PTS Feedback Thread for Nightblade Balance Improvements

aeowulf · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

For Update 13, our overall goal was to lessen the gap between the top and bottom. (in terms of overall damage output, coordinated vs. uncoordinated, small and large scale PVE & PVP) This doesn’t mean all classes are perfectly equal in all ways or that we want to remove skill from the game. We want to establish a solid baseline so that we can better tune and tweak balance. For this update we attacked this problem from multiple angles by doing the following:
Lowering the ceiling on the top damage

Raising the floor on the bottom damage

Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

If the change to Strife is a balance change, it does not fit in with this plan, if anything it increases the gap which is the opposite of the intention of the above. The impact is relatively greater for those with lower cp (thus likely damage) than those with higher cp by the time you look at cost reduction cp passives. It makes no change to rotation plans either.

NightbladeMechanics · January 2017

I want to see Agony given a damage threshold before the cc breaks, like Fossilize has.

I want to see the Malefic Wreath morph of Agony reworked into a stamina ability.

I want to see Manifestation of Terror reverted to the original size and, when triggered, detonate into a ground aoe the size of Desecrated Ground which lasts for 4-6 seconds and slows and debuffs enemies standing on it. I in particular want a debuff that makes walking on the aoe dangerous for enemy players. Perhaps apply Minor Vulnerability to attract people to this as a higher damage yet harder to apply morph. Players will place them strategically, kiting enemies out over terrain, maneuver enemies over their insidious little traps, then combo opponents as the trap detonates. Counterplay, thoughtfulness, and a stronger nightblade house.

I want to see the snare removed from Mass Hysteria. It simply does it all right now. Make Manifestation into the snaring, kiting morph, and keep Mass Hysteria as the "push people off of you" defensive morph.

I want to see Debilitate either heal for a % of damage dealt, OR reworked into a stamina ability to rival Poison Injection. If this is done, it should debuff the enemy to soften them up and be made to apply to only one target at a time.

I want to see Consuming Darkness get a juicy aoe synergy for group PvP, strong enough to compete with standard and nova. It needs to heavily limit movement, damage, and durability but not deal a ton of damage itself.

I want to see Leeching Strikes not a toggle, and its downsides removed. This ability might need further buffs, but I want to see how it performs.

I might have more ideas later...

old_mufasa · January 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

For Update 13, our overall goal was to lessen the gap between the top and bottom. (in terms of overall damage output, coordinated vs. uncoordinated, small and large scale PVE & PVP) This doesn’t mean all classes are perfectly equal in all ways or that we want to remove skill from the game. We want to establish a solid baseline so that we can better tune and tweak balance. For this update we attacked this problem from multiple angles by doing the following:
Lowering the ceiling on the top damage

Raising the floor on the bottom damage

Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

If the change to Strife is a balance change, it does not fit in with this plan, if anything it increases the gap which is the opposite of the intention of the above. The impact is relatively greater for those with lower cp (thus likely damage) than those with higher cp by the time you look at cost reduction cp passives. It makes no change to rotation plans either.

Ya I asked the same thing in that thread.. how is the nerfs to magblade in anyway reflected with there goals on class balance..

ZOS_RichLambert · January 2017

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:

Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.
Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%
Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Lucky28 · January 2017

@ZOS_RichLambert awesome, good that path got a buff.

what about the fact that nightblades rely so heavly on crit?. the changes to crit directly impact the class.

mr_wazzabi · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

@ZOS_RichLambert

The path buff is a very welcome change.

We really appreciate you guys looking into grim focus mechanics.

Can we get a reconsideration for the strife cost increase? As many have mentioned, the increase will really hurt sustain on nb tanks and dw magicka dps.

Also a buff to concealed weapon in the form of a cost increase or added dps effect would be great.

Thanks for listening!

Preyfar · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

This is definitely an interesting buff, and may make Path a nice alternative to Wall of Elements now (FINALLY!).

ManDraKE · January 2017

The cost increase of Incap is reasonable, it was an obvious after DBoS got his cost increase, you won't get an argument from me. BUT PLEASE we need cloak to work properly.

