@Dubhliam you're not giving up, I respect that!
But if this PvP justice system can not be forced on everyone, that won't stop everyone to kill every NPC's in towns and steal everything in plain (plane? English is not my native language, sorry) sight without any consequences. That's what upset me the most and the reason I could be for a PvP justice system even if I am a PvE person and don't play PvP at all.
Yet, I think that the justice system as it is can be improved so that a NPC threatening a player to call the guards, actually does, I don't really want a PvP justice system, just a more immersive one where NOT being spotted matters.
Criminals that are not opted in will still fight against immortal Guards. The Hounds companions are however not immortal.
- Wanted Outlaws are able to damage and kill Guards.
I like how you extended a personal invitation to the posters that liked your idea, but conveniently left out the several posters that were opposed but still offered constructive criticism to it, like @Tandor , @STEVIL , and myself.Since the mods did not grant my appeal, this will be a new, clean thread.
@IndyWendieGo , @Tipsy , @NeillMcAttack , we can continue the discussion about PvP Justice here.
EDIT:
Also, as long as you are willing to admit that PvP Justice is about as likely to be implemented as Dragon Mounts and Unicorns, then I personally have no problem with it being discussed.
IndyWendieGo wrote: »Since the mods did not grant my appeal, this will be a new, clean thread.
@IndyWendieGo , @Tipsy , @NeillMcAttack , we can continue the discussion about PvP Justice here.
Since I already made some changes today, I'd like some feedback on a particular problematic:
-added this line in the General section:
- If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
This will actually make non opted Criminals able to enter the Prison instance where PvP penalties are applicable.
How can we prevent this from happening?
How would you deal with opted out players not having enough gold to pay their bounties?
Maybe a bail bondsman somewhere in the system? Maybe in the dialogue along with the court. Activates the bank menu where players could then withdraw the gold and pay things off that way. Maybe also have edicts disabled in there? That could be something that you could potentially explore or nab ideas off of.
How would this "tagging" by enforcers work?So I'll repost feedback I was writting when your previous topic was shut down.
To the FUGITIVE level ,I'd add UNDERCOVER
So i'd scrap the automatic "detection refresh" of enforcers.Check
The criminal awareness would only become active if the criminal player is either tagged by another enforcer & comes in short range of another enforcer.Remember that only NPCs can spot crime, not players.Or when the enforcer catches the criminal commiting more crime.Although open world would now have PvP elements, it should be restricted to Enforcers vs. Outlaws. There should be no fighting among other players, regardless of Alliance.Since each aliance would have their own justice system and agents coming after fugitives,the fugitive also gets a few escape manoeuvres to play with."thats where ther new "undercover" joins the game.
(like we discussed with the different aliance agents coming after a fugitive who've commited crime in 2 or more alliances,being able to pit them against each other and use the chaos to escape)Also knocking npc chasers out with a blackjack weapon,using certain environmental traps,..So it would become an exciting cat and mouse game for both the fugitive and the enforcers.
If the player is caught, they have these option;
-Pay their bounty
-Attempt to flee (the more innocent option where the players who do this remain fugitive as long as they are not arrested, pve-only.Resist arrest impossible if caught.
-Resist all(the "you call this a crime?you can all kiss em" pvp choice) wich enables the wanted mode.The reward will increase over time for the wanted player depending on how long they can stay
out of hands of the enforcers and guards.As the reward will increase for the enforcer depending on how long a criminal has been wanted.
Since enforcer flag themselves to hunt down criminal players,and the criminal chooses the "you can all kiss em" option.It is consensual pvp.
I have considered the "PvE flee option" before, but in the end decided to go with the opt-out route because people need to have an option that has zero interaction with other players.
I'm not sure if your suggestions have opt-out in mind.
It seems hard for me to get people to understand me at times,and I might use terms that seem odd sometimes.Its just that english is not my native language.
I called them agents and not guards because they spawn at the fugitive's location in the wilderness ,and have different AI to hunt down fugitives rather than patrolling cities.
The normal flee is indeed pve flee.But that doesn't take away that enforcers can tag you(which is simply marking you on the map ,making NPC agents aware of your location)
As the fugitive, you have to try to go undercover and there would be different manoeuvres a fugitive can do in an attempt to reduce the time the icon apears above their heads.
