Magic_Doogies wrote: »I see a lot of shouting past each other in this thread and not really understanding where either side is coming from.
My opinion on the matter is this- I don't consider myself a casual player, but I also don't consider myself a min/maxxer either.
Since I started running higher tier dungeons like ICP and WGT I realized that not all veteran dungeons are created equal.
Veteran Fungal Grotto will NEVER be in the same league as Veteran ICP or Mazzatum.
As someone who started this game stumbling around with a templar with *** stats all over the place it's good to have easy veteran dungeons to ease you in to the much harder ones that lead to much better results. You wouldn't believe how many PUG groups I joined in as healer and watch as the team struggled to beat the mid boss lady on Veteran mode because it hasn't kicked in yet that it's more than just depleting a health sponge and ignoring fallen teammates.
I still to this day see PUGS struggle with getting past the huge Daedroth in City of Ash. That is still a section of the dungeon that literally makes or breaks a team.
The reality is- is that higher CP, and GOOD CP allocation means that vet dungeons that are hard are going to be 'easy' even though you are literally trying to make yourself wipe. Especially if you have good traits, armor, food, potions and enchantments to boot.
Telling high level players looking for a challenge in previously easy vet dungeons to take out your CP and do naked runs isn't the solution. Also, telling new players who casual players who don't have a lot of time on their hands to 'git gud' and shut up also doesn't solve anything either.
I think there is definitely criticism to be had if the 'hard' versions of bosses in Vet mode simply have higher HP. But also consider that there are some bosses where that CAN be an genuine challenge especially when the boss in question already has a very tiring mechanic to begin with.
Take Lord Warden in vICP. As a healer this dude is such a hassle to deal with. A lot of concentration on healing because it's AoE spam EVERYWHERE and DPS and tank have no choice BUT to move around the map to deal damage to him and avoid portals. Depending on the PUG/guild group there are sessions where I am THANKFUL that I didn't have to fight the dude any longer because I was starting to run out of resources.
Other fights like the final boss of vFG are useless as bigger health sponges. To me PERSONALLY because I already know the mechanics of the final boss down to a T and at this point it's like I'm on auto pilot.
In those instances I can see suggesting to Zos team to give a more unique challenge or twist to the final boss. Perhaps a mechanic they had plans to utilize on the boss but ultimately scrapped it.
That kind of change however takes time. Too much time for them to be able to implement by the time this next patch goes LIVE.
I think if we pitch this idea to the ZoS team in a mature, kind and understanding manner we can see it happening in a future update. I might not be the one after the upcoming update, but maybe 3 updates from now depending on what their priorities are.
But this screeching, yelling and slap fighting at each other isn't going to solve anything. And it certainly makes it very easy for a disgruntled staff member to simply speed scroll past when looking at forum feedback.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I didn't think I'd see sense in this thread. I am pleasently suprised.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Specifically the bit about fungal grotto not being in the same league. But the rest, I think is something people from either camp need to read.
Would I be opposed to the final bosses geting a tuneup? Possibly, probs not, but I gotta pug this crap day after day so that's where I'm coming from.
The challenging content you need a guild to run is geting it's own questgiver this update. This means it's not gonna interfere with the normal pugs so when you -get- hard content it'll likely be not watered down anymore because they dont have to for the gold pledges.
I dont think the vet vanilla dungeons need to be harder. I think that there's a place for everyone, here. And I think we need to stop trying to battle each other to the death like gladiators.
The learning curve would goyou are all forgetting what these dungeons are meant for
It helps add difficulty and a learning curve upwards to veteran modes, these dungeons are not meant to be the hardest things ever
but be happy, this allows future dungeons to have a harder veteran
Actually, if there was to be a learning curve, they should be somewhere in between old veteran and DLC veteran difficulty.
Which means they should include some basic mechanics along with some unique mechanics f.e. on last bosses.
You know, to prepare players for the mechanic intensive DLC dungeons.
Heck, even old vet Fungal's first boss is very mechanical for new players, how are the new vet dungeons an upgrade to that?
The learning curve would goyou are all forgetting what these dungeons are meant for
It helps add difficulty and a learning curve upwards to veteran modes, these dungeons are not meant to be the hardest things ever
but be happy, this allows future dungeons to have a harder veteran
Actually, if there was to be a learning curve, they should be somewhere in between old veteran and DLC veteran difficulty.
Which means they should include some basic mechanics along with some unique mechanics f.e. on last bosses.
You know, to prepare players for the mechanic intensive DLC dungeons.
Heck, even old vet Fungal's first boss is very mechanical for new players, how are the new vet dungeons an upgrade to that?
Normal - Normal Veteran
Veteran - Veteran Hardmode
DLC Normal
DLC Veteran - DLC Veteran Hardmode
Thats just common sense as to what ZOS are doing?
The way it should work is that the normal mode of the original dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for newer players who don't have much group dungeon experience. When they get to a point where those aren't very challenging anymore, then the vet mode of those same dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for those players. That's not what I'm seeing here.
@acw37162 Which of the "new" vet dungeons on PTS did you try and have problems with if you believe they are already difficult enough?
This is a visual representation of how I think the difficulty curve should look:
The big question is: what makes a dungeon hard?
Mechanics.
The Glirion veteran dungeons currently don't fit into the above chart, simply because they lack meaningful mechanics.
Making the boss have 30kk health does not make the fight challenging, it just makes the fight tedious.
