The Scribes of Fate DLC and Update 37 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Maintenance for the week of February 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – February 6
• EU megaservers for maintenance – February 7, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – February 8, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – February 8, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 15:00 UTC (10:00AM EST)

The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.

  • grom1024
    grom1024
    ✭✭✭
    I guess we have enforcer campers near every outlaw refuge entry out there with these suggestions. At least that is the place where I would farm outlaws if needed for a skill line or anything like it. So opt-in will work only so far, people will stop doing it. This is my guess why ZoS dropped the idea.
  • ahstin2001nub18_ESO
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Tipsy wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Since there is an opt-out, I don't see what people would complain about.
    There is no need for separate servers, if it can be played in two different ways at the same time.

    Amen to that, and I think the list of choices above provides all the choice a player needs to keep playing the playstyle they want.
    I guess letting another player pay the bounty on their behalf is also an option,suggested to disable trade between players becuase I thought it would be prone to abuse and encourage players to run around without gold since some rich sugardaddy would pay it for them.But now I see it would also limit the options for players wanting to help out other player so its a no go.

    About the solitary cell choice (solo instance for opted out criminals),will players be able to escape with difficult puzzle solving or something?
    I think there should alway be something to do,so which actions would the prisoner be able to take?

    And suppose we'd have many puzzles in place that a player needs to solve in order to escape the prison.
    What if the prisoner had such a high bounty (like 25k) that the time to escape took shorter than it would have took for the amount of bounty to decay?
    Or would the bounty remain while in prison?but just decay faster for each puzzle solved successfully?
    Or would the difficulty of the puzzles then depend on the amount of bounty the prisoner entered with?

    I haven't thought about the escape possibility for PvE Solitary yet.
    I'll have to put some thought into it.
    Divinius wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I'm actually glad you brought this up. While I didn't and won't explain HOW those people got such large bounties, did you stop for a second and think how long would it take for you to rack up such a massive bounty?
    I did a test a few days back, I played the Justice System content as recklessly as I could, and I only managed to rack up 25k bounty after hours of reckless criminal activities.
    It would take a full month of playing ONLY Justice, and in a very reckless way for me to rack up a 1 million bounty, and it would take me almost 3 years to rack up 33 million bounty.
    Yet some players had this kind of massive bounties long before Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood were even announced.
    Remember that guy that came to the forums demanding that ZOS makes Orsinium quest NPCs interactable to Fugitives? He had a 33kk bounty (IIRC), and that was just the second DLC release since the Justice System.
    From what I gathered, those people were grinding champion points by killing "innocent" NPCs over and over again for hours. In areas where there's a ton of killable NPCs in a small area, it apparently makes for great exp, but you are witnessed every time you attack and kill one, so your bounty goes up super fast.

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    These kind of bounties cannot be obtained by intended meas of participation in the Justice System. It is abusal.
    I 100% agree with it being an abuse, which is why I never felt pity for people that did this. And also why I would have no problem with a PvE system that would make bounties of that nature virtually impossible to play with. If you have a bounty of over 100k, you are obviously doing it intentionally. So, for players with bounties like that, if the game were to spawn 50 unkillable guards every 30 seconds directly on your face, I'm totally ok with that. As long as they are PvE guards. :)

    the bold was precisely what i had in mind for the justification for my PVP component recommendations.

    apply the bold scenario to my suggestion to my recommendations here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3209374/#Comment_3209374

    since im taking the time to reply, @Dubhliam tabards are not JUST to activate PVP, but to also provide a means for criminals to quickly and readily identify player guards, to aid in protecting them from ganking and just masses of player guards attacking at once. perhaps cooldowns should be applied, but the foundation of the system needs to be laid before those ideas are explored. with how pvp mechanics work, it actually increases the chance of a guard being ganked, than a criminal-pvper, as well as it should be. the guard-pvper already has a strategic advantage.

    As I stated before, I am not fond of the tabard idea, since it opens up for possibilities for players that want to grief.
    In my opinion, there should be clear restrictions for Enforcers, and the choice to enlist would have to be a long - term one.
    The opt-out/in on the other hand can be switched once per day, but nevertheless, the criminal career is a long term choice.

    As for Outlaws ganking Enforcers, that possibility is disabled with this restriction:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    This concept, while embracing and promoting player versus player interaction should not be viewed as a way for people to duel. The Arena is in the works, we all know it is coming sooner or later.
    I do like your idea about giving the Criminals a way to identify Enforcer more easily.
    I will be adding this line into the concept:
    • Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.

    the bold doesn't take into consideration, that a pvp-criminal will also have to contend with the guards, and the townsfolk, giving an advantage to the pvp-guard. the gank, protects the pvp-criminal, giving them the opportunity to ambush, or strike from stealth, to take out the pvp-guard, and either kill the NPCs or stealth out via abilities or potions.
    grom1024 wrote: »
    I guess we have enforcer campers near every outlaw refuge entry out there with these suggestions. At least that is the place where I would farm outlaws if needed for a skill line or anything like it. So opt-in will work only so far, people will stop doing it. This is my guess why ZoS dropped the idea.

    no it was likely because they didn't want to sell dark brotherhood, and the thieves guilds as PVP DLC and risk the monetary repercussions.

    they could make dens, that are tied to 1 ways in; two ways out- 1 could be camped but the back is tied to only the den, and leads to an elevated position, that can't be accessed without going through the den. the pvp-guards (player guards), can not enter the den. bandits love caves, so make dens caves that have a lower entrance, and an upper exit. it would also provide PVP-criminals a safe area to "wait out the clock" and let the bounty drop.
    Edited by ahstin2001nub18_ESO on July 29, 2016 9:59PM
    I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.

    Martin A. Treptow
    1894-1918
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    grom1024 wrote: »
    I guess we have enforcer campers near every outlaw refuge entry out there with these suggestions. At least that is the place where I would farm outlaws if needed for a skill line or anything like it. So opt-in will work only so far, people will stop doing it. This is my guess why ZoS dropped the idea.

    i dont disagree on the net impact but i think at least one suggestion maybe not accepted so far was to have AI "bouncers" patrolling around the outlaw refuges to discourage PVP stake-outs. I imagine since they feel the usual AI guards are so effective at deterring crime, they also expect these AI "bouncers" to be equaLLY AS EFFECTIVE AT DISCOURAGING the stake-outs.

    Not sure tho. (about what they think.)

    Just wish every discussion of expanding justice content wasnt always forced to be married to "and we add pvp too."

    There;s a world of new content and possibilities but it wont ever get anywhere as long as every time it comes up PVP gets tossed in as a companion or the very core of the system.



    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • ahstin2001nub18_ESO
    STEVIL wrote: »
    grom1024 wrote: »
    I guess we have enforcer campers near every outlaw refuge entry out there with these suggestions. At least that is the place where I would farm outlaws if needed for a skill line or anything like it. So opt-in will work only so far, people will stop doing it. This is my guess why ZoS dropped the idea.

    i dont disagree on the net impact but i think at least one suggestion maybe not accepted so far was to have AI "bouncers" patrolling around the outlaw refuges to discourage PVP stake-outs. I imagine since they feel the usual AI guards are so effective at deterring crime, they also expect these AI "bouncers" to be equaLLY AS EFFECTIVE AT DISCOURAGING the stake-outs.

    Not sure tho. (about what they think.)

    Just wish every discussion of expanding justice content wasnt always forced to be married to "and we add pvp too."

    There;s a world of new content and possibilities but it wont ever get anywhere as long as every time it comes up PVP gets tossed in as a companion or the very core of the system.



    again... because PVP was the "core of the system"... that doesn't change because you don't like it; them pulling it, i don't have to like either. having immortal guards (a stupid idea from the start) was never the intended end result of the justice system, and was intended (foolishly) to prepare players for when the PVP portion was released. if you can't beat the AI.... well there really isn't a whole lot to work with there...

    since the system was based around the notion of PVP, and they pulled away from it, they need to rebuild the system so it reflects that it is ONLY for PVE. better yet they can follow their word and go with implementing PVP... which they won't... and they lose credibility. one way or another, they system needs changes...
    I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.

    Martin A. Treptow
    1894-1918
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    grom1024 wrote: »
    I guess we have enforcer campers near every outlaw refuge entry out there with these suggestions. At least that is the place where I would farm outlaws if needed for a skill line or anything like it. So opt-in will work only so far, people will stop doing it. This is my guess why ZoS dropped the idea.

    i dont disagree on the net impact but i think at least one suggestion maybe not accepted so far was to have AI "bouncers" patrolling around the outlaw refuges to discourage PVP stake-outs. I imagine since they feel the usual AI guards are so effective at deterring crime, they also expect these AI "bouncers" to be equaLLY AS EFFECTIVE AT DISCOURAGING the stake-outs.