So enforcers act as witnesses (for pve flee) and will be notified that there was an outlaw crime in an area
and if enforcers are able to catch on to the fugitive and tag them(also useful for a group of enforcers chasing a fugitive pvp flee)
(no matter if they have chosen "normal pve flee" or "resist all pvp flee")
There will appear an icon above their head ,so enforcers are able to make npc agents aware of the whereabouts of a fugitive in the wilderness.
And the fugitive gets a range of manoeuvres to try to go undercover again.
If the agents catch/kill the fugitive the enforcer gets a boons/reward(less than when they get to kill a fugitive in pvp mode)
If the fugitive is able to go undercover again,points to the outlaw.(reward is also smaller in pve flee mode as they take less risk)
This way pve players and pvp players can choose the style they want as both options are fun & have purpose for both types of players
for the pve flee,players can not directly be accosted by a player enforcer
Next to accost,kill, the tag would be the "tip/give away the location" option
For pve flee ,enforcers could only use the tip/give away location option.
Since the fugitive can benefit from it if he/she is able to go undercover again & the enforcer gets a reward if the fugitive gets caught.(pve flee means accepting surrender to agents or guards,pvp flee means oppose all & everyone can kiss em)
it does serve a purpose for both.
Maybe a refresh tag by enforcers would be too much?Perhaps the tag only refreshes if the fugitive bumps into a group of wandering agents?Or in which circumstances?
Since there would be reward to get without getting involved in pvp for a fugitive,it would be hard to see why any kind of interaction would bother them.
But nothing surprises me nowadays...
But also,if interaction bothers them,then why do they even play an mmo?
I agree, it is an MMO, player interaction should be encouraged.
But still, players should have options.
They should have the ability to avoid interaction if they don't want to participate in such activities.
That is the reason I went for the opt-out approach instead of the PvE flee approach, as seen in your suggestion.
Because there would still be forced player interaction.
That being said, there are some notable ideas in your suggestion worth looking into, and reworking to accommodate the opt-out concept.
Why else play an mmo?
If players don't want interaction they should just go play a single player game.
Yes. Because that's real life. This is A GAME! You know, something people play for fun? I can't get drunk and mow people over with my car in real life, but I can in a game (GTA anyone?), because it's a game. That's the point of games. To do fun things you can't do in real life, like kill people with swords. (And for the record, you DO get accosted in this game. It's just by NPCs, which apparently isn't good enough for some people.)if you drive drunk ,cause an accident and get caught by a police office,you cant just say to the police officer "you cant accost me,I don't want to interact with you, begone"
Its a natural consequence of your behavior that you'll be accosted.
if you drive drunk ,cause an accident and get caught by a police office,you cant just say to the police officer "you cant accost me,I don't want to interact with you, begone"
Its a natural consequence of your behavior that you'll be accosted.
And infact you are in control of what you do(how far you cross the line) and who you interact with.If you choose the flee(pve) option only pve agents can arrest/accost you(and don't forget you have manoeuvres to go undercover when tagged)
The tag itself is unrelated to pve/pvp.You make that choice when you select pve flee or resist all(pvp where you make it clear that everyone can all kiss em)
The tag is in context of being an outlaw of highest level(unrelated to pvp/pve)
Don't forget that the fugitive has manoeuvres to go undercover.
A tag does not mean that guards instantly spawn at your location.But they will walk out of building to chase you ,and roaming groups of agents will show up to chase you.
Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Flagging oneself for PvP sounds simple enough to work. However, I've seen in other games players find ways to force a player to be flagged.
@Tipsy , I appreciate your effort with the suggestions, but I have already set my mind to an opt-out solution instead of the PvE flee.
There is no point discussing it anymore, I won't revert the complete opt-out from the concept.
If you wish to contribute to the concept, please have the suggestions embrace that idea of opting out.
There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
- If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
First thing to remember is that the interaction happens in context of being the highest level of outlaw.Even in PVE now,the environment reacts to that in an adversed way.
There is a condition that has to be met before enforcer are able to tag you;you have to have the highest outlaw level.
.Obviously it was your choice to indulge in such an amount of criminal actvities.
Since pve environment already reacts to you in an adversed way now when you oppose the law,the player tagging you does not change how the environment reacts to you.
It is the standard way the environment reacts to you when you break the law.
So you could also say "why would you spend time in an mmo with all these people you don't know?" Perhaps as an opportunity to meet new players/people?
Interaction with unfamiliar players is not something vile and evil,
I see it as a way to bring players together and an opportunity to make new friends.
Because ,how would you know beforehand its not a player you'd choose to spend time with?
