STOP DOING EQUIPMENT WRITS

I_killed_Vivec

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'd

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Haha I get it man. I really do but you never lose anything. You might make less...but never lose anything.

Sorry @imnotanother , but if you have 1 apple, customer A is ready to pay 5 dollars for that apple, customer B is ready to pay 10 dollars for that apple, and you choose to sell it to customer A, then you've not earned 5 dollars, you've clearly lost 5 dollars.
That's math. Not opinion.

It's not maths, it's semantics.

In this example, say the apple trader buys apples at wholesale prices of 1g per apple. He sold the apple at 5g to one customer, rather than 10g to another.

His profit IS 4g - that is maths.

His profit could have been 9g - which shows an opportunity loss of 5g.

No. It's not semantics.

Moment A :

You have 1000 gold. Global asset 1000.

Moment B :

You farm 1 apple. Market price of apple is 10g. Global asset 1010.

Moment C :

option C1 : You sell the apple 5g:
Global assets : 1005.

option C2 : you sell the apple for 10g.
Global assets : 1010.

Option C1 shows a 5g LOSS as compared to Moment B.

You can argue that C1 and C2 options BOTH show a gain as compared to moment A, but that's assuming the apple was worth nothing, which is untrue : it was part of your assets before you sold it. No accounting law will let you estimate the value of your assets lower than market price.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Another example given was crafting armour for someone. If it costs 5g in materials but one crafter sells it for 10g then I might choose to undercut that price and sell for 9g. I will have made a 4g profit, and in this case there isn't even an opportunity loss, because trying to sell at 10g might result in failure to sell at all.

If you cannot sell at 10g it means market price is NOT 10g. Per definition.

It is semantics.

Otherwise in your example even C2 only broke even! You can't measure profit in terms of the potential market value of your goods - a market price that includes profit! - otherwise you'd only make a "profit" if you managed to sell above market price

Profit is income less costs (with some "inventive" tweaking by accountants...).

In your example, if C1 can buy apples for 1g (wholesale price) and sell them on at 5g (market price) then their profit is 4g.

Per definition.

If C2 buys at 8g and sells at 10g then their profit is only 2g

It's why supermarkets can be profitable - buy cheap, sell cheap.

Lysette

Cryptical wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

@Vangy @CHIMCHIMCheree

But you never suffer a loss in gold. That is my point. You always profit in both situations.
You assume your materials will sell. It is not a guarantee. Crafting writs are a guarantee.

When farming you literally have 0 expense. Your time and Labor are free.

Gross revenue - expenses =
Net profit.

@imnotanother

Have you tried selling v15 mats? They sell like hot cakes lol. Especially the unrefined ones. Put them on any legit guild trader and they are gone by the end of the day as long as you post them for reasonable prices.......

My friend I am trying to help you here. If you want to refuse the help I understand but the fact still stands, that you are LOSING your precious gold by doing these writs. SAVE YOURSELF WHILE YOU CAN.

P.S -> Jesus..... Labor and time free.... If you tried this in the real world you would be behind bars......

EDIT:

CHIMCHIMCheree wrote: »

You seem like the kind of person who finds $20 on the ground, then exchanges it for $10 and feels awesome about that sweet sweet $10 profit.

^ I know this sounds harsh but the reality of writs is what this guy posted. Your mats are worth more than what writs reward you with which is the exact scenario above.....

The difference of opinion here originated in the difference of when the two of you choose to settle the account, close the business day, count the register, so to speak.

One of you - I'm not going to bother scrolling up for names - is starting the '1 get writ / 2 get resources / 3 fulfill writ' process and is counting the profit left after the 3 steps are complete. The other is starting the same process but is counting the profit only after step 2, and is speculating on the total profit after a different step 3 'sell through guild cart'.

You're having a dumb argument, because you aren't talking about the same thing. And neither of you are wrong, but you both are only right for that exact thing you are focused on.

"Doing the writ" requires doing it completely, no abandoning it in order to redirect mats to a guild trader. If you are taking the mats to the guild trader instead of using them to comets the writ, then you haven't done the writ. Mutual exclusivity.

