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The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.

  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    @Dubhliam
    I guess its not hard to tell I actually never entered Cyrodiil myself :smiley: very insightful though
    Battle_Spirit.png
    Will there be such a global effect active for new players that take on the role of enforcer or outlaw?

    The concept not promoting intentional pvp ,but looking more like a cat and mose game where outlaws are given strengths to escape and enforcers strengths to pursue,agree that that should be the main focus.
    But just imagine a tank nightblade outlaw to have the extra passive that now reduces damage taken by enforcer by 5/10/15/20%
    Or a dragonknight enforcer tank with unyielding gaurd,reducing damage taken from wanted players by 10/20/30/40%
    When the strengths become combat related i'm a bit concerned about balance still.
    Shouldn't these strengths to escape & strengths to pursue remain unrelated to actual combat strength?
    Imagine if a player can already be that powerful in cyrodiil, how powerful they'd be with the passives you mention there.
    And in that scenario of the prison where the outlaw only has the option to escape left,I bet the oulaw always has to encounter enforcers each attempt to escape?
    but if one of both gets overpowered,combat-wise,I imagine it could become frustrating,rather than fun.
    "
    The Criminal Awareness passive enables Enforces to get a Large circle on the map for 30 seconds when an Outlaw becomes Fugitive,
    indicating an approximate location where the crime was committed. Each subsequent crime spotted while Fugitive will refresh the circle and reduce it's radius.

    "
    So for each crime the outlaw commits,the radius transforms more and more to the exact/accurate location of the outlaw?
    So I assume the outlaw will have the ability to counter that by using subterfuge and by doing certain manoeuvres to go undercover?

    Overall I think the focus on the outlaw's strengths to escape and the enforcers strengths to pursue should reflect more in the proposal.
    Edited by Tipsy on July 31, 2016 9:40AM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have added a new Section at the end called "Discussion Feedback" with the current issues that need resolving or improvement:
    • Players avoiding bounty payment by removing gold from inventory.
    • Swimming Hounds - is it the best solution?
    • Possible exploits and ways to grief.
    • What are your experiences with the current Justice System?

    Also added this line in the PvP Justice rewards, from a suggestion made by @IndyWendiGo:
    • Enforcers are sometimes rewarded with new potions:
    Lawful Immovable Draught
    Become immune to knockback and disabling effects for 11 seconds.
    Restores 6695 Health immediately.
    Grants Major Fortitude which increases your Health Regeneration by 20% for 22,1 seconds.
    Lawful Defending Draught
    Restores 6695 Health immediately.
    Grants Major Fortitude which increases your Health Regeneration by 20% for 22,1 seconds.
    Grants you Minor Protection, reducing your damage taken by 8% for 22,1 seconds.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    I guess its not hard to tell I actually never entered Cyrodiil myself :smiley: very insightful though
    Battle_Spirit.png
    Will there be such a global effect active for new players that take on the role of enforcer or outlaw?
    No, it won't be global, instead similar bonuses will have to be unlocked via the TG/DB or Iron Wheel passives.
    The concept not promoting intentional pvp ,but looking more like a cat and mose game where outlaws are given strengths to escape and enforcers strengths to pursue,agree that that should be the main focus.
    But just imagine a tank nightblade outlaw to have the extra passive that now reduces damage taken by enforcer by 5/10/15/20%
    Or a dragonknight enforcer tank with unyielding gaurd,reducing damage taken from wanted players by 10/20/30/40%
    When the strengths become combat related i'm a bit concerned about balance still.
    Shouldn't these strengths to escape & strengths to pursue remain unrelated to actual combat strength?
    Imagine if a player can already be that powerful in cyrodiil, how powerful they'd be with the passives you mention there.
    Every player in Cyrodiil currently has a 50% damage reduction bonus. Balance (or the lack thereof) on the live servers currently have this damage reduction in mind.
    Since the Battle Spirit buff would not be active outside of Cyrodiil and IC, these proposed passives serve to protect the Justice System participants from getting instantly obliterated in PvP Justice Fights. The numbers might need tweaking, but the general idea is to provide Enforcers with a slight advantage so that Outlaws are discouraged from intentionally fighting Enforcers. While they now actually have the option to fight back (unlike against immortal Gurads), their focus should be on escaping.
    And in that scenario of the prison where the outlaw only has the option to escape left,I bet the oulaw always has to encounter enforcers each attempt to escape?
    but if one of both gets overpowered,combat-wise,I imagine it could become frustrating,rather than fun.
    Actually, no. Not every attempt at fleeing results in a PvP Justice fight. When the Outlaws first exit the Cell room, there is a timer that is counting down. Their group has that much time to finish the dungeon before Enforcers get notified and teleported into the Prison dungeon. The exact amount of time should be carefully picked based on testing results.
    "
    The Criminal Awareness passive enables Enforces to get a Large circle on the map for 30 seconds when an Outlaw becomes Fugitive,
    indicating an approximate location where the crime was committed. Each subsequent crime spotted while Fugitive will refresh the circle and reduce it's radius.

    "
    So for each crime the outlaw commits,the radius transforms more and more to the exact/accurate location of the outlaw?
    So I assume the outlaw will have the ability to counter that by using subterfuge and by doing certain manoeuvres to go undercover?

    Overall I think the focus on the outlaw's strengths to escape and the enforcers strengths to pursue should reflect more in the proposal.

    Note that this circle does not follow the Outlaw (unlike the icon when he is Wanted), it is static.
    I actually like the idea of giving Outlaws an option to increase that radius, but I'm out of ideas how that would work.
    Do you have any specifics?
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    What if there were more roles than just enforcer-Outlaw?

    I'll try to put together a few new skill lines,note that these are not finished in any way and could be unbalanced.
    But they are to give an idea.

    OUTLAW


    DECEIVER OF FOOLS
    For each criminal act that goes unnoticed ,the outlaw gains manoeuvre points to throw dust in the eyes,
    ,pretend they are a bush,place decoys,..

    HIDE CRIME
    decrease the time it takes to hid a crime scene by 1/2/3%

    BlACKJACK
    The ability to knock out witnesses and guards,reducing awareness radius by 1/2/3%

    Morph
    IMPOSTER
    allows the outlaw to take on the form of the blackjack victim for 1 minute

    Morph
    ROBBER
    allows the outlaw to loot the witnesses instead


    passives

    TAKE COVER
    When taking cover,reduces detection radius by 10/20/30%

    AVARICIOUS
    lowers the actual amount of bounty an outlaw has to pay by 2/4/6%

    CONNECTIONS
    When fellow outlaws are near,reduce the accuracy/size of the awareness radius by 1/2/3%


    Royal guard(the players that enforce the law-see the iron wheel skill line)

    AGENTS
    (the players that specialize in tracking the outlaw,but can't see the actual crime be commit)

    CHASE CRIMINAL
    -An area of effect ability that shows the path ran by a criminal ,the intensity of the effect shows how long it has been since the outlaw passed there.
    This ability has a very long cooldown,almost like an ultimate

    SPOT CRIMINAL
    Unlike their fellow royal guard(enforcers) agents,like the npc with the torches that expose the player during certain quests,
    can expose an outlaw that is in stealth/disguise/pretends to be a bush.(still only NPC's can spot the crime,but the agents can spot the outlaw)

    SET TRAPS
    Abilty to set traps in order to catch/slow down outlaw

    Morph
    MASTER TRAPPER
    decreases the detection range of traps for outlaws by 0,5/1/1,5/2 meters.

