New vet dungeons are too easy! Make them harder!

Swindy

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Avenias wrote: »

If you find the Vet dungeons are too easy, take off ur clothes and try again.
One Tamriel update is meant for New players only who needs time to adjust, it has nothing to do with existing players, so asking ZOS to make content for existing players will not work. Just be glad they are actually doing something, the bar is already rock bottom.

What is it with you people? So the only way to create a challenge in eso END GAME content is to take off all of your armor and CP? Do you really expect me to believe that a new player who just made it to cp160 doesn't have at least purple cp150 gear that is appropriate for his/her role?

Don't get me wrong, I've seen a healer wearing an unenchanted blue tank set and basically no accessories. He had 350CP, 19k magicka, and 1500 spell damage and his healing springs hit for about 1k on a crit and he could only cast them for about 15 seconds before running out of magicka... and we were doing vICP last week.

But you know what? It's okay to FAIL at something.

When I first started playing this game on my sorc I would only run a dungeon as the healer because I couldn't figure out how to kill anything quickly, but I knew I could just cast heals strong enough to let others kill things for me. This worked up until I tried vWGT and my group couldn't get past the first boss. I failed and it sucked and I got frustrated, BUT I had something to gauge my skill level and progression on my character. I gained a little CP, made myself some new gear, improved my skill bar layout and PRACTICED. And this took me months of work and experimentation, talking to other players, watching other players, looking up builds and things on the internet... And now on the same sorc (Lilith Arujo, DC) I can tank/heal/dps vWGT and pretty much any other 4 man content, she has Flawless Conquerer 533k, completed vSO, vHRC, vAA, new vDSA. And all of this with CRAFTED GEAR + 1 molag kena helm + 3 willpower. Everything except the kena helm is READILY accessible to everyone.

And what annoys me about the above quote and the people who suggest unallocating CP to make things harder for elite players is that they completely invalidate all of the experience that I have with the content. Yeah, sure. If I went in naked with 0 CP and tried dpsing with puncture on a magicka build... it would be hard, but it would also be idiotic. The whole point of practicing and creating a build for a role and crafting/finding gear to supplement that role is to be effective at the role... and I have seen more than a few "CP531" players that were awful at any of the 3 roles.

So stop being a self righteous twit when looking at the "elite players" because at one time they had no idea what the hell they were doing either.

After my first vICP on a stamblade, utterly clueless as it was my first ever dungeon of any description, I expected the tank & healer whom I'd only just met to de-friend me (late last year). I remember at least 25 deaths (mine alone I'm speaking here). Yes I had all gold V14-16 gear (I forget which we had back then).
I...sucked...bad.
9-11 months on my Templar solos most of the Silver keys each day, and with either 1 or 2 other Templars (the guys I let down in vICP), we no death the Gold keys. (On XBox so no PTS.)
vICP & vWGT we take 4 Templars.

I have latency so bad Zos support recommended in February (after measuring it between 350 & 3250 at their end) I give up the game as it's unplayable with my latency...their exact words.

No-one should be able to walk into a Vet dungeon and 2-3 man content built as an end game 4 man challenge.
No-one should get to CP160 (& yes I'm about CP 685) in purple gear and expect to immediately 4 man end game Vet mode content. If you can't do it yet, that should be the motivation to grow your toon and your skills.

I farmed and grinded and asked and practiced and failed and traded and asked more and failed more and farmed more...all to get the gold to craft & buy (Guardian infused just wouldn't drop) my own gear to build my end game capabilities.

I still suck, but I suck less than I did, and now most end game content is just too easy even for me.

Vet mode should be just that...for Veterans, as a challenge, damn hard, not just 4-5 million HP to spam grind a boss to death.
Normal exists for a valid reason, so experienced (certainly not elite) end game players (I've about 5,000 hours in game on XBox alone) have challenges, or we will go play something else to find new challenges.

Bobby_V_Rockit

But I want my prizes now, why should I struggle to play the game because a few demi gods think its easy? Perhaps its just a question of you being awesome at content intended for the common man...

Dubhliam

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

But I want my prizes now, why should I struggle to play the game because a few demi gods think its easy? Perhaps its just a question of you being awesome at content intended for the common man...

Instant gratification.
SMH.
There are only a handful of things you need to work for, and Monster masks are one of them.
Heck, even those you can buy in Cyrodiil with gold.
And normal version dungeons will drop the same key as veteran versions, so you will have the exact same chance for a shoulder.

