NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

Stop making everything vet trial difficulty we'd love to actually complete the dungeon not get trial elite weeded out and told get lost for not being at the cap of everything not everything has to be a trial of the gods

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Dungeons are fine.
Leave themas they be... the game should be scaled for the wide mass of players not for some <1% players wich insane min/max builds.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I disagree especially if you're basing if off a group of 531's.

Vet difficulty should be based off and capped on a CP160 character.

Sorry but if you want hard, reset your CP down cause I'm not a fan of setting difficulties so that only min/max can complete group content.

VMSA is for you guys....no changes necessary IMO it's in a good spot for group content.

You're not paying attention. Go back and read Bizz's posts and my posts.

We were a 3-man group, with only 1 person at CP cap.
We're not elite players (2 of the 3 of us have never successfully completed VMSA, and only 1 of us does trials).
We were screwing around and not really paying attention or taking things seriously.
We didn't even have our bars set up properly (I was the only DPS and I didn't have an execute on either bar, I had an unleveled detsro staff ultimate slotted instead of the much more effective ultimate I usually use, I didn't have my skills in the places where they usually are so I was often accidentally using the wrong skills - heck I was barely ever even attempting to do any weaving).
Our healer wasn't really doing any healing.
We were almost constantly standing in the red (or at least I was and the tank was - I didn't notice if Bizz was) because we were being lazy and not paying attention, and it wasn't really a threat (even with the healer not really healing).
For half the dungeon Bizz didn't have a food buff.
We only had 2 deaths the entire dungeon, and those were in the last boss fight after activating the scroll for hard mode, and only because we were paying more attention to Twitch chat than the dungeon.

If it was only people who had tried the dungeons in groups of 4 people at CP cap who were saying it was too easy, then I might be skeptical about whether they are too easy. There were only 3 of us. 3 absolutely not min-maxed elite players. Who were screwing around and not really paying attention. And it was a cake walk. It just took a long time because we didn't have as much DPS as a group of 4 would have.

I read it. Dungeons are all set so that 3 ppl can do them.

No they aren't. That's complete *** that you've been pushing forever, despite it having always been completely false. Group dungeons are all set to be done by 4 people. Period. The fact that this is so easily done by 3 people who are absolutely not elite, and who really weren't paying attention is an indication that it's way too easy for vet mode. If it could only be easily done by a group of 4 (like all group dungeons are supposed to be done by, despite your continual and ridiculous insistence that they're supposed to be doable by 3 average players) who were at cap, then it wouldn't be too easy.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

If you have 350+ CPs it should feel easy especially if you know all the mechanics.

What mechanics? We didn't pay any attention to any mechanics, we just derped around. I'm far from an elite DPS - it's the role I do the least. Bizz wasn't even really bothering to heal.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's actually not easy for everyone whixh is why if you notice month by month the old vet versions of dungeons are made more doable.

The only way I could see it not being easy for anyone is if they find the original non-vet dungeons challenging. And if they find the original non-vet dungeons challenging then the only additional challenge they'll see in these new "vet" versions of them is that everything has more health.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You just don't take account that you're constantly getting better and have more utility and are more effective.

That's how it should work as you progress but do not ask for regular stuff to be hard when you can jump into trials and vet MSA to get the difficulty you want here.

Dungeons should not equate to trial and MSA difficulty.

Guess what, I don't do vet MSA or trials. If I put my mind to it and practiced a bunch, I could probably complete vMSA, but it would be a major challenge for me. I've done trials exactly twice, and both times I got carried by better, more experienced players. Unless I'm in a group of significantly better players than me, I find the vet versions of the DLC dungeons, and even of City of Ash, very challenging, and I expect that if I'm going to complete them successfully it won't be quick, and there will be multiple wipes.

If Crypt of Hearts 1 is anything to go by, the new "vet" difficulties for the old normal-mode dungeons are significantly easier than the non-vet difficulties of the DLC dungeons, and significantly easier than every single original vet dungeon.

Nobody's asking for them to be on the level of vMSA or trials, or of the vet versions of the DLC dungeons. Being at least close to the difficulty of the easier original vet dungeons would be just fine by me. I'm not even asking for them to be quite as difficult as the original vet dungeons! Being one step below them would be OK with me. These are basically the same difficulty as normal mode.

