STOP DOING EQUIPMENT WRITS

I_killed_Vivec · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

At the end of the day you are up $66 or up $100.
Less is not loss.

OK. Fine. Let's not call it a loss then. Simply call it an obviously very bad decision, business-wise.
Why the heck would ANYONE choose the less profitable option ??? (especially if you don't serve anyone by doing so. I can understand someone making friends, family and neighbours happy by giving them berries for free or cheap, but I can't understand someone throwing berries away or selling them cheaper than they could for no reason).

In the example of the cake, cooking them DECREASES their value so obviously it is wasted time, energy, and in the end, money. Bad business decisions (even if the wallet isn't thinner at the end of the day).

Back to topic : Crafting writs (or any other stuff to do in ESO) should NOT be designed as a bad decision for the player.

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

I recommend contacting your local office to educate yourself on the matter.

A pity I'm not in the USA : I would have had a jolly good time asking them how selling for 5 when I could sell for 10 could NOT be considered a loss. Or at least a very silly decision :-)

While you're at it, you could ask them to explain to you the terms that you keep mixing up here (income, profit, cash, value, cost, price, etc.). You seem very confused about all this.

Cryptical · August 2016

The people in this thread that claim taking less profit is a 'loss' are involved in the self deception that allows people to think that jacking up prices then having a 50% off sale is 'savings'.

When a store jacks up a price from $100 to $200 and hangs a 50% off sign, you are not actually saving $100... It is a deceptive trick of accounting that only works on paper.

The so-called 'loss' being described by people in this thread for the action of taking less profit than maximum theoretically possible, is also a deceptive trick of accounting that functions on paper alone. Less gain is still gain.

Morimizo · August 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Just a heads up, I have done all 3 equipment writs across 8 toons over the past 3 days. In a nutshell;

I am now at a net loss of ;
1. Around 50 Rubedite ores per toon --> 400 ore lost
2. Around 40 ash per toon --> 320 ash lost
3. Around 40 silk per toon --> 320 silk lost

In return, I got one wax and one temper --> about 11.5k gold + 660*8*3 = about 27k gold. Bear in mind, tempers and wax are rng so you might not get any.
So breaking it down per toon --> you would lose about 50 of each v15 mat and get around 2k gold in return (not including gold mats) for doing equipment dailies.
You would be better off not relying on RNG and avoiding crafting dailies for equipment writs altogether IMO.

Do at your own risk. Stick to consumables to get kutas at minimal cost. I, personally am going to stop doing any equipment writs until ZOS gets this nonsense sorted.

Even before there was the tenth crafting tier (ruby), it wasn't worth it all. Consumables are worth the investment, even if it's just for surveys. We should not talk about this though, ZOS will nerf or destroy them. So, sshhhh.

I expect that ZOS will never adjust equipment writs to be worthwhile. They can't add an alphabetical sort to the Guild Trader.

ZOS_PeterT · August 2016

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anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

Doing writs is... enjoyable ???
How long have you been doing them ? The fun factor has long worn off for me :-)

But yeah if you enjoy doing them and accept a loss in potential gold for the pleasure of the "lottery ticket" effect, fine ! Totally understandable.

Doesn't make non-profitable writs proper design though.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

The people in this thread that claim taking less profit is a 'loss' are involved in the self deception that allows people to think that jacking up prices then having a 50% off sale is 'savings'.

When a store jacks up a price from $100 to $200 and hangs a 50% off sign, you are not actually saving $100... It is a deceptive trick of accounting that only works on paper.

The so-called 'loss' being described by people in this thread for the action of taking less profit than maximum theoretically possible, is also a deceptive trick of accounting that functions on paper alone. Less gain is still gain.

Depends.

If it's something that I would have bought anyway (because I wanted or needed it) at full price and I buy it 50% off, then I actually saved money, concretely.
If it makes me buy something that I would NOT have bought at full price, then it's not saved money, it's just an extra expenditure.

Now please tell me : if you have two people in front of view and you have one item to sell, why wouldn't you sell it to the lowest bidder ? how is that a gain, and how is selling to the highest bidder an "accounting trick that works on paper only" ?

Cryptical · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

Doing writs is... enjoyable ???
How long have you been doing them ? The fun factor has long worn off for me :-)

But yeah if you enjoy doing them and accept a loss in potential gold for the pleasure of the "lottery ticket" effect, fine ! Totally understandable.