So why do you want veteran dungeons catered to you?
Just accept you are not a veteran player, go buy the mask in Cyrodiil and play normal mode to your heart's delight.

Swindy

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

But I want my prizes now, why should I struggle to play the game because a few demi gods think its easy? Perhaps its just a question of you being awesome at content intended for the common man...

I understand your desires, but I disagree.
That's what an MMO RPG is all about...character & player progression.
Grinding & learning & farming take time, lots...of...time...to get to the point of having the skills & gear to compete at the highest level of content.
It's really as simple as that...

UrbanMonk

WhiteMage wrote: »

For everyone saying the new vet modes are too easy, could you please remove all your cp and report how you feel the difficulty changes?

Why should they do that? They worked hard for their CP and they have a right to use them. In real time on live you'd not be removing your CP and then do the content. if it's easy for them then it's easy. If someone else finds it hard becuase of not enough CP then dont blame those who have CP but move ur butt and get some more.

Destruent

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

For everyone saying the new vet modes are too easy, could you please remove all your cp and report how you feel the difficulty changes?

Why should they do that? They worked hard for their CP and they have a right to use them. In real time on live you'd not be removing your CP and then do the content. if it's easy for them then it's easy. If someone else finds it hard becuase of not enough CP then dont blame those who have CP but move ur butt and get some more.

Or just do normal...that's what normal-mode will be made for...

Asardes

Dungeons like Crypt of Hearts II and Banished Cells II are hard now because DDs accidentally hit the adds while burning the boss and they die or burn the boss so fast they don't even have time to spawn ruining the gold pledge. Ran the latter a couple of days with a stamina sorcerer DD and that hurricane was dangerously close to the adds even when taking them to a corner of the room. Even I as tank have to taunt very sparingly, refrain from boosting my stamina - I run all DLC pledges without any buff (health just under 20K) and still don't die - and replace spiked armor with immovable brute because they even die from the reflected damage. So, paradoxically they are hard because some enemies have too little health, not too much.

I was one of the people who voted for increasing the difficulty of the veteran mode close to that of the DLC dungeons in the poll cited above. I even mentioned the fact that enemy health and damage are not enough themselves to make the dungeon harder and they also needed to add new and more challenging mechanics. And now I read that they did neither, in fact they created an easy mode for the old veteran dungeons, by gimping them even further. I can consistently beat most of them with randoms from zone chat and even grouping tool in less than 20 minutes. With full CP experienced group it's usually under 15. So the average player is not that bad as ZoS assumes. For whom they are revamping this content actually?

Destruent

Asardes wrote: »

Dungeons like Crypt of Hearts II and Banished Cells II are hard now because DDs accidentally hit the adds while burning the boss and they die ruining the gold pledge or burn the boss so fast they don't even have time to spawn. Even I as tank have to taunt very sparingly, refrain from boosting my stamina - I run all DLC pledges without any buff and still don't die - and replace spiked armor with immovable brute because they even die from the reflected damage. So, paradoxically they are hard because some enemies have too little health, not too much.

tank them far awy from the boss? tbh this wasn't an issue when we did vCoH/2 on PTS.

Riga_Mortis

I'm getting the notion that this game will soon be going FTP, and thats why dungeons are where there at on PTS.
Might be a massive influx of totally new players very soon, but just a theory.

Asardes

Well. in theory it's OK, and I usually manage to kite them fast from the boss - taunt and move away. But in practice most people are not that disciplined. For example on Nerien'eth they didn't stop the DPS as the adds spawned - they spawn in the same place as the boss - until I got them far enough, one of them got a DoT on it, then a Skoria proc on both - they were moving close together - and died. Had to wipe and try again. And the little green balls from Velidreth are just as annoying. Almost lost one of the Daedroths in Banished Cells to a ball, missed him by inches. And was coming from the middle of the room, where the stamina sorcerer was. I explain in chat to the DDs not to use any AoE, I even begged them to unequip gear that procs randomly. The problem was present before, but has gotten worse since the last update. They probably decreased the health of all mobs across the board already, because 10 CP don't make much of a difference. The add mechanic was initially intended to harass players doing dungeons, not to place porcelain statuettes across the room, but because of CP creep it has ended up doing the latter. It's time to fix that.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Well, paint me green and call me Gumbi, I personally think two things.

1) veteran dungeons should have a level requirement for entry. I.e. No cp14 people even bothering with high end 4.
2) no dual roles. I have had more bad experiences than good with the role multivitamin. They do a little of both but not enough of either.

Dubhliam

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Well, paint me green and call me Gumbi, I personally think two things.

