New vet dungeons are too easy! Make them harder!

Destruent

Darlon wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

You can do normal mode for same reward and lower difficulty....where's the problem?

That's like saying Veteran Maw of Lorkjaw and Normal Maw of Lorkjaw "give the same reward". It's not at all true.

Normal Mode Pledges in Update 12 will give, at max, 3 keys per day (that's with DLC). 0% chance at Monster Helms. So that's 3 Monster Shoulders per day, that you'll never be able to use without doing Vet or getting lucky with the Golden Vendor.

You can get monsterhelmets from normal dungeons...atleast you can from the SotH-Dungeons.

oh and btw. the only difference between normal and vetMoL is goldjewelry instead of purple...which is like 300...400 extra-Stats....AMAZING!!!

At the PAX panel, the devs stated that there won't be any monster helmets dropping from normal modes.
Not sure if they will apply this also to the SotH dungeons, but it seems only logical to do so.

Rewards are:

Normal: 1 key
Veteran: 1 key + guaranteed monster helmet
Veteran (hard mode): 2 keys + guaranteed monster helmet

Ok, thx for this

Jaronking

It seems all they did was add more health to all the adds and bosses that's it.Nothing else that's not new content all you did was add health to the mobs.WTH actually do some work than just adding health am dam sure they did more work on the crown store loot bosses than the vet version of content.

I have to ask do the new dungeons drop impen gear?

Jaronking

DHale wrote: »

This is a data decision. Most players are not min maxed. They acknowledged at PAX this last weekend that pre nerf COA, WFT, ICP were NOT being done by most players when it was the pledge. Even after the nerf it was still not being done as part of pledges it also was not being completed by those that were attempting it. They are not going to change the difficulty of a dungeon because 4 people or a 104 people thought it was too easy. if YOU want a challenge take your CP out of your own character or run 300 or 160 or zero. Knock yourself out.

You know why that's the case most people just farm the first boss for the shackle that's why the new DLc dungeons don't have a similar token system.Am pretty sure people can beat the content they just choose the easy way out.

Seri

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

2) no dual roles. I have had more bad experiences than good with the role multivitamin. They do a little of both but not enough of either.

How is that enforceable? Prevent multi-role selection? But I can tank, heal or dps just fine on the one character (with some gear-swaps), so I'm going to queue up as any of the three. I won't multi-role in dungeon unless after the first boss I see we're going smoothly (usually heal + off dps).

DHale wrote: »

This is a data decision. Most players are not min maxed. They acknowledged at PAX this last weekend that pre nerf COA, WFT, ICP were NOT being done by most players when it was the pledge. Even after the nerf it was still not being done as part of pledges it also was not being completed by those that were attempting it.

I still feel that's because with exception of CoA, WGT and ICP, all the others were that watered down that you could get away without doing much in them, so when CoA, WGT and ICP required you to actually not stand in red, or actually deal with game mechanics, vs just fumble through.

They are not going to change the difficulty of a dungeon because 4 people or a 104 people thought it was too easy. if YOU want a challenge take your CP out of your own character or run 300 or 160 or zero. Knock yourself out.

Challenge accepted - Vet Wayrest 1, CP160 scale.

Despite dungeon scaling to 160cp, I removed all but 60cp total (20 in each red/blue/green), made crafted 160 gear from 3 and 4 trait sets, blue quality with purple glyphs (rekuta is cheap), grabbed offtrait willpower rings (also cheap on NA) and walked into Vet Wayrest 1. Managed to get to final boss with only 2 wipes but then quit to go sleep - Allene hits a bit hard in 5L/2H when I'm attempting to dps, not die, while eating her heavy attacks to my face.

Given I was by myself for something that is 4-person intended, at what point does the 'but CP and gear!' argument become outright 'wrong'?

Doctordarkspawn

Seri wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

2) no dual roles. I have had more bad experiences than good with the role multivitamin. They do a little of both but not enough of either.