Doesn't make non-profitable writs proper design though.

"Proper" is a subjective term. 'Proper', according to the chase for imaginary wealth in an imaginary world? Or 'proper', according to the subjective desires of the player that is NOT YOU.

It's imaginary money, in an imaginary world. Your rules for making decisions need not apply.

STEVIL · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Now please tell me : if you have two people in front of view and you have one item to sell, why wouldn't you sell it to the lowest bidder ? how is that a gain, and how is selling to the highest bidder an "accounting trick that works on paper only" ?

i would sell it to the argonian.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

Doing writs is... enjoyable ???
How long have you been doing them ? The fun factor has long worn off for me :-)

But yeah if you enjoy doing them and accept a loss in potential gold for the pleasure of the "lottery ticket" effect, fine ! Totally understandable.

Doesn't make non-profitable writs proper design though.

"Proper" is a subjective term. 'Proper', according to the chase for imaginary wealth in an imaginary world? Or 'proper', according to the subjective desires of the player that is NOT YOU.

It's imaginary money, in an imaginary world. Your rules for making decisions need not apply.

It has nothing to do with objective, subjective, or me being egocentric or whatever. It has to do with the fact that completing game content should not be PUNISHING, which equipment writs are more often than not.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Now please tell me : if you have two people in front of view and you have one item to sell, why wouldn't you sell it to the lowest bidder ? how is that a gain, and how is selling to the highest bidder an "accounting trick that works on paper only" ?

i would sell it to the argonian.

That's charity !!! :-)

imnotanother · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

I recommend contacting your local office to educate yourself on the matter.

A pity I'm not in the USA : I would have had a jolly good time asking them how selling for 5 when I could sell for 10 could NOT be considered a loss. Or at least a very silly decision :-)

While you're at it, you could ask them to explain to you the terms that you keep mixing up here (income, profit, cash, value, cost, price, etc.). You seem very confused about all this.

Haha I am confused about the definitions?!
I don't really feel like giving a vocabulary lesson here...

You keep making the mistake of thinking you can value your asset at any price. An assets price is always determined by what it cost to obtain the goods.
If it wasn't I could buy 5 Apples for 1 dollar but change the value to 1,000,000 per Apple. Would that mean now I have 5 million in assest? No, because an assets value is ALWAYS determined by the price paid for an asset. (Book/Wholesale Value)

Market Value is the price you can sell your Goods/Inventory Assets.

Income is the same as Gross Profit/Gross Revenue. The amount of money earned before you subtract expenses.

Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) covers labor, materials, and all overhead.

Profit is a financial gain.

I would love for you to ask that silly question too. I will tell you my answer, again, using your Apples.

You have 100 in gold. You buy 5 apples for 1 g. (Your assets = 95g on hand, 5g is COGS)
a) You sell the 5 apples for 5g each. (5x5 = 25 +95g = 120g) You made a 20g profit.
b) You sell the 5 apples for 10g each.(5x10 = 50 + 95g = 145g) You made a 45g profit.

In scenario B, you earn 25 more gold than scenario A. But both scenarios earn a profit, not a loss.

Now this is too simple of a scenario because we don't have any other variables that are considered expenses (Vendor rent, consignment fees, sales tax, property tax, wages, etc.)

So if the world of ESO and crafting materials: if you are able to use your TIME to obtain 200 materials, the cost in gold is 0. If you place a value market on the 200 for 10k, that is price you are looking to get.
To understand your profit you would subtract the Gross Revenue (10k) by the COGS (0) and you would be left with your Profit. (10k)

But say you bought the stack of 200 for 2k from someone. Then you sell for 10k in the trader.
10k-2k = 8k profit.

Same with Crafting Writs. You can farm 200 materials and use 1/4 of them for crafting writs. Say you turn in 3 equipment writs and earn 1,992 gold. We won't factor in the RNG chance to get Glass Fragments, Tempers, Weapons, or Surveys. We will just focus on the gold only.

So you have Grossed (1,992) and now subtract the cost to obtain the Mats (0) and you are left with the profit of 1,992 (100%)

But lets say you bought those mats at 2k. Did your writs and got the gold.
It would look like: 1,992 - 2,000 = -8 Net Loss.

