agree with @Minno .

More people doesn't really help you survive things like Heavy Attack+SA->Incap(Selene) and zergs usually mean sieges. Sieges=many people who react slowly & die.

Granted, it's not as easy to gank people as it was back in the days, but zerglings are still good targets.

Actually, if bow was more viable again you'd see those zerglings drop left & right while on their sieges.

I hate to self advertise, but this is how you deal with multiple would-be gankers (when they get the opener): https://youtu.be/LnAmR9dawa4?t=32s

It's easy on a "squishy" medium stamblade, it should be even easier on a sorc.