How is that enforceable? Prevent multi-role selection? But I can tank, heal or dps just fine on the one character (with some gear-swaps), so I'm going to queue up as any of the three. I won't multi-role in dungeon unless after the first boss I see we're going smoothly (usually heal + off dps).

DHale wrote: »

This is a data decision. Most players are not min maxed. They acknowledged at PAX this last weekend that pre nerf COA, WFT, ICP were NOT being done by most players when it was the pledge. Even after the nerf it was still not being done as part of pledges it also was not being completed by those that were attempting it.

I still feel that's because with exception of CoA, WGT and ICP, all the others were that watered down that you could get away without doing much in them, so when CoA, WGT and ICP required you to actually not stand in red, or actually deal with game mechanics, vs just fumble through.

They are not going to change the difficulty of a dungeon because 4 people or a 104 people thought it was too easy. if YOU want a challenge take your CP out of your own character or run 300 or 160 or zero. Knock yourself out.

Challenge accepted - Vet Wayrest 1, CP160 scale.

Despite dungeon scaling to 160cp, I removed all but 60cp total (20 in each red/blue/green), made crafted 160 gear from 3 and 4 trait sets, blue quality with purple glyphs (rekuta is cheap), grabbed offtrait willpower rings (also cheap on NA) and walked into Vet Wayrest 1. Managed to get to final boss with only 2 wipes but then quit to go sleep - Allene hits a bit hard in 5L/2H when I'm attempting to dps, not die, while eating her heavy attacks to my face.

Given I was by myself for something that is 4-person intended, at what point does the 'but CP and gear!' argument become outright 'wrong'?

A bigger question is, at what point does the ''increase the difficulty' complaint become right?

At the end of the day this is the same arguement for the same audience their trying to cater to with the DLC pledge giver. S'just not happening, folks. Hopefully, and I well and truely hope this, that with the new Chief-bane pledge giver, WGT, and ICP will be buffed to their original difficulty. But that's -all- I hope.

I stop supporting the push for difficult content when said push comes at the expense of content I've been doing for ages now.

code65536

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

A bigger question is, at what point does the ''increase the difficulty' complaint become right?

Oh stop it with the inane slippery slope arguments. Nobody is asking for Vet Wayrest 1 to be buffed to vICP levels of difficulty. What we are asking for is for there to be a meaningful distinction between Normal and Veteran modes. For some content, there is too wide a gap between those modes (vMA). For some content, like the "new" vet dungeons, there is too narrow a gap. All we want is some sensible balance in the difficulty, and you're the one spewing hyperbole.

Normal mode ensures that the content is always accessible. The whole point of Veteran mode is to give people something to challenge themselves with. Because challenge is how people improve and progress. We don't need for there to be too much challenge--and it's perfectly fine if a good group can faceroll it--but when people can do it with common gear, low CP, and no group at all, that's what I'd call extreme. And remember, there's still Normal mode.

Doctordarkspawn

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

A bigger question is, at what point does the ''increase the difficulty' complaint become right?

Oh stop it with the inane slippery slope arguments. Nobody is asking for Vet Wayrest 1 to be buffed to vICP levels of difficulty. What we are asking for is for there to be a meaningful distinction between Normal and Veteran modes. For some content, there is too wide a gap between those modes (vMA). For some content, like the "new" vet dungeons, there is too narrow a gap. All we want is some sensible balance in the difficulty, and you're the one spewing hyperbole.

Normal mode ensures that the content is always accessible. The whole point of Veteran mode is to give people something to challenge themselves with. Because challenge is how people improve and progress. We don't need for there to be too much challenge--and it's perfectly fine if a good group can faceroll it--but when people can do it with common gear, low CP, and no group at all, that's what I'd call extreme. And remember, there's still Normal mode.

...Hyperbole? I. Dont. What? Lets put aside the fact it -is- a slippery slope, and despite the fact you are not asking for -all- content to be rock hard, you are still repurposing content for a very small part of the playerbase, lets put that aside for a moment. And no I am not trying to be condescending with this next bit.