The tag is only temporary and the fugitive has an arsenal of manoeuvres to go undercover and diminish the time the tag remains.The tag looses accuracy of the fugitive's location on the map based on how well the fugitive uses the arsenal of skills that are presented to him/her.
Enemies will not become more aggresive against you because of the tag.A tag simply enables another stage in an attempt to catch the criminal(And its still the choice of the player to chooice flee or resist all.)
It is different from you hitting a player with a damage debuff because there is no relation/context for you giving them a damage debuff if they are grinding.
While here there is a context ;you reached the highest level breaking the law and thus the game enabled a new stage to catch you as a consequence to those actions.(and whether that stage is pve/pvp is your choice)
Well, currently, if accosted by an NPC guard, and you don't have the gold to pay, your only other option (outside of special abilities like clemency) is to choose to flee, correct? So opted-out players would have to escape the guards. Failing to do so would get them killed, and their stolen items repossessed. If they don't have enough gold to pay the bounty, the bounty remains and they could get accosted again.There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
- If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
There are multiple things proposed in this concept that serve to prevent such griefing:starkerealm wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Flagging oneself for PvP sounds simple enough to work. However, I've seen in other games players find ways to force a player to be flagged.
Here's a fun idea, on a NB, blade of woe some poor schmuck in Glenumbra, near the bank. Use Cloak to get to the fountain, and hide. Wait for a player to start spamming heals... WHEEE!
Well, currently, if accosted by an NPC guard, and you don't have the gold to pay, your only other option (outside of special abilities like clemency) is to choose to flee, correct? So opted-out players would have to escape the guards. Failing to do so would get them killed, and their stolen items repossessed. If they don't have enough gold to pay the bounty, the bounty remains and they could get accosted again.There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
- If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
If you are looking for an additional penalty for not being able to pay the bounty when killed (for opted-out players), I'm not sure what to suggest. Their bounty would have gone up when they chose to flee, but you could give them an additional bounty increase (maybe add a "20% more bounty" penalty for not having enough gold?) or something. Seems like a boring solution, but it's something.
Alternately, you could have some kind of PvE version of the Prison system. That would be a whole different thing to design though.
I know your focus is to work on the PvP side of things, but with a full opt-out, you now have the entire other side of the new system (the PvE-only side) to flesh-out as well. That could be a whole thread in itself.
There are multiple things proposed in this concept that serve to prevent such griefing:starkerealm wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Flagging oneself for PvP sounds simple enough to work. However, I've seen in other games players find ways to force a player to be flagged.
Here's a fun idea, on a NB, blade of woe some poor schmuck in Glenumbra, near the bank. Use Cloak to get to the fountain, and hide. Wait for a player to start spamming heals... WHEEE!Needless to say, if someone has the Prevent attacking innocents turned off, he should be careful where he spams his heals.
- The "prevent attacking innocents" option is now turned on by default for new characters. When the "you cannot attack this target..." notification is triggered for the first time, a tutorial is also shown that clearly states attacking innocents is a crime and will grant you a bounty along with instructions where to turn off the prevent attacking innocents option.
- The "prevent attacking innocents" option also prevents players from healing or buffing players engaged in Justice Combat that are not in the same group. Does not apply in Cyrodiil or Imperial City, or when becoming a Wanted.
- The "Auto loot stolen items" option now also applies to items on display.
- Enforcers cannot turn off the "prevent attacking innocents option" and cannot loot stolen goods, pickpocket, and enter any Trespassing area, as well as Outlaw refuges, the Thieves Den or Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary.
I am not quite sure how it works currently on live, but I'll try to do some testing.
That being said, I encourage you to read through the concept and point out any possible exploits or ways to grief in it.
ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »Further, having a “No Theft” toggle would remove interactivity in the world and it would eliminate one of the few non-combat risks that people might encounter. Sometimes even the most careful player will run into a hostile monster by accident (and sometimes they get killed by this), but we do not allow players to toggle off hostility. That would be quite odd, right?
starkerealm wrote: »I'm sorry, are you literally claiming that having a player's character choose to pick up and pocket an item against the wishes of that player is an intended element of difficulty?
@STEVIL
The justice system makes different environmental reactions based on your amount of crime
"
Disreputable – the lowest level. All guards will generally ignore you unless you approach them.
Notorious – You’ll be chased down by the guards, who enlist other guards to assist in the pursuit.
"
as you can see the adversity increases as you keep commiting crime and reach higher levels of the justice system.
It is not the player that increases the adversity;it is the justice level and your doing,as you oppose the law & that makes the game environment react differently to you.
