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New vet dungeons are too easy! Make them harder!

  • Destruent
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    And i would expect to die, if the tank doesn't taunt anything or i stand in stupid all the time...but this doesn't happen usually. Do you see the problem? You can basically do anything but playing and still succeed in those dungeons.
    Noobplar
  • CP5
    CP5
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    I went into BC1 on vet to try things out on my tank. The only time I was at any risk of getting killed is when i physically stopped doing anything to defend myself. Nothing was a threat, just a time sink. Vet dungeons should be a challenge, and with the normal mode giving the same reward (save for vet hard modes), the vet has every reason to be a worth wile challenge. But this, it was a joke. And those saying one tamerial is for 'new' players, that's incorrect, its being implemented so all players, new and old, are able to fully interact with each-other. Whats the point of that if the 'new' vet dungeons are so brain dead easy?
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    I see a lot of shouting past each other in this thread and not really understanding where either side is coming from.

    My opinion on the matter is this- I don't consider myself a casual player, but I also don't consider myself a min/maxxer either.

    Since I started running higher tier dungeons like ICP and WGT I realized that not all veteran dungeons are created equal.

    Veteran Fungal Grotto will NEVER be in the same league as Veteran ICP or Mazzatum.

    As someone who started this game stumbling around with a templar with *** stats all over the place it's good to have easy veteran dungeons to ease you in to the much harder ones that lead to much better results. You wouldn't believe how many PUG groups I joined in as healer and watch as the team struggled to beat the mid boss lady on Veteran mode because it hasn't kicked in yet that it's more than just depleting a health sponge and ignoring fallen teammates.
    I still to this day see PUGS struggle with getting past the huge Daedroth in City of Ash. That is still a section of the dungeon that literally makes or breaks a team.

    The reality is- is that higher CP, and GOOD CP allocation means that vet dungeons that are hard are going to be 'easy' even though you are literally trying to make yourself wipe. Especially if you have good traits, armor, food, potions and enchantments to boot.

    Telling high level players looking for a challenge in previously easy vet dungeons to take out your CP and do naked runs isn't the solution. Also, telling new players who casual players who don't have a lot of time on their hands to 'git gud' and shut up also doesn't solve anything either.

    I think there is definitely criticism to be had if the 'hard' versions of bosses in Vet mode simply have higher HP. But also consider that there are some bosses where that CAN be an genuine challenge especially when the boss in question already has a very tiring mechanic to begin with.
    Take Lord Warden in vICP. As a healer this dude is such a hassle to deal with. A lot of concentration on healing because it's AoE spam EVERYWHERE and DPS and tank have no choice BUT to move around the map to deal damage to him and avoid portals. Depending on the PUG/guild group there are sessions where I am THANKFUL that I didn't have to fight the dude any longer because I was starting to run out of resources.
    Other fights like the final boss of vFG are useless as bigger health sponges. To me PERSONALLY because I already know the mechanics of the final boss down to a T and at this point it's like I'm on auto pilot.

    In those instances I can see suggesting to Zos team to give a more unique challenge or twist to the final boss. Perhaps a mechanic they had plans to utilize on the boss but ultimately scrapped it.
    That kind of change however takes time. Too much time for them to be able to implement by the time this next patch goes LIVE.

    I think if we pitch this idea to the ZoS team in a mature, kind and understanding manner we can see it happening in a future update. I might not be the one after the upcoming update, but maybe 3 updates from now depending on what their priorities are.
    But this screeching, yelling and slap fighting at each other isn't going to solve anything. And it certainly makes it very easy for a disgruntled staff member to simply speed scroll past when looking at forum feedback.

    I didn't think I'd see sense in this thread. I am pleasently suprised.

    I agree with this wholeheartedly. Specifically the bit about fungal grotto not being in the same league. But the rest, I think is something people from either camp need to read.

    Would I be opposed to the final bosses geting a tuneup? Possibly, probs not, but I gotta pug this crap day after day so that's where I'm coming from. The challenging content you need a guild to run is geting it's own questgiver this update. This means it's not gonna interfere with the normal pugs so when you -get- hard content it'll likely be not watered down anymore because they dont have to for the gold pledges.