I personally have an issue with counting profit before it is actually realized, and the "glass half empty" view. Donald trump would have the view that any profit he didn't receive was a loss, I choose to be different than he. Which is why I personally side with accepting that sometimes you don't receive maximum profit, rather than be a money grubber over imaginary money in an imaginary world that only exists as tiny magnetic spots on a hard drive.

Just as a side note - there is no evidence for that the real world is much different to it - just that it might not even take a harddrive at all - it might just be a network of relations, which creates itself out of nothing and auto-induces meaning to it, leading to this phenomena what we call self-conscious life - but we cannot even prove that we have that body, which interacts and experiences the world - that is all just a matter of perception and might not be more real than ESO, rather less.

imnotanother

Waffennacht wrote: »

GwwwsaAaaaaAAAAAA!


TIME HAS A VALUE

There is no such thing as, "free"

Every second you spend farming mats to waste on writs you are NOT doing something MORE profitable

SO in the above arguments, the person farming that keeps saying it's "free" is way off.

To me 1 hour is equivalent to 13 - 20k gold. If i go out. It's to grab roughly 200 mats an hour, I get an average of 1 gold item per stack, so if I do anything and don't get 13k worth of gold, I'm losing money.

Money vanishes out of your bank account?
I get that you are saying, you could have made 20k that hour, but you never actually lost any gold.
Your time is spent how you see it. But in the end, unless you buys mats from a trader, the Cost of goods sold will be
0.

I have the ability to Harvest nodes while questing, grinding, farming, and doing
Dungeons. At all times I can fill my inventory with mats, kill mobs for gold/XP/gear, while gettin CPs.

So you can't really claim opportunity cost either, since you have the ability to do
Multiple things

Lysette

This is basically why some get rich and others don't - some value their time, others don't.

anitajoneb17_ESO

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Lysette

The price of the house is anyway neglectable compared to the price of the property in NYC. It was 90 million US$ per acre in down town Manhattan in 2006.

imnotanother

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Not to be rude but are you an accountant?
An asset, in the books, is valued at the
cost to manufacture. This is the Cost of Goods Sold. You can not list an asset's value for higher than the cost to company.

Lysette

imnotanother wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Not to be rude but are you an accountant?
An asset, in the books, is valued at the
cost to manufacture. This is the Cost of Goods Sold. You can not list an asset's value for higher than the cost to company.

Yes this is by tax reasons this way - a business person does not have just the tax balance, but as well a business balance, and there things are calculated in a much different way. There is as well a way, to "activate" asset which is far more worth than it's book value - if this is required for some economical purpose - one will do this for example, when you want a larger loan from a bank. The bank is not interested into your tax balance, because that is bogus, it wants to know what your business is really worth.

An example - what is the copyright for windows 10 worth?- if you just would count the production costs you would neglect it's market presence and that it's actual value goes into the hundreds of billions of dollars - while it would be just a few million if it would be counted by production costs.

Smitch_59

Writs or no writs, I still farm mats. I do it mainly to refine them for tempers.

I'm then left with stacks of refined mats, which I can either sell in guild stores or use them for writs. Since I have already achieved my primary purpose (refined mats for tempers), anything leftover is just gravy.

Didn't know I needed an accounting degree to play ESO.

Bouldercleave

My REAL problem with writs isn't the perceived net "gain or loss" of completing them.

My issue is why in the heck are we getting inspiration from the top tier writs? If you are already at the top tier in crafting, why would you need inspiration?

If there is a purpose to it, please let me know - but I can't wrap my head around it at all.

Vangy

....

Wow you people are still at it lol... The way I see it, if you want to chuck your mats away on these writs, go right ahead. Ive given my POV and advice. Whether you choose to do it my way or your own is entirely up to you....

But one thing is for certain. These writs are FAR less profitable (in my view now a loss) as compared to the writs pre DLC. So my question is WHY the F is it so? Why were writs effectively nerfed?

Taia

imnotanother wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Not to be rude but are you an accountant?
An asset, in the books, is valued at the
cost to manufacture. This is the Cost of Goods Sold. You can not list an asset's value for higher than the cost to company.

This guy took accounting classes and thinks he's a mathemagician now. What he doesn't know is the accounting classes is where they stick the kids that can't handle real math.

anitajoneb17_ESO

imnotanother wrote: »

But one thing is for certain. These writs are FAR less profitable (in my view now a loss) as compared to the writs pre DLC. So my question is WHY the F is it so? Why were writs effectively nerfed?