The veteran content is still challenging for people who dont know what the endgame do. I did a dungeon on the live server today with one dude at 106 CP who had never done dungeons before. He died alot. He had way too low health and had no idea what the hell was going on. The only reason he -survived- most of it, was because he stayed at range. Can people solo these with no CP? Yes. But those are people who have a large ammount of experience with the game. They earned that. The difference, is a big one. And one I think many people -forget-.

I hope ICP, WGT, and COS and ROM are buffed. I hope they are the difficult content. Given they no longer affect the rotation of most people who will pug, it no longer -matters- if their too hard for everyone, no one has to take a day off anymore. But I bet you five bucks. Give it a year and people will complain those are too easy because they have mastered it so much, they forgot the times when it was still difficult for much of the playerbase.

You cannot stop the playerbase from soloing dungeons, worldbosses, or even kitting for multiple rolls. It's not a problem with the difficulty, it's a problem with the fundemental design of ESO. A design where roles themselves were an afterthought. This is a game where the problem of survivability can be purposefully filled, by sacrificing damage, and not that much damage. (In many cases, you dont even -need- to sacrifice damage. If you give people an open enough system numbercrunchers and theorycrafters -will- find a way to absolutely break the system. The only saving grace this game even has, oddly enough, is the stamina/magicka specialization and the class lines themselves.) That's just -what it is-, and without a complete revamp it's not going away.

code65536

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

you are still repurposing content for a very small part of the playerbase

If I was asking for them to be buffed to DLC dungeon levels, sure, that would be a valid statement. But I'm not, and I don't think anyone in this thread is.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The veteran content is still challenging for people who dont know what the endgame do.

If someone is doing a dungeon for their very first time, they should not be using Vet mode. That's what the Normal dungeons are for. You know what happened the very first time I tried a vet dungeon? We couldn't get past Gamyne in vFG and gave up. And you know what? That's okay, because it was a wakeup call to me that said, "You've got a lot to learn." And I went back to doing Normal dungeons. Until I got better and decided to try my hand at Vet dungeons again.

You act as if someone failing a dungeon is the end of the world. There is no satisfaction in victory if you never lose. No sense of accomplishment if you were never at risk of failing. And no drive to get better if there isn't something to challenge you. That's what veteran content is for. And it doesn't have to be for everyone--someone who just farms and RPs and who has no interest in getting better still have their Normal dungeons. At least now you can still do the quest, get the skill point, and experience the story without ever setting foot into a Veteran instance.

The very definition of "Veteran" suggests that it's meant for the seasoned player. Newcomers shouldn't be in Vet--they should be gaining experience in Normal. I sound like a bloody broken record at this point: If Veteran content is that easy, then what is the point of having separate Normal and Veteran modes? This is something I bring up in almost every post, but none of you detractors have ever addressed.

Doctordarkspawn

code65536 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

you are still repurposing content for a very small part of the playerbase

If I was asking for them to be buffed to DLC dungeon levels, sure, that would be a valid statement. But I'm not, and I don't think anyone in this thread is.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The veteran content is still challenging for people who dont know what the endgame do.

If someone is doing a dungeon for their very first time, they should not be using Vet mode. That's what the Normal dungeons are for. You know what happened the very first time I tried a vet dungeon? We couldn't get past Gamyne in vFG and gave up. And you know what? That's okay, because it was a wakeup call to me that said, "You've got a lot to learn." And I went back to doing Normal dungeons. Until I got better and decided to try my hand at Vet dungeons again.

You act as if someone failing a dungeon is the end of the world. There is no satisfaction in victory if you never lose. No sense of accomplishment if you were never at risk of failing. And no drive to get better if there isn't something to challenge you. That's what veteran content is for. And it doesn't have to be for everyone--someone who just farms and RPs and who has no interest in getting better still have their Normal dungeons. At least now you can still do the quest, get the skill point, and experience the story without ever setting foot into a Veteran instance.

The very definition of "Veteran" suggests that it's meant for the seasoned player. Newcomers shouldn't be in Vet--they should be gaining experience in Normal. I sound like a bloody broken record at this point: If Veteran content is that easy, then what is the point of having separate Normal and Veteran modes? This is something I bring up in almost every post, but none of you detractors have ever addressed.