    I dont think the vet vanilla dungeons need to be harder. I think that there's a place for everyone, here. And I think we need to stop trying to battle each other to the death like gladiators.
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  • Magic_Doogies
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    I didn't think I'd see sense in this thread. I am pleasently suprised.

    I agree with this wholeheartedly. Specifically the bit about fungal grotto not being in the same league. But the rest, I think is something people from either camp need to read.

    Would I be opposed to the final bosses geting a tuneup? Possibly, probs not, but I gotta pug this crap day after day so that's where I'm coming from.

    Oh trust me I definitely understand where you are coming from with this. I've definitely had days where I say to myself "really guys? Come on now". Sometimes I take a little bit of that frustration and tell group what they are doing wrong and stop standing in AoE or not rezzing teammates until it's just me and tank that has to do it.
    Worst case scenario I simply say 'I gotta go' and leave the group.
    But then also step back and remember that just 5 months ago that was ME. I was the noob healer in City of Ash Deaderoth boss that had 15 attribute points allocated to health and thinking that spamming BoL and depleting my magicka like mad was what top tier healing looks like.
    It wasn't until I was doing a community event of vMoL with a guild and the guild leader noticed my BoL spam and redirected me to using Lingering Ritual that I started 'getting it' and working to become better at the game.
    The challenging content you need a guild to run is geting it's own questgiver this update. This means it's not gonna interfere with the normal pugs so when you -get- hard content it'll likely be not watered down anymore because they dont have to for the gold pledges.

    I'll be honest I haven't tried out anything on the PST. Hell I don't even have it downloaded. For me I kind of see it as spoilers and would rather wait for it to hit LIVE. I do however look up threads here and on the subreddit and videos on the matter to form my own personal opinion on the matter.
    I do think they should be more creative with how they make the bosses optionally harder for players looking for a challenge. It's not like that concept for them is unfamiliar since in various Gold pledge dungeons you have the choice to destroy alchemy notes, or precious belongings to the boss to make them harder. Often times the boss spams a lot more of it's devastating and frustrating mechanics. Like Lord Warden throwing his mini meteors all over the place.
    I dont think the vet vanilla dungeons need to be harder. I think that there's a place for everyone, here. And I think we need to stop trying to battle each other to the death like gladiators.

    Yeah, as new content comes out older veteran dungeons are going to be cakewalks to those who have played it a lot in the past or simply have way too much CP to have them be hard anymore on a baseline level.

    I lurked these forums a lot before dusting off my old and disused forum account to actually begin commenting. One thing that irks me on this forums is that a lot of users love getting at each others throats and liberally passive aggressively @well known mods about issues they have in rant threads.
    That kind of feedback environment lends itself to more aggression and staff probably ignoring criticism threads or certain threads made by users because said person has a habit of yelling and finger pointing.
  • acw37162
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    531 or 561

    Maxed out gear

    Know what your doing

    Yeah, 80 % of the community is not you.

    Glad you crushed it though, this means when the random dungeon finder works I might be able to get a monster helm, maybe
  • MissBizz
    MissBizz
    Community Ambassador
    @acw37162 Which of the "new" vet dungeons on PTS did you try and have problems with if you believe they are already difficult enough?
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  • Nifty2g
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    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Nifty2g wrote: »
    you are all forgetting what these dungeons are meant for

    It helps add difficulty and a learning curve upwards to veteran modes, these dungeons are not meant to be the hardest things ever

    but be happy, this allows future dungeons to have a harder veteran

    Actually, if there was to be a learning curve, they should be somewhere in between old veteran and DLC veteran difficulty.

    Which means they should include some basic mechanics along with some unique mechanics f.e. on last bosses.

    You know, to prepare players for the mechanic intensive DLC dungeons.