    Not sure tho. (about what they think.)

    Just wish every discussion of expanding justice content wasnt always forced to be married to "and we add pvp too."

    There;s a world of new content and possibilities but it wont ever get anywhere as long as every time it comes up PVP gets tossed in as a companion or the very core of the system.



    again... because PVP was the "core of the system"... that doesn't change because you don't like it; them pulling it, i don't have to like either. having immortal guards (a stupid idea from the start) was never the intended end result of the justice system, and was intended (foolishly) to prepare players for when the PVP portion was released. if you can't beat the AI.... well there really isn't a whole lot to work with there...

    since the system was based around the notion of PVP, and they pulled away from it, they need to rebuild the system so it reflects that it is ONLY for PVE. better yet they can follow their word and go with implementing PVP... which they won't... and they lose credibility. one way or another, they system needs changes...

    Ok so as far as i can tell, in spite of the tone of your post, we agree?

    i mean, we differ on whether we think the PVP side was a "possibility they considered and rejected, issuing lots of caveats along the way" versus "core of the system" stuff... but you seem to be agreeing that moving forward with it as solely PVE is what they need to do UNLESS they decide to reverse their game-wide policy of not mixing pve and pvp outside of pvp zones (which they have clearly said they wont do.)

    I just wish more people unhappy with the loss of the pvp component could let it go like you.

    But i remain hopeful to try and get a BD/TG or bigger "law and order" dlc added... maybe in 2017 but it depends on what all they have in the pipeline. Wouldn't be before one tamriel of course. (For my vison, one tamriel would be necessary and would benefit from it.)

    thanks for the kind words.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Edgemoor
    Edgemoor
    ✭✭✭


    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Since there is an opt-out, I don't see what people would complain about.
    There is no need for separate servers, if it can be played in two different ways at the same time.


    I made no mention of seperate servers.

    A simple PvP flag on a player would allow PvP'rs and PvE players to co-exist peacefully without interferring with each others game play.

    Having two instances (one PvE and one PvP) that you could switch between at the flick of a switch in game would allow for much greater PvP opporunities and gameplay than anything you have proposed thus far.

    In addition both ideas would allow allow both types of players to play ESO the way they want without introducing overly complex justice system changes.

    In fact this would allow ZOS to further develop the PvP scenario in the game world with less restrition, since you have an explicit choice on how you play in the game world and can switch from one to the other if you are not happy.

    PvP duals would not be a problem. PvP in the justice system no worries there either. If you are PvP player why wouldn't you think this isn't a good idea to consider?

    In fact this is something many PvP players have been asking about for a while.
    Edited by Edgemoor on July 29, 2016 11:30PM
  • ahstin2001nub18_ESO
    STEVIL wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    grom1024 wrote: »
    I guess we have enforcer campers near every outlaw refuge entry out there with these suggestions. At least that is the place where I would farm outlaws if needed for a skill line or anything like it. So opt-in will work only so far, people will stop doing it. This is my guess why ZoS dropped the idea.

    i dont disagree on the net impact but i think at least one suggestion maybe not accepted so far was to have AI "bouncers" patrolling around the outlaw refuges to discourage PVP stake-outs. I imagine since they feel the usual AI guards are so effective at deterring crime, they also expect these AI "bouncers" to be equaLLY AS EFFECTIVE AT DISCOURAGING the stake-outs.

    Not sure tho. (about what they think.)

    Just wish every discussion of expanding justice content wasnt always forced to be married to "and we add pvp too."

    There;s a world of new content and possibilities but it wont ever get anywhere as long as every time it comes up PVP gets tossed in as a companion or the very core of the system.



    again... because PVP was the "core of the system"... that doesn't change because you don't like it; them pulling it, i don't have to like either. having immortal guards (a stupid idea from the start) was never the intended end result of the justice system, and was intended (foolishly) to prepare players for when the PVP portion was released. if you can't beat the AI.... well there really isn't a whole lot to work with there...

    since the system was based around the notion of PVP, and they pulled away from it, they need to rebuild the system so it reflects that it is ONLY for PVE. better yet they can follow their word and go with implementing PVP... which they won't... and they lose credibility. one way or another, they system needs changes...

    Ok so as far as i can tell, in spite of the tone of your post, we agree?

    i mean, we differ on whether we think the PVP side was a "possibility they considered and rejected, issuing lots of caveats along the way" versus "core of the system" stuff... but you seem to be agreeing that moving forward with it as solely PVE is what they need to do UNLESS they decide to reverse their game-wide policy of not mixing pve and pvp outside of pvp zones (which they have clearly said they wont do.)

    I just wish more people unhappy with the loss of the pvp component could let it go like you.

    But i remain hopeful to try and get a BD/TG or bigger "law and order" dlc added... maybe in 2017 but it depends on what all they have in the pipeline. Wouldn't be before one tamriel of course. (For my vison, one tamriel would be necessary and would benefit from it.)

    thanks for the kind words.

    no you simply didn't listen when told it was a core part of the system, and dumped (likely for a cash grab DLC), and didn't research it at all...

    your reading material:
    http://elderscrollsonline.info/justice-system
    http://tamrieljournal.com/first-look-justice-system-eso/
    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2014/12/04/the-road-ahead---december-4

    "We want to give everyone a heads up that we’ll be introducing the Justice System using a phased approach, much like what we’ve been doing with the Champion System. So, the first iteration of the Justice System will include Skyrim-style PvE elements—you’ll be able to steal from vendors, pickpocket NPCs, kill NPCs, have justice meted out to you by guards—but not with the PvP Enforcer part of the system."

    NOTE: the champion system, being an incomplete implementation as well @STEVIL

    @Edgemoor layering, while a good idea, would spread the community out too much and require increasing sever loads. not including coldharbour and cadwell's there is already 5 zones (6 if you count the starters) off the top of my head, for the potential system as is. it would spread the load just right. with one tamriel that will expand that much more, further expanding the community, which i lean towards it being in the "right" direction, as then groups/raids could then also be something to consider, and includes the RP community. do two layers with one tamriel, and the monetary costs just arent going to be covered for the server load.
    Edited by ahstin2001nub18_ESO on July 30, 2016 1:38AM
    I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.

    Martin A. Treptow
    1894-1918
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    grom1024 wrote: »
    I guess we have enforcer campers near every outlaw refuge entry out there with these suggestions. At least that is the place where I would farm outlaws if needed for a skill line or anything like it. So opt-in will work only so far, people will stop doing it. This is my guess why ZoS dropped the idea.

    i dont disagree on the net impact but i think at least one suggestion maybe not accepted so far was to have AI "bouncers" patrolling around the outlaw refuges to discourage PVP stake-outs. I imagine since they feel the usual AI guards are so effective at deterring crime, they also expect these AI "bouncers" to be equaLLY AS EFFECTIVE AT DISCOURAGING the stake-outs.

    Not sure tho. (about what they think.)

    Just wish every discussion of expanding justice content wasnt always forced to be married to "and we add pvp too."

    There;s a world of new content and possibilities but it wont ever get anywhere as long as every time it comes up PVP gets tossed in as a companion or the very core of the system.



    again... because PVP was the "core of the system"... that doesn't change because you don't like it; them pulling it, i don't have to like either. having immortal guards (a stupid idea from the start) was never the intended end result of the justice system, and was intended (foolishly) to prepare players for when the PVP portion was released. if you can't beat the AI.... well there really isn't a whole lot to work with there...

    since the system was based around the notion of PVP, and they pulled away from it, they need to rebuild the system so it reflects that it is ONLY for PVE. better yet they can follow their word and go with implementing PVP... which they won't... and they lose credibility. one way or another, they system needs changes...

    Ok so as far as i can tell, in spite of the tone of your post, we agree?

    i mean, we differ on whether we think the PVP side was a "possibility they considered and rejected, issuing lots of caveats along the way" versus "core of the system" stuff... but you seem to be agreeing that moving forward with it as solely PVE is what they need to do UNLESS they decide to reverse their game-wide policy of not mixing pve and pvp outside of pvp zones (which they have clearly said they wont do.)

    I just wish more people unhappy with the loss of the pvp component could let it go like you.