    Morph
    GADGET TOOLBELT
    the agent gets the ablity to apply special effects to the traps

    Passive skills

    INVESTIGATION
    Increases the chance an agent is able to see the difference between a decoy setup by the outlaw ,from the actual outlaw by 4/8/12%

    SURVIVAL
    When attacked by a wanted outlaw,their healing received increases by 10/20/30/40% for 15 seconds.

    CONNECTIONS
    When friendly agents are near,reduce the cooldown of CHASE criminal by 1/2/3%

    INTERROGATION
    NPCs witnesses will be able to tell the agent if the target outlaw went north,east,south or west


    COURT WIZARD/MAGE
    (with environmental alterations and manipulation the court wizard is able to hinder or trap the outlaw ,Court mages serve agents and the royal guard as a part of the intelligence arm and work behind the front lines)

    OMNIPRESENCE
    Whenever the criminal awareness radius becomes active,a court wizard serves the enforcers and the agents behind the front lines.
    The court mages can conjurate magical items and energy which enforcers and agents can activate/interact with.
    If the awareness radius is active but not accurate,the enforcer and agents are able to invoke the mark of the wizard,if they have collected enough of the magical energy conjured by the court wizard
    Which prolongs outlaw visibility on the map by 1/2/3% if the criminal awareness becomes an accurate representation of the outlaw's location

    POLYMORPH
    The court mage is able to take form and shape of many things when out in the open.
    Though they have a very small awareness radius compared to when they stay behind the front lines

    PORTAL
    As long as the outlaw is uncovered,a court wizard can temporarily port a projection to the proximity of the outlaw in an attempt to hurl paralyzing electric bolts at the outlaw(which the outlaw can dodge)
    Before they are returned to their distant location.The outlaw can destroy the court mage's portal to send them back before the duration has ended.If the outlaw is able to destroy the portal, the court mage gets
    a penalty and can't open a new one for 2 minutes.
    The duration base portal remains active 5/10/15 seconds(long cooldown + penality if destroyed by outlaws)

    Morph
    ARCANE PORTAL
    Instead of a projection the court mage him/herself ports to the uncovered outlaw,and gains access to a few more spells(amnesia,..) in an attempt to slow the outlaw down.
    But the court mage can be killed since he/she is physically there.If the outlaw is able to take down the court wizard,the outlaw gains "cloak of the wizard" ,giving the outlaw great opportunity to escape.
    Fellow justice characters can channel portal energy so that the court wizard can return to safety,if not murdered by an outlaw

    LASTING PORTAL
    It remains a projection of the court wizard, with 1 spell to attempt to slow down an outlaw.But the duration is increased to 25 seconds
    And enforcers and agents can assist to power the portal so it remains open longer

    Passive skills

    SOULGIFT
    increases the duration enforcers and agents are able to carry around magical energy conjured by the court wizard in the awareness radius by 1/2/3% before it expires

    POWER OF MIND
    Increases the potency of magical energy conjured over long distance by 1/2/3% ,agents can also use the energy now to imbue traps with,..

    CLOAK OF THE WIZARD
    Reduces damage taken from Wanted players by 5/10/15% and reduces the chances outlaws can steal the magical essence of the cloak by 2/4/6%

    AID OF THE INTELLIGENCE ARM
    Can keep track of all the spots where NPCs spotted the outlaw committing crime
    Edited by Tipsy on July 31, 2016 2:10PM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I have added a new Section at the end called "Discussion Feedback" with the current issues that need resolving or improvement:
    • Players avoiding bounty payment by removing gold from inventory.
    • Swimming Hounds - is it the best solution?
    • Possible exploits and ways to grief.
    • What are your experiences with the current Justice System?

    Also added this line in the PvP Justice rewards, from a suggestion made by @IndyWendiGo:
    • Enforcers are sometimes rewarded with new potions:
    Lawful Immovable Draught
    Become immune to knockback and disabling effects for 11 seconds.
    Restores 6695 Health immediately.
    Grants Major Fortitude which increases your Health Regeneration by 20% for 22,1 seconds.
    Lawful Defending Draught
    Restores 6695 Health immediately.
    Grants Major Fortitude which increases your Health Regeneration by 20% for 22,1 seconds.
    Grants you Minor Protection, reducing your damage taken by 8% for 22,1 seconds.

    players avoiding bounty payments by being poor or at least poorer than the escalated bounties produced by the new system:
    Current rules dont have rapidly escalating multipliers on bounties turning an ooops and scramble into a massive bounty- and current system is simple - if you dont have the gold your bounty remains. Last i checked this did not bring the game crashing down around our ears. But changing those rules to make it take more player time to "resolve" the higher bounties and more frequent shortages your system can produce will help settle the issue of "do casual even try the injustice activities a second time."

    Swimming hounds - which basically turns the hounds into unkillable while they maul the helpless player unless the player gets back onto dry land where, basically, he can be spotted by more guards. Consider adding "if the characater runs outside an area guards can go, the hounds become unkillable and keep up pursuit, to make land and sea on par and equally much a hose for the uninformed. This will help settle the issue of "do casual even try the injustice activities a second time."

    Exploits and griefs - being able to spawn guards where others can be affected (as mentioned before.) is pretty big unless one is just are ok with players getting a somewhat direct interfere. Probably they just deserve it for continuing to try to play injustice activities. There were others mentioned several times and not addressed. This will help settle the issue of "do casual even try the injustice activities a second time."

    My experiences with the current injustice activities -
    its on par with other casual repeatable solo activities players can spend their time at (delving, grinding, questing) in terms of difficulty, risk and gains over time. A player who knows what they are doing can make profit with little risk just like those other activities provide. So it seems currently OK. Its not a problem or an abuse needing drastic overhaul and a pvp insert.

    That said, adding a lot more justice content including an entire justice DLC, new guild, repeatable missions, world bosses new delves etc etc etc (see list repeated previously) would be great as i and others have suggested often, just without pvp inroads.
    i hope these expansions get considered without a poison pill pvp outside cyrodil add-on.

    one area it might be especially worth pursuing in the expansion of pve content in a justice dlc, to try and bring new players in is a GROUP repeatable content of some sort.like the two new world bosses proposed for the justice DLC but instead for injustice activities. having a setup where for instance on player distracts guards while others move to the target - would be fun for some even though not for me. But adding some group justice/injustice content may bring new players who prefer grouping into the currently solo activity. The current TG world bosses aren't really about injustice... no stealing required just more commonplace world boss stuff.

    You could even have the SAME world boss or delves setup with two different quest givers. take giver-j and get mission objectives related to justice - like saving hostages and capturing bad guys. Accept quest from giver-I and get the same area but different injustice related activities - not just name changes but actual different objectives (that dont clash.) helps with the repeatability of those repeatables/dailies.

    Any of these could be setup in heist/sacrament form or with normal and veteran options, open to all who have the content without requiring pvp flag opt-in. hardly anyone i think wants the introduction of "new content" whether for pvp or for pve being dependent on completing/engaging the other type of material. i can imagine the screams if arenas for pvp required beating VMSA.

    Note none of these suggestions should at all require boosting the difficulty of the existing casual repeatable content as discouraging players from engaging in such activities is not the goal of my proposal. i want more content, more players more types of challenges not a major difficulty up for PVE to dribe folks toward the PVP options. I especially dont want to promote any "less competitive" pvp expansion into PVE territories.