I hope this clears up the confusion for you. I still recommend checking out the www.score.org website because you should never close your mind and stop learning.

Cryptical · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

The people in this thread that claim taking less profit is a 'loss' are involved in the self deception that allows people to think that jacking up prices then having a 50% off sale is 'savings'.

When a store jacks up a price from $100 to $200 and hangs a 50% off sign, you are not actually saving $100... It is a deceptive trick of accounting that only works on paper.

The so-called 'loss' being described by people in this thread for the action of taking less profit than maximum theoretically possible, is also a deceptive trick of accounting that functions on paper alone. Less gain is still gain.

Depends.

If it's something that I would have bought anyway (because I wanted or needed it) at full price and I buy it 50% off, then I actually saved money, concretely.
If it makes me buy something that I would NOT have bought at full price, then it's not saved money, it's just an extra expenditure.

Now please tell me : if you have two people in front of view and you have one item to sell, why wouldn't you sell it to the lowest bidder ? how is that a gain, and how is selling to the highest bidder an "accounting trick that works on paper only" ?

That's not what I was addressing. I was addressing the cockamamie idea that selling to person x for $ profit instead of to person y for $$$ profit was somehow a loss.

Either person you sell to, you have profit.
P
R
O
F
I
T

No matter how you try to drag a comparison of profit into it and shine a spotlight on the difference in profits, the fact remains that BOTH options left you with more in game wealth than you started with. So calling one option a "loss" is demonstrably incorrect.

You want to get into the reasons a person might choose the lower profit option, that enters into the subjective opinions of that person and is not for you to control.

But the fact remains, if you ended the writ process with more wealth than you had when you started, you profited. wealth can be gold, tempers, a trait as yet unresearched, other mats from decon, etc. and that makes 'wealth' in this imaginary world ALSO a subjective determination (unless you are going to demand a number value be placed on research traits?) so this entire thread from start to now is just plain useless.

imnotanother · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

The people in this thread that claim taking less profit is a 'loss' are involved in the self deception that allows people to think that jacking up prices then having a 50% off sale is 'savings'.

When a store jacks up a price from $100 to $200 and hangs a 50% off sign, you are not actually saving $100... It is a deceptive trick of accounting that only works on paper.

The so-called 'loss' being described by people in this thread for the action of taking less profit than maximum theoretically possible, is also a deceptive trick of accounting that functions on paper alone. Less gain is still gain.

Depends.

If it's something that I would have bought anyway (because I wanted or needed it) at full price and I buy it 50% off, then I actually saved money, concretely.
If it makes me buy something that I would NOT have bought at full price, then it's not saved money, it's just an extra expenditure.

Now please tell me : if you have two people in front of view and you have one item to sell, why wouldn't you sell it to the lowest bidder ? how is that a gain, and how is selling to the highest bidder an "accounting trick that works on paper only" ?

That's not what I was addressing. I was addressing the cockamamie idea that selling to person x for $ profit instead of to person y for $$$ profit was somehow a loss.

Either person you sell to, you have profit.
P
R
O
F
I
T

No matter how you try to drag a comparison of profit into it and shine a spotlight on the difference in profits, the fact remains that BOTH options left you with more in game wealth than you started with. So calling one option a "loss" is demonstrably incorrect.

You want to get into the reasons a person might choose the lower profit option, that enters into the subjective opinions of that person and is not for you to control.

But the fact remains, if you ended the writ process with more wealth than you had when you started, you profited. wealth can be gold, tempers, a trait as yet unresearched, other mats from decon, etc. and that makes 'wealth' in this imaginary world ALSO a subjective determination (unless you are going to demand a number value be placed on research traits?) so this entire thread from start to now is just plain useless.

It is useless. I made the mistake of trying to point out that you never suffer a loss of gold. (Maybe materials) That in both situations, you make money. Which to some people, makes doing writs still a viable solution to money making.

Lysette · August 2016

I will give another example to show what calculatoric costs are and how important it is to look at things in an economical way. Let's see - we have a helicopter which costs nearly a million dollar. If we would not have used credit to buy it but our money, we would not be able to earn money with that million anymore, because it would be bound in the helicopter. So we have to consider 1% of that million dollar per month as the costs of the helicopter just by the fact, that we own it - which would be 10,000 dollars. That is what we do not earn because we have this helicopter - of course we are not that stupid to actually use our own money, at least not 90% of it, but use credit instead - preferable in a currency which will get worse so we will not have to pay back all of it, but are done with it earlier. But this is another issue, where a lot of money can be made.