    But i remain hopeful to try and get a BD/TG or bigger "law and order" dlc added... maybe in 2017 but it depends on what all they have in the pipeline. Wouldn't be before one tamriel of course. (For my vison, one tamriel would be necessary and would benefit from it.)

    thanks for the kind words.

    no you simply didn't listen when told it was a core part of the system, and dumped (likely for a cash grab DLC), and didn't research it at all...

    your reading material:
    http://elderscrollsonline.info/justice-system

    Wow again... I just love the assumptions that folks not agreeing aren't informed.

    You can point to as many non-eso official pages claiming as many eso things as you want.

    thats nothing new to see. Nothing i didn't know, well, except that that specific site had a misinformed article as well that apparently they never took down after ZOS decided to scrap the pvp side of things.

    Zos thought about it.
    Zos talked about it.
    Zos decided it wouldn't work (maybe there was playtest or feedback - no clue mtself)
    Zos released the PVE side with explicit statements about maintaining the separation of pve and pvp.

    and no amount of third party pr out of date a web pages that make it almost sound like it was almost released changes any of that.

    But your out of date web page does clear up one thing.

    YOUR CHOSEN REFERENCE - has just about 1/3 of its lines devoted to the pvp parts. the rest to the PVE parts. thats 2-1 PVE over PVP discussion.

    So not sure where from that article one can come up with the notion that its "PVP was the "core of the system"..
    Also not sure where you would derive that conclusion from the FACT that they dropped the PVP part and implemented a justice system that works and has been for a while - though like anything it could be better. Two whole DLCs have been built around much of that PVE content. Seems hard to build that on a foundation that has no core?

    Unless by "core" one means "the part i liked dreaming about" in which case, it sure may have been some people's core to the justice system.

    But in the real world of game companies - not everything they think of doing turns into realities. Everyone has to decide whether to dwell in the past or look to the future and i am hoping for a future expansion to the justice system including
    full law and order dlc
    full questlines and side quests
    new passive skill lines for justice
    new npc guild working with mage and fighter's guilds (spotlighting their multi-faction nature)
    world-wide repeatables spawning out of the mage guilds (investigation) and fighter guilds (escort)
    new sets, new craftable etc - the usual DLC stuff
    Couple new delves and world boss dens.
    etc.

    But realistically i know it wont happen if a PVP worldwide justice takeover is forced in with it.




    Edited by STEVIL on July 30, 2016 1:20AM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    grom1024 wrote: »
    I guess we have enforcer campers near every outlaw refuge entry out there with these suggestions. At least that is the place where I would farm outlaws if needed for a skill line or anything like it. So opt-in will work only so far, people will stop doing it. This is my guess why ZoS dropped the idea.

    i dont disagree on the net impact but i think at least one suggestion maybe not accepted so far was to have AI "bouncers" patrolling around the outlaw refuges to discourage PVP stake-outs. I imagine since they feel the usual AI guards are so effective at deterring crime, they also expect these AI "bouncers" to be equaLLY AS EFFECTIVE AT DISCOURAGING the stake-outs.

    Not sure tho. (about what they think.)

    Just wish every discussion of expanding justice content wasnt always forced to be married to "and we add pvp too."

    There;s a world of new content and possibilities but it wont ever get anywhere as long as every time it comes up PVP gets tossed in as a companion or the very core of the system.



    again... because PVP was the "core of the system"... that doesn't change because you don't like it; them pulling it, i don't have to like either. having immortal guards (a stupid idea from the start) was never the intended end result of the justice system, and was intended (foolishly) to prepare players for when the PVP portion was released. if you can't beat the AI.... well there really isn't a whole lot to work with there...

    since the system was based around the notion of PVP, and they pulled away from it, they need to rebuild the system so it reflects that it is ONLY for PVE. better yet they can follow their word and go with implementing PVP... which they won't... and they lose credibility. one way or another, they system needs changes...

    Ok so as far as i can tell, in spite of the tone of your post, we agree?

    i mean, we differ on whether we think the PVP side was a "possibility they considered and rejected, issuing lots of caveats along the way" versus "core of the system" stuff... but you seem to be agreeing that moving forward with it as solely PVE is what they need to do UNLESS they decide to reverse their game-wide policy of not mixing pve and pvp outside of pvp zones (which they have clearly said they wont do.)

    I just wish more people unhappy with the loss of the pvp component could let it go like you.

    But i remain hopeful to try and get a BD/TG or bigger "law and order" dlc added... maybe in 2017 but it depends on what all they have in the pipeline. Wouldn't be before one tamriel of course. (For my vison, one tamriel would be necessary and would benefit from it.)

    thanks for the kind words.

    no you simply didn't listen when told it was a core part of the system, and dumped (likely for a cash grab DLC), and didn't research it at all...

    your reading material:
    http://elderscrollsonline.info/justice-system
    http://tamrieljournal.com/first-look-justice-system-eso/
    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2014/12/04/the-road-ahead---december-4

    "We want to give everyone a heads up that we’ll be introducing the Justice System using a phased approach, much like what we’ve been doing with the Champion System. So, the first iteration of the Justice System will include Skyrim-style PvE elements—you’ll be able to steal from vendors, pickpocket NPCs, kill NPCs, have justice meted out to you by guards—but not with the PvP Enforcer part of the system."

    NOTE: the champion system, being an incomplete implementation as well @STEVIL


    @Edgemoor layering, while a good idea, would spread the community out too much and require increasing sever loads. not including coldharbour and cadwell's there is already 5 zones (6 if you count the starters) off the top of my head, for the potential system as is. it would spread the load just right. with one tamriel that will expand that much more, further expanding the community, which i lean towards it being in the "right" direction, as then groups/raids could then also be something to consider, and includes the RP community. do two layers with one tamriel, and the monetary costs just arent going to be covered for the server load.

    For the new additions... how many more out of date references to a system zos talked about then scrapped do you think you need to post to prove i dont even know what. Nothing you are posting says that PVP is the core of the justice system as you claimed it was and nothing you are posting contradicts the fact that as i said they talked about it then scrapped it.

    As for champions being incomplete? Not suire what you mean by that. Obviously anything can be improved and expanded but after the recent overhaul a couple releases ago and the transition to champion levels vs vet levels - i am not aware of whatever you are referencing as incomplete.

    I get that you believe pvp was the core of justice in eso. i get that apparently now you also feel champs system is incomplete. But you aren't really making an objective case or argument about it.

    But back to your point " they need to rebuild the system so it reflects that it is ONLY for PVE. " the current system is only pve has no pvp references within it so there is no pvp content to rebuild to take out of it...

    and of course there is tons of more pve content they can add - as i keep suggesting.

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Edgemoor
    Edgemoor
    ✭✭✭
    @Edgemoor layering, while a good idea, would spread the community out too much and require increasing sever loads. not including coldharbour and cadwell's there is already 5 zones (6 if you count the starters) off the top of my head, for the potential system as is. it would spread the load just right. with one tamriel that will expand that much more, further expanding the community, which i lean towards it being in the "right" direction, as then groups/raids could then also be something to consider, and includes the RP community. do two layers with one tamriel, and the monetary costs just arent going to be covered for the server load

    ZOS use megaservers so highly unlikely given the number of players that engage in PvP and PvE. But there is absolutely no way you (myself or anyone else included) have access to the means that would prove or disprove population or server would be an issue. Only ZOS could possibly answer that. And ZOS will likely only answer that if the idea of instancing became a serious suggestion. I.e. the player base would need to suggest it first.

    The RP community is not likely to be overly keen on introducing PvP into the justice system period. They tend to RP stories and events of their own so any outside intrusions are generally not welcome as it tends to break immersion and story lines.

    Instancing PvP and PvE, or providing the means to flag yourself for PvP would at least allow the RP'ers and everyone else to not engage in PvP if they don't want to. It would also allow those that want to PvP to do so, and open up a whole multitude of options for them, and also for ZOS to tweak the PvP instance to be better suited to PvP'rs needs.
    Edited by Edgemoor on July 30, 2016 3:28AM
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    A quick suggestion for the problem grom mentioned where enforcer camp near every outlaw refugee; mobile "merchant" cart the criminal/outlaws can find to instantly access the outlaw refugee
    There would be a daily oulaw/Criminal sign for npcs to understand,but first you need to gather the clues and find out the sign of the day as a criminal/outlaw

    if you show the wrong sign ;
    12577-2-1331391580.jpg
    "Khajit has no need for the fleas,this one just got rid of them earlier this week"
    If you learned the right sign
    "This one will try to act surprised if the guards find other breathing things next to the Kwama cargo"
    Edited by Tipsy on July 30, 2016 7:40AM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Edgemoor , I don't consider myself a PvP player, nor would I say I am a purely PvE player.
    I don't like the idea of instancing zones into PvE and PvP, in fact I detest such marginalization of players.
    I enjoy both aspects of the game, and I consider the vast majority of players play both PvE and PvP. My concept is trying to mingle players together, not separate them further.
    As for the PvP flagging:
    • Criminals have an option to flag themselves as Outlaws(opted in for PvP) once per day by interacting with a fence.
    • Enforcers cannot be forced into PvP (because they cannot be attacked first), therefore they can choose to play only the PvE repeatable quests, if they don't wish to participate in PvP.
    So there is an opt-out for both, just not on separate servers(sorry, instances).