    Edited by STEVIL on July 31, 2016 1:51PM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Tipsy , usually when working on my concept, I try to make things as simple as possible.
    Even if the concept text might seem overwhelming, this is mostly just details of a simple system. You can notice how small the changes actually are just by reading through the "TL:DR" section:
    • The Justice System remains mainly intact as long as the Outlaw has no bounty. Other PCs cannot interact with or spot crimes.
    • Players have an option to mark themselves as "Outlaws", opting them in for participation in PvP Justice activities. Regular Criminals are opted out.
    • When the Outlaw gets spotted doing a crime by an NPC, and has a bounty, he is eligible to be accosted by Enforcers (pops the "pay bounty" dialogue). Higher bounties help Enforcers to locate Outlaws more easily.
    • By choosing the "flee" option in the "pay bounty dialogue" Outlaws can get marked for PvP fights, and that mark is disabled when the Heat (not bounty) is depleted.
    • Other notable additions are Hounds (mortal Guard companions), new- PvP mode for Heists and Sacraments, the new Prison instance and a law enforcer storyline.
    Simplicity is why I was reluctant to include another, separate Prison instance just for the purpose of preventing people from avoiding bounty payment.
    However, there have been no better solutions, so I will include it now in the concept these lines will be spread through various sections):
    • There are also different kinds of repeatable quests called "Community Service" quests. Those include anything from escorting Merchants, delivering crafting crates, finding lost pets and other.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bountypresented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • By choosing the "Go to Court" option in the "pay bounty" dialogue instead of paying or fleeing, Outlaws are now transferred to an instanced dungeon called Prison. Before being transferred to their cells, players are presented to the Court, where the player is given called Court, where Outlaws are presented with three options: Withdraw Funds from Bank, Go to Prison, where players get transferred to another, group instance, or an one-time option to fight for freedom in the Arena*. Winning a duel will clear that player's bounty without the gold penalty and transfer him/her out of Prison. Losing has no additional penalty.
    To reduce the amount of new instances, the Solitary Cell instance should be the same instance as the Court instance, as they are both individual player instances.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    And so we see this
    When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.

    Inflated bounty even higher
    Literally prevented from participating in injustice activities (reducing numbers playing those casual solo activities)
    Gold removed magically so no repairs for a while, no paying off folks in quests forvthe numerous cases in quests where you pay off informant, etc resulting in impact outside scope of justice-injustice.
    Overall significant increase in penalties-risk over current system with no corresponding commensurate gain in rewards on the pve sides OR hey there is the just accept pvp option to wipe the deficit was there.

    Really seems like for some pve injustice wont pay butbpvp justice has more favorable options.

    Opt-out really seems to be more opt-out of injustice activities altogether.



    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Cously
    Cously
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm surprised we don't have a prison system in ESO considering the story of the franchise with prisons and the like.
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Cously wrote: »
    I'm surprised we don't have a prison system in ESO considering the story of the franchise with prisons and the like.

    Well there are numerous cases where during quests you get thrown into cells and the like. they all tend to be setup so you get out of the cell after a few clicks of dialog and are then off and on with your activities in very short order and iirc in all cases you can wayshrine out to go do other stuff if you want.

    ESO was designed with a common element that you are not locked into any activity for a period of time. I dont know of any cases at all where casual repeatable activities (solo or group) would result in any locked into situations.

    There may be exceptions - those couple of quest specific stages where you jump into the past for a few minutes - though I never tested whether or not you could shrine out of those. They were always so brief, never wanted to.

    That overall design pattern would seem to make some sort of prison that keeps you into the prison content out of sorts unless its just a couple minutes.

    I think the difference is that being an MMO, unlike a standalone game where it is just you, locking a character out of "all the other activities" is a serious thing - not just the current set of circumstances to play thru - and can have profound impacts on the group and team side of things.

    Just my thoughts
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Cously
    Cously
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Cously wrote: »
    I'm surprised we don't have a prison system in ESO considering the story of the franchise with prisons and the like.

    Well there are numerous cases where during quests you get thrown into cells and the like. they all tend to be setup so you get out of the cell after a few clicks of dialog and are then off and on with your activities in very short order and iirc in all cases you can wayshrine out to go do other stuff if you want.

    ESO was designed with a common element that you are not locked into any activity for a period of time. I dont know of any cases at all where casual repeatable activities (solo or group) would result in any locked into situations.

    There may be exceptions - those couple of quest specific stages where you jump into the past for a few minutes - though I never tested whether or not you could shrine out of those. They were always so brief, never wanted to.

    That overall design pattern would seem to make some sort of prison that keeps you into the prison content out of sorts unless its just a couple minutes.

    I think the difference is that being an MMO, unlike a standalone game where it is just you, locking a character out of "all the other activities" is a serious thing - not just the current set of circumstances to play thru - and can have profound impacts on the group and team side of things.

    Just my thoughts

    There are several other games with prison systems, I find it a very interesting concept, a way of escape could be provided as well like in the single player games, where you would get a bounty if detected. If one wants to avoid jail then don't do the bad deed or don't get caught. As for the gameplay in prison, there is this mod that is quite fun:

    http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/26281/?

    It could either be a single cell or a complex like Cidnah mine with activities to do to lower your time there. There is a lot of fun to be had in prison! I mean what...
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Cously wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Cously wrote: »
    I'm surprised we don't have a prison system in ESO considering the story of the franchise with prisons and the like.

    Well there are numerous cases where during quests you get thrown into cells and the like. they all tend to be setup so you get out of the cell after a few clicks of dialog and are then off and on with your activities in very short order and iirc in all cases you can wayshrine out to go do other stuff if you want.

    ESO was designed with a common element that you are not locked into any activity for a period of time. I dont know of any cases at all where casual repeatable activities (solo or group) would result in any locked into situations.

    There may be exceptions - those couple of quest specific stages where you jump into the past for a few minutes - though I never tested whether or not you could shrine out of those. They were always so brief, never wanted to.

    That overall design pattern would seem to make some sort of prison that keeps you into the prison content out of sorts unless its just a couple minutes.

    I think the difference is that being an MMO, unlike a standalone game where it is just you, locking a character out of "all the other activities" is a serious thing - not just the current set of circumstances to play thru - and can have profound impacts on the group and team side of things.

    Just my thoughts

    There are several other games with prison systems, I find it a very interesting concept, a way of escape could be provided as well like in the single player games, where you would get a bounty if detected. If one wants to avoid jail then don't do the bad deed or don't get caught. As for the gameplay in prison, there is this mod that is quite fun:

    http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/26281/?

    It could either be a single cell or a complex like Cidnah mine with activities to do to lower your time there. There is a lot of fun to be had in prison! I mean what...

    Not arguing that prison scenarios are not fun if done well, just that locked into content is not something ESO does and imo that a good decision. Many players only have one character so getting stuck in prison could have serious impact on whether they can play the game.

    It would be possible but not at all something i would want to see implemented as consequences for casual solo activities, maybe as a specific quest line with warning.

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cously wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Cously wrote: »
    I'm surprised we don't have a prison system in ESO considering the story of the franchise with prisons and the like.

    Well there are numerous cases where during quests you get thrown into cells and the like. they all tend to be setup so you get out of the cell after a few clicks of dialog and are then off and on with your activities in very short order and iirc in all cases you can wayshrine out to go do other stuff if you want.

    ESO was designed with a common element that you are not locked into any activity for a period of time. I dont know of any cases at all where casual repeatable activities (solo or group) would result in any locked into situations.

    There may be exceptions - those couple of quest specific stages where you jump into the past for a few minutes - though I never tested whether or not you could shrine out of those. They were always so brief, never wanted to.

    That overall design pattern would seem to make some sort of prison that keeps you into the prison content out of sorts unless its just a couple minutes.