This credit costs us interest of course, but we have 900,000 dollars left, which is our money to reinvest again - and this can earn us at least 9,000 dollars per month now - and this compensates for most of the costs for the credit and we have actually less calculatoric costs compared to if we would have used our own money to buy it. Furthermore we can deduct the costs of the credit from other win and pay a lot less taxes by this. You see, it makes a whole lot of sense, to look at it in an economical way.

I_killed_Vivec · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

Doing writs is... enjoyable ???
How long have you been doing them ? The fun factor has long worn off for me :-)

But yeah if you enjoy doing them and accept a loss in potential gold for the pleasure of the "lottery ticket" effect, fine ! Totally understandable.

Doesn't make non-profitable writs proper design though.

Now now, we know they are profitable, just not as profitable as selling the materials. We've done the maths on that one

Yes, doing the writs is more enjoyable than passively selling materials. I've been doing top level writs since they started, I've been trading for longer, and I admit I find playing a crafter more enjoyable than playing shop.

But the problem with top level writs is not the gold (largely irrelevant in any case given the amounts people have), or even the amount of materials, but the wasted inspiration, the lack of variety and the lack of imagination. If I'm asked to create an item why not give a bonus for adding a specific trait, or style or making it green?

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

I made the mistake of trying to point out that you never suffer a loss of gold. (Maybe materials) That in both situations, you make money. Which to some people, makes doing writs still a viable solution to money making.

Why don't you advise people to sell their excess mats to the NPC vendor ? Because, you see, it makes money. Less than selling to other players , but still money. Remember, less profit is not a loss... Which, to some people, makes it a viable solution to money making... ?????

imnotanother · August 2016

@Lysette
This is the 3rd time you have used the term calculatoric costs. I must admit, I have no idea what you are referencing or talking about when it comes to that term.
Not knowing the term, I am having a hard time following/understanding your example.
I feel like it isn't related at all to what we have been discussing. There are many other variables that go into play as well with your scenario (Registration Fees, Pilot Salaries, Hanger Fees, maintenance, fuel, property taxes potentially luxury taxes, loan interest, and Overhead)

But I don't even know what why we are talking about helicopter.

Lysette · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

@Lysette
This is the 3rd time you have used the term calculatoric costs. I must admit, I have no idea what you are referencing or talking about when it comes to that term.
Not knowing the term, I am having a hard time following/understanding your example.
I feel like it isn't related at all to what we have been discussing. There are many other variables that go into play as well with your scenario (Registration Fees, Pilot Salaries, Hanger Fees, maintenance, fuel, property taxes potentially luxury taxes, loan interest, and Overhead)

But I don't even know what why we are talking about helicopter.

Sorry, the english term is "imputed costs" - I just translated straight from the german term "kalkulatorische Kosten" which would be calculatoric costs then.

The purpose was to show, that there are costs, which you do not have to pay, but which are there due to the fact that you own stuff, instead to use the money to earn money with it. Our helicopter is such an example. If we would have used our own money to buy it, we would not be able to earn those 10,000 dollars per month anymore with that million, we would have to put in to buy it. That are imputed costs - now that I know the correct term - sorry, I did not know it before.

Using material for writs is similar - you could instead of using them just sell them - and so these are the costs of the material put into the writ - not the production costs, but the market value of them. In a tax balance you would take the production costs, but in a business balance you use the market value, because that is what you actually are not getting if you use the material instead.

imnotanother · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

I made the mistake of trying to point out that you never suffer a loss of gold. (Maybe materials) That in both situations, you make money. Which to some people, makes doing writs still a viable solution to money making.

Why don't you advise people to sell their excess mats to the NPC vendor ? Because, you see, it makes money. Less than selling to other players , but still money. Remember, less profit is not a loss... Which, to some people, makes it a viable solution to money making... ?????

I have read many times on here that players do sell to vendors because they lack a trader. I would not recommend such a thing. Even though I do vendor green recipes, and most weapons/gear.

I never said NOT to use a trader. I do daily. Average a profit of 500k a week. Mostly selling motifs and set items from PvP and Trials. When new DLCs drop I make loads of money by selling Mats and Tempers (because everyone usually wants to try and new armor set). Kutas are always easy gold.