    Heck, even old vet Fungal's first boss is very mechanical for new players, how are the new vet dungeons an upgrade to that?
    The learning curve would go

    Normal - Normal Veteran
    Veteran - Veteran Hardmode
    DLC Normal
    DLC Veteran - DLC Veteran Hardmode

    Thats just common sense as to what ZOS are doing?
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  • Osteos
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    Just did vet VoM and it was way too easy. In fact it seemed like the damage from the Atronach's fire lines and the titan's leap and fire breath were reduced. It did take longer to kill the final boss so some people in the random group i was in got to see the safety dome for the first time. But overall the need to be buffed up a bit.
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  • Tannus15
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    Nifty2g wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Nifty2g wrote: »
    you are all forgetting what these dungeons are meant for

    It helps add difficulty and a learning curve upwards to veteran modes, these dungeons are not meant to be the hardest things ever

    but be happy, this allows future dungeons to have a harder veteran

    Actually, if there was to be a learning curve, they should be somewhere in between old veteran and DLC veteran difficulty.

    Which means they should include some basic mechanics along with some unique mechanics f.e. on last bosses.

    You know, to prepare players for the mechanic intensive DLC dungeons.

    Heck, even old vet Fungal's first boss is very mechanical for new players, how are the new vet dungeons an upgrade to that?
    The learning curve would go

    Normal - Normal Veteran
    Veteran - Veteran Hardmode
    DLC Normal
    DLC Veteran - DLC Veteran Hardmode

    Thats just common sense as to what ZOS are doing?

    This is exactly what I'm expecting.

    Some of the dungeons which don't have a vet story (story 2?) right now should be pretty hard in vet mode though. Blackheart Haven for example I'd expect to be on par with the current Veteran dungeons.
  • newtinmpls
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    My worry in general is that people who play a LOT and who pay attention a LOT to mechanics - um not so much total min-maxers, but skilled players who are skilled AT this particular MMO won't really understand ... how not "easy" things are/can be to people newer to this game (or MMOs in general).

    It was a couple weeks ago when I saw a video on youtube that I realized that "red circles of danger" and "don't stand in stupid" are NOT unique to ESO.

    It was ... about 6 months ago (and I've been playing since a little after PC launch) that I realized that I don't make new armor any more for every level or two. That I rarely worry if it's higher than white. This from a person who used to get giddy with a new set 'cause now I wouldn't die all the time (and this was playing "single" content [following the main questlines] with two players - my spouse and I would do most all of it in tandem).

    So this thread worries me, because I really don't think that the ... very top players ... have any real idea of how different they are now, then the used to be.

    So I was very very happy to read this:
    UrQuan wrote: »
    The way it should work is that the normal mode of the original dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for newer players who don't have much group dungeon experience. When they get to a point where those aren't very challenging anymore, then the vet mode of those same dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for those players. That's not what I'm seeing here.

    I agree.

    I also think that's a heck of a challenge.
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  • Fabulosity
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    What's Blackheart Haven like on veteran? I've always found this dungeon to be difficult with inexperienced pugs.
  • thewolphub17_ESO
    Asmael wrote: »
    3e40a58cb6.png

    Nice to see Zos taking feedback into acount, and making new dungeons harder than norm...

    Wait a sec...

    Yeah, those 255 people are really a good indication of the game as a whole... /sh
  • acw37162
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    MissBizz wrote: »
    @acw37162 Which of the "new" vet dungeons on PTS did you try and have problems with if you believe they are already difficult enough?

    Vet Blackheart, but I had more of problem getting disconnecting from test while in the dungeon and groups falling apart via disconnects then the dungeon itself.

    I don't find any vet dungeon really difficult even on live, if I run them with my normal guild mates, but I find even simple dungeons difficult with pugs or randoms.

    I don't consider most people on test randoms either, I'll be more then happy to run any of them with you on test.

    Edit: for the record I'm neither opposed to or for a difficulty hike, neutral, or reduction. I am aware I am equal parts likely to get max CP max gear player as I am a someone who still isn't aware you can weapon swap or thinks you can heal a dungeon with a vigor or got this really awesome new purple flame staff on their stam night blade when using the group finding tool. Which I actually use liberally, sometimes with great success in the hardest content and sometimes with great failure in the easiest.