    @STEVIL , the forum code is so poorly written that even though I can't see your posts, I can see when someone quotes them.
    After 2 threads and 17 pages, you still obviously haven't read the concept.
    It was MY idea to make NPC Outlaws guard the Refuge entrances, and YES, that idea made it into the concept. They don't have to have über AI, they just need to have Clairvoyance and a fairly short respawn time to help prevent Refuge camping.
    There are 20 PvE maps, usually with 2 Outlaw refuge entrances. Apart from that, players can enter a Refuge via the Footpads, or use Pirharri the Smuggler to fence their good from any place.
    If you also add the fact that Enforcers would have to go to the Headquarters after every kill to hand in the quest, I'd say camping is highly unlikely.
    But why do you care, anyway? You got your opt-out.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • grom1024
    grom1024
    ✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    A quick suggestion for the problem grom mentioned where enforcer camp near every outlaw refugee; mobile "merchant" cart the criminal/outlaws can find to instantly access the outlaw refugee
    There would be a daily oulaw/Criminal sign for npcs to understand,but first you need to gather the clues and find out the sign of the day as a criminal/outlaw

    It depends on amount of such carts. Too few (for example, single one), they will be camped as well, possibly with help of "outlaw informers" that will have a free pass through enforcers's camps. Too many would be other problem, as it would disbalance risks and rewards in TG (and possibly DB, I have not played DLC yet) daily quests. I would not like quest rewards to be nerfed as result.
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @STEVIL , the forum code is so poorly written that even though I can't see your posts, I can see when someone quotes them.
    After 2 threads and 17 pages, you still obviously haven't read the concept.
    It was MY idea to make NPC Outlaws guard the Refuge entrances, and YES, that idea made it into the concept. They don't have to have über AI, they just need to have Clairvoyance and a fairly short respawn time to help prevent Refuge camping.
    There are 20 PvE maps, usually with 2 Outlaw refuge entrances. Apart from that, players can enter a Refuge via the Footpads, or use Pirharri the Smuggler to fence their good from any place.
    If you also add the fact that Enforcers would have to go to the Headquarters after every kill to hand in the quest, I'd say camping is highly unlikely.
    But why do you care, anyway? You got your opt-out.

    Pirharri - is too greedy kitty, even by her race standards, and she does not clears bounty.

    Note, one does not have to camp entrance, it is enough to camp approaches to entrance. For Auridon, there are two points that needs to be controlled inside city, and three-four outside. Enforcer camps do not have to 100% effective for farming. 80% efficiency is enough to spoil the game for outlaws. I have not played PvP in this game yet, but from forum discussions, this is a popular tactics in Cyrodil as well to camp shards and other interesting places.
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    thats why I suggested to add undercover ,so outlaws have manoeuvres to shake off enforcers ..Like certain criminal actions would also reward them manoeuver points that the outlaw/criminal can use to throw dirt in the eyes of an enforcer,... that renders them blind for an amount of time.

    though they'd have to use the manoeuvre points wisely,as they are also used to purge temporary tags,reducing the time they appear visible on the map
    Or they can use the manoeuvre points to pretend they are a bush
    singing bush xD

    Criminals/outlaws could use these manoeuvre points to cloak themselves once in a radius of the outlaw refugee/cart
    Or they could just throw dirt in the eyes of the enforcers that try to wait them up ...
    Then ofcourse they'd have to see to it that they always have some manoeuvre points left when they want to return to the refugee
    Edited by Tipsy on July 30, 2016 10:09AM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @Edgemoor , I don't consider myself a PvP player, nor would I say I am a purely PvE player.
    I don't like the idea of instancing zones into PvE and PvP, in fact I detest such marginalization of players.
    I enjoy both aspects of the game, and I consider the vast majority of players play both PvE and PvP. My concept is trying to mingle players together, not separate them further.
    As for the PvP flagging:
    • Criminals have an option to flag themselves as Outlaws(opted in for PvP) once per day by interacting with a fence.
    • Enforcers cannot be forced into PvP (because they cannot be attacked first), therefore they can choose to play only the PvE repeatable quests, if they don't wish to participate in PvP.
    So there is an opt-out for both, just not on separate servers(sorry, instances).

    @STEVIL , the forum code is so poorly written that even though I can't see your posts, I can see when someone quotes them.
    After 2 threads and 17 pages, you still obviously haven't read the concept.
    It was MY idea to make NPC Outlaws guard the Refuge entrances, and YES, that idea made it into the concept. They don't have to have über AI, they just need to have Clairvoyance and a fairly short respawn time to help prevent Refuge camping.
    There are 20 PvE maps, usually with 2 Outlaw refuge entrances. Apart from that, players can enter a Refuge via the Footpads, or use Pirharri the Smuggler to fence their good from any place.
    If you also add the fact that Enforcers would have to go to the Headquarters after every kill to hand in the quest, I'd say camping is highly unlikely.
    But why do you care, anyway? You got your opt-out.

    @Dubhliam no matter how many times you try to be dismissive of other people as uninformed with your refrain about havent read concept blah, it still wont make it true.

    As for the basically hope of yours that while camping etc will be allowed it wont be a problem, i doubt any serious game designer would trust that kind of outcome to "highly unlikely" for a game played by so many.

    Finally, maybe you have noticed but what hapoens in pvp impacts pve in this game in many many many ways. So, even if i myself will opt-out of pvp content, i cannot ignore pvp development.

    For example, if the new pvp content adds its guaranteed first strike for enforcers to the game (lets asdume anyone still plays that once they realize it, for the sake of argument) that will influence arguments for future game changes to help characters survive the free one strike. That will influencce game changes to the whole game, not just pvp.

    I mean, i know you said you werent keeping "competitive duels" in mind as part of the goals for your system, but since many other players do feel that "having a chance" matters, your feelings about whether its important the enforcer v outlaw fight is even remotely winable wont matter as much as many others do.

    I mean, if zos had added "we dont expect the pvp fight between enforcers and outlaws will be competitive" to all their early info about the possible pvp component of justice, my bet is the pvp response would not have been as accepting.


    Besides, just bc you flip flopped once on opt-in opt-out doesnt mean you cannot flip flop again, especialky given that you continue to marry pve justice and pvp justice in one proposal, a decision i feel is more likely to just kill pve justice expansion.



    Edited by STEVIL on July 30, 2016 10:23AM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    grom1024 wrote: »
    Tipsy wrote: »
    A quick suggestion for the problem grom mentioned where enforcer camp near every outlaw refugee; mobile "merchant" cart the criminal/outlaws can find to instantly access the outlaw refugee
    There would be a daily oulaw/Criminal sign for npcs to understand,but first you need to gather the clues and find out the sign of the day as a criminal/outlaw

    It depends on amount of such carts. Too few (for example, single one), they will be camped as well, possibly with help of "outlaw informers" that will have a free pass through enforcers's camps. Too many would be other problem, as it would disbalance risks and rewards in TG (and possibly DB, I have not played DLC yet) daily quests. I would not like quest rewards to be nerfed as result.
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @STEVIL , the forum code is so poorly written that even though I can't see your posts, I can see when someone quotes them.
    After 2 threads and 17 pages, you still obviously haven't read the concept.
    It was MY idea to make NPC Outlaws guard the Refuge entrances, and YES, that idea made it into the concept. They don't have to have über AI, they just need to have Clairvoyance and a fairly short respawn time to help prevent Refuge camping.
    There are 20 PvE maps, usually with 2 Outlaw refuge entrances. Apart from that, players can enter a Refuge via the Footpads, or use Pirharri the Smuggler to fence their good from any place.
    If you also add the fact that Enforcers would have to go to the Headquarters after every kill to hand in the quest, I'd say camping is highly unlikely.
    But why do you care, anyway? You got your opt-out.