1) veteran dungeons should have a level requirement for entry. I.e. No cp14 people even bothering with high end 4.
2) no dual roles. I have had more bad experiences than good with the role multivitamin. They do a little of both but not enough of either.

The heal/tank combo is a great one. A properly geared templar can do both.
He won't be able to stack mobs as effectively as a mag DK tank, but hey... that is what an extra DD is here for. To kill adds faster. Besides, most tanks have stamina builds anyway so they can't spam Chains.
Or worse. They are simply a tanky stam DD with Puncture slotted.

code65536

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

no dual roles

Good players can do dual roles just fine. Just a week or two ago, I was in a vWGT pledge with a Templar who heal-tanked it. It was a speed run with just one death due to a stupid error by me. Granted, dual roles don't work very well in the hands of an inexperienced player, esp. one who just marks multiple roles for the sake of expediency. But then again, any role could be mishandled by an inexperienced player.

Asardes

Off-heal tank is actually very viable on DK because of the ingenous shields that both grant bonus to healing and protect the allies around. Surprisingly, even on stamina build. When running dungeons with low level players I always ask them to stick close to me in boss fights. I slot both ingenous shields and vigor, get stamina back trough heavy attacks and ultimate activation, then hit ingenous and vigor. My stamina regeneration is 2.6K with orsinium blue food and I block only about 1/3 of the time so it only gets reduced by 1/3, average is still 1.7K. If I have enough stamina available and I see the health bars get low on the DDs I even dump it as vigor in normal trials. Got trials healer achievement halfway trough my 2nd nSO. I'm only half way to tremendous healer though

potirondb16_ESO

acw37162 wrote: »

531 or 561

Maxed out gear

Know what your doing

Yeah, 80 % of the community is not you.

Glad you crushed it though, this means when the random dungeon finder works I might be able to get a monster helm, maybe

Also remember that cannot read a tooltip, cannot surf on the web and can't do a 3 skill rotation is not 100% of the population either !

To be honnest, I'm glad they add more dungeon for those who fall into that category. It's nice for them and if it means they get a shot at a monster helm which was sometime hard... I'm all for that. Usually those guys care more about the look of their characther that their efficiency.

But to consider them as the only people that matter when they are creating new dungeon is also an issue which is normal to adress since MMO are progression base, your skill being expected to improve overtime.

What the experienced community have been asking for a while is to add a new difficulty level that would complete the overall game game progression. As far as for today, they havent receive any information that their cause is of any importance.

As far as what our current experience is when running some of those hard dungeon from back in the days ex: CoH vet, nowaday a lot of team combination can down the boss to 40% before any adds start spawning... This does contrast with the 2 to 3 waves of adds we use to kill back in the days.

Transairion

I don't have any issue with the "new" (well, old but boosted stats) dungeons being easy, simply because it means more people will complete them and more people will be running pledges as a result.

The DLC dungeons are hard. Veteran ICP itself breaks my Sorceror Pet-build outright (they literally desummon). And it's okay to have hard things, but they're only 4 dungeons. The other dungeons number into the dozen/s, and they're base game content. If they all as hard as the DLC dungeons, Pledge participation will fall off the map and there'll be no point. DLC Pledge days are already a no-man's land people actively avoid, and I'd say it's a safe bet the majority of pledge-takers don't actually do them: simply because there's hard enough getting 4 random people together, even if they're good at their roles will struggle unless they've already done it heaps of times before.

We don't need base game content to be hard, we need it to be doable without it being a struggle for the base game players. While I'm glad you found it face-roll easy, I'm going to hazard a guess if they shifted it to live right now not every group would find it as face-roll easy as you did. I mean there are people who find the Vet Hist Dungeons face-roll easy too.


Compare what you're asking to something SWTOR did: on PTS they invited several top-tier raiding guilds to do the content, who of course found it faceroll easy and successfully got the content buffed to their liking.

The end result when the patch hit? Normal Mode was so hard 90% of the playerbase couldn't finish it, and Hard Mode only the guilds that tested it on the PTS even bothered to attempt it. The feedback resulted in a horrible experience and months of new content being utterly wasted, until nerf after nerf finally made it doable by a lot of players.

We don't want that here at all. We want content most of us can actually do, not tailor-made for the 1% best players.


In short: "New" Vet dungeons being easy is ok, because then most of the playerbase will be able to finish it. Making them too hard kills Pledge participation.

Destruent

Transairion wrote: »

In short: "New" Vet dungeons being easy is ok, because then most of the playerbase will be able to finish it. Making them too hard kills Pledge participation.