So no,the player tagging you does not change how the environment reacts to you,its the new level of justice system.
And ofcourse ther will be even more adversity in that new level;guards walking out of buildings to chase you,roaming groups of agents you can bump into.
The enforcer is just pawn in the manhunt as he tags you(or can kill you if you resist all).You can counter it by using subterfuge & going undercover again.
Making the mark on the map vanish,or less accurate.
The way I see it,the new justice level would be an enriching addon to the game
If you choose the flee option(pve) the enforcer does not interfere with your situation as you created the situation yourself(infact he does you a favor by tagging you as you'd be rewarded if you can go undercover
so you could take it as a challenge when in the situation of having the hightest criminal level on your head)
The tag is in no way pvp interaction,as the enforcer can not harm you in any way.(if you choose flee at least)
The example you gave of a player hittng a player with a damage buff to someone grinding is a different scenario.In that case there is no consent,but neither is there a right context for that interaction to even happen
in the first place.It would just be senseless.So I agree,in that situation that pve activity would not qualify as consent to establish pvp context
here the interaction happens in an ingame context that is appropriate.And as you choose flee or resist all; there is mutual consent.
It offers free choice to the player;not interested choose flee & only the agents can arrest you ,unless you are able to avoid them long enough and get a reward instead.Enforcers tagging you might even be a blessing
as it increases the reward for you if you are good enough in going undercover.(or it rewards the enforcers if the pve agents arrest you)
If you choose resist all you just tell em all to kiss em & thus you accept that enforcers could take you down(pvp)
I think it fits rather perfectly & has the right context for this addition.
Wouldn't even need to force it into it;the justice system naturally lends itself for the improvement.
@STEVIL
when choosing flee(pve),the player/enforcer tagging you does not interfere,but just brings you to the attention of authorities and the authority takes the hint and could interfere.(if they catch on to you & when you fail to go undercover)
So players blow the whistle on you,expose you but do not interfere.(at least not in the pve option)
They tell authority that something bad is happening in the hope that the authority (roaming pve agents)can interfere and stop it.
There is no "pvp intrusion" as the player has the choice ;flee(pve only without player interference) restist all(pvp options where enforcer are also allowed to interfere)
It is fully consesual.In no way forcing preference on others.
The tag is not related to pvp,but the justice system setup to make it possible for the manhunt to happen,and there will be rewards to win for either the pve enforcer that tags(reward when fugitive gets caught by pve agents in pve mode ,or killed in the resist all mode)
and the fugitive if they can go undercover when tagged(both in pve and pve mode,but in pve mode only PVE agents can interfere)
Infact it can increase your success chances both in the pve flee/pvp resist all option if you successfully go undercover.
All the skills the fugitive has in the arsenal would allow them to counter the tag in the pve mode,or fight back and flee in the pvp mode.
Players can reach the new highest justice level and still enjoy it in a pve-only manner.
In no way is there a "setup for basic pvp or griefing" as players has all the options to choose.
On the contrary,I think these features would bring more player activity to all areas & gives more to enjoy in all areas so older content never goes obselete.
It is the way you look at it...
Well, currently, if accosted by an NPC guard, and you don't have the gold to pay, your only other option (outside of special abilities like clemency) is to choose to flee, correct? So opted-out players would have to escape the guards. Failing to do so would get them killed, and their stolen items repossessed. If they don't have enough gold to pay the bounty, the bounty remains and they could get accosted again.There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
- If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
If you are looking for an additional penalty for not being able to pay the bounty when killed (for opted-out players), I'm not sure what to suggest. Their bounty would have gone up when they chose to flee, but you could give them an additional bounty increase (maybe add a "20% more bounty" penalty for not having enough gold?) or something. Seems like a boring solution, but it's something.
Alternately, you could have some kind of PvE version of the Prison system. That would be a whole different thing to design though.
I know your focus is to work on the PvP side of things, but with a full opt-out, you now have the entire other side of the new system (the PvE-only side) to flesh-out as well. That could be a whole thread in itself.
When a player is opted out. Just have a bed in a prison room that no one else can enter. He can either opt in and try to break out bars or just go to bed and his imprisonment term is over.@Tipsy , I appreciate your effort with the suggestions, but I have already set my mind to an opt-out solution instead of the PvE flee.
There is no point discussing it anymore, I won't revert the complete opt-out from the concept.
If you wish to contribute to the concept, please have the suggestions embrace that idea of opting out.
There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
- If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.