    I think the difference is that being an MMO, unlike a standalone game where it is just you, locking a character out of "all the other activities" is a serious thing - not just the current set of circumstances to play thru - and can have profound impacts on the group and team side of things.

    Just my thoughts

    There are several other games with prison systems, I find it a very interesting concept, a way of escape could be provided as well like in the single player games, where you would get a bounty if detected. If one wants to avoid jail then don't do the bad deed or don't get caught. As for the gameplay in prison, there is this mod that is quite fun:

    http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/26281/?

    It could either be a single cell or a complex like Cidnah mine with activities to do to lower your time there. There is a lot of fun to be had in prison! I mean what...

    There is an elaborate section on the Outlaw Prison idea presented in this concept:
    Outlaw Prison
    • By choosing the "Go to Court" option in the "pay bounty" dialogue instead of paying or fleeing, Outlaws are now transferred to an instance called Court, where Outlaws are presented with three options: Withdraw Funds from Bank, Go to Prison, where players get transferred to another, group instance, or an one-time option to fight for freedom in the Arena*. Winning a duel will clear that player's bounty without the gold penalty and transfer him/her out of Prison. Losing has no additional penalty.
    • Outlaws are automatically grouped upon entering, without the ability to leave group or disband.
    • Outlaws lose all their stolen items when going to prison. All lockpicks and pardon Edicts get marked as Stolen and are stored along with other stolen items into a random container inside the Prison which cannot be looted by other players.
    • A "Spare Guard Uniform" disguise can be found in one random container inside Prison, that can be worn as a tabard. Wearing it enables the player to be unnoticed by Guards or Enforcers. Finding it unlocks an achievement that grants the Guard costume (vanity only).
    • When the heat and bounty of an Outlaw wears off, a portal is spawned inside the cell that takes the player out of Prison. The portal is not visible to and interactable by other players.
    • The Prison dungeon has 6 cells and can host up to 6 Outlaw players, and up to 6 Enforcers that can port to the instance if it goes to high alert.
    • Inside each cell there is exactly 1 stolen lockpick that can be found to pick the cell lock with. Taking the lockpick starts the shareable "Prison Break" quest. Players that open their cell doors may also go and pick the doors of other locked players, but cannot enter cells other than their own.
    • The area outside the cell room is marked as Trespassing to Outlaws, marking them constantly as Wanted. This is the only Trespassing area Enforcers are able to visit, and Trespassing does not apply to them.
    • Getting seen by a Guard or Enforcer while inside the Prison automatically locks your cell door permanently.
    • Players that are killed by a Guard or Enforcer inside the Prison, and do not have enough gold to cover the bounty, are then transferred to their permanently locked cell. Otherwise, they get transferred out of Prison.
    • Leaving the room with the cells automatically starts a visible dungeon timer that is shared among all Outlaws that leave the cell room. Getting noticed outside the cell room by a guard subtracts 1 minute from the timer. After the time expires, the instance goes to High Alert and On-Duty Enforcers get a queue notification to enter that instance.
    • The first part of the instance is crawling with guards, some of which have Clairvoyance. The second part of the dungeon is purely PvE, and has no NPC Guards. Once inside the second part of Prison, it is impossible to return to the first part of the Prison.
    • To get to the exit, Outlaws have to beat a few mini bosses and a Final boss in the second, PvE part of the prison. Monsters are also aggressive to Enforcers. The Final Boss is stationary, and clairvoyant. The Minibosses cannot be reset once aggroed, and will follow any players still alive until killed.
    • Players may only be resurrected by other Outlaws while a Miniboss or Boss fight is ongoing, and there in no "wayshrine respawn point" if the group wipes.
    * - this is true provided Dueling Arenas are implemented at the same time or before implementing PvP Justice.

    On an unrelated note, I have added some more changes:
    • Guards now have the Dawnbreaker of Smiting ultimate and Silver Leash added to their skill pool.
    • Fast travel is disabled while in the Court/Solitary or Prison instance.

    The fast travel is obvious, I just forgot to write it down.
    As far as FG skills go, I think vampires have a huge advantage when escaping PvE Guards, so FG are added to add at least some risk for vampires (undead).
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Cously wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Cously wrote: »
    I'm surprised we don't have a prison system in ESO considering the story of the franchise with prisons and the like.

    Well there are numerous cases where during quests you get thrown into cells and the like. they all tend to be setup so you get out of the cell after a few clicks of dialog and are then off and on with your activities in very short order and iirc in all cases you can wayshrine out to go do other stuff if you want.

    ESO was designed with a common element that you are not locked into any activity for a period of time. I dont know of any cases at all where casual repeatable activities (solo or group) would result in any locked into situations.

    There may be exceptions - those couple of quest specific stages where you jump into the past for a few minutes - though I never tested whether or not you could shrine out of those. They were always so brief, never wanted to.

    That overall design pattern would seem to make some sort of prison that keeps you into the prison content out of sorts unless its just a couple minutes.

    I think the difference is that being an MMO, unlike a standalone game where it is just you, locking a character out of "all the other activities" is a serious thing - not just the current set of circumstances to play thru - and can have profound impacts on the group and team side of things.

    Just my thoughts

    There are several other games with prison systems, I find it a very interesting concept, a way of escape could be provided as well like in the single player games, where you would get a bounty if detected. If one wants to avoid jail then don't do the bad deed or don't get caught. As for the gameplay in prison, there is this mod that is quite fun:

    http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/26281/?

    It could either be a single cell or a complex like Cidnah mine with activities to do to lower your time there. There is a lot of fun to be had in prison! I mean what...

    There is an elaborate section on the Outlaw Prison idea presented in this concept:
    Outlaw Prison
    • By choosing the "Go to Court" option in the "pay bounty" dialogue instead of paying or fleeing, Outlaws are now transferred to an instance called Court, where Outlaws are presented with three options: Withdraw Funds from Bank, Go to Prison, where players get transferred to another, group instance, or an one-time option to fight for freedom in the Arena*. Winning a duel will clear that player's bounty without the gold penalty and transfer him/her out of Prison. Losing has no additional penalty.
    • Outlaws are automatically grouped upon entering, without the ability to leave group or disband.
    • Outlaws lose all their stolen items when going to prison. All lockpicks and pardon Edicts get marked as Stolen and are stored along with other stolen items into a random container inside the Prison which cannot be looted by other players.
    • A "Spare Guard Uniform" disguise can be found in one random container inside Prison, that can be worn as a tabard. Wearing it enables the player to be unnoticed by Guards or Enforcers. Finding it unlocks an achievement that grants the Guard costume (vanity only).
    • When the heat and bounty of an Outlaw wears off, a portal is spawned inside the cell that takes the player out of Prison. The portal is not visible to and interactable by other players.
    • The Prison dungeon has 6 cells and can host up to 6 Outlaw players, and up to 6 Enforcers that can port to the instance if it goes to high alert.
    • Inside each cell there is exactly 1 stolen lockpick that can be found to pick the cell lock with. Taking the lockpick starts the shareable "Prison Break" quest. Players that open their cell doors may also go and pick the doors of other locked players, but cannot enter cells other than their own.
    • The area outside the cell room is marked as Trespassing to Outlaws, marking them constantly as Wanted. This is the only Trespassing area Enforcers are able to visit, and Trespassing does not apply to them.
    • Getting seen by a Guard or Enforcer while inside the Prison automatically locks your cell door permanently.
    • Players that are killed by a Guard or Enforcer inside the Prison, and do not have enough gold to cover the bounty, are then transferred to their permanently locked cell. Otherwise, they get transferred out of Prison.
    • Leaving the room with the cells automatically starts a visible dungeon timer that is shared among all Outlaws that leave the cell room. Getting noticed outside the cell room by a guard subtracts 1 minute from the timer. After the time expires, the instance goes to High Alert and On-Duty Enforcers get a queue notification to enter that instance.
    • The first part of the instance is crawling with guards, some of which have Clairvoyance. The second part of the dungeon is purely PvE, and has no NPC Guards. Once inside the second part of Prison, it is impossible to return to the first part of the Prison.
    • To get to the exit, Outlaws have to beat a few mini bosses and a Final boss in the second, PvE part of the prison. Monsters are also aggressive to Enforcers. The Final Boss is stationary, and clairvoyant. The Minibosses cannot be reset once aggroed, and will follow any players still alive until killed.
    • Players may only be resurrected by other Outlaws while a Miniboss or Boss fight is ongoing, and there in no "wayshrine respawn point" if the group wipes.
    * - this is true provided Dueling Arenas are implemented at the same time or before implementing PvP Justice.