My earlier points (That you choose not to quote. Cherrypicking, thaaat's nice.) still stand. As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is. The guy walked into a vet dungeon with a build cobbled together with string and gum, and got slaughtered. I dont see the problem with this senario. (Though to give him credit, he did have a working build outside of that.) A point I neglected to make earlier, too, while I'm at it. I came here from plenty of other MMO's, One of which resembled ESO's gameplay to a insane degree, and when I came over it wasn't that hard to make a working build. It wasn''t that hard to get the basics down and it wasn't at -all- hard to get the moment to moment gameplay down. The game isn't that hard because the fundemental design, ability choices aside, isn't that hard.

Also, I would appreciate you not puting words in my mouth. I dont act like it's the end of the world. I act like the root of the problem is inherent in the system, and it is. And until we deal with that, if we ever deal with that....we cant make much progress.

UrQuan

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.

The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.

That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.

Doctordarkspawn

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.

The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.

That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.

Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)

UrQuan

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.

The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.

That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.

Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)

Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.

Doctordarkspawn

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.

The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.

That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.

Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)

Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.

Depending on just how much this increase is, I dont think I'd have a problem with that. The real fear is, for me, just how much of the 'meta free zone' that dungeons are right now that we can preserve. I'm not saying we should just let every DPS with 14 K health in, I'm saying that a build slightly unconventional shouldn't be punished for that, and that's my real fear.

Mind giving me like a specific example? Like specific mechanics, the damage, and the damage increase. That sort of example.

Autolycus

ArchMikem wrote: »

MaddPowered wrote: »

Kammakazi wrote: »

Are you and your teammates min/maxers? That's probably why it's easy lol

We are all 531 cp and we breezed through every dungeon.
We did come prepared with the regular trial tank, trial healer and trial DPS set up expecting it to be hard.
I still do think it should be buffed. It is not much of a challenge.

Dude, why do you think it wasn't much of a challenge? You're all maxed and you all had characters specifically built for your roles. Other players who are much more relaxed than you won't share the same experience nor opinion.

There are many, many new and returning players who suggest that it's too easy too. I've worked alongside of many new and returning players to help them learn or relearn the fundamental games mechanics, how to gear, etc. Many of those players I've helped have since quit, because knowledge of the fundamental mechanics makes the difference between sweeping effortlessly through a zone, and dying to a singular wolf. It became too easy for them, and the journey to max level/rank turned into a daunting grind. Those that enjoy the story typically stay. Those that feel they are grinding through an easy story just to get to endgame (which is a different treat altogether) get bored and quit.

Often times, what makes something challenging is very simple, such as having a food buff, or allocating attributes, armor passives, a weapon glyph, etc. Many players, particularly those just starting out, are not aware of the existence or value of such things, and learning of them and using them makes a night/day difference.

I've personally gone back and tried entry-level content, focusing specifically on world bosses and group events in public dungeons, without crafted gear or CP. Being completely honest, knowledge of fundamental game mechanics makes it too easy, and that's really the only advantage I had was knowing mechanics. I can sum up almost all of Tamriel's mechanics in three phrases:
1. red circles = bad
2. yellow power attack = block or dodge
3. red power attack = bash or dodge

And even without crafted gear or CP, I generally kill things so fast (even on toons geared for tanking or healing) that I skipped their mechanics entirely, and again this is not accounting for set bonuses or CP. I would use only glyphs as I found them, not crafted, so basic stuff like reduced stam cost or flame damage, maybe a max stam/magicka glyph here or there, but stuff that is readily available to even the most entry-level characters.

What makes this game too easy is the lack of complex and punishing mechanics. Sure, having a bunch of CP and quality, crafted gear helps a lot. But that's not the reason why people find content too easy. The lack of detrimental effects - like sundering armor, increasing susceptibility to elemental, magic, poison or disease damage (and then actually using it against us), CC effects (like fear, silence, etc.) that persists for several seconds or requires the player to interact with an object to purge - these are all examples of things that add challenge, but are not as likely to simply *** people off like scaling up damage and health only.