The way it should work is that the normal mode of the original dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for newer players who don't have much group dungeon experience. When they get to a point where those aren't very challenging anymore, then the vet mode of those same dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for those players. That's not what I'm seeing here.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's not new content so if you want it to be hard for yourself or for the experienced remove your CP points. It's that simple.

If that's the solution, ZOS needs a way to toggle CP on and off - I need my CP for vet trials and PvP and I'm not going to spend gold to 'clear' my CPs every time I jump between PvE, trials and PvP.

I love that UrQuan is totally trashing me on what a terrible healer I was. Hah. It's okay though because it was really really true. On the last boss at one point our tank stood and did NOTHING just to see how long it would take for his health to even be a concern. I only had one heal (only on 1 bar) and had no idea (or cared) what I was doing.

For reference to folks. I couldn't do vet ICP or vet WGT when they came out. It was too frustrating for me. That's when I was actually focused and not derping around.

I honestly had to TRY in the normal Hists dungeons, with my bar set up properly.

I still struggle and really have to try in normal maelstrom arena.

This is not a matter of "only elite should do vet dungeons". They really really are just not difficult enough. I realize they can't make a ton of new mechanics in a month, but I really think they should at least do a bit more damage. Right now it just takes longer because the health pool is so big.

MissBizz wrote: »

I love that UrQuan is totally trashing me on what a terrible healer I was. Hah. It's okay though because it was really really true. On the last boss at one point our tank stood and did NOTHING just to see how long it would take for his health to even be a concern. I only had one heal (only on 1 bar) and had no idea (or cared) what I was doing.

lol I'm not saying you're a terrible healer... I'm saying you were barely healing in that dungeon. And considering you were barely doing any healing, and we only had 2 deaths, and those were only because we weren't paying any attention to what we were doing... There was barely any healing needed. I mean, the incoming damage from all sources was what I would expect in an easy non-vet dungeon.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I disagree especially if you're basing if off a group of 531's.

Vet difficulty should be based off and capped on a CP160 character.

Sorry but if you want hard, reset your CP down cause I'm not a fan of setting difficulties so that only min/max can complete group content.

VMSA is for you guys....no changes necessary IMO it's in a good spot for group content.

I would argue that the 160 gear requirement is not the same as setting the difficulty to Veteran Mode.

Normal, absolutely, cap it at what the gear cap is, raise it as needed.

Veteran...double it.

Veteran hardmode add another 100 or so.

All the need to do to fix this is add a difficulty slider to the vet dungeons from what it is now to extremely hard(almost impossible). Then adjust the loot table accordingly. The harder you set the dungeon level the better chance you have at getting the better traits for gear and monster helms, and If you do the dungeons as they are now then you get a chance at the whole loot table. problem solved!

I knew I could not trust the Undaunted chest categorization.

When I saw original veteran dungeons are lumped into Maj's chest (the smallest, used to be bronze key), new veteran dungeons were lumped into Glirion's chest (medium sized, used to be silver key), and the DLC dungeons got a new NPC and are opened in the largest chest (formerly gold key), I assumed we are getting more of vCoA.

NOPE.

Hell, even vCoA can be soloed live, but at least it presents some challenge to unprepared players, and is sure as hell fun to do...

I haven't been doing pledges regularly in a looooong time, I hate myself deeply for not helping out guildies when they need a tank for gold, but I just CBA to run those boring easy-mode-sithis-take-my-life-please dungeons.
Thought OT would finally get me hyped for pledges again.

Guess it's go get the achievements and get out.

Nifty2g wrote: »

you are all forgetting what these dungeons are meant for

It helps add difficulty and a learning curve upwards to veteran modes, these dungeons are not meant to be the hardest things ever

but be happy, this allows future dungeons to have a harder veteran

Actually, if there was to be a learning curve, they should be somewhere in between old veteran and DLC veteran difficulty.

Which means they should include some basic mechanics along with some unique mechanics f.e. on last bosses.

You know, to prepare players for the mechanic intensive DLC dungeons.

Heck, even old vet Fungal's first boss is very mechanical for new players, how are the new vet dungeons an upgrade to that?