This I "know".

Back when Orsinium DLC was on PTS, the tier10 writs were like they are now : requiring 3x VR15 items.

I (among quite a few others) wrote lengthy feedback to ZOS, explaining why it could not possible stay that way, because it was really shooting oneself in the foot (back then, the ONLY way to gain VR15 mats was to farm TelVar stones to buy them, or decon stuff looted on IC mobs at the rate of ONE piece of mat per item looted !!). Back then, ancestor silk was priced 150-200g EACH !!

So ZOS listened and rectified, introducing VR14 mats back into tier 10 equipment writs.

Now things have changed, mats can be "freely" farmed in many places (Wrothgar, Gold Coast, Hew'sBane), they are far more widely available, and prices have gone back to "normal" if not even "cheap". That's why they go back to their original plan of 3 VR15 items per writ.

The problem is : before IC DLC, tier 9 writs were not profitable either !! They had the very same problem. The only reason to do them was to get nirncrux (and to get rid of thousands of excess mats gathered while farming nirncrux). Current tier 10 writ don't have that advantage so yes it's a little bit awkward and misdesigned. It makes little sense to do the writs actually.

Cryptical

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Example
I have thousands of wild blackberry bushes on my property. I go out there in the early summer and am able to pick several pounds (close to 100lbs). This is done on my time for free/fun. My family eats some, we give a lot away to friends/family, and then I sell the rest to my farmers market for money. With your logic, I lost money instead of making a profit. But my heavy wallet says differently.

But like I said, thank you for your concern over my business handling abilities. I'll ensure my employees that you are paying their paychecks this week, since you know more.

I think this analogy is wrong.

Lets say you can sell the blackberries for $1 per pound (sell raw mats). You pick 100 and sell it at the market and make $100 profit.

Or you can make blackberry pies (writs). The pies sell for $2, but each requires 3 lbs of blackberries to make. Your profit is $66.

In both cases you make profit, but in the case of the pies you make less. In this case a loss of $34. Not to mention the time it took to make the pies.

That is not a loss.

At the end of the day you are up $66 or up $100.

Less is not loss.

Walk 1 mile, or walk 1/2 mile. Choosing the half mile does not mean you walked the 1 mile and then backtracked. Derp.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Didn't know I needed an accounting degree to play ESO.

You don't : common sense does the trick very well.
Just... not everyone has common sense... (but took accounting classes !! lol)

Cryptical

Waffennacht wrote: »

GwwwsaAaaaaAAAAAA!


TIME HAS A VALUE

There is no such thing as, "free"

Every second you spend farming mats to waste on writs you are NOT doing something MORE profitable

SO in the above arguments, the person farming that keeps saying it's "free" is way off.

To me 1 hour is equivalent to 13 - 20k gold. If i go out. It's to grab roughly 200 mats an hour, I get an average of 1 gold item per stack, so if I do anything and don't get 13k worth of gold, I'm losing money.

This is the epitome of entitlement thinking. To think that your starting point is 13k per hour and anything less is something that has been taken from you by some manner or method, as if you are entitled to receive 13k-plus for every hour you 'spend' on ESO.

Eso doesn't owe you that. It certainly isn't obligated to cater to your delusional idea of the self-determined worth of your time.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cryptical wrote: »

At the end of the day you are up $66 or up $100.
Less is not loss.

OK. Fine. Let's not call it a loss then. Simply call it an obviously very bad decision, business-wise.
Why the heck would ANYONE choose the less profitable option ??? (especially if you don't serve anyone by doing so. I can understand someone making friends, family and neighbours happy by giving them berries for free or cheap, but I can't understand someone throwing berries away or selling them cheaper than they could for no reason).

In the example of the cake, cooking them DECREASES their value so obviously it is wasted time, energy, and in the end, money. Bad business decisions (even if the wallet isn't thinner at the end of the day).

Back to topic : Crafting writs (or any other stuff to do in ESO) should NOT be designed as a bad decision for the player.

imnotanother

Taia wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Not to be rude but are you an accountant?
An asset, in the books, is valued at the
cost to manufacture. This is the Cost of Goods Sold. You can not list an asset's value for higher than the cost to company.