    On an unrelated note, I have added some more changes:
    • Guards now have the Dawnbreaker of Smiting ultimate and Silver Leash added to their skill pool.
    • Fast travel is disabled while in the Court/Solitary or Prison instance.

    The fast travel is obvious, I just forgot to write it down.
    As far as FG skills go, I think vampires have a huge advantage when escaping PvE Guards, so FG are added to add at least some risk for vampires (undead).

    Added an ultimate usable against everyone because... because... yeah vampires thats it vampires have it too easy.
    Now some designers, if they were concerned about scope might have thought "hey i got a bug up my butt about vampires so since they have it too easy lets make guards have more fire based attacks which will be trouble for vamps but not also slam others."

    Make the pve option worse and worse, fewer people participate in the pve activities.

    Seems simple enough.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
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    During the extensive hours of testing while also completing my Justice achievements, I encountered numerous bug with Guards.
    One particular bug was re-occurring constantly, but I never thought I could bug out the Guards three times in a row.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
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    During the few days of testing I managed to Flee from guards 75 consecutive times.
    Yes, 100% success rate, all I use are two skills: Retreating Maneuvers (rarely) and Elusive Mist (often).

    Here is another video where I escape a guard with zero effort and no risk.

    You can also clearly see how the Guard is casting Talons while I am not nearly in range to be rooted by them, taking small breaks along the way.
    Later you see Guards don't detect players after they reset, while returning to their starting position of pursuit.
    I don't have video proof yet, but I believe Guards don't detect other criminal players while chasing a specific player.
    I once passed by another player that clearly got caught red handed while a Guard was chasing me. The Guards paid no attention to the other player, and why would he? His attention (aggro) is on me, and the Guard in pursuit won't get distracted by other criminals. That is just how the game works.
    I'll try to get a player to help me recreate such a situation to film it.

    This is the answer to some player's concern that spawnable Guards would be abused to grief. They cannot, the game already prevents such abuse.

    Also, at the end there is a wolf chasing me along with the Guard. Note that I am an AD character in Stormhaven - this is my Gold zone. Just to show how little impact the Hounds would have in combat with this proposed Justice System.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Re this
    During the few days of testing I managed to Flee from guards 75 consecutive times.

    During over 365 day of testing I managed to slaughter countless of adversaries in groups of 1-3 (sometimes more) in casual repeatable solo activities including grinding and delving (dailies) over a thousand times with no deaths, not one.

    This is not to say i have not died in over a year - VMSA, some public dungeons and world bosses and unfortunately falling damage have been the culprits more often than not.

    Also, in the first year of play, early on, when i didn't know what i was doing, i died more often.

    Question for anyone listening: How often do you get killed in casual solo activities? Got any videos of you grinding without dying you want to share?
    Edited by STEVIL on August 1, 2016 5:33PM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Re this
    Also, at the end there is a wolf chasing me along with the Guard. Note that I am an AD character in Stormhaven - this is my Gold zone. Just to show how little impact the Hounds would have in combat with this proposed Justice System.

    Wolves aren't usual in towns.

    In this example, the criminal runs out of the area and then gets the wolves - edge of guard search area etc.

    This is very different from being engaged INSIDE A TOWN by guards and hounds. As i have stated before the risk is fighting the wolves and having guards catch up or engage.

    Also, the increased detection rad, swim out and maul, etc make a difference to the overall difficulty with no commensurate gain in compensation for this casual repeatable solo activity.

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    RE this
    Yes, 100% success rate, all I use are two skills: Retreating Maneuvers (rarely) and Elusive Mist (often).

    I assume this is aimed at supporting the add of an ultimate using vampires as the justification?

    if so, let me say as a justification - not even a near miss.

    I mean are you saying that currently you cannot escape guards regularly WITHOUT being a vamp, without using elusive mist?

    If having elusive really a significant gain to escape guards - then that means the chance of failure is significantly worse without it.

    If both being a vamp and not being a vamp have the same "almost always" to "always" get away chances when you know what you are doing then vamps aren't getting any edge... they are just using different skills.

    if it is JUST VAMPS that can get away from guards easily, then one would think about adding a counter to deal with JUST VAMPS not an ultimate that is quite good against most anything.

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
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    Added another point in the Discussion Feedback section:
    • How to deal with vampire escape capabilities? Dawnbreaker ultimate in Guard arsenal, is it overkill?

    As seen from the footage above, it is extremely easy to escape a guard with the Elusive Mist skill.
    Do you think it is a large penalty for players if Guards now have the Dawnbreaker of Smiting ultimate?
    Would it be acceptable if they cast it only on vampire players?
    Or is the Silver Leash change enough? I believe it would be a great replacement for Unrelenting Grip Guards currently use.

    On a side note, once the servers come back up, I just might do some more testing without using Elusive Mist.
    Just for comparison, if not being a vampire is really that much harder.
    Although I already believe I know the answer to that.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    RE this
    As seen from the footage above, it is extremely easy to escape a guard with the Elusive Mist skill.
    Do you think it is a large penalty for players if Guards now have the Dawnbreaker of Smiting ultimate?
    Would it be acceptable if they cast it only on vampire players?
    Or is the Silver Leash change enough? I believe it would be a great replacement for Unrelenting Grip Guards currently use.


    As seen everyday in play it is easy to succeed at all the casual solo repeatable activities if you know what you are doing and prepared - escaping guards with or without mist is no exception.

    Silver leash vs unrelenting grip - does this give guards a longer range + reposition than they have now? That is a pretty serious upgrade if so.

    Finally, on the ult vs leash - a standard influence technique is to offer a bigger over the top proposal and then "compromise" back to the place you wanted to get in the first place. From that perspective the ult+leash down to leash would be considered skillful.

    Of course, since casual repeatable solo injustice activities are not more profitable over or easier than their counterparts currently in the game (such as grinding and delving) and the non-vamps dont have a hard time escaping guards either - neither the ult nor the leash is needed or in keeping with the comparable content.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Ok so to be helpful

    A quick search on google looking for "eso grinding videos" will show you plenty plenty plenty more than 75 successful attempts.

    here is just one



    but there are plenty.

    it would seem there is ample video evidence to back up the position that solo casual repeatable activities in eso are extremely easy to succeed at if you know what you are doing and are prepared.