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Dungeons are group activity by design. That means it needs to be doable by most players. Sure, you can all compare peen sizes and say how "solo'able" content is to players (vast majority) who struggle even in full groups, but at the end of the day a centipede can only go as fast as its slowest leg.

If the game is too easy for you, wear less OP gear. Easy. Its not hard to scale difficulty yourself, especially at end game.

Normal dungeons and veteran dungeons award you with the same Undaunted Key.
Unless you activate the Hard Mode last boss in the veteran dungeon.

What is the point in having two difficulties if both of them will be catered to "the slowest leg"?

The problem is... people want everything dumbed down to a point where veteran players won't do dungeons anymore.

Then when they can't find a group for "veteran" dungeons, they will put all the blame to the malfunctioning Grouping Tool.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Avenias wrote: »

If you find the Vet dungeons are too easy, take off ur clothes and try again.
One Tamriel update is meant for New players only who needs time to adjust, it has nothing to do with existing players, so asking ZOS to make content for existing players will not work. Just be glad they are actually doing something, the bar is already rock bottom.

What is it with you people? So the only way to create a challenge in eso END GAME content is to take off all of your armor and CP? Do you really expect me to believe that a new player who just made it to cp160 doesn't have at least purple cp150 gear that is appropriate for his/her role?

Don't get me wrong, I've seen a healer wearing an unenchanted blue tank set and basically no accessories. He had 350CP, 19k magicka, and 1500 spell damage and his healing springs hit for about 1k on a crit and he could only cast them for about 15 seconds before running out of magicka... and we were doing vICP last week.

But you know what? It's okay to FAIL at something.

When I first started playing this game on my sorc I would only run a dungeon as the healer because I couldn't figure out how to kill anything quickly, but I knew I could just cast heals strong enough to let others kill things for me. This worked up until I tried vWGT and my group couldn't get past the first boss. I failed and it sucked and I got frustrated, BUT I had something to gauge my skill level and progression on my character. I gained a little CP, made myself some new gear, improved my skill bar layout and PRACTICED. And this took me months of work and experimentation, talking to other players, watching other players, looking up builds and things on the internet... And now on the same sorc (Lilith Arujo, DC) I can tank/heal/dps vWGT and pretty much any other 4 man content, she has Flawless Conquerer 533k, completed vSO, vHRC, vAA, new vDSA. And all of this with CRAFTED GEAR + 1 molag kena helm + 3 willpower. Everything except the kena helm is READILY accessible to everyone.

And what annoys me about the above quote and the people who suggest unallocating CP to make things harder for elite players is that they completely invalidate all of the experience that I have with the content. Yeah, sure. If I went in naked with 0 CP and tried dpsing with puncture on a magicka build... it would be hard, but it would also be idiotic. The whole point of practicing and creating a build for a role and crafting/finding gear to supplement that role is to be effective at the role... and I have seen more than a few "CP531" players that were awful at any of the 3 roles.

So stop being a self righteous twit when looking at the "elite players" because at one time they had no idea what the hell they were doing either.

So much this! We all start out the same, elite players and casuals alike.

I guess having a half decent set and not standing in stupid can be called being an elite today.

From what i have seen and read, even trials like VMSA are "easy" and repeatable for high end builds where you know they mechanics of the challenge. A lot of it boils down to basically have you solved the tactical puzzle and prepared for it and if you did, then hey, its (practically) a walk in the park.

For me, when i look at difficulty of content, i look at it from the POV of players who do not know the "solutions" who are encountering the fights for the first time or second time or third time with the typical gear they would normally have, even if they do "know their roles" and play them well.

Why?

because if it takes more than two or three tries to "get a win" most folks will just move on. The ones that stay will solve the puzzle, no matter what it is and so they wont be challenged.

IMX

i would "expect" (gut feeling not necessarily based on ESO past performance) that NORMAL mode would be at this level of challenge FOR non-cap maybe even no-cp character groups in set gear but not by any means all golded maxed top tier super duper.

I would "expect" vet mode to be this level of challenge for even max-cp guys but again not all decked out in all gold minmax.

i would "expect" vet mode hard mode to be this challenge for max cp all gold minmax sets.

And i would expect it all to be much much much easier for those who knew the mechanics and puzzle solutions and preparations needed.