You can do normal mode for same reward and lower difficulty....where's the problem?

Transairion

You can do normal mode for same reward and lower difficulty....where's the problem?

That's like saying Veteran Maw of Lorkjaw and Normal Maw of Lorkjaw "give the same reward". It's not at all true.

Normal Mode Pledges in Update 12 will give, at max, 3 keys per day (that's with DLC). 0% chance at Monster Helms. So that's 3 Monster Shoulders per day, that you'll never be able to use without doing Vet or getting lucky with the Golden Vendor.

Veteran Mode Pledges will give, at max, 6 keys per day (again, DLC). 100% chance at Monster Helm per dungeon, so you're getting 3 Monster Helms for sure. Keys will be uniform and give 100% Monster Shoulder drop as well, so that's 6 shoulders as well. Daily.

By the way, only Hard Mode rewards 2 keys rather than one: doing Veteran Cradle of Shadows, but no HM still will only give a single key. But you will get a helm, so that's the only incentive to not just do normal at that point.


To be honest, some of the existing Veteran Dungeons are already "easy": finding a group that struggles with Spindleclutch or Wayrest is hard these days. So it's not like "easy" Vet Dungeons will be anything new, either. It really isn't a problem, especially since this is the base game content we're talking about. The updated dungeons are NOT DLC.

Destruent

Transairion wrote: »

You can do normal mode for same reward and lower difficulty....where's the problem?

That's like saying Veteran Maw of Lorkjaw and Normal Maw of Lorkjaw "give the same reward". It's not at all true.

Normal Mode Pledges in Update 12 will give, at max, 3 keys per day (that's with DLC). 0% chance at Monster Helms. So that's 3 Monster Shoulders per day, that you'll never be able to use without doing Vet or getting lucky with the Golden Vendor.

You can get monsterhelmets from normal dungeons...atleast you can from the SotH-Dungeons.

oh and btw. the only difference between normal and vetMoL is goldjewelry instead of purple...which is like 300...400 extra-Stats....AMAZING!!!

Osteos

No the updated dungeons are not dlc and I haven't seen a single post saying that they are too easy asking them to be equivalent to ICP when it launched. What people are saying, or to speak just for myself, is that Vet Vault of Madness should at least be harder then normal Vault of Madness and right now it isn't.

Transairion

Destruent wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

You can do normal mode for same reward and lower difficulty....where's the problem?

That's like saying Veteran Maw of Lorkjaw and Normal Maw of Lorkjaw "give the same reward". It's not at all true.

Normal Mode Pledges in Update 12 will give, at max, 3 keys per day (that's with DLC). 0% chance at Monster Helms. So that's 3 Monster Shoulders per day, that you'll never be able to use without doing Vet or getting lucky with the Golden Vendor.

You can get monsterhelmets from normal dungeons...atleast you can from the SotH-Dungeons.

oh and btw. the only difference between normal and vetMoL is goldjewelry instead of purple...which is like 300...400 extra-Stats....AMAZING!!!

Shadow of the Hist dungeons dropping helms on normal mode seems to be an outlier, since it's not true for any of the others: I have no clue if they intend normal to have a helm chance in Update 12 though, haven't seen any mention of it.

Veteran Trials, however, differ from normal because their "rare gear" drops with a much higher chance than in normal mode: say AA for example, you'll get Aether pieces rarely on Normal Mode. On Hard Mode, you get so much Aether it's basically vendor trash after completing your set. Gold jewelry is also super valuable since there's only a few sources, and what girl doesn't love some gold bling?!

Asardes

TBH sorcerer pet builds suck in most PvE group settings for multiple reasons: dying easily, kiting mobs that would stay in the AoE (there is no mass taunt), and obscuring boss as it winds down a heavy attack. You can get away with them in the simplest of group dungeons, like the ones in 1st and 2nd alliance zone, on normal mode. But they are a complete no-no for vet dungeons, especially ICP. They probably die if Ibomez or his atronachs even fart at them. I won't even contemplate how they will obscure portals at the Planar Inhibitor fight from VWGT. They are niche in PvP as well. Pets are mostly good for soloing in PvE areas at low level. Endgame they are useless and a hindrance for the rest of the group.

Dubhliam

Transairion wrote: »

...
We don't need base game content to be hard, we need it to be doable without it being a struggle for the base game players.
...

What we need is a difficulty curve.
Meaning the new dungeons should be made to prepare players for hard DLC dungeons.
Not as hard as DLC veteran dungeons, yet not as easy as base game veteran dungeons.

