ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%
[*] Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)
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As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

I appreciate the responses to the two abilities most of interest to PVE dps. Path in particular is the obvious choice for returning NB's to endgame DPS viability as AOE DOT damage is basically how trials are being done with the boss typically taking primary damage all the time and adds being cleaved down with AOE DOT's. It will be interesting to test this boost to see the numbers. I expect that I would be totally satisfied with the dps / second result if it also corresponded with a duration change to either 8 or 16 seconds. I think it is something like 12 seconds now which does not make for a good rotation when your other abilities are 8 seconds for cripple, 8 seconds for wall, and relentless which you may choose the timing of so you obviously go with 8 seconds as well. If it was 16 seconds it would be an obvious choice for back bar with the AOE and execute. At 8 seconds it would probably go front with the other 8 second skills and replace relentless at that is basically a redundant buff in a good raid anyway. At 12, the reapplication takes place at a different time during rotations and so often will be mis-timed and will take some important focus off paying attention to what is going on. Having coinciding timings on DOT's is a huge advantage for the players raid awareness. It frees up a lot of headspace.

As for Grim Focus, I should also mention that the weave timing for the reapplication is a little slower than most weave timings and this also throws a lot of folks off causing the loss of their weapon attack frequently. Ive been doing it for a long time and I still miss one every once in a while. Though the double cast and strange timing is somewhat of a mess to manage though, I must say, it is much easier to deal with than off timed DOT's and the fact you can choose the timing of it as pertains to the firing and reapplication (I agree with folks that it should auto-reapply) is hugely useful and rather unique.

Thanks for the changes.

ManDraKE wrote: »

The cost increase of Incap is reasonable, it was an obvious after DBoS got his cost increase, you won't get an argument from me. BUT PLEASE we need cloak to work properly.

Yea fix cloak

SanSan wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:

• Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.
• Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%
• Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Where is the thumbs down button. This is just terrible what you guys are doing. Nb is such a fun class you're ruining it for everyone.

well said

VigilantLance wrote: »

I can't believe the saltiness over here. This is absurd! Incapacitating strikes was too op to begin with for pvp. It's still needs an adjustment to be honest. For what it does, it needs to cost 100 ultimate at the very least.

Magblade is still a strong class. It survives far better than nearly every other class in pvp. Except maybe a stupid stam Sorc. Enough with the whining. These changes are decent.

i have been here since 2013 beta, in all that time untill now Incapacitating strike has never even been questioned nor complained about nor even requested to be changed.
just recently within the past few months since these proc sets have come out there was 3 people here on forums asking for it to be changed.

people dont understand that the only really good skill we nightblades have is our invisibility and our Incapacitating strike.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

VigilantLance wrote: »

I can't believe the saltiness over here. This is absurd! Incapacitating strikes was too op to begin with for pvp. It's still needs an adjustment to be honest. For what it does, it needs to cost 100 ultimate at the very least.

Magblade is still a strong class. It survives far better than nearly every other class in pvp. Except maybe a stupid stam Sorc. Enough with the whining. These changes are decent.

i have been here since 2013 beta, in all that time untill now Incapacitating strike has never even been questioned nor complained about nor even requested to be changed.
just recently within the past few months since these proc sets have come out there was 3 people here on forums asking for it to be changed.

people dont understand that the only really good skill we nightblades have is our invisibility and our Incapacitating strike.

Well simple, before that it wasn't changed to disease damage to scale with mighty cp and got the stun without any condition.
Thats why nobody complained before. It just got overtuned.

And no good skills? Lol cmon dude. We have really strong passives 2 usable burst ultimates (one with 2 very usable morphs) and 1 situational mitigation ult, grimfocus for both magicka and stamina builds, a strong execute (not as strong as beam but still really good), a stamina spammable that applies major fracture to the enemie, cloak (which is buggy as hell atm though), fear (no doubt the strongest cc ingame), shade (a really strong survival tool if you know how to use it), a magicka spammable that heals, a nice dot with immobilize, an aoe that heals and gives major sorcery and brut, and a good sustain tool.
If you say you dont have any good abilities well then you have zero idea of how nb works.

olsborg wrote: »

I dont like the fact that more and more things are becoming undodgeable, this is in effect nerfing medium armor more and more because medium armor builds rely heavily on dodge to mitigate dmg. Heavy armor dont have to block half or even third as much and light armor can just spam their shields. Why indirectly keep nerfing the weakest armor of them all? (medium)

@ZOS_RichLambert

ZOS balance to all the proc set baddies

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert did you guys fix twisting path to scale with thaumaturge? it would be great!

That would make it on par for sure...

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:

• Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.
• Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%
• Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

While we appreciate the attention to buffing something, I just wanted to make sure you know that this acts only as a PVE buff and not a great one when most nightblades are running elemental wall over twisting path.

PVP is where a buff needs to occur, on the other hand we just got a nerf with incap, now I'm all for increasing incap, but there needs to be equivalency and give us a PVP buff somewhere.