UrQuan

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.

The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.

That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.

Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)

Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.

Depending on just how much this increase is, I dont think I'd have a problem with that. The real fear is, for me, just how much of the 'meta free zone' that dungeons are right now that we can preserve. I'm not saying we should just let every DPS with 14 K health in, I'm saying that a build slightly unconventional shouldn't be punished for that, and that's my real fear.

Mind giving me like a specific example? Like specific mechanics, the damage, and the damage increase. That sort of example.

Sure, have any of the red AOEs do damage that increases the longer you stand in them. Maybe set it so that each consecutive damage tick does 15% more damage than the previous one. In that dungeon, as the DPS I stopped bothering to get out of AOEs because they simply weren't a threat (even though our healer was barely bothering to do any healing at all). Doing something like that would teach people that you need to get out of the red, but not overly punish people who aren't super quick on the draw.

Hell, our healer did most (maybe all?) of the dungeon without a food buff, so I'm pretty sure her health was 12K or so for almost the entire dungeon. And the only time she died was when she literally stopped paying attention and was reading Twitch chat and talking to people there.

Doctordarkspawn

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.

The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.

That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.

Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)

Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.

Depending on just how much this increase is, I dont think I'd have a problem with that. The real fear is, for me, just how much of the 'meta free zone' that dungeons are right now that we can preserve. I'm not saying we should just let every DPS with 14 K health in, I'm saying that a build slightly unconventional shouldn't be punished for that, and that's my real fear.

Mind giving me like a specific example? Like specific mechanics, the damage, and the damage increase. That sort of example.

Sure, have any of the red AOEs do damage that increases the longer you stand in them. Maybe set it so that each consecutive damage tick does 15% more damage than the previous one. In that dungeon, as the DPS I stopped bothering to get out of AOEs because they simply weren't a threat (even though our healer was barely bothering to do any healing at all). Doing something like that would teach people that you need to get out of the red, but not overly punish people who aren't super quick on the draw.

Hell, our healer did most (maybe all?) of the dungeon without a food buff, so I'm pretty sure her health was 12K or so for almost the entire dungeon. And the only time she died was when she literally stopped paying attention and was reading Twitch chat and talking to people there.

That's actually not a bad idea. In fact that's actually a reallly good idea. Greenlit fer me.

When people actually give me specifics instead of just shouting "NEEDS TO BE HARDER" like barking dogs suddenly I find myself agreeing more often then not. Hell, it'd turn City of Ash into a -nightmare-. Valkyn Skoria wants bloooood. Or the Murklight bossfight. Suddenly those bosses that throw down alot of Dots become alot more vicious, that'd be cool.

Soleya

Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.

Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.

UrQuan

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.

Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.

As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.

Autolycus

UrQuan wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.

Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.

As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.

Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.

Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.

For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.

All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.

Contraptions

If they want to buff the dungeons I would rather they make them mechanics buffs instead of stat buffs. Just modifying health and damage up just seems lazy to me. By "challenge" I don't think anyone means one shots or damage sponges.

code65536

Autolycus wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.

Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.

As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.

Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.

Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.

For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.

All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.

For the two "new" vets that I did on the PTS (Vaults and Blackheart), HM just added health. I didn't observe any new mechanics, so it's not like the HMs that we are all used to in other instances.

Autolycus

code65536 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.

Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.

As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.

Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.

Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.

For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.

All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.

For the two "new" vets that I did on the PTS (Vaults and Blackheart), HM just added health. I didn't observe any new mechanics, so it's not like the HMs that we are all used to in other instances.

Good to know, thanks for sharing. I haven't tried the "new" dungeons on PTS. I had hoped that they would do more than add just health... it's a bit disappointing to know that they did not. If anything, I suppose that supports the object of this thread.

UrQuan

Autolycus wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.

Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.

As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.

Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.

Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.

For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.

All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.