HuawaSepp · January 2017

The change of Path of Darkness is a good start, but that won't be enough to make mag NBs competetive again.
Mag NBs need better support or dmg, even with the change they are just medicore Sorcs.

DPShiro · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Wow finally a buff for the neglected mNB

Now if only we get the auto refresh it will make me take it into end game stuff again

kylewwefan · January 2017

Can you make the stamina morf of drain power heal you like the magic one does.

It would also be great if leeching strikes didn't nerf damage 20% make us comparable to stam sorcs Crit surge.

arkansas_ESO · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Are these all of the NB changes we can expect for U13? They don't really amount to much, NB is still in a worse spot than it was before, and it was already pretty bad.

Brrrofski · January 2017

Incapable nerf is fair.

Path is a good buff for PvE (great for my saptank).

But how does this help mag NB in PvP? Along with stamplars, they are set early lacking compared to other classes. Doesn't that tell you something is up?

Why play a magica NB over a sorc in PvP? NB have better sustain (which you need to work for) and better ults. That's it. Sorcs have better burst damage (the only kind that counts in open world PvP), better survivability, better escape, way better execute (seriously, impale just gets dodged constantly) and mobility and help a group a lot more.

It's just a rubbish sorc currently. One shield, frag that requires 4 light attacks to proc and an escape tool that doesn't work.

VelociousLegend · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

These were definitely points we brought up in this thread. This is a solid start. And I hope that your team continues to look at the other pain points (as you mentioned the grim focus skill) to make more changes in the future!

Izaki · January 2017

Wait so... Is Soul Harvest still at 50 ult cost? That would be great.

hobicabobjob · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Will there be more?

Twisting path DPS increase of about 800 DPS best case is unlikely to make up for the devalued crit passive or damage reduction of grim focus.

xblackroxe · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Really nice buff to path. That's definitely gonna make NB's viable alternatives to sorcs again.

Its nice to see that you actually listen to the feedback and bring some changes where its needed, I didnt have any hope for those pts3 changes to be any good.

Still some way to go but we are gonna get there!

boundsy88 · January 2017

Soo your telling me that all the QQing stamplars managed to get zos to buff the hell out of the class, but a class that is seriously struggling right now like magicka nightblade gets absolutely nothing?

kojou · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

I would rather Path ran for 16 seconds than have the damage buffed by 32% so it would make a nice rotation with Blockade and Cripple (8 seconds), but in general I actually think this will be a really good change for Nightblades in PVE since Twisting Path covers a large area, and is now something you can include in your AOE rotation. On a lightning bar it will get 8% more damage, so it is definitely worth a slot now instead of being situational and iffy.

If I could have one more wish, I would want to change it to an elemental damage (Shock or Fire) so it would proc Ilambris or Burning Spell Weave respectively, but a flat damage increase is very welcome.

Nutshotz · January 2017

It's a start for the mNB for pve wise.

[Edited to remove reference to content that was removed.]

DPShiro · January 2017

boundsy88 wrote: »

Soo your telling me that all the QQing stamplars managed to get zos to buff the hell out of the class, but a class that is seriously struggling right now like magicka nightblade gets absolutely nothing?

What? PVE Stamina Temlars got 0 buffs, while Magicka Nightblade at least got a buff to one skill.

Brrrofski · January 2017

boundsy88 wrote: »

Soo your telling me that all the QQing stamplars managed to get zos to buff the hell out of the class, but a class that is seriously struggling right now like magicka nightblade gets absolutely nothing?

Hey man, I QQed about both. I tried man!

One was a fix, another an ultimate probably inferior to Dawn breaker and jabs now matches sweeps, which is again more of a fix.

But yeh, magica NB still got no help in PvP.

boundsy88 · January 2017

DPShiro wrote: »

boundsy88 wrote: »

Soo your telling me that all the QQing stamplars managed to get zos to buff the hell out of the class, but a class that is seriously struggling right now like magicka nightblade gets absolutely nothing?

What? PVE Stamina Temlars got 0 buffs, while Magicka Nightblade at least got a buff to one skill.

by the looks of it you are a pve'r. did u forget there is pvp in ESO?

ZOS_DaryaK · January 2017

We've removed a lengthy series of posts that nearly derailed this thread. Please keep your comments directly relevant to the topic which is feedback for Nightblade balance improvements.