    Pirharri - is too greedy kitty, even by her race standards, and she does not clears bounty.

    Note, one does not have to camp entrance, it is enough to camp approaches to entrance. For Auridon, there are two points that needs to be controlled inside city, and three-four outside. Enforcer camps do not have to 100% effective for farming. 80% efficiency is enough to spoil the game for outlaws. I have not played PvP in this game yet, but from forum discussions, this is a popular tactics in Cyrodil as well to camp shards and other interesting places.

    Yes, when people get camped in Cyrodiil, they come to the forums to complain. Does that mean that they were grieved and it should be changed? No.
    They opted in for PvP and anything that includes the moment they set foot in Cyrodiil.
    That being said, those places are not camped 24/7, in fact, I'd say hotspots are camped less than 1% of the time. Simply because camping is not a fun activity.

    People have the option to sell via a personal fence, yet nobody uses her - this is a clear indication that the current system is not risky enough.
    Yes, Pirharri takes a lot of provision. But the whole idea of the Justice System is based on the risk-reward ratio. Since there is absolutely no risk involved when interacting with Pirharri, the reward is also lower.

    Also, people can't be ganked if they have no bounty, can they?
    How many Pardon Editcs have you used during your activities in the current Justice System? Two? Five? And how many Edicts are just taking space in your inventory, never to be used?
    The game offers so many options for players that legitimately want to participate in the Justice System, if those players refuse to utilize those options, that is their choice, and their risk.

    The whole concept presented in this thread is revolving around making Justice more risky than it currently is (making certain abuses not viable along the way) while also rewarding players for the higher risk.
    This risk factor is exactly what makes a good stealth game. And it is exactly what Justice in ESO needs, instead of the game holding player's hands along each step of the way.
    If players don't have the patience to play stealthy, they can always opt-out, and they don't have to worry about ganks.
    EDIT: Forgot to note: players cannot be attacked instantly. So "gankers" are actually discouraged from camping because not every gank will result in a PvP fight. Unless the Outlaw chooses to Flee instead of going to Court or paying the bounty.

    Here is a part of a long post by the devs when the Justice System got implemented: (thanks again, @starkerealm )
    When you are actually a criminal with an inventory full of stolen goodies and you accidentally pick up an owned apple near a guard rather than speaking with an npc, that’s when you get slammed and your goodies get taken by the guard, and you get hit with a massive bounty. This is a consequence of the system, though – it is a system of high risk and high rewards. Reducing the aspect of risk during the peak moments prior to reward would invalidate much of the current system. The system is part of the world and not just when it’s convenient – that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.
    Edited by Dubhliam on July 30, 2016 10:31AM
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    Risk and reward is also something that needs to be discussed I think.
    Someone mentioned earlier that no one would pick the opt -in choice if there was opt-out.
    I believe if players pick the opt-in they deserve higher reward as they take more risk.
    While it also gives a reason for players to take the opt-in because their is higher or different reward like tel var stone.
    Or perhaps opt-in and opt-out just get different types of reward that appeal to the type of player.
    So the opt-in choice becomes appealing to players who want a pvp set or something(or a special enforcer uniform)
    while the opt-out becomes appealing to players who prefer pve(unlocking a rogue companion or pet or something)
    Edited by Tipsy on July 30, 2016 10:37AM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    grom1024 wrote: »
    Tipsy wrote: »
    A quick suggestion for the problem grom mentioned where enforcer camp near every outlaw refugee; mobile "merchant" cart the criminal/outlaws can find to instantly access the outlaw refugee
    There would be a daily oulaw/Criminal sign for npcs to understand,but first you need to gather the clues and find out the sign of the day as a criminal/outlaw

    It depends on amount of such carts. Too few (for example, single one), they will be camped as well, possibly with help of "outlaw informers" that will have a free pass through enforcers's camps. Too many would be other problem, as it would disbalance risks and rewards in TG (and possibly DB, I have not played DLC yet) daily quests. I would not like quest rewards to be nerfed as result.
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @STEVIL , the forum code is so poorly written that even though I can't see your posts, I can see when someone quotes them.
    After 2 threads and 17 pages, you still obviously haven't read the concept.
    It was MY idea to make NPC Outlaws guard the Refuge entrances, and YES, that idea made it into the concept. They don't have to have über AI, they just need to have Clairvoyance and a fairly short respawn time to help prevent Refuge camping.
    There are 20 PvE maps, usually with 2 Outlaw refuge entrances. Apart from that, players can enter a Refuge via the Footpads, or use Pirharri the Smuggler to fence their good from any place.
    If you also add the fact that Enforcers would have to go to the Headquarters after every kill to hand in the quest, I'd say camping is highly unlikely.
    But why do you care, anyway? You got your opt-out.

    Pirharri - is too greedy kitty, even by her race standards, and she does not clears bounty.

    Note, one does not have to camp entrance, it is enough to camp approaches to entrance. For Auridon, there are two points that needs to be controlled inside city, and three-four outside. Enforcer camps do not have to 100% effective for farming. 80% efficiency is enough to spoil the game for outlaws. I have not played PvP in this game yet, but from forum discussions, this is a popular tactics in Cyrodil as well to camp shards and other interesting places.

    Yes, when people get camped in Cyrodiil, they come to the forums to complain. Does that mean that they were grieved and it should be changed? No.
    They opted in for PvP and anything that includes the moment they set foot in Cyrodiil.
    That being said, those places are not camped 24/7, in fact, I'd say hotspots are camped less than 1% of the time. Simply because camping is not a fun activity.

    People have the option to sell via a personal fence, yet nobody uses her - this is a clear indication that the current system is not risky enough.
    Yes, Pirharri takes a lot of provision. But the whole idea of the Justice System is based on the risk-reward ratio. Since there is absolutely no risk involved when interacting with Pirharri, the reward is also lower.

    Also, people can't be ganked if they have no bounty, can they?
    How many Pardon Editcs have you used during your activities in the current Justice System? Two? Five? And how many Edicts are just taking space in your inventory, never to be used?
    The game offers so many options for players that legitimately want to participate in the Justice System, if those players refuse to utilize those options, that is their choice, and their risk.

    The whole concept presented in this thread is revolving around making Justice more risky than it currently is (making certain abuses not viable along the way) while also rewarding players for the higher risk.
    This risk factor is exactly what makes a good stealth game. And it is exactly what Justice in ESO needs, instead of the game holding player's hands along each step of the way.
    If players don't have the patience to play stealthy, they can always opt-out, and they don't have to worry about ganks.
    EDIT: Forgot to note: players cannot be attacked instantly. So "gankers" are actually discouraged from camping because not every gank will result in a PvP fight. Unless the Outlaw chooses to Flee instead of going to Court or paying the bounty.

    Here is a part of a long post by the devs when the Justice System got implemented: (thanks again, @starkerealm )
    When you are actually a criminal with an inventory full of stolen goodies and you accidentally pick up an owned apple near a guard rather than speaking with an npc, that’s when you get slammed and your goodies get taken by the guard, and you get hit with a massive bounty. This is a consequence of the system, though – it is a system of high risk and high rewards. Reducing the aspect of risk during the peak moments prior to reward would invalidate much of the current system. The system is part of the world and not just when it’s convenient – that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.

    First bold - nobody using the personal fence -
    Actually that is incorrect. i know that for a fact. because i use her maybe once a day at least, sometimes more if injustice content is playing a more significant role that day. See, one of the aspects of reward that you keep not really seeming to see is TIME. Thats been a rather frequent issue with these various proposals. See, reward is not based on individual incident but gains over time. How much do you gain from playing content from time spent. RISK is a factor for certain, but for the majority of the casual content, and all the repeatable casusla activities including delving, questing, grinding and injustice RISK is meant to be minimal, frankly almost non-existent for those who know what they are doing.

    How does time fit into the payout for the EARNED REWARD portable fence? It means we dont have to take time to run back to the thieve den every time we want to fence our goods. Instead we can use that time to loot more goods... etc. This can be a major gain, as i suspect others know, when you are out "working" the leger skill lines because in doing that you are working thru lotsa and lotsa of trivial price items and not so focused on the rarer higher priced items. These multiple cheapies eat up inventory quickly. Stopping to run back to the den everytime your inventory gets full cuts down on your gains (reminder gains does not equal ONLY GOLD unless one chooses to see it that way for the sake of a point.)