This guy took accounting classes and thinks he's a mathemagician now. What he doesn't know is the accounting classes is where they stick the kids that can't handle real math.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Didn't know I needed an accounting degree to play ESO.

You don't : common sense does the trick very well.
Just... not everyone has common sense... (but took accounting classes !! lol)

I am sorry you two are taking this so personal! I am not intentionally trying to upset you (I'm not attacking or insulting you either)

But you are clueless about accounting. Yes, I have taken a course because I keep the books for my company.
I have a CPA...

I'm sorry I know what I'm talking about, it is part of being a CEO and CFO of a corporation.

Every city in the US has an organization called "S.C.O.R.E". They are a group of lawyers, accountants, and more that are able to answer your questions and provide advice...for free.

I recommend contacting your local office to educate yourself on the matter.
https://www.score.org/

I_killed_Vivec

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

At the end of the day you are up $66 or up $100.
Less is not loss.

OK. Fine. Let's not call it a loss then. Simply call it an obviously very bad decision, business-wise.
Why the heck would ANYONE choose the less profitable option ??? (especially if you don't serve anyone by doing so. I can understand someone making friends, family and neighbours happy by giving them berries for free or cheap, but I can't understand someone throwing berries away or selling them cheaper than they could for no reason).

In the example of the cake, cooking them DECREASES their value so obviously it is wasted time, energy, and in the end, money. Bad business decisions (even if the wallet isn't thinner at the end of the day).

Back to topic : Crafting writs (or any other stuff to do in ESO) should NOT be designed as a bad decision for the player.

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

anitajoneb17_ESO

imnotanother wrote: »

I recommend contacting your local office to educate yourself on the matter.

A pity I'm not in the USA : I would have had a jolly good time asking them how selling for 5 when I could sell for 10 could NOT be considered a loss. Or at least a very silly decision :-)

While you're at it, you could ask them to explain to you the terms that you keep mixing up here (income, profit, cash, value, cost, price, etc.). You seem very confused about all this.

Cryptical

The people in this thread that claim taking less profit is a 'loss' are involved in the self deception that allows people to think that jacking up prices then having a 50% off sale is 'savings'.

When a store jacks up a price from $100 to $200 and hangs a 50% off sign, you are not actually saving $100... It is a deceptive trick of accounting that only works on paper.

The so-called 'loss' being described by people in this thread for the action of taking less profit than maximum theoretically possible, is also a deceptive trick of accounting that functions on paper alone. Less gain is still gain.

Morimizo

Vangy wrote: »

Just a heads up, I have done all 3 equipment writs across 8 toons over the past 3 days. In a nutshell;

I am now at a net loss of ;
1. Around 50 Rubedite ores per toon --> 400 ore lost
2. Around 40 ash per toon --> 320 ash lost
3. Around 40 silk per toon --> 320 silk lost

In return, I got one wax and one temper --> about 11.5k gold + 660*8*3 = about 27k gold. Bear in mind, tempers and wax are rng so you might not get any.
So breaking it down per toon --> you would lose about 50 of each v15 mat and get around 2k gold in return (not including gold mats) for doing equipment dailies.
You would be better off not relying on RNG and avoiding crafting dailies for equipment writs altogether IMO.

Do at your own risk. Stick to consumables to get kutas at minimal cost. I, personally am going to stop doing any equipment writs until ZOS gets this nonsense sorted.

Even before there was the tenth crafting tier (ruby), it wasn't worth it all. Consumables are worth the investment, even if it's just for surveys. We should not talk about this though, ZOS will nerf or destroy them. So, sshhhh.

I expect that ZOS will never adjust equipment writs to be worthwhile. They can't add an alphabetical sort to the Guild Trader.

ZOS_PeterT

We understand that disagreements do happen however, we would like to remind all to keep comments constructive and positive.

In the future remember that rude, flaming and baiting Comments are against our Forum Rules.

anitajoneb17_ESO

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

Doing writs is... enjoyable ???
How long have you been doing them ? The fun factor has long worn off for me :-)

But yeah if you enjoy doing them and accept a loss in potential gold for the pleasure of the "lottery ticket" effect, fine ! Totally understandable.