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Stamblades are underperforming in PvE, and PvP (unless we're talking about ganking), so you nerf them. Makes sense.

Okay so let me start by saying that increasing the cost to 62 would have been appropriate; 70 is slightly too much. You should also increase the 20% damage increase, and major defile duration by the appropriate amount (doubling the length for 70 cost, 4 additional seconds for 62 cost).

Also are you not aware that by nerfing ONLY Incap, you have killed that move? Why would I use Incap every 24 seconds when I could use Soul Harvest every 17 seconds? By choosing the stamina morph, I am now suffering a major damage loss.

ScruffyWhiskers · January 2017

Rich, could you please have the team look at the PvP MELEE magicka NB. There are so very few of us left. I've been playing since late beta. I've weathered every meta tsunami, adapted as best I could and still played my own style and always come back even after long breaks because it's a great game and Cyrodiil is a great pvp environment. But melee mag nb is in real hole right now.

Also, could you please update us on the steps taken to address the Miat addon? I can't say that I even know what your official position is on the advantages that the addon confers to its users.

LiquidPony · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

@ZOS_RichLambert

So, uh, stamblades are for PvP only now?

Gonna have to retire my Trials stamblade toon and switch to a Magsorc since apparently we're willing to capitulate on changes to the class that was already at the top of the raiding hierarchy.

Oy vey.

Brrrofski · January 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Stamblades are underperforming in PvE, and PvP (unless we're talking about ganking), so you nerf them. Makes sense.

Okay so let me start by saying that increasing the cost to 62 would have been appropriate; 70 is slightly too much. You should also increase the 20% damage increase, and major defile duration by the appropriate amount (doubling the length for 70 cost, 4 additional seconds for 62 cost).

Also are you not aware that by nerfing ONLY Incap, you have killed that move? Why would I use Incap every 24 seconds when I could use Soul Harvest every 17 seconds? By choosing the stamina morph, I am now suffering a major damage loss.

Come on man, stam nightbalde is incredibly strong in PvP. I don't run a gank build and can 1vX easier than on anything other class. Outside of Maelstrom, do stamblades use incap in PvE?

DPShiro · January 2017

boundsy88 wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

boundsy88 wrote: »

Soo your telling me that all the QQing stamplars managed to get zos to buff the hell out of the class, but a class that is seriously struggling right now like magicka nightblade gets absolutely nothing?

What? PVE Stamina Temlars got 0 buffs, while Magicka Nightblade at least got a buff to one skill.

by the looks of it you are a pve'r. did u forget there is pvp in ESO?

Yes I actually try to forget it - but then balance notes and patches come around and I get reminded that the cancer mode is still available and it affects my PVE because of all forum whiners that can't l2p

LiquidPony · January 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback and discussions in this thread. We have a couple updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Incapacitating Strike – Increased the cost of this ultimate to 70 from 50.

Path of Darkness (and morphs) – Increased the base ability damage by 25%

Twisting Path – Increased the damage of this morph by 7% over the base ability. (Total damage increase of 32% over live)

As a note, we definitely hear your feedback on Grim Focus and agree it requires more micromanagement than most other abilities. We are looking into solutions, but we do not expect to get changes in for Update 13.

Stamblades are underperforming in PvE, and PvP (unless we're talking about ganking), so you nerf them. Makes sense.

Okay so let me start by saying that increasing the cost to 62 would have been appropriate; 70 is slightly too much. You should also increase the 20% damage increase, and major defile duration by the appropriate amount (doubling the length for 70 cost, 4 additional seconds for 62 cost).

Also are you not aware that by nerfing ONLY Incap, you have killed that move? Why would I use Incap every 24 seconds when I could use Soul Harvest every 17 seconds? By choosing the stamina morph, I am now suffering a major damage loss.

Come on man, stam nightbalde is incredibly strong in PvP. I don't run a gank build and can 1vX easier than on anything other class. Outside of Maelstrom, do stamblades use incap in PvE?

Occasionally but not often.

The funny thing is ... Maelstrom is the only PvE content where stamblades are competitive right now. And nerfed.