    But That is just from an efficiency of play basis of argument. the much more obvious argument for time as a key factor is... TIME IS THE MOST PRECIOUS COMMODITY. I generate tons of gains through the game and my gold alone runs up to near a million and back down to under 100k over and over and over. So, when the portable fence lets me clear the inventory of the cheap fencables and keep playing... the 35% costing me maybe 100g (100g not 100k of g) is so trivial as top be an issue.

    So, as for her not being used "yet nobody uses her" that is just incorrect.

    Secondly, the part about that indicating the risk is too low... again no. the risk for injustice activities is on par with the other casual repeatable activites as are currently the gains over time. Anybody spending any amount of time grinding, delving, injusticing (either way - slow-with-no-bounty or fast-with-bounty) doesn't walk away with massive extra resources over someone who spends the same time grinding or delving or questing if they know what they are doing and prepare accordingly. Its currently ON PAR based on results - not based on incorrect assumptions about use of the smuggler assistant and extrapolations from that.

    And guess what, you dont have to take my word for it. You dont have to just take as a matter of faith that i mystically know how other folks are or are not using the smuggler. you can just go out there, kill a cp160 civie and check the gains, kill a cp160 misc warrior type and check the rewards, kill a cp 160 ogre, lather rinse repeat for a while and you will see the numbers - right there on the screen. Xp for civie is 455. Xp for warrior is 455. Ogre was higher iirc. All went down in 2-3 shots if not trying hard. most never laid a glove on me. You can find spots where you can sweep through civies repeatably without guards interfering (gaining lots and lots of bounty) just like you can find spots with plenty of mobs or ogres etc that you can rotate thru ad-infinitum (no bounty at all) and the xp gains will be on par with each other and the more tangible rewrds will be close - though in my experience the overall gains are better for the grinding and delving (depends on delves chosen delves) than for the injustice stuff. Now, of course, the types of gains differ. Injustice produces for the most part fencable goods, ie "gold" you have to convert from its original commodity form) while the others produce a wider assortment including lotsa mats, lotsa gear that you can decon for mats or sell or even use. But the net gains aren't too far out of whack and injustice isn't near the top.

    there is no compelling evidence that injustice risk is out of whack when compared to the other casual repeatable activities commonly done in the game.

    There are of course some who claim it is, some who just want it to be tougher, just like there are some who want the other casual content to be tougher. i for one would not have a problem with a game-wide flag for difficulty level for the content but i am very opposed to taking one aspect of it and deciding that one aspect of the content should be higher risk than the others.


    Second bold - leniencies and edict use - I use plenty. i try and keep four pardons and at least one leniency in each character inventory for emergencies as well as general use. Again, like before, TIME is a precious commodity and they save time. They are an acquired method to burn off bounty quickly so you can keep playing. their use or non-use dont make any statements about anything beyond the preference of the player in their playstyle.

    Third bold on the purpose risk reward etc - numerous questions about that whole risk-reward for the pve side remain unanswered - so maybe the whole point is getting misswed in the pvp focus?

    Forth bold about hand holding - yeah similar statements of near derision have been stated with almost every "game needs to be harder" thread so far on any subject.(quests grinds naked runs thru public dungeons whatever) regardless of whether one agrees with the need for power up or if one thinks "well its easy for those who know what they are doing but not for many..." , i think many folks would agree that the idea of a rise in difficulty for casual repeatable activities and content if adopted should be adopted across the game not in just one type of activity. Singling out one will skew things for certain players and not affect others, whereas a broader across the board "solution" to the so-called "problem" would let every player remain relatively equally affected.

    of course, oddly, its only injustice where the solution is seen as often as "just add pvp and..."


    Fifth bold on players opting out if they dont want to play injustice the way you want them to - This, as well as other comments like not getting bounty means not getting ganked - comes right back to a somewhat amazing element of your ongoing proposal i have to keep scratching my head over.

    You have made it clear how you feel the quicker bounty play style of the injustice is basically not the right way to play in lots of various ways of saying it. But that is the key head scratcher. IF your system adds a PVP element that succeeds in discouraging the get-bounty play options, then the pvp system you propose wont be used... you are building something with a basic result being "if we build it, they will go away." in a very real sense.

    HIGH-BOUNTY-STYLE Players who know what they are doing will be more likely do the PVP-opt-out or just switch away to other more rewarding content (choosing to opt-out of injustice activities themselves.)

    NO-BOUNTY (LOW BOUNTY) style players wont get boutnies or wont keep them and will technically be opted-in but not be involved really since bounty is the key for the initiating in the PVP side of things.

    PVP oriented players who know what they are doing wont be drawn by the "do lots of pve stuff and hope for a pvp fight" timing of the outlaw activities nor will they be encouraged by the "first strike" rule or the others aspects that make for "less competitive duels" kind of things.

    So, it keeps coming back to either it is focused on getting folks who dont know what they are doing vulnerable or hit harder than they are now or it is a lot of work for building something that will make itself extinct or lower participation.

    Its better sense to build things where you dont have to keep coming back to "but they can just do something else" as a defnse of what your new stuff does.





    Edited by STEVIL on July 30, 2016 1:25PM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    Risk and reward is also something that needs to be discussed I think.
    Someone mentioned earlier that no one would pick the opt -in choice if there was opt-out.
    I believe if players pick the opt-in they deserve higher reward as they take more risk.
    While it also gives a reason for players to take the opt-in because their is higher or different reward like tel var stone.
    Or perhaps opt-in and opt-out just get different types of reward that appeal to the type of player.
    So the opt-in choice becomes appealing to players who want a pvp set or something(or a special enforcer uniform)
    while the opt-out becomes appealing to players who prefer pve(unlocking a rogue companion or pet or something)

    There is a whole section in the concept named "PvP Justice rewards:
    Outlaw rewards
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Veteran Sacraments and Heists rewards often contain Epic, and rarely contain Legendary quality set pieces, including jewelry. Completing the "Prison Break" quest also rewards such set pieces. Sets that are included in the rewards are:
        Bahraha's Curse Syvarra's Scales Shadow Dancer Darkstride Night Mother Sithis' Touch


    Enforcer rewards
    • Enforcers don't gain gold from accosting or killing Outlaws. The amount of the bounty does count towards certain achievements though.
    • Joining the Iron Wheel guild, Enforcers get access to dailies and repeatable quests that reward participation in Justice System activities. The first completed On-duty activity often rewards Epic, and seldom rewards Legendary quality set pieces, including jewelry. Subsequent completions only reward experience in decreased amounts. Sets that are included in the rewards are:
        Bahraha's Curse Syvarra's Scales Magicka Furnace Fiord's Legacy Akatosh's Blessed Armor Jyggalag's Order (new*)
    Jyggalag's Order
    This set comes in any weight.
    2 piece bonus: adds Magicka regeneration
    3 piece bonus: adds 4% healing taken
    4 piece bonus: adds maximum Health
    5 piece bonus: Jyggalag's Blessing
    Immunity duration after using Break Free increased by 3 seconds.
    When breaking free from a Fugitive effect, gain Major Expedition and Major Berserk for 4 seconds.
    Note that even though the section is called PvP rewards, the Haggling passive change is general, and affects both opted in and opted out players.
    Other rewards are obtainable through participation in PvP instances. Those rewards are not exclusive only to opted in players, since Justice System sets have always been (and should continue to be) BoE sets. Meaning anyone could buy those sets from players that obtain them.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    Risk and reward is also something that needs to be discussed I think.
    Someone mentioned earlier that no one would pick the opt -in choice if there was opt-out.
    I believe if players pick the opt-in they deserve higher reward as they take more risk.
    While it also gives a reason for players to take the opt-in because their is higher or different reward like tel var stone.
    Or perhaps opt-in and opt-out just get different types of reward that appeal to the type of player.
    So the opt-in choice becomes appealing to players who want a pvp set or something(or a special enforcer uniform)
    while the opt-out becomes appealing to players who prefer pve(unlocking a rogue companion or pet or something)

    re the opted-in higher risk - what higher risk?

    from the current proposal

    Only NPCs can spot crimes.


    if the system opted-in doesn't allow PC enforcers to spot crimes, and brings them in at the point bounty is accrued, then players who know what they are doing will opt-in if they are skilled enough at beating the "get bounty parts" and so they will be avoiding the whole pvp part altogether while still being opted-in for the higher rewards.

    Folks who cant reliably beat the "get bounty" parts who know what they are doing would opt-out.

    Basically the higher risk is for those who dont know what they are doing - basically catching more of the infrequent and unprepared with more severe penalties - and so they aren't likely to see those nifty higher rewards.