    Edited by acw37162 on September 6, 2016 9:05AM
  • Mettaricana
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    Why so competitive guys there's no leader board if its easier fine christ dark souls is easier than the content your looking for
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  • Dubhliam
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    This is a visual representation of how I think the difficulty curve should look:
    Pledges.png

    The big question is: what makes a dungeon hard?
    Mechanics.
    The Glirion veteran dungeons currently don't fit into the above chart, simply because they lack meaningful mechanics.
    Making the boss have 30kk health does not make the fight challenging, it just makes the fight tedious.

    These new veteran versions of dungeons are a perfect opportunity to fill the gap in difficulty we have from vanilla vet dungeon and DLC dungeon difficulty.

    My suggestion would be to introduce a new, dungeon specific mechanic on the veteran Hard Mode of the last boss in each of those dungeons.
    Also, make the regular mechanics (must block heavy attacks, must interrupt channels, don't stand in red etc.) meaningful throughout veteran Glirion dungeons.
    F.e. a light armor damage dealer with 17k health should not be able to survive the first boss' heavy attack without blocking.
    Edited by Dubhliam on September 6, 2016 9:29AM
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Mettaricana
    Mettaricana
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    Dubhliam wrote: »
    This is a visual representation of how I think the difficulty curve should look:
    Pledges.png

    The big question is: what makes a dungeon hard?
    Mechanics.
    The Glirion veteran dungeons currently don't fit into the above chart, simply because they lack meaningful mechanics.
    Making the boss have 30kk health does not make the fight challenging, it just makes the fight tedious.

    These new veteran versions of dungeons are a perfect opportunity to fill the gap in difficulty we have from vanilla vet dungeon and DLC dungeon difficulty.

    My suggestion would be to introduce a new, dungeon specific mechanic on the veteran Hard Mode of the last boss in each of those dungeons.
    Also, make the regular mechanics (must block heavy attacks, must interrupt channels, don't stand in red etc.) meaningful throughout veteran Glirion dungeons.
    F.e. a light armor damage dealer with 17k health should not be able to survive the first boss' heavy attack without blocking.

    I dunno one shot level dmg on a light armor seems harsh one shot gimmicks kinda make fight lame I've seen tanks taunt and bosses say f*** that and one shot a healer instead of focusing on tank
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  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
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    I dunno one shot level dmg on a light armor seems harsh one shot gimmicks kinda make fight lame I've seen tanks taunt and bosses say f*** that and one shot a healer instead of focusing on tank

    It's a damn boss!
    The tank should have aggro, if he makes a mistake you need to pay attention and either shield yourself, block or dodge a heavy attack.

    It's called a learning curve - something that will slightly prepare you for the punishing DLC veteran dungeons.
    Edited by Dubhliam on September 6, 2016 9:36AM
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • UrQuan
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    newtinmpls wrote: »
    So this thread worries me, because I really don't think that the ... very top players ... have any real idea of how different they are now, then the used to be.

    So I was very very happy to read this:
    UrQuan wrote: »
    The way it should work is that the normal mode of the original dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for newer players who don't have much group dungeon experience. When they get to a point where those aren't very challenging anymore, then the vet mode of those same dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for those players. That's not what I'm seeing here.

    I agree.

    I also think that's a heck of a challenge.
    Well, don't forget that I'm not exactly even close to being one of the "very top players" lol. I'd like to consider myself above average, but I'm still just a casual who plays a lot. On the other hand, @Nifty2g definitely is one of the very top players, and it sounds like he's asking for a similar progression of difficulty to what I'd like to see. Because, you know, that's what would be good for the game.

    I think the point that a lot of the "don't make the new vet dungeons any harder" crowd is missing is that at the level of difficulty they're at now, anyone who's new to vet dungeons who tries them will then have a really rude surprise if they then try the vet version of one of the part II dungeons, or one of the DLC dungeons. Currently there's a huge gap in difficulty between a non-vet dungeon and a vet dungeon. On PTS there's a tiny gap in difficulty between the part I non-vet and the part I vet dungeons, and then a huge gap in difficulty between a part I vet and a part II vet. This should be an opportunity to reduce the learning curve and provide a smoother difficulty progression between the different types of dungeons. Not an opportunity to maintain the difficulty gap that has made many people give up on doing vet dungeons after their first attempt.
    acw37162 wrote: »
    MissBizz wrote: »
    @acw37162 Which of the "new" vet dungeons on PTS did you try and have problems with if you believe they are already difficult enough?