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
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    @Dubhliam
    The basics need to be presented as simple as possible to avoid people to be overwhelmed,true
    I think the justice system is about bringing new options for players to the game.
    Providing players with even more ingame options for justice gameplay will only see to it that the system grows in complexity..
    This is not a problem I think ,if you have a solid foundation.
    When you write it out it sometimes seems complex,but thats not a reason for not to include it.
    There is still a lot of room for improvement I believe,judging from your videos.

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    [*] When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    [*] By choosing the "Go to Court" option in the "pay bounty" dialogue instead of paying or fleeing, Outlaws are now transferred to an instanced dungeon called Prison. Before being transferred to their cells, players are presented to the Court, where the player is given called Court, where Outlaws are presented with three options: Withdraw Funds from Bank, Go to Prison, where players get transferred to another, group instance, or an one-time option to fight for freedom in the Arena*. Winning a duel will clear that player's bounty without the gold penalty and transfer him/her out of Prison. Losing has no additional penalty.[/list]
    To reduce the amount of new instances, the Solitary Cell instance should be the same instance as the Court instance, as they are both individual player instances.


    I'd do "bail bondsman choice" differently
    So the bounty is transformed to debt ,I follow that part.
    Still, that debt is good for a certain amount of jailtime if the player choosing this option cant meet the condition of paying off the debt while enjoying the provisional release.
    Community service will reduce the debt.Stealing items will add 400 debt for 1 item,second steal 1000 debt,3rd stealth attempt ;the conditions are violated in such a way that the criminal is send back to jail. (here comes the penalty 5% extra bounty to pay off )
    If however the criminal shows good behavior by doing activities like community service,that "good time" is counted towards time served.
    So lets say a criminal/outlaw has a bounty of 30 000 ,sat out 15 OOO in prison & paid off 15000 debt by doing community service ,the player becomes upholding again.

    Or if the criminal outlaw had a bounty/debt of 30000 and is only able to pay off 10000 with community service,the other 20000 still needs to be paid,or sat out in jail.

    But if the criminal /outlaw has a bounty of 30 000 ,sat out 15 000 in prison & commits crime during bondsman choice,the penalty of 750 is added + 400 + 1000( + the penalties and debt of any other crime.)
    So the criminal goes back to prison again with at least 17.150 debt/bounty.(maybe even a debt/bounty higher as before if he/she is not careful)
    Murder would add 2000 for each victim while under conditions of the bondsman,instead of 3 chances with stealing,
    guards would try to recatch you immediately for murder..

    I wouldn't take away the ability to commit crime,but make them pay dearly if they violate the release conditions
    If they behave badly while promising they 'll behave,thats all they deserve.
    Edited by Tipsy on August 1, 2016 8:18PM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    The Plight of the Undead Problem

    Problem Statement (Why do this?)
    1 It is too easy to kill undead in casual repeatable gameplay. Numerous videos show you case after case where undead (and even daedra) are killed in countless numbers.
    2 It is worth more to kill undead (and daedra) than many of the other repeatable casual solo activities because in addition to the routine gains in xp and loot you also gain xp in the fighter’s guild skill line. So, on top of all the usual rewards killing undead (or daedra) gives you a bonus advancement that can lead to it being even easier to kill others later.
    3 It upsets some sensitive vampire character players to have to watch their kinfolk butchered like this and not be allowed to go after, hunt down and kill the offenders. Some may even feel they are complicit in standing around and doing nothing to help as their kinfolkare maimed and butchered like dogs in the street.

    Start of Solution Proposal: BloodScent system

    Every time a character kills an undead the character is marked by the blood of the vampire they have slain. Each additional kill adds more bloodscent taint. This taint can be cleansed by special priests in set locations, at a cost, or will gradually fade over time. Other special salts andf such can be obtained which can remove some or all of a character’s bloodscent.

    All loot taken from undead is covered with bloodscent until sold or deconned. Most vendors wont purchase bloodscented items for fear of angering certain elements of their customer base (with possibly disastrous results.) So selling scented items is only possible at a few places (relative to normal stuff.) No bank will accept scented items. Decon on a scented item will produce minimal yield.

    Opt-out vs opt-in

    There are two tiers of the Bloodscent system – opt-in and opt-out.
    Opt-out is the default and means the PVP elements wont be enabled. Under opt-out the difficulties and penalties are raised significantly without any significant increase in payouts. Vampire NPCs popping out at inconvenient times, even during quests, certain merchants just refusing to do any business with you for even clean goods, ever escalating scent rates from multiple kills and possibly being rendered unable to even fight undead at all for a time even as part of questing.
    Opt-in enables a PVP component, allowing vampire characters to spot, get first strike and hunt down certain bloodscented characters. Rewards are increased for those who opt-in.

    Details on the structure yet to be determined.

    This could be a wonderful addition to a vampire/werewolf themed DLC which has been rumored...

    Right?
    Edited by STEVIL on August 1, 2016 8:15PM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Tipsy wrote: »
    @Dubhliam
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    [*] When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    [*] By choosing the "Go to Court" option in the "pay bounty" dialogue instead of paying or fleeing, Outlaws are now transferred to an instanced dungeon called Prison. Before being transferred to their cells, players are presented to the Court, where the player is given called Court, where Outlaws are presented with three options: Withdraw Funds from Bank, Go to Prison, where players get transferred to another, group instance, or an one-time option to fight for freedom in the Arena*. Winning a duel will clear that player's bounty without the gold penalty and transfer him/her out of Prison. Losing has no additional penalty.[/list]
    To reduce the amount of new instances, the Solitary Cell instance should be the same instance as the Court instance, as they are both individual player instances.


    I'd do "bail bondsman choice" differently
    So the bounty is transformed to debt ,I follow that part.
    Still, that debt is good for a certain amount of jailtime if the player choosing this option cant meet the condition of paying off the debt while enjoying the provisional release.
    Community service will reduce the debt.Stealing items will add 400 debt for 1 item,second steal 1000 debt,3rd stealth attempt ;the conditions are violated in such a way that the criminal is send back to jail. (here comes the penalty 5% extra bounty to pay off )
    If however the criminal shows good behavior by doing activities like community service,that "good time" is counted towards time served.
    So lets say a criminal/outlaw has a bounty of 30 000 ,sat out 15 OOO in prison & paid off 15000 debt by doing community service ,the player becomes upholding again.

    Or if the criminal outlaw had a bounty/debt of 30000 and is only able to pay off 10000 with community service,the other 20000 still needs to be paid,or sat out in jail.

    But if the criminal /outlaw has a bounty of 30 000 ,sat out 15 000 in prison & commits crime during bondsman choice,the penalty of 750 is added + 400 + 1000( + the penalties and debt of any other crime.)
    So the criminal goes back to prison again with at least 17.150 debt/bounty.(maybe even a debt/bounty higher as before if he/she is not careful)
    Murder would add 2000 for each victim while under conditions of the bondsman,instead of 3 chances with stealing,
    guards would try to recatch you immediately for murder..

    I wouldn't take away the ability to commit crime,but make them pay dearly if they violate the release conditions
    If they behave badly while promising they 'll behave,thats all they deserve.

    just to be clear, you aren't saying they gain debt by getting caught or accruing bounty but by comitting crimes - so even if they steal something with no witnesses while out on bail they get slammed?

    or is it just accruing more bounty that triggers the penalty.

    If it is that somehow the bail bondsmen or authorities have a way to tell when crimes are comitted and by whom and when even without witnesses... for those for whom its about immersion and roleplaying - why weren't they using this all along? Shouldn't every crime result in bounty even if done with stealth and skill if they have this power?

    Is adding even more immersion breaking non-sequitor elements the way to address this?