Doesn't make non-profitable writs proper design though.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cryptical wrote: »

The people in this thread that claim taking less profit is a 'loss' are involved in the self deception that allows people to think that jacking up prices then having a 50% off sale is 'savings'.

When a store jacks up a price from $100 to $200 and hangs a 50% off sign, you are not actually saving $100... It is a deceptive trick of accounting that only works on paper.

The so-called 'loss' being described by people in this thread for the action of taking less profit than maximum theoretically possible, is also a deceptive trick of accounting that functions on paper alone. Less gain is still gain.

Depends.

If it's something that I would have bought anyway (because I wanted or needed it) at full price and I buy it 50% off, then I actually saved money, concretely.
If it makes me buy something that I would NOT have bought at full price, then it's not saved money, it's just an extra expenditure.

Now please tell me : if you have two people in front of view and you have one item to sell, why wouldn't you sell it to the lowest bidder ? how is that a gain, and how is selling to the highest bidder an "accounting trick that works on paper only" ?

Cryptical

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

Doing writs is... enjoyable ???
How long have you been doing them ? The fun factor has long worn off for me :-)

But yeah if you enjoy doing them and accept a loss in potential gold for the pleasure of the "lottery ticket" effect, fine ! Totally understandable.

Doesn't make non-profitable writs proper design though.

"Proper" is a subjective term. 'Proper', according to the chase for imaginary wealth in an imaginary world? Or 'proper', according to the subjective desires of the player that is NOT YOU.

It's imaginary money, in an imaginary world. Your rules for making decisions need not apply.

STEVIL

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Now please tell me : if you have two people in front of view and you have one item to sell, why wouldn't you sell it to the lowest bidder ? how is that a gain, and how is selling to the highest bidder an "accounting trick that works on paper only" ?

i would sell it to the argonian.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cryptical wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Because doing writs is more enjoyable than simply selling materials.

And there's the lottery factor. "Winning" a glass fragment might not be profitable, but it's an incentive. Maybe today's the day I get a purple recipe... or a kuta... or the hat trick of all three legendary tempers!

It's commonsense really... playing a game for reasons other than in-game financial benefit

Doing writs is... enjoyable ???
How long have you been doing them ? The fun factor has long worn off for me :-)

But yeah if you enjoy doing them and accept a loss in potential gold for the pleasure of the "lottery ticket" effect, fine ! Totally understandable.

Doesn't make non-profitable writs proper design though.

"Proper" is a subjective term. 'Proper', according to the chase for imaginary wealth in an imaginary world? Or 'proper', according to the subjective desires of the player that is NOT YOU.

It's imaginary money, in an imaginary world. Your rules for making decisions need not apply.

It has nothing to do with objective, subjective, or me being egocentric or whatever. It has to do with the fact that completing game content should not be PUNISHING, which equipment writs are more often than not.

anitajoneb17_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Now please tell me : if you have two people in front of view and you have one item to sell, why wouldn't you sell it to the lowest bidder ? how is that a gain, and how is selling to the highest bidder an "accounting trick that works on paper only" ?

i would sell it to the argonian.

That's charity !!! :-)

Taia

imnotanother wrote: »

Taia wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Not to be rude but are you an accountant?
An asset, in the books, is valued at the
cost to manufacture. This is the Cost of Goods Sold. You can not list an asset's value for higher than the cost to company.

This guy took accounting classes and thinks he's a mathemagician now. What he doesn't know is the accounting classes is where they stick the kids that can't handle real math.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Didn't know I needed an accounting degree to play ESO.

You don't : common sense does the trick very well.
Just... not everyone has common sense... (but took accounting classes !! lol)

I am sorry you two are taking this so personal! I am not intentionally trying to upset you (I'm not attacking or insulting you either)

But you are clueless about accounting. Yes, I have taken a course because I keep the books for my company.
I have a CPA...

I'm sorry I know what I'm talking about, it is part of being a CEO and CFO of a corporation.

Every city in the US has an organization called "S.C.O.R.E". They are a group of lawyers, accountants, and more that are able to answer your questions and provide advice...for free.

I recommend contacting your local office to educate yourself on the matter.
https://www.score.org/

Coming from the dramaqueen who was leaving this very thread because it was too "hateful" this is ironic at best. Grow up and learn to admit when you are wrong.