    Vet Blackheart, but I had more of problem getting disconnecting from test while in the dungeon and groups falling apart via disconnects then the dungeon itself.
    Blackheart is probably the toughest of the original non-vet dungeons (with maybe Vaults of Madness coming in second), and it can give PUGs trouble already, so I can imagine that the difficulty of the new vet version of it might actually not need to be buffed. Just adding more health to Captain Blackheart would probably be enough to make that fight into a vet-level fight, because any group that's not well coordinated is going to have trouble with it - especially if they're relying heavily on one or two more experienced members. The longer that fight takes the more likely it is that a crucial party member will get turned into a skeleton at an inconvenient time.

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    This is a visual representation of how I think the difficulty curve should look:
    Pledges.png

    The big question is: what makes a dungeon hard?
    Mechanics.
    The Glirion veteran dungeons currently don't fit into the above chart, simply because they lack meaningful mechanics.
    Making the boss have 30kk health does not make the fight challenging, it just makes the fight tedious.

    These new veteran versions of dungeons are a perfect opportunity to fill the gap in difficulty we have from vanilla vet dungeon and DLC dungeon difficulty.

    My suggestion would be to introduce a new, dungeon specific mechanic on the veteran Hard Mode of the last boss in each of those dungeons.
    Also, make the regular mechanics (must block heavy attacks, must interrupt channels, don't stand in red etc.) meaningful throughout veteran Glirion dungeons.
    F.e. a light armor damage dealer with 17k health should not be able to survive the first boss' heavy attack without blocking.
    I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter B)

    Seriously, though, your chart is how I think the difficulty progression should go as well. At least I think so, I don't remember for sure which pledge giver has been given which dungeons...

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    This is a visual representation of how I think the difficulty curve should look:
    Pledges.png

    The big question is: what makes a dungeon hard?
    Mechanics.
    The Glirion veteran dungeons currently don't fit into the above chart, simply because they lack meaningful mechanics.
    Making the boss have 30kk health does not make the fight challenging, it just makes the fight tedious.

    These new veteran versions of dungeons are a perfect opportunity to fill the gap in difficulty we have from vanilla vet dungeon and DLC dungeon difficulty.

    My suggestion would be to introduce a new, dungeon specific mechanic on the veteran Hard Mode of the last boss in each of those dungeons.
    Also, make the regular mechanics (must block heavy attacks, must interrupt channels, don't stand in red etc.) meaningful throughout veteran Glirion dungeons.
    F.e. a light armor damage dealer with 17k health should not be able to survive the first boss' heavy attack without blocking.

    I dunno one shot level dmg on a light armor seems harsh one shot gimmicks kinda make fight lame I've seen tanks taunt and bosses say f*** that and one shot a healer instead of focusing on tank

    Some boss attacks target randomly regardless of taunts. Often those attacks will one-shot anyone with about 17K health or less if they're not paying attention. The point of those attacks, though, is that they force you to pay attention to what the boss is doing, because they're always telegraphed in some way, and there's always a way to avoid being one-shotted by them (usually just by blocking). If you get one-shotted by one of those attacks it's either because you didn't know the mechanic (in which case you should now know to look for it next time), or you weren't paying attention. In either case, you should learn from it and do better next time.
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  • Sallington
    Sallington
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    One Tamriel is all about the casualification of ESO, so this doesn't surprise me at all.
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  • dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO
    Avenias wrote: »
    If you find the Vet dungeons are too easy, take off ur clothes and try again.
    One Tamriel update is meant for New players only who needs time to adjust, it has nothing to do with existing players, so asking ZOS to make content for existing players will not work. Just be glad they are actually doing something, the bar is already rock bottom.

    what the hell are you talking about, the game has NORMAL and VETERAN, one for new players and one for high level players, what would be the point of making 2 normal versions and no vet version? WHAT IS THE POINT
    normal should be scaled in the 0-160 range and vet should be 400+ simple as that. hardmode scroll should be level cap

    all versions drop gear at max level if your there, all drop keys now. there just is no reason to have easymode walkthrough vet versoions? doing so is completely bizzare
  • potirondb16_ESO
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    Stop making everything vet trial difficulty we'd love to actually complete the dungeon not get trial elite weeded out and told get lost for not being at the cap of everything not everything has to be a trial of the gods

    The Truth is, one good DPS can easily beat two or three bad one, for some min maxer they can take 4 of them sometimes. Why, because they no longer run v14 gear, they keep gear upgraded and gather information about their class while some player don't.