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
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  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Tipsy wrote: »
    Ofcourse they'd be under "surveillance",if its under certain release conditions

    in stonefalls there even is a quest where one of the questgivers can follow you around in the city without actually being there..
    They could do this many many ways

    But if the people doing this are the bail bondsmen who want their money back, why would they watch over with this mystical tracking to stop the culprit from getting them money to pay them back?

    if the people watching them are the authorities, out to prevent more crime, why aren't they watching the criminals who had the money to pay their bounty, you know, the more successful crimnals too? Why doesn't every bounty paying criminal get more surveillance instead of only the poor ones? If you are gonna devote these resources to dealing with crime, why note focus them on the ones who will have money to pay you right away, the richer ones, instead of the ones who are poor? It just makes sense that you throw additional surveillance all criminals or the richer ones, not the poor ones.

    Some players running poorer characters would be offended at having to see this unfair outrage put onto the poorest and would feel complicit in the social injustice if forced to sit and watch and not be able to intervene by killing these mystical surveillance NPCs and PCs if PCs were involved. Surely you would understand that.



    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    @Dubhliam
    The basics need to be presented as simple as possible to avoid people to be overwhelmed,true
    I think the justice system is about bringing new options for players to the game.
    Providing players with even more ingame options for justice gameplay will only see to it that the system grows in complexity..
    This is not a problem I think ,if you have a solid foundation.
    When you write it out it sometimes seems complex,but thats not a reason for not to include it.
    There is still a lot of room for improvement I believe,judging from your videos.

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    [*] When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    [*] By choosing the "Go to Court" option in the "pay bounty" dialogue instead of paying or fleeing, Outlaws are now transferred to an instanced dungeon called Prison. Before being transferred to their cells, players are presented to the Court, where the player is given called Court, where Outlaws are presented with three options: Withdraw Funds from Bank, Go to Prison, where players get transferred to another, group instance, or an one-time option to fight for freedom in the Arena*. Winning a duel will clear that player's bounty without the gold penalty and transfer him/her out of Prison. Losing has no additional penalty.[/list]
    To reduce the amount of new instances, the Solitary Cell instance should be the same instance as the Court instance, as they are both individual player instances.


    I'd do "bail bondsman choice" differently
    So the bounty is transformed to debt ,I follow that part.
    Still, that debt is good for a certain amount of jailtime if the player choosing this option cant meet the condition of paying off the debt while enjoying the provisional release.
    Community service will reduce the debt.Stealing items will add 400 debt for 1 item,second steal 1000 debt,3rd stealth attempt ;the conditions are violated in such a way that the criminal is send back to jail. (here comes the penalty 5% extra bounty to pay off )
    If however the criminal shows good behavior by doing activities like community service,that "good time" is counted towards time served.
    So lets say a criminal/outlaw has a bounty of 30 000 ,sat out 15 OOO in prison & paid off 15000 debt by doing community service ,the player becomes upholding again.

    Or if the criminal outlaw had a bounty/debt of 30000 and is only able to pay off 10000 with community service,the other 20000 still needs to be paid,or sat out in jail.

    But if the criminal /outlaw has a bounty of 30 000 ,sat out 15 000 in prison & commits crime during bondsman choice,the penalty of 750 is added + 400 + 1000( + the penalties and debt of any other crime.)
    So the criminal goes back to prison again with at least 17.150 debt/bounty.(maybe even a debt/bounty higher as before if he/she is not careful)
    Murder would add 2000 for each victim while under conditions of the bondsman,instead of 3 chances with stealing,
    guards would try to recatch you immediately for murder..

    I wouldn't take away the ability to commit crime,but make them pay dearly if they violate the release conditions
    If they behave badly while promising they 'll behave,thats all they deserve.

    In your proposed scenario, I noticed you allowed for players to sit out and be in debt at the same time.
    How would that work exactly?
    How is someone that got his bounty paid able to get locked down again? This seems like overcomplicating something that only serves as a counter-measure to prevent people from not paying the bounty.

    Remember that for opted out players, going to Court is only possible if they have insufficient gold to pay the bounty when getting killed.
    I don't see this happening more than once in every player's game time, and it should not even have such a big impact when it happens accidentally.
    Players are given many options, Bail Bondsman being only one of them. I don't see the "no crime until debt is paid" as a harsh penalty, since it would be that player's choice and is given additional options to pay out the debt.
    This would of course, all have to be emphasized through the dialogue with the Judge before making the choice final.
    Remember, I have tested the current Justice System thoroughly, and after a whole day of reckless thieving and murdering (and sometimes even deliberately getting caught) I haven't managed to rack up more than 25k bounty.

    On the other hand, intentional abuse is prevented.

    My real question is: is there an alternate, simple way of preventing people from intentionally avoiding to pay the bounty?
    I would actually prefer if opted out players did not get transferred to Court at all.

    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Tipsy wrote: »
    @Dubhliam
    The basics need to be presented as simple as possible to avoid people to be overwhelmed,true
    I think the justice system is about bringing new options for players to the game.
    Providing players with even more ingame options for justice gameplay will only see to it that the system grows in complexity..
    This is not a problem I think ,if you have a solid foundation.
    When you write it out it sometimes seems complex,but thats not a reason for not to include it.
    There is still a lot of room for improvement I believe,judging from your videos.

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    [*] When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    [*] By choosing the "Go to Court" option in the "pay bounty" dialogue instead of paying or fleeing, Outlaws are now transferred to an instanced dungeon called Prison. Before being transferred to their cells, players are presented to the Court, where the player is given called Court, where Outlaws are presented with three options: Withdraw Funds from Bank, Go to Prison, where players get transferred to another, group instance, or an one-time option to fight for freedom in the Arena*. Winning a duel will clear that player's bounty without the gold penalty and transfer him/her out of Prison. Losing has no additional penalty.[/list]
    To reduce the amount of new instances, the Solitary Cell instance should be the same instance as the Court instance, as they are both individual player instances.


    I'd do "bail bondsman choice" differently
    So the bounty is transformed to debt ,I follow that part.
    Still, that debt is good for a certain amount of jailtime if the player choosing this option cant meet the condition of paying off the debt while enjoying the provisional release.
    Community service will reduce the debt.Stealing items will add 400 debt for 1 item,second steal 1000 debt,3rd stealth attempt ;the conditions are violated in such a way that the criminal is send back to jail. (here comes the penalty 5% extra bounty to pay off )
    If however the criminal shows good behavior by doing activities like community service,that "good time" is counted towards time served.
    So lets say a criminal/outlaw has a bounty of 30 000 ,sat out 15 OOO in prison & paid off 15000 debt by doing community service ,the player becomes upholding again.

    Or if the criminal outlaw had a bounty/debt of 30000 and is only able to pay off 10000 with community service,the other 20000 still needs to be paid,or sat out in jail.

    But if the criminal /outlaw has a bounty of 30 000 ,sat out 15 000 in prison & commits crime during bondsman choice,the penalty of 750 is added + 400 + 1000( + the penalties and debt of any other crime.)
    So the criminal goes back to prison again with at least 17.150 debt/bounty.(maybe even a debt/bounty higher as before if he/she is not careful)
    Murder would add 2000 for each victim while under conditions of the bondsman,instead of 3 chances with stealing,
    guards would try to recatch you immediately for murder..

    I wouldn't take away the ability to commit crime,but make them pay dearly if they violate the release conditions
    If they behave badly while promising they 'll behave,thats all they deserve.