This is also quite intuitive since the new veteran dungeons are lumped along with CoA and CoH.
Glirion gives the pledges, not Maj and the shoulders are opened in the former silver chest.

From left to right:
former silver chest (new vet dungeons plus CoA and CoH)
former gold chest (DLC dungeons)
former bronze chest (old vet dungeons minus CoA and CoH)

Destruent

Transairion wrote: »

Veteran Trials, however, differ from normal because their "rare gear" drops with a much higher chance than in normal mode: say AA for example, you'll get Aether pieces rarely on Normal Mode. On Hard Mode, you get so much Aether it's basically vendor trash after completing your set. Gold jewelry is also super valuable since there's only a few sources, and what girl doesn't love some gold bling?!

If you care about 300...500 (i think it's even less than 200 tbh) more magicka (while already sitting at ~40k+) you should be able to do hardest content....
Droprates are different, but you get the same gear.
Btw. did anyone do the nomal-dungeons on PTS to see if they drop monster helmets?

Minno

If a monster helm is awarded, the vet version should be challenging to match the reward.

That level of challenge should be scaled to a loose 4 man team. Normal mode for 0-160 CP and hard mode for 160-cap.

They should help the new players learn the game but also give somewhat of a challenge to help new players get ready for trials.

UrQuan

Transairion wrote: »

To be honest, some of the existing Veteran Dungeons are already "easy": finding a group that struggles with Spindleclutch or Wayrest is hard these days. So it's not like "easy" Vet Dungeons will be anything new, either. It really isn't a problem, especially since this is the base game content we're talking about. The updated dungeons are NOT DLC.

Except based on my experience so far on PTS the new "vet" dungeons are much much easier than Spindleclutch II or Wayrest II. I imagine a couple of them aren't, but what I've done so far definitely is. Someone who does one of the new vet versions of an original part I dungeon is going to be in for a really rude awakening if they then try to do Wayrest II. And Wayrest II is probably the easiest of all of the vet dungeons we have currently.

If the new vet versions of part I dungeons were on the same difficulty level as Wayrest II then I wouldn't have an issue with them. Even if they were just a bit easier than Wayrest II. But they're a lot easier. Again, though, there may be exceptions to that. I wouldn't be surprised if the vet versions of Blackheart Haven, Selene's Web, Blessed Crucible, and Vaults of Madness are actually OK as far as the difficulty goes, but I haven't tried those ones on PTS so I can't be sure.

Drummerx04

When I want a challenge, I stick out veteran pledges with really bad groups. I recall a vet Banished run where I tanked on my sorc. On the daedroth boss while standing still in the flames, I dealt around 80% of the damage while wearing armor master with nothing but Liquid lightning, puncture, and boundless storm (~4k dps). At the final boss, I wound up tanking something like 7 daedroths before the were dying to my passive AOE.

No need to remove my CP. Other players are always there to boost the difficulty for me.

Asardes

In Spindleclutch the noobs will wipe to the ghost boss red circle and forget to block at the vampire so again wipe. They will "play the way they want"

Volrion

MaddPowered wrote: »

I have played through all the new vet dungeons, normal vets and hard modes and i find that they are all too easy! Please make a decision to boost the difficulty.

They're fine.

If I want to grind them, I get my crew together and we smash them out.

If you want a challenge, try two-manning them or just LFG with pugs. (lol)

From what I've seen playing in a variety of group set-ups, for the average player they're right where they need to be IMO.

Darlon

Destruent wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

You can do normal mode for same reward and lower difficulty....where's the problem?

That's like saying Veteran Maw of Lorkjaw and Normal Maw of Lorkjaw "give the same reward". It's not at all true.

Normal Mode Pledges in Update 12 will give, at max, 3 keys per day (that's with DLC). 0% chance at Monster Helms. So that's 3 Monster Shoulders per day, that you'll never be able to use without doing Vet or getting lucky with the Golden Vendor.

You can get monsterhelmets from normal dungeons...atleast you can from the SotH-Dungeons.

oh and btw. the only difference between normal and vetMoL is goldjewelry instead of purple...which is like 300...400 extra-Stats....AMAZING!!!

At the PAX panel, the devs stated that there won't be any monster helmets dropping from normal modes.
Not sure if they will apply this also to the SotH dungeons, but it seems only logical to do so.

Rewards are:

Normal: 1 key
Veteran: 1 key + guaranteed monster helmet
Veteran (hard mode): 2 keys + guaranteed monster helmet