    Now of course, there are parts in the basic proposal where opted-in and opterd-out you have tougher times than it is now to beat the "spot and get bounty" part, but again, where are their gains if the gains are linked to opted-in? Look at the OP (long as it is) and I think you can see lots and lots of "more risk" in terms of getting bounty" and in terms of scale of bounty for the opted-out player including but not limited to massively higher bounties from the heat multiplier specifically for the fast-high-bounty playstyle. Those increased risks and penalties for the opted-out they are numerous and obvious. EASY TO FIND. CANT MISS THEM.

    Now, point to the explicit increase in opt-ed-out gains? is it a long list? is it as long as the list of risks penalties increases? is it commensurate?

    I'll wait....

    Compared to other repeatable casual activities, injustice activities currently are on par as far as risk vs reward vs time with the others - questing, delving, grinding. All are easy, rather low risk and pay about the same over time in terms of net gains (for those players who know what they are doing and are prepared.) Jumping up the risk and difficulty for opted-out like is proposed here (with many unanswered questions being ignored) throws that set of activities out of whack.

    So the "cook" to the proposal is:

    If you are good and prepared and can beat the "get bounty npc" parts, opt-in for higher rewards and no extra risk.

    if you are not good enough to beat the "get bounty part" opt-out and hope you can beat the guards chase often enough to make it worth it or just opt out of the injustice activites for other content you can beat that pays as much or more over time with less risk.

    if you are not good enough and dont know it - well you get more hammered than you are now welcome to the new @Dubhliam @Tipsy world and "have a nice day."

    if you are really serious about "increased risk means increased reward" it would be reflected by rules where OPTED-In crimes can be spotted by enforcers (adding the risk at the same time they add the gain as the good are acquired) and any increase to opted-out risl would have an accompanying well defined increase in reward.

    is that what you see written?

    if instead you wanted to write rules to stick-it-to PVE-injustice players and reward those doing the PVP side, you would see rules which upped pve opt-out risk but gave no or insufficiently vague or valued gains and you would see pvp opted in gains coming right off the bat but the risk not coming until after (or avoidable.)

    is that what you see written?

    Edited by STEVIL on July 30, 2016 2:01PM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Tipsy wrote: »
    Risk and reward is also something that needs to be discussed I think.
    Someone mentioned earlier that no one would pick the opt -in choice if there was opt-out.
    I believe if players pick the opt-in they deserve higher reward as they take more risk.
    While it also gives a reason for players to take the opt-in because their is higher or different reward like tel var stone.
    Or perhaps opt-in and opt-out just get different types of reward that appeal to the type of player.
    So the opt-in choice becomes appealing to players who want a pvp set or something(or a special enforcer uniform)
    while the opt-out becomes appealing to players who prefer pve(unlocking a rogue companion or pet or something)

    There is a whole section in the concept named "PvP Justice rewards:
    Outlaw rewards
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Veteran Sacraments and Heists rewards often contain Epic, and rarely contain Legendary quality set pieces, including jewelry. Completing the "Prison Break" quest also rewards such set pieces. Sets that are included in the rewards are:
        Bahraha's Curse Syvarra's Scales Shadow Dancer Darkstride Night Mother Sithis' Touch


    Enforcer rewards
    • Enforcers don't gain gold from accosting or killing Outlaws. The amount of the bounty does count towards certain achievements though.
    • Joining the Iron Wheel guild, Enforcers get access to dailies and repeatable quests that reward participation in Justice System activities. The first completed On-duty activity often rewards Epic, and seldom rewards Legendary quality set pieces, including jewelry. Subsequent completions only reward experience in decreased amounts. Sets that are included in the rewards are:
        Bahraha's Curse Syvarra's Scales Magicka Furnace Fiord's Legacy Akatosh's Blessed Armor Jyggalag's Order (new*)
    Jyggalag's Order
    This set comes in any weight.
    2 piece bonus: adds Magicka regeneration
    3 piece bonus: adds 4% healing taken
    4 piece bonus: adds maximum Health
    5 piece bonus: Jyggalag's Blessing
    Immunity duration after using Break Free increased by 3 seconds.
    When breaking free from a Fugitive effect, gain Major Expedition and Major Berserk for 4 seconds.
    Note that even though the section is called PvP rewards, the Haggling passive change is general, and affects both opted in and opted out players.
    Other rewards are obtainable through participation in PvP instances. Those rewards are not exclusive only to opted in players, since Justice System sets have always been (and should continue to be) BoE sets. Meaning anyone could buy those sets from players that obtain them.

    RE Haggling passive:
    So, everyone opted-out of the pvp still gets the increased risks of all the various opted-out and their commensurate offset gains are that FOR THOSE WHO BOUGHT THE TG DLC and also spent 1-4 skill points on that skill then they get higher percentage bonuses?

    RISK_everyone - reward DLC buyers = @Dubhliam rules?

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    Like i said - compare the lists side by side risks vs rewards and " is it as long as the list of risks penalties increases? is it commensurate?"

    and the other reward is being able to give pvp players your gold thru the guild stores for the stuff they got out of the pvp opt-in?

    i gotta say - that my friend I really did not see that claim coming. So, you surprised me there with classifying that as a reward.

    Well done!





    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • I_killed_Vivec
    I_killed_Vivec
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just a couple of points....

    1. Justice PvP has to be opt-in. You then decide if you want to be a criminal or an enforcer.

    2. If you don't decide to opt-in then any PvP mechanic must be invisible to you. The game is exactly the same as it is now. People who want Justice PvP are being selfish - for their enjoyment. Fair enough, I'll be selfish too, for my enjoyment. You can have what you want as long as it doesn't affect me. A consequence of this is that guards will remain immortal - they are currently there to moderate my behaviour, they need to stay that way.

    3. Given some of the interesting proposals presented here it is no wonder that ZoS decided that the whole thing was too much of a bother, and far too open to griefing. It's obvious why it will never happen, just look at this thread!

    And...

    4. If there are so many players who want to be PvP Enforcers then how come they aren't rooting out the gankers who wait for unsuspecting questers handing in completed quests? How come they aren't already in IC trashing the gankers who hide round corners waiting to kill you and rob you? Why aren't they putting PvP justice into effect in the PvP areas?

    Where are all these people with such a strong sense of social justice?

    While I'm at it...

    5. To the person who gets so upset when he sees an alliance NPC murdered... it was a contract.

    [Edited to remove profanity]
    Edited by [Deleted User] on July 30, 2016 5:11PM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just a couple of points....

    1. Justice PvP has to be opt-in. You then decide if you want to be a criminal or an enforcer.
    • Criminals can toggle the Outlaw status by interacting with a Fence. This toggle is available to players without an active bounty and can happen once every 20 hours. Outlaws are "opted-in" for PvP Justice. Pirharri the Smuggler assistant cannot be used to toggle this status.
    The opt-in is already in place, please have a read through the proposed concept, or at least the TL;DR section.
    2. If you don't decide to opt-in then any PvP mechanic must be invisible to you. The game is exactly the same as it is now. People who want Justice PvP are being selfish - for their enjoyment. Fair enough, I'll be selfish too, for my enjoyment. You can have what you want as long as it doesn't affect me. A consequence of this is that guards will remain immortal - they are currently there to moderate my behaviour, they need to stay that way.
    I disagree. The Justice System is currently broken, abusable and does not provide long term content that can be enjoyed by all players. "Immersion" can go both ways, and some people don't want to see other people slaughtering whole towns. Also:
    • Criminals that are not opted in will still fight against immortal Guards.
    • Wanted Outlaws are able to damage and kill Guards.
    It's all here, in this thread.
    3. Given some of the interesting proposals presented here it is no wonder that ZoS decided that the whole thing was too much of a bother, and far too open to griefing. It's obvious why it will never happen, just look at this thread!
    Which proposals do you speak of? So far, I have done my best to include many restrictions that will prevent grieving, and so did other people.
    But you would know that if you have bothered reading this thread.
    And...

    4. If there are so many players who want to be PvP Enforcers then how come they aren't rooting out the gankers who wait for unsuspecting questers handing in completed quests? How come they aren't already in IC trashing the gankers who hide round corners waiting to kill you and rob you? Why aren't they putting PvP justice into effect in the PvP areas?

    Where are all these people with such a strong sense of social justice?
    This is not a valid argument against implementing the PvP part of the Justice System. "Unsuspecting questers" are in Cyrodiil, what did they expect? Justice should be left out of PvP areas, just as it is currently on live servers.
    Also, I assure you that gankers in IC get their share of ass-whooping.
    While I'm at it...