    In your proposed scenario, I noticed you allowed for players to sit out and be in debt at the same time.
    How would that work exactly?
    How is someone that got his bounty paid able to get locked down again? This seems like overcomplicating something that only serves as a counter-measure to prevent people from not paying the bounty.

    Remember that for opted out players, going to Court is only possible if they have insufficient gold to pay the bounty when getting killed.
    I don't see this happening more than once in every player's game time, and it should not even have such a big impact when it happens accidentally.
    Players are given many options, Bail Bondsman being only one of them. I don't see the "no crime until debt is paid" as a harsh penalty, since it would be that player's choice and is given additional options to pay out the debt.
    This would of course, all have to be emphasized through the dialogue with the Judge before making the choice final.
    Remember, I have tested the current Justice System thoroughly, and after a whole day of reckless thieving and murdering (and sometimes even deliberately getting caught) I haven't managed to rack up more than 25k bounty.

    On the other hand, intentional abuse is prevented.

    My real question is: is there an alternate, simple way of preventing people from intentionally avoiding to pay the bounty?
    I would actually prefer if opted out players did not get transferred to Court at all.

    nice pointing out the low bounty and testing and how the bail thieving ban wont be an issue after testing system that does not have your multipliers for bounty our higher guard catch rates.

    As for your question, your decision to double punish those caught by your multipliers or who play so irregularly that keeping 100k of spare gold in inventory shows intent. Needing to keep at risk piles of gold for paying multiple times current bounty levels WILL drive some players awsy from participating in this one of the solo repeatable casual activities, even if only during times when they are gold-poor like say after new sets are selling. Why put so much more at risk with zero increased payback for non-outlaws?

    In the current system, if you dont have the gold, the bounty doesnt clear. So you still have the bounty problem. Game not falling down over this. No obvious signs of ABUSE just signsbof activities some dont like.

    One might wonder that once a (re)designer went to the trouble to make the getting spotted, evading and escaping guards as tough "as it should be" for whatever level of risk-reward (tho again higher risk but no reward unless you take pvp -also telling) they felt was "balanced" then why in the world would they add double-whammy of bail (exclude from injustice play) or sit it out for those unable to pay the multiplied bounties (in pve) instead of keeping the current bounty stays since having bounty is made as tough as it "should be?"

    But that answer seems obvious, after a little more thought.

    Quick question though, on the pvp side, how many times would an opted-in pve player have to laydown for a pvp player in the arena before he covered a 100k (after multipliers) unpaid bounty?

    Not so quick question, regarding exploits.

    I call this The Fagin2016 Idea.
    If court, sit out, bail are options for opt-in then...
    I opt-in
    I thieve and kill from @Tipsy faction.
    i fence my stuff with my fence ot at local dens regularly and bank to alts my loot.
    I keep inventory at minimal since gear that helps thieving/killing isnt really needed with BOW.
    I keep gold at zero. I eventually get to jail/court whatever after failure. All i need is a screen to log out with.
    I delete character instead of putting up with this crap.
    Recreate character.
    Start again, same deal.
    Continue rotation of bottom level criminal "urchins" (youngest age, smallest on sizes) under @Fagin16 account name, all feeding gold at higher pvp ratios to my real characters. No need for worrying about class etc so just click quick but obviouly khajiit for bonus.
    Since with One Tamriel we are all leveled, since injustice booty doesnt reallly scale with level anyway... seems like something you should consider.

    Probably no chance *** Dar character name is available.


    EDIT - not surprised the Oliver Twist Character Name got *** by the auto-system when not suffixed with 2016 but c'mon, really?!?!




    Edited by STEVIL on August 2, 2016 2:38PM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Woke up this morning early as the sun was coming up.
    A good day in Tamriel.
    Checked mail and found 56k of motifs had sold overnight. Half of them were from yesterday's delving.
    looked at today's agenda - included delving (of course) and some grinding for the new girl working on her staff.
    So i thought to myself "Self, lets really confuse Amazon".

    So i ran three sets of activities - all solo, all casual all repeatable and most knowing what to do and prepared.
    Ran 30-45m of each. (tallies are adjusted up to 45m.)
    had extra bookkeeping steps for some basically due to wanting to track as much as possible.

    here are the results after all expenses and repairs etc. I only counted cp150-160 pieces and cp150-160 nodes in these tallies.

    Delving 45m yields ~65k xp, ~3500g, 5 set pieces, 18 pieces to decon and 2 more motif pieces that will sell for about 15k in the next day or three- 10k if i want quicker.
    Grinding: ~64k xp, ~800g, 28 pieces to decon, 43 harvested nodes with 7 chest looted along the way (included in totals).
    Slaughter civies: ~33k xp, ~4300g (fences at den etc) with three safeboxes looted along the way (included in total)


    For the slaughter i chose an out of the way place with plenty of civies and i only saw two guards who never saw me as it was easy to avoid them. rarely used stealth as it would slow down the process. never used blade of woe which reduces xp. Accrued over 6k bounty since i wasn't trying to hide but char will likely be clear by the time i log her back in. hoped for higher to let me use the grand amnesty 100k bounty purge edict - sigh.

    Now, above i said most knowing what to do and prepared. thats because the grinder was in cast-offs from my other folks and not exactly optimized. Respeced her recently and so she is working on her new skills - took the destro staff from 18-23 unlocking two new skill points to spend their.

    No one was ever close to death. only time anybody got even below half health was when the grinder just kept rushing between mobs and ran out of mag - before remembering all those "get tons of magica when you kill with destro" come later in the progression. She got down a little below half. the grinder was basically brute dunderhead through - the rest were normally fully speced and fully prepared. never even had to use an avoid jail potion.

    So again i repeat - the current injustice activities as solo casual repeatable activities are not out of whack in terms of difficulty and payout with their counterparts. They WILL produce more gold specifically than some but at the expense of the other useful and marketable commodities and noticably less xp gain.

    No enlightenment applied, way over max cp.

    Numbers matter.

    Got motifs - check
    Got set pieces - check
    Got staff raised - check
    Got another leger to max 20 - check.

    good start to a day.

    Now for breakfast.

    EDIT - explaining the confuse amazon - "Alexa add one rune" "Alexa add one chest" "Alexa add one wood" etc etc etc to track the acquisition of nodes and such through out the process using the shopping list verbal ordering since tracking the individual mats is harder. Cant wait to see what shows on my "recommended list" is now

    :-)

    Edited by STEVIL on August 2, 2016 2:34PM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    If the player paid off a debt of 10.000,while the actual debt is 30000,he/she still needs to come up with the other 20000 by either paying instantly,community service
    or sitting it out.The resting amount of debt does not just vanish,thats why the player gets locked down for the part that the player is still short (but also has to stay less long in prison
    as the debt is lower then)
    (an outlaw/criminal outside of the prison with a resting amount of debt is placed under surveillance )
    So if someone paid a portion of the bounty,they can get locked down for the debt that still remains.

    So debt is 30k , player paid 15k instantly ,after that did community service worth 15K..The player sat out his term and becomes upholding.
    Player paid 10K,after that did community service worth 10k..the player still has a debt of 10K ,which either needs to be paid instantly,more community service or jailtime.
    The player didn't pay the full bounty you see,thats why the player could choose to get locked away for the remaining debt(obviously less jailtime than with a debt of 30k)

    Is there a simple way of preventing people from intentionally avoiding to pay the bounty?
    Allowing a negative gold balance below zero for the amount of the debt.
    If the players erases the character then,it gets detracted from the first character the player logs in with next time.
    So there is no way around it
    Edited by Tipsy on August 2, 2016 10:19PM
This discussion has been closed.