These new veteran versions of dungeons are a perfect opportunity to fill the gap in difficulty we have from vanilla vet dungeon and DLC dungeon difficulty.
My suggestion would be to introduce a new, dungeon specific mechanic on the veteran Hard Mode of the last boss in each of those dungeons.
Also, make the regular mechanics (must block heavy attacks, must interrupt channels, don't stand in red etc.) meaningful throughout veteran Glirion dungeons.
F.e. a light armor damage dealer with 17k health should not be able to survive the first boss' heavy attack without blocking.
I dunno one shot level dmg on a light armor seems harsh one shot gimmicks kinda make fight lame I've seen tanks taunt and bosses say f*** that and one shot a healer instead of focusing on tank
Well, don't forget that I'm not exactly even close to being one of the "very top players" lol. I'd like to consider myself above average, but I'm still just a casual who plays a lot. On the other hand, @Nifty2g definitely is one of the very top players, and it sounds like he's asking for a similar progression of difficulty to what I'd like to see. Because, you know, that's what would be good for the game.newtinmpls wrote: »So this thread worries me, because I really don't think that the ... very top players ... have any real idea of how different they are now, then the used to be.
So I was very very happy to read this:The way it should work is that the normal mode of the original dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for newer players who don't have much group dungeon experience. When they get to a point where those aren't very challenging anymore, then the vet mode of those same dungeons should be a challenge (but doable) for those players. That's not what I'm seeing here.
I agree.
I also think that's a heck of a challenge.
Blackheart is probably the toughest of the original non-vet dungeons (with maybe Vaults of Madness coming in second), and it can give PUGs trouble already, so I can imagine that the difficulty of the new vet version of it might actually not need to be buffed. Just adding more health to Captain Blackheart would probably be enough to make that fight into a vet-level fight, because any group that's not well coordinated is going to have trouble with it - especially if they're relying heavily on one or two more experienced members. The longer that fight takes the more likely it is that a crucial party member will get turned into a skeleton at an inconvenient time.@acw37162 Which of the "new" vet dungeons on PTS did you try and have problems with if you believe they are already difficult enough?
Vet Blackheart, but I had more of problem getting disconnecting from test while in the dungeon and groups falling apart via disconnects then the dungeon itself.
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletterThis is a visual representation of how I think the difficulty curve should look:
The big question is: what makes a dungeon hard?
Mechanics.
The Glirion veteran dungeons currently don't fit into the above chart, simply because they lack meaningful mechanics.
Making the boss have 30kk health does not make the fight challenging, it just makes the fight tedious.
These new veteran versions of dungeons are a perfect opportunity to fill the gap in difficulty we have from vanilla vet dungeon and DLC dungeon difficulty.
My suggestion would be to introduce a new, dungeon specific mechanic on the veteran Hard Mode of the last boss in each of those dungeons.
Also, make the regular mechanics (must block heavy attacks, must interrupt channels, don't stand in red etc.) meaningful throughout veteran Glirion dungeons.
F.e. a light armor damage dealer with 17k health should not be able to survive the first boss' heavy attack without blocking.
Mettaricana wrote: »This is a visual representation of how I think the difficulty curve should look:
The big question is: what makes a dungeon hard?
Mechanics.
The Glirion veteran dungeons currently don't fit into the above chart, simply because they lack meaningful mechanics.
Making the boss have 30kk health does not make the fight challenging, it just makes the fight tedious.
These new veteran versions of dungeons are a perfect opportunity to fill the gap in difficulty we have from vanilla vet dungeon and DLC dungeon difficulty.
My suggestion would be to introduce a new, dungeon specific mechanic on the veteran Hard Mode of the last boss in each of those dungeons.
Also, make the regular mechanics (must block heavy attacks, must interrupt channels, don't stand in red etc.) meaningful throughout veteran Glirion dungeons.
F.e. a light armor damage dealer with 17k health should not be able to survive the first boss' heavy attack without blocking.
I dunno one shot level dmg on a light armor seems harsh one shot gimmicks kinda make fight lame I've seen tanks taunt and bosses say f*** that and one shot a healer instead of focusing on tank
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
If you find the Vet dungeons are too easy, take off ur clothes and try again.
One Tamriel update is meant for New players only who needs time to adjust, it has nothing to do with existing players, so asking ZOS to make content for existing players will not work. Just be glad they are actually doing something, the bar is already rock bottom.
Mettaricana wrote: »Stop making everything vet trial difficulty we'd love to actually complete the dungeon not get trial elite weeded out and told get lost for not being at the cap of everything not everything has to be a trial of the gods
You shouldn't have to take out your champion pts or go in naked for a dungeon to be difficult. That idea is just absurd. These are supposed to be vet level version of the dungeons. They are not.
You shouldn't have to take out your champion pts or go in naked for a dungeon to be difficult. That idea is just absurd. These are supposed to be vet level version of the dungeons. They are not.
It's absurd that they would change a dungeon to make it more difficult when a tiny fraction of the population is doing the dungeon and an even smaller number is completing it. I can do icp with my guildies in about 45 minutes and I once logged off after 7 hours and just over 70 wipes with pugglies. There are a wide variety of players at varying skill levels and most people who grind up characters don't seem to know class or game mechanics. But again opinion matter not and they are going to adjust difficulty using data which is objective, repeatable, and measurable.