    Is it normal that this is happening.. Technicly yes ! Is it normal that for those people veteran dungeon seemed easy. Yes too, were those guys in that situation... nan. I was personnally hoping for a DLC level Vault of Madness and maybe some at CoA difficulty. Something as

    First quest giver : 11 Pledges
    Second quest giver : 11 pledges
    Third quest giver : 6 or maybe more ?

    The fact that only 4 dungeon fall into the last end-game part of the dungeon list with 17 new-one is IMO a shame. EDIT: Not even one had been put there !
    Edited by potirondb16_ESO on September 7, 2016 6:58PM
  • Rykmaar
    Rykmaar
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    This wouldn't be a problem if there was more progression-based content.
  • vladimilianoub17_ESO1
    vladimilianoub17_ESO1
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    Seriously all my RL gamer friends are old school gamers ( yeah those days where " X game studio please make the game easily boring" did not exists.You get the game as it was developed and thats it,suck the difficulty or quit and they were hard as hell (Contra,Lifeforce,Battletoads ect. anyone?)Those where the days of real skilled gamers. So even tho I want those guys to play ESO with me Im really holding myself from inviting them because at the moment they learn the game,which will be fast,and jump to the dungeon crawling they going to laugh at me for inviting them to a game game with no chellenge.Got my hopes up when i learned there going to be many more veteran dungeons so i though myself,there must be some very challenging new vets in that update like Vaults of Madness must be pretty hard.Now I hear this and my hopes go down again.Hell I should even quit so I can retain some dignity as a old gamer.
  • DHale
    DHale
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    This is a data decision. Most players are not min maxed. They acknowledged at PAX this last weekend that pre nerf COA, WFT, ICP were NOT being done by most players when it was the pledge. Even after the nerf it was still not being done as part of pledges it also was not being completed by those that were attempting it. They are not going to change the difficulty of a dungeon because 4 people or a 104 people thought it was too easy. if YOU want a challenge take your CP out of your own character or run 300 or 160 or zero. Knock yourself out.
    Sorcerna, proud beta sorc.
    RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases.
    Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Beacuse a 6 k shield is f ing useless.
    Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew.
    13 AD 2 DC. CP 1200 plus 15 level 50 toons.
    NA, PC, Vivec.
    #SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.
  • Osteos
    Osteos
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    You shouldn't have to take out your champion pts or go in naked for a dungeon to be difficult. That idea is just absurd. These are supposed to be vet level version of the dungeons. They are not.
    DAGGERFALL COVENANT
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  • DHale
    DHale
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    Osteos wrote: »
    You shouldn't have to take out your champion pts or go in naked for a dungeon to be difficult. That idea is just absurd. These are supposed to be vet level version of the dungeons. They are not.

    It's absurd that they would change a dungeon to make it more difficult when a tiny fraction of the population is doing the dungeon and an even smaller number is completing it. I can do icp with my guildies in about 45 minutes and I once logged off after 7 hours and just over 70 wipes with pugglies. There are a wide variety of players at varying skill levels and most people who grind up characters don't seem to know class or game mechanics. But again opinion matter not and they are going to adjust difficulty using data which is objective, repeatable, and measurable.
    Sorcerna, proud beta sorc.
    RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases.
    Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Beacuse a 6 k shield is f ing useless.
    Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew.
    13 AD 2 DC. CP 1200 plus 15 level 50 toons.
    NA, PC, Vivec.
    #SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.
  • code65536
    code65536
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    DHale wrote: »
    Osteos wrote: »
    You shouldn't have to take out your champion pts or go in naked for a dungeon to be difficult. That idea is just absurd. These are supposed to be vet level version of the dungeons. They are not.