Here is my second round of test data. The first is on page 11 and covers single target mNB, mSorc, and a ranged mTemplar build on the PTS test dummies. Most of this data has been reprinted here as well as the new data. This will do dual target range mNB, mSorc, melee mTemplar and a single target mDK, and sDK build (some things went awry scheduling and we really didn't get mDK done or most of the stam stuff at all.)


Dummy testing conditions:
For this testing the goal is to approach as closely as possible full raid buffs and raid conditions (so 18k+ toon health is present and the bars are what we would run for most trials though they don't all have the shield I understand you need for vMoL hard mode). A buff toon was created on a friends account for which a macro was written to maintain 100% uptime on the following buffs and debuffs ( engulfing, eled, combat prayer, igneous weapons, infallible, spell power cure.) 100% spell power potion up-time was also used. For the dual target testing the debuffs were applied only to the primary target and the dps parse was taken as soon as that target died with the second target taking only cleave damage and having no debuffs. No alkosh or warhorn was used since alkosh did not fit and warhorn would not be reliable. The stam toon did additionally have peirce armor and shards for boss debuff and stam resources though we didn't manage to get Nightmothers in because it got accidentally deleted when a template character was made. Rather than writing macros for the dps rotations of the test, which cannot be done for sorc anyway, I found the best folks I could for the different classes and the best dps's achieved are the ones here used. Either all or all but one of the testers have Flawless Conquer on the toon they were testing so they are not terrible.


Dummy results for round 2 (round 1 data is also here)

mSorc:
39.81k single target
This build features a 2 bar deep rotation with an infal lightning stave front bar with curse, bound, and inner light and a vMA flame back bar with blockade, liquid, wrath, bound, and inner. It is a light weave build and was not altered for the dual target test
56.6k dual target cleave


mTemplar ranged
32.9k (+3k from raid purifying) = ~35.9k expected single target
So mTemplar cannot really be fully raid buffed in testing because it's best dot, purifying light, stores up damage from all group mates. As such, we have simply added the expected amount here. Obviously mTemplar is usually run melee with sweeps instead of ranged with force pulse but here we illustrate that it can be done ranged with limited efficacy. This build was a medium weave build with 6, 6, 12 rotation featuring unstable wall, purifying, force pulse, and vamp bane on front and radiant oppression on back. Both bars were vMA inferno.

mTemplar melee (sweeps based)

36.9k single target
We worked 2 testers though quite a lot of different permutations with this one as both believe that mTempar will be the best dps trials load out post update. We tried with and without scalding rune, with and without trap, and some different rotation timings and different execute initiation and DOT's during execute. We also tried Moondancer / Grothdar / BSW with back bar having a vMA staff and front having the BSW swords as well as Julianos / Grothdar / BSW with back bar having a vMA staff and front having julianos swords. This was something of a Sophie's choice as nobody has Sharp BSW swords despite one tester being over 300 runs through COA1 (nice drop rates ZOS.) As tested the dps was similar between these setups but I expect would be far better with the first had it included sharp instead of precise swords. In fact, dps was surprisingly very stable despite a lot of different skill rotation tests as well.
54.6k cleave
Yea, Templar scales crazy well with cleave as not just DOT's but also the spam-able (puncturing) is a cleave.

mNB
33.4k single target
First, it should be mentioned that because of the unreliability of mNB funnel builds in procing BSW and llambris dps ranges widely from around 31k to this high of 33.4k. Despite this low proc rate, BSW and llambris are still OP enough to easily be BIS. Proc sets are just much stronger than straight stat sets such as the crafted Julianos or probably even TBS after the warhorn change. This NB was a medium weave 8, 8, 8 rotation with cripple, elemental blockade, funnel, relentless, inner light front bar and sap, imple, blockade, inner light, siphoning on back. A vMA inferno was used both bars. As for using force pulse, to do this gives up the off-heals that are really the only reason for mNB existence now. Testing has also shown a negligible improvement in dps for the switch. You really just become a very bad sorc as a NB running force pulse.
41.4k Cleave
This cleave was with the above rotation. Clearly more AOE would be obtainable with twisting path and force pulse and right now I find this the difficult choice of a mNB as switching to force pulse is definitely a group disadvantage for single target with the off heals from funnel being obviously better than the extra dps (about 10% of group heals vs one player and maybe 2k dps max) and twisting having always shown as a dps loss single target when I tested it as well as making the rotation significantly harder. The updated damage should make twisting an easy dps gain though I do not see a duration change so it will still make a mess of a rotation.

mDK
36.7k single target
The mDK testing really didn't go exactly how I wanted as schedules didn't line up well with any of the testers. The result was that I was in a raid when the testing was done. and so only single target got done and I didn't get the exact details of the rotation. It was infal / grothdar / BSW / vMA staff / and infal staff both staves I think were fire though so there may be some room here to think about a shock on one bar. I don't think the tester had a sharp shock infal stave though (again those lovely sharpened weapon drop rates that matter so much).

sDK
34k single target
Again, this was not near all the testing I wanted and I am not so confident with the resualts. Only one guy tested it out and he did not have another guy in group with nightmothers for that debuff either. Still, the guy has a history as a very good stam dk so I was a bit shocked when it registered the close to the lowest dps. I really expected it to still keep pace near the top in single target dps. The stam nerfs and relative nerfs (buffs to mag sets and now stave passives) the past 2 or 3 patches have been pretty harsh and clearly the trap nerf this time is a bit much. Remember when it was stam or go home? Not anymore. Seems more like, Stam? Go home.