But at the same time, I recommend doing crafting writs...because it also nets you money.
Earlier in this thread, I gave my results of last night's writ rewards.
With all of the tempers, mats, gear, and gold that was earned from the writ, it turned out to be a 35k Gross Revenue, cost 0 gold to obtain the mats, so I made 35k.

Why limit yourself to one avenue of money making?

Waffennacht · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GwwwsaAaaaaAAAAAA!

TIME HAS A VALUE

There is no such thing as, "free"

Every second you spend farming mats to waste on writs you are NOT doing something MORE profitable

SO in the above arguments, the person farming that keeps saying it's "free" is way off.

To me 1 hour is equivalent to 13 - 20k gold. If i go out. It's to grab roughly 200 mats an hour, I get an average of 1 gold item per stack, so if I do anything and don't get 13k worth of gold, I'm losing money.

This is the epitome of entitlement thinking. To think that your starting point is 13k per hour and anything less is something that has been taken from you by some manner or method, as if you are entitled to receive 13k-plus for every hour you 'spend' on ESO.

Eso doesn't owe you that. It certainly isn't obligated to cater to your delusional idea of the self-determined worth of your time.

@Cryptical

Entitled!? Where do you get "entitled" from?

My phrase "I'm losing money" was preceded by, "If I go out, It's to grab mats." Meaning when I choose to farm, grind, get moniez, whatever you wanna call it, I can expect a return of approx 13k an hour.

If I were to choose to do something else, and try to (or don't whichever) achieve that 13k an hour, I won't.

It's not a matter of "entitlement" it's simply Im choosing to do something less Profitable, and therefore, if profits are my only goal, then I'm losing money.

It's not I'm saying I deserve more, Im saying I can get more.

Eso is not a living thing In which I can convince to give me gold. It's a machine that provides me with an opportunity to make 13k gold an hour gettin mats, this isn't a number I just pulled outta thin air, it's the current value of Tempering Alloy...

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

Doing writs is... enjoyable ???
How long have you been doing them ? The fun factor has long worn off for me :-)

But yeah if you enjoy doing them and accept a loss in potential gold for the pleasure of the "lottery ticket" effect, fine ! Totally understandable.

Doesn't make non-profitable writs proper design though.

Now now, we know they are profitable, just not as profitable as selling the materials. We've done the maths on that one

Yes, doing the writs is more enjoyable than passively selling materials. I've been doing top level writs since they started, I've been trading for longer, and I admit I find playing a crafter more enjoyable than playing shop.

But the problem with top level writs is not the gold (largely irrelevant in any case given the amounts people have), or even the amount of materials, but the wasted inspiration, the lack of variety and the lack of imagination. If I'm asked to create an item why not give a bonus for adding a specific trait, or style or making it green?

Your point of view is perfectly acceptable !

In fact we want the same : some more meaning in the crafting writs. Doesn't have to be gold, can be something else, but they need a little overhaul and some more incentive.

Cryptical · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

I made the mistake of trying to point out that you never suffer a loss of gold. (Maybe materials) That in both situations, you make money. Which to some people, makes doing writs still a viable solution to money making.

Why don't you advise people to sell their excess mats to the NPC vendor ? Because, you see, it makes money. Less than selling to other players , but still money. Remember, less profit is not a loss... Which, to some people, makes it a viable solution to money making... ?????

If that's what they want to do, then that's what they do, and it's not for you or me to control their actions. But don't tell them a falsehood by saying they lost gold by selling to the npc merchant. Plus 5 gold or plus 50 gold, both are still "plus gold".

imnotanother · August 2016

Lysette wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

@Lysette
This is the 3rd time you have used the term calculatoric costs. I must admit, I have no idea what you are referencing or talking about when it comes to that term.
Not knowing the term, I am having a hard time following/understanding your example.
I feel like it isn't related at all to what we have been discussing. There are many other variables that go into play as well with your scenario (Registration Fees, Pilot Salaries, Hanger Fees, maintenance, fuel, property taxes potentially luxury taxes, loan interest, and Overhead)

But I don't even know what why we are talking about helicopter.

Sorry, the english term is "imputed costs" - I just translated straight from the german term "kalkulatorische Kosten" which would be calculatoric costs then.