    It's absurd that they would change a dungeon to make it more difficult when a tiny fraction of the population is doing the dungeon and an even smaller number is completing it. I can do icp with my guildies in about 45 minutes and I once logged off after 7 hours and just over 70 wipes with pugglies. There are a wide variety of players at varying skill levels and most people who grind up characters don't seem to know class or game mechanics. But again opinion matter not and they are going to adjust difficulty using data which is objective, repeatable, and measurable.

    I feel like a broken record here: Stop turning your nose up at Normal.

    In the past, Normal was either not an option (e.g., CoA sequel was available only in Vet, with no Normal version available if all you wanted was an easy pledge, the skill point, or the story) or was severely gimped in terms of rewards (e.g., nICP/nWGT dropping VR15 gear).

    Who exactly are these people who can't complete Vet, but are too good to stoop to the level of Normal? This isn't vMA or vet trials where there is a huge gulf between Normal and Vet (and no, I don't want that wide of a gap for these dungeon). On the PTS, Vet versions of the Story 1 dungeons are barely any harder than their Normal counterparts on Live. We're asking for the difficulty to be buffed up a bit so that there is a more meaningful distinction between Normal and Vet.
    Edited by code65536 on September 8, 2016 8:28AM
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  • DHale
    DHale
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    I feel like a broken record here: Stop turning your nose up at Normal.

    In the past, Normal was either not an option (e.g., CoA sequel was available only in Vet, with no Normal version available if all you wanted was an easy pledge, the skill point, or the story) or was severely gimped in terms of rewards (e.g., nICP/nWGT dropping VR15 gear).

    Who exactly are these people who can't complete Vet, but are too good to stoop to the level of Normal? This isn't vMA or vet trials where there is a huge gulf between Normal and Vet (and no, I don't want that wide of a different for these dungeon). On the PTS, Vet versions of the Story 1 dungeons are barely any harder than their Normal counterparts on Live. We're asking for the difficulty to be buffed up a bit so that there is a more meaningful distinction between Normal and Vet.[/quote]

    No one is turning their nose up at normal and if I need undaunted or the skill point I will certainly do it. I think we are on the same page in that respect. Truth be told I have soloed every normal dungeon so there is that. When I want a challenge I make the challenge for me. For most vet dungeon I tank or heal but many dps are just not experienced (skilled or geared) enough to put out icp and wgt and cos and Mazzatun levels of dps. People want the helms and shoulders I want the helms and shoulders too. That said, I am not going to spend three hours in a dungeon that is not my idea of fun.

    I know people who have two manned wgt and ICP. I have three manned a lot of vet dungeons too but would not attempt to three man wgt or cos. There are lots of ways to make the content more challenging if you want to. What I won't do is support changing the difficulty to support a small number of players when people cannot get helms on normal dungeons. Not even taking into consideration I had to run coh 80 plus times to get nerianeth helm, city of ash 50 plus to get Skoria and dark shade 100 plus to get engine guardian. Luckily it is not up to me and no amount or forum posting will change the data of how many run the various dungeons, how many take the quest, how many complete the various dungeons. What bosses kill people the most etc...

    Sorcerna, proud beta sorc.
    RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases.
    Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Beacuse a 6 k shield is f ing useless.
    Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew.
    13 AD 2 DC. CP 1200 plus 15 level 50 toons.
    NA, PC, Vivec.
    #SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.
  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    I think some people don't understand the new system ZOS implements for those dungeons.
    All dungeons (part 1 and part 2) get a normal and a veteran version with the same loot (blue on normal, purple on veteran), story, skillpoint and so on. So where is the reason that veteran should cater to everyone?
    Normal should be doable for all people, but veterean (especially hardmode) should be for veterans (EXPERIENCED players)....not for new players with bad build and playstyle....

    In other words: IF vet-mode is easy and doable for everyone, why does something like normal-mode even exist?
    Edited by Destruent on September 8, 2016 8:16AM
    Noobplar
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