Conclusions, or at least discussion
So that is probably it for testing since I will be out of town next week. I am unsatisfied with the mDK and sDK numbers and think I really needed some more testers and some more tests to have much confidence in my feelings on that which are basically mDK looks quite good and stam in PVE looks quite dead. I feel quite good about the mTemplar and mSorc tests and I really wish we had the slated mNB changes now to test them since this testing was really about mNB. I think that the twisting path change magnitude +37% is probably quite good but I still worry about the poor ability of mNB to proc the OP BSW set as well as llambris as a big disadvantage. Magic damage is just such a red headed stepchild of damages. No status effect, no +10% from engulfing flames, and literally 0 of the OP proc sets based on it. It is just bad. Also, it looks like path will still have a timing that does not well align with the other NB skills making is a messy rotation. With a messy rotation you could have the more robust Sorc or go with a cleaner rotation with mNB though getting the gear for that with the sharp BSW or moondancer swords is a very low success proposition (like probably 500 or so runs for average acquisition) given the mess with weapon drop rates. I loathe messy rotation timings and was under the impression ZOS was intending to try to get away from that. With the change to sorc curse and the now boosting of twisting path without a duration change rotations actually look messier on the builds that matter than before though.

Anyhow, I am happy so see some attention being paid to the mNB dps issue and hope it works out well. I am also excited about the teaser on making relentless focus great again.

-47

BohnT wrote: »

The incap change is good. They could also reduce the heal debuff to 3 seconds and it would still be pretty good.
I main a NB since Beta and incap was not that good until they changed it and made it way to strong.

that is false information.
here is the truth:
i have been here since 2013 beta, in all that time untill now Incapacitating strike has never even been questioned nor complained about nor even requested to be changed.
just recently within the past few months since these proc sets have come out there was 3 people here on forums asking for it to be changed.
people dont understand that the only really good skill we nightblades have is our invisibility and our Incapacitating strike.
if you feel i am not correct then why not show me some evidence or threads or anything anywhere on the internet that shows i am wrong in my statement.

Oh no someone with that stupid unicorn mentality.
I'm correct until you evidence that I'm wrong. That is *** just look through the pts forums about incap.
And everything you say is crap too. NB has argueably the best passives for PVP, they have the best stam spammable, the best cc, the easiest way to sustain any fight, good ultimate, high mobility and the best way to leave a sticky situation (if it works). Every good nb will tell you that incap is way to strong and is just as bad as Jesus beam or destro ult.

Incapacitating strike,
no change is needed in it at all, no one has ever complained about it. no one. atleast not untill the proc sets came out.
what has happened is the proc sets increased its damage. nothing more.
Incapacitating strike never needed a change. people whom dont like incap are the ones whom are dying to it.
if i go to the sorcerer thread and make complaints about thier ability to do high damage enough, then maybe zenimax will remove and alter thier damage. and even that huge Girth red ring that takes everyone out of stealth. i sit on that complaint here on the forums untill its removed.
or, what about going to the templar threads, and complain about them to the pojnt where they have thier ability to heal all the way out of a close death call. and the fact that they should not be able to stunn Anyone, they have no need to stunn people and no need to do damage since thier a healing class and not meant for damage.
and if i sit on that complaint and daily make threads about it and constantly mention it then in time i could even have the changes in thier class that i want as well.
and then i can start in on the dragonights class. how thier constant rooting people with stunn and alot of fire damage is just way too high. and that the drgon leap does far too much damage, especially since thier class is not meant to do anything but Tank, so why should they have any abilities like that.
ill sit and point it out on every thread i can and every time i comment.
perhaps if i do those things like has been recently and is going on here in this thread. it will then look as if im right, and then we will begin to see changes to those classes.

thats not only childish but that is completely unfair to that class, especially since the greater majority of people in those classes cant even come here to the forums and try to stop my complaints by pointing out the truth.

and in the end my complaints would outweigh thier facts, and the changes i request would happen.

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

This increased micromanagement on Grim Focus is key to how mageblade plays in PvP, though. Please don't change it. Make tweaks elsewhere in the class to appease the PvEers, please.

Side note, thank you greatly for the Path buffs. Excellent ability in concept in need of a little higher tuning, loving that attention.

Sorcs have crystal frags that proc easily. This upcoming change would bring us more in line with sorcs. I know you enjoy a fight with your hands tied behind your back, but most other mageblades out there don't

"Make us into sorcs!"

"Make playing mageblade easier!"

I would love to see ZoS's statistics on how many players in PvP are on stamina nightblades.

When I get a Kill Enemy Nightblades quest, it might as well be Kill Enemy Players.

I wonder why. People must like the way they look or something...