The purpose was to show, that there are costs, which you do not have to pay, but which are there due to the fact that you own stuff, instead to use the money to earn money with it. Our helicopter is such an example. If we would have used our own money to buy it, we would not be able to earn those 10,000 dollars per month anymore with that million, we wouild have to put in to buy it. That are imputed costs - now that I know the correct term - sorry, I did not know it before.

Using material for writs is similar - you could instead of using them just sell them - and so these are the costs of the material put into the writ - not the production costs, but the market value of them.

Thank you for the clear up, I was seriously scratching my head. If I am not mistaken, this is the same as "opportunity cost?"
I can agree to a point, moreso in real life, but in ESO I am able to farm, kill mobs, earn XP/CP, and communicate with friends all at the same time. Nothing stops me from picking up every node when I run from point A to point B in a quest. By playing this style, you wouldn't suffer from "choosing a less profitable alternative compared to a more profitable one"

Lysette · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

@Lysette
This is the 3rd time you have used the term calculatoric costs. I must admit, I have no idea what you are referencing or talking about when it comes to that term.
Not knowing the term, I am having a hard time following/understanding your example.
I feel like it isn't related at all to what we have been discussing. There are many other variables that go into play as well with your scenario (Registration Fees, Pilot Salaries, Hanger Fees, maintenance, fuel, property taxes potentially luxury taxes, loan interest, and Overhead)

But I don't even know what why we are talking about helicopter.

Sorry, the english term is "imputed costs" - I just translated straight from the german term "kalkulatorische Kosten" which would be calculatoric costs then.

The purpose was to show, that there are costs, which you do not have to pay, but which are there due to the fact that you own stuff, instead to use the money to earn money with it. Our helicopter is such an example. If we would have used our own money to buy it, we would not be able to earn those 10,000 dollars per month anymore with that million, we wouild have to put in to buy it. That are imputed costs - now that I know the correct term - sorry, I did not know it before.

Using material for writs is similar - you could instead of using them just sell them - and so these are the costs of the material put into the writ - not the production costs, but the market value of them.

Thank you for the clear up, I was seriously scratching my head. If I am not mistaken, this is the same as "opportunity cost?"
I can agree to a point, moreso in real life, but in ESO I am able to farm, kill mobs, earn XP/CP, and communicate with friends all at the same time. Nothing stops me from picking up every node when I run from point A to point B in a quest. By playing this style, you wouldn't suffer from "choosing a less profitable alternative compared to a more profitable one"

yes of course, if I would always look at things like this, then spare time would be by far too expensive and I would be a workoholic

Maybe that is even a reason, why so many rich people are workoholics.

bluedevilblue · August 2016

I came to this same conclusion last night when I saw it use 39 rubedite to fulfill my writ and then got the gold and an axe to decon. I think if the surveys had all V15, then that might be okay, but from what I can tell, I'm going to get half voidstone on that survey (which I really don't need now).

The consummables are great. The non-Vet level equipment are fine since who needs 200 high iron ore. But I cannot go through that much high-level mats just for a writ. I still need equipment (and I probably always will since sets/set ups change).

Waffennacht · August 2016

Lysette wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

@Lysette
This is the 3rd time you have used the term calculatoric costs. I must admit, I have no idea what you are referencing or talking about when it comes to that term.
Not knowing the term, I am having a hard time following/understanding your example.
I feel like it isn't related at all to what we have been discussing. There are many other variables that go into play as well with your scenario (Registration Fees, Pilot Salaries, Hanger Fees, maintenance, fuel, property taxes potentially luxury taxes, loan interest, and Overhead)

But I don't even know what why we are talking about helicopter.

Sorry, the english term is "imputed costs" - I just translated straight from the german term "kalkulatorische Kosten" which would be calculatoric costs then.

The purpose was to show, that there are costs, which you do not have to pay, but which are there due to the fact that you own stuff, instead to use the money to earn money with it. Our helicopter is such an example. If we would have used our own money to buy it, we would not be able to earn those 10,000 dollars per month anymore with that million, we wouild have to put in to buy it. That are imputed costs - now that I know the correct term - sorry, I did not know it before.

Using material for writs is similar - you could instead of using them just sell them - and so these are the costs of the material put into the writ - not the production costs, but the market value of them.