I was talking about the new vet versions of the old non-vet dungeons. As far as I can tell all they do is add health to the boss, but I haven't done all of them.

Autolycus

UrQuan wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.

Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.

As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.

Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.

Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.

For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.

All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.

I was talking about the new vet versions of the old non-vet dungeons. As far as I can tell all they do is add health to the boss, but I haven't done all of them.

I think you're right, actually. Not long after I made that comment to you, somewhere on another thread it was mentioned that the hardmode versions in the "new" veteran versions aren't equipped with additional mechanics. Lines up with what you stated, and kinda makes sense. Sorry to be negative, but I can't say I'm all that surprised that ZOS wasn't "able" to add mechanics for hardmodes, with how many are being released in a single go.

potirondb16_ESO

Transairion wrote: »

I don't have any issue with the "new" (well, old but boosted stats) dungeons being easy, simply because it means more people will complete them and more people will be running pledges as a result.

The DLC dungeons are hard. Veteran ICP itself breaks my Sorceror Pet-build outright (they literally desummon). And it's okay to have hard things, but they're only 4 dungeons. The other dungeons number into the dozen/s, and they're base game content. If they all as hard as the DLC dungeons, Pledge participation will fall off the map and there'll be no point. DLC Pledge days are already a no-man's land people actively avoid, and I'd say it's a safe bet the majority of pledge-takers don't actually do them: simply because there's hard enough getting 4 random people together, even if they're good at their roles will struggle unless they've already done it heaps of times before.

We don't need base game content to be hard, we need it to be doable without it being a struggle for the base game players. While I'm glad you found it face-roll easy, I'm going to hazard a guess if they shifted it to live right now not every group would find it as face-roll easy as you did. I mean there are people who find the Vet Hist Dungeons face-roll easy too.


Compare what you're asking to something SWTOR did: on PTS they invited several top-tier raiding guilds to do the content, who of course found it faceroll easy and successfully got the content buffed to their liking.

The end result when the patch hit? Normal Mode was so hard 90% of the playerbase couldn't finish it, and Hard Mode only the guilds that tested it on the PTS even bothered to attempt it. The feedback resulted in a horrible experience and months of new content being utterly wasted, until nerf after nerf finally made it doable by a lot of players.

We don't want that here at all. We want content most of us can actually do, not tailor-made for the 1% best players.


In short: "New" Vet dungeons being easy is ok, because then most of the playerbase will be able to finish it. Making them too hard kills Pledge participation.

You're actually right, developper didn't wanted that game to create too much gap between community so that player would keep enjoying their game no matter how geared they are, that's why we don't see too much difference inbetween gear coming from veteran trial or openland. That difference inbetween player being created by their skills.

That's also the issue, if I was Zenimax I would think about an Elite DLC where you could unlock a new difficulty levell for pve content but this would also mean the DLC would be a must be bought in order to play end-game. Harder difficulty level, better reward while lowering veteran trial difficulty level in order to create some upgraded mechanics for the new trial version. Somehow a balance to reflect overall comunity progression.

Currently though if we were to increase the level of difficulty of the new content... I think a lot of player would scream and if we were to create some even harder then the one we already have (vMoL) a lot of player would scream too. The reality is that the difference Inside the community is SOO huge, we need help to balance it.

Personnally I would love to see new dungeon V1, be as difficult as City of Ash is currently in a new format (Nightmare mode), and V2, as hard as ICP when it started, and Tiers 3 DLC to bring us somewhere new... but I agree that it would undermine a lot of player experience. I do Wonder if Zenimax has any plan to adress that issue..

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_KaiSchober , @ZOS_PeterT

Seri

code65536 wrote: »

You know what happened the very first time I tried a vet dungeon? We couldn't get past Gamyne in vFG and gave up.

Nice. Although I can't talk - my first vet dungeon (vFG at ~VR3) our group barely made it to the second trash pack Back then though no-one complained (too?) hardly about it and we all walked away realising that we might actually need to learn to gear better and with things that actually complemented how we play.

UrQuan wrote: »

Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.

IMO that would be a nice start. Make the red actually hurt - I was being hit for only ~7-11k in 5 light for that vWayrest1 run if I didn't block. Hard dungeons seems like it's 'hard' because there's no real curve between the easy and hard dungeons, and people either don't care or don't have the knowledge that 5 heavy and weapon dmg bonuses on a magicka dps really isn't the best idea. TBH once you throw in some CP, outside of the DLC dungeons and vet trials, there's no real incentive to learn that either thus we end up in a downwards spiral.

Dubhliam

Autolycus wrote: »

...
1. red circles = bad
2. yellow power attack = block or dodge
3. red power attack = bash or dodge
...

This is exactly what we need added to new veteran versions.

1. Each subsequent tick of standing in red deals increased damage.
2. Heavy attacks from bosses will one-shot low health, low armor, non blocking players (wow, that is a lot of "if"s).
3. Non interrupted channels from a boss should be VERY punishing, depending on how long players have to interrupt.

These three tweaks should be enough to make Glirion's veteran dungeons a nice learning experience and a preparation for DLC dungeons.

BUT!
Hard modes should introduce new mechanics.
Sorry ZOS, there is no excuse... I know there are a 16 new vet bosses, but I got news... THEY'RE NOT REALLY NEW.
Considering how much time it takes to build something from scratch, I don't think adding one new mechanic to each HM would be so resource consuming.

dotlife

Take the 5 best of the upcomming dungeons. Make a hardmode from the start in these. Scale the difficulty towards cp cap, Best gear and very good skill and knowledge about the game/mmo needed. Make a few good rewards for being able to master them and call it a day. Make all happy.

Asardes

The gap between difficulty of "normal" dungeons and "veteran" ones, vs. DLC ones is huge. This is a problem in itself. Running Wayest Sewers 1 & 2, even on hard mode won't prepare you for ICP, let alone CoS or RoM. People will just hit a wall there. Same with trials. Normal ones are stupid easy. No real training for running veteran ones.

deadlychaos1991

Okay, this is the fundamental issue with this game. Just as many people have stated in response to the 'it's supposed to be easy' ideology, the NORMAL mode is for NORMAL people, casuals, low CPs, seeing the content, grouping up and having fun. VETERAN versions are for people that enjoy a challenge. There are still a LOT of people that like being challenged. Trials are 12 man, vmsa is solo. So when you consider the actual CHALLENGING 4 man content in the game, you literally have vdsa. That's IT.

Let's be real here. 95% of this game is soloable, casual scrubs have all 16 normal zones, starting zones, wothgar, hews bane and the Gold Coast, multiple delves, easily soloable public dungeons, quests, world bosses which require a pug or two, and farming. All the dungeons in the game (including vmsa and vdsa) have a super easy scrub mode for people who aren't end game, and on top of that, all the things considered veteran really aren't hard at all aside from maelstrom, trials and dragonstar. All the trial gear and dungeon gear can be acquired in super easy scrub mode so you can get best in slot gear EXTREMELY EASILY compared to other MMO's. (Craftable gear is best in slot? Wth zenimax...) The only exceptions to this are malestrom and dragonstar weapons. Wheres the incentive to run the hard content if you can just gear up end game with trash content? For a game that claims to be an MMO, there's an awful lot of content that promotes soloing and scrub-play. Even more so now that craglorn is just like all the rest of the trash zones.

I understand that they're trying to appeal to new and casual customers and that's what one tamriel is supposed to be geared toward but let's be honest here, that's trash for a game that has been out for 2 and a half years already.

if they want this game to have the longevity and legacy of world of Warcraft or league of legends, they need to make consistent content that can appeal to ALL 3 types of players: casuals, raiders and pvpers EQUALLY. WoW does this extremely well. ESO...well..just doesn't. Casuals will like the game for a bit, play through the story and then leave, and what's left? The hardcore players. This game won't last another 2 years with the hype if they don't give some fulfilling rewards for your effort and stop releasing 1 piece of new, quality raiding content every 8 months.