Thank you for the clear up, I was seriously scratching my head. If I am not mistaken, this is the same as "opportunity cost?"
I can agree to a point, moreso in real life, but in ESO I am able to farm, kill mobs, earn XP/CP, and communicate with friends all at the same time. Nothing stops me from picking up every node when I run from point A to point B in a quest. By playing this style, you wouldn't suffer from "choosing a less profitable alternative compared to a more profitable one"

yes of course, if I would always look at things like this, then spare time would be by far too expensive and I would be a workoholic Maybe that is even a reason, why so many rich people are workoholics.

That is why. Their time is allocated for the most profitable return. It's exactly why, they don't "waste" time making 5 gold when they could be making 50 gold in that exact same time slot.

This is also why playing Eso is an inherent issue when you're not already wealth irl. - Aka wtf, are you playin a video when you could be working etc...?

Lysette · August 2016

I have to say, so far I never really looked into surveys - it was more by accident that I stumbled across them - but now, where I read here, that there is a lot more to gain from them, I will pay attention to them. Thank you for that.

Lysette · August 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

@Lysette
This is the 3rd time you have used the term calculatoric costs. I must admit, I have no idea what you are referencing or talking about when it comes to that term.
Not knowing the term, I am having a hard time following/understanding your example.
I feel like it isn't related at all to what we have been discussing. There are many other variables that go into play as well with your scenario (Registration Fees, Pilot Salaries, Hanger Fees, maintenance, fuel, property taxes potentially luxury taxes, loan interest, and Overhead)

But I don't even know what why we are talking about helicopter.

Sorry, the english term is "imputed costs" - I just translated straight from the german term "kalkulatorische Kosten" which would be calculatoric costs then.

The purpose was to show, that there are costs, which you do not have to pay, but which are there due to the fact that you own stuff, instead to use the money to earn money with it. Our helicopter is such an example. If we would have used our own money to buy it, we would not be able to earn those 10,000 dollars per month anymore with that million, we wouild have to put in to buy it. That are imputed costs - now that I know the correct term - sorry, I did not know it before.

Using material for writs is similar - you could instead of using them just sell them - and so these are the costs of the material put into the writ - not the production costs, but the market value of them.

Thank you for the clear up, I was seriously scratching my head. If I am not mistaken, this is the same as "opportunity cost?"
I can agree to a point, moreso in real life, but in ESO I am able to farm, kill mobs, earn XP/CP, and communicate with friends all at the same time. Nothing stops me from picking up every node when I run from point A to point B in a quest. By playing this style, you wouldn't suffer from "choosing a less profitable alternative compared to a more profitable one"

yes of course, if I would always look at things like this, then spare time would be by far too expensive and I would be a workoholic Maybe that is even a reason, why so many rich people are workoholics.

That is why. Their time is allocated for the most profitable return. It's exactly why, they don't "waste" time making 5 gold when they could be making 50 gold in that exact same time slot.

This is also why playing Eso is an inherent issue when you're not already wealth irl. - Aka wtf, are you playin a video when you could be working etc...?

Of course in a proper calculation for yourself you would have to consider that recreation and spare time has an intrinsic value in itself, which might lead to a longer life and less health problems, and with it there is an imputed gain, which could as well be evaluated in money terms - but this is then more predictive than anything else - I could as well ask a fortune teller - hm, or an insurance mathematician, these guys calculate with these kind of risks or benefits all the time and put money values on them.

On the other side, playing ESO for 10 hours straight is more of a health risk and not beneficial - especially with competitive gameplay, because the body does not make a difference between real stress and stress in a game environment.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

I made the mistake of trying to point out that you never suffer a loss of gold. (Maybe materials) That in both situations, you make money. Which to some people, makes doing writs still a viable solution to money making.

Why don't you advise people to sell their excess mats to the NPC vendor ? Because, you see, it makes money. Less than selling to other players , but still money. Remember, less profit is not a loss... Which, to some people, makes it a viable solution to money making... ?????

If that's what they want to do, then that's what they do, and it's not for you or me to control their actions. But don't tell them a falsehood by saying they lost gold by selling to the npc merchant. Plus 5 gold or plus 50 gold, both are still "plus gold".

I don't want to control their actions. But I want them to be well informed. Telling them that "it doesn't matter because there's profit in both cases", or advising them to sell to NPC vendor is bad, misleading "advice".