    5. To the person who gets so upset when he sees an alliance NPC murdered... it was a contract.

    <speechless>
    Edited by [Deleted User] on July 30, 2016 5:12PM
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    People who want Justice PvP are being selfish - for their enjoyment.

    Could say the same about all the people who are against a pvp option ,despite there being many players who love it..
    Some of the pve players still complain while they have full opt-out,still they would not award other players the pleasure of playing how they want.I call that the pinnacle of selfish.
    "you can have what you want as long as it doesn't affect me"

    I disapprove of the darkbrotherhood ways ,and alliance NPCs getting murdered is not something I like to see during my game experience,and I could complain like you complain about the thought of seeing pvp player even with opt-out
    But since they have induced this passive conflict and turned off hostility for the sake of pure pve there isn't much to do about the awkward situation with dark brotherhood, now is there?
    So if i'd follow the logic of "you can have what you want as long as it doesn't affect me", I'd inquire them to phase dark brotherhood out for me if I can't destroy or attack them,or no dark brotherhood anymore... :smiley:
    But there might be better solutions ,who knows.
    Still I quote this to show the selfish nature of this line of thought
    And the open game world where players play together is of nobody.(i see that now)

    To the person who gets so upset when he sees an alliance NPC murdered... it was a contract.

    I assume thats me ^^
    well,to the ones who get upset at the thought of seeing pvp players around..you have opt-out.

    fingerpointing will get us nowhere though...
    Edited by Tipsy on July 30, 2016 6:14PM
  • hingarthuub17_ESO
    hingarthuub17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    This pointless, useless thread just needs to die already.
    To the person who gets so upset when he sees an alliance NPC murdered...

    Um...here's a news flash: these NPCs aren't real. It's not reality, it's just a game, and these things are nothing more than pixels. And if this still isn't enough, those of who you get upset at the senseless killing of these NPCs can take solace (lol) in the fact that they'll just come back again after a few minutes.
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »

    I disapprove of the darkbrotherhood ways ,and alliance NPCs getting murdered is not something I like to see during my game experience,and I could complain like you complain about the thought of seeing pvp player even with opt-out
    But since they have induced this passive conflict and turned off hostility for the sake of pure pve there isn't much to do about the awkward situation with dark brotherhood, now is there?
    So if i'd follow the logic of "you can have what you want as long as it doesn't affect me", I'd inquire them to phase dark brotherhood out for me if I can't destroy or attack them,or no dark brotherhood anymore... :smiley:
    But there might be better solutions ,who knows.
    Still I quote this to show the selfish nature of this line of thought
    And the open game world where players play together is of nobody.(i see that now)
    ...

    So
    I play one of those green pact dont hurt plants characters? I am oh so traumatized ehen i see you and others ruthlessly murdering , mass murdering, serial killing even helpless columbine plants for greedy selling. I demand zos address tjis conflict by letting me jump you with pvp and first strike option OR let me not see your murdering ways.

    Good by you?

    I believe people were killing civies way before db in this game. Also pretty sure the milliom dollar bounties didnt start with db since BoW isnt the big bounty maker.

    Just curious, did your first post complaining about not getting to go after other players who were killing civies or your first post about how much other players killing civies and getting at your immersion come before or after zos said NO to pvp justice?
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    This pointless, useless thread just needs to die already.
    To the person who gets so upset when he sees an alliance NPC murdered...

    Um...here's a news flash: these NPCs aren't real. It's not reality, it's just a game, and these things are nothing more than pixels. And if this still isn't enough, those of who you get upset at the senseless killing of these NPCs can take solace (lol) in the fact that they'll just come back again after a few minutes.

    You must have missed the post questioning the idea thst npcs dont have souls.

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    @Dubhliam
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3204118/#Comment_3204118

    What the proposal lacks the most at the moment in my opinion is the criminal/outlaw version of your
    "Iron wheel skill line" for enforcers.
    +
    "
    UNYIELDING GUARD
    Reduces damage taken from Wanted players by 10/20/30/40%.
    RIGHTEOUS BLOWS
    Attacking a Wanted reduces their healing received by 10/20/30/40% for 15 seconds.

    "
    Aren't these 2 iron wheel skills a little overpowered? like 4/8/12% would be good enough?
    It has to stay exciting for both outlaws and enforcers.So the powers of the outlaws/criminals and the enforcers would need to be balanced.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3204120/#Comment_3204120

    "Getting seen by a Guard or Enforcer while inside the Prison automatically locks your cell door permanently."

    And then what are the options for the outlaw/criminal?There should always be an action a player can take?

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3204125/#Comment_3204125

    "Higher bounties help Enforcers to locate Outlaws more easily"

    like for each 10000 bounty,the oulaw gets 1 minute penalty when revealed on the map?
    So the reveal lasts 1 minute longer each 10000 bounty points ,and the outlaw has a harder time to go undercover & has to use more manoeuvre points to make up for the penalty.
    Edited by Tipsy on July 30, 2016 11:04PM
  • Edgemoor
    Edgemoor
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @Edgemoor , I don't consider myself a PvP player, nor would I say I am a purely PvE player.
    I don't like the idea of instancing zones into PvE and PvP, in fact I detest such marginalization of players.
    I enjoy both aspects of the game, and I consider the vast majority of players play both PvE and PvP. My concept is trying to mingle players together, not separate them further.
    As for the PvP flagging:
    • Criminals have an option to flag themselves as Outlaws(opted in for PvP) once per day by interacting with a fence.
    • Enforcers cannot be forced into PvP (because they cannot be attacked first), therefore they can choose to play only the PvE repeatable quests, if they don't wish to participate in PvP.
    So there is an opt-out for both, just not on separate servers(sorry, instances).
    .

    I was trying to compose a response, but I think all that has to be said has been said. I feel, as others appear to; like I am banging my head against Molag Bal's mace. And that's a good indication as to when to stop.

    And so I will leave you all to it and bow out.

    Safe travels and good hunting all.
    Edited by Edgemoor on July 31, 2016 4:07AM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    What the proposal lacks the most at the moment in my opinion is the criminal/outlaw version of your
    "Iron wheel skill line" for enforcers.
    +
    "
    UNYIELDING GUARD
    Reduces damage taken from Wanted players by 10/20/30/40%.
    RIGHTEOUS BLOWS
    Attacking a Wanted reduces their healing received by 10/20/30/40% for 15 seconds.

    "
    Aren't these 2 iron wheel skills a little overpowered? like 4/8/12% would be good enough?
    It has to stay exciting for both outlaws and enforcers.So the powers of the outlaws/criminals and the enforcers would need to be balanced.
    Actually, there is a global effect active for everyone that enters Cyrodiil or Imperial City, called Battle Spirit:
    Battle_Spirit.png
    Without damage and healing reduction, fights would be either over really quickly, or last indefinitely.
    Take a look at this video for example (one of many 1vX ESO videos):

    Can you imagine if this guy had equal grounds while fighting against Enforcers? He could basically get away with any crime.

    Nevertheless, Outlaws already have a damage reduction passive in the concept, just not as high as Enforcers:
    • Scales of Pitiless Justice DB passive now additionally reduce damage taken from Enforcers by 5/10/15/20%.
    Combined with the reworked Syvarra set:
    • Syvarra's Scales 4th piece bonus now reads: Add max Magicka, Take 20% less damage from Guards and Enforcers.
    And the Bastion of the Heartland set, Outlaws are able to stack 45%-65% reduction.

    As I have said before, this concept should not promote intentional PvP fights. It should look more like a cat and mouse game where Outlaws are given strengths to escape, and Enforcers are given strengths to pursue.

    There would be testing before implementing this of course, and I would be most interested to see what kind of builds people could muster up, and what is their feedback on the Justice passives and PvP Justice fights.
    "Getting seen by a Guard or Enforcer while inside the Prison automatically locks your cell door permanently."

    And then what are the options for the outlaw/criminal?There should always be an action a player can take?
    This is to provide a risk factor in the Prison.
    When the Outlaw is caught with a bounty, he is presented with three choices, Prison being one of them among Flee and Pay.
    Then, before being locked in the cell, he is presented to the Court, where he also has three choices: Withdraw funds (Pay), Fight for freedom in the Arena, and Sit the bounty out (Prison Cell).
    If the player chose to be locked in the Cell, he has a few choices:
    • sit out the bounty
    • unlock the cell door, retrieve his confiscated stolen goods, come back to the cell and wait out the bounty
    • unlock the cell door, retrieve his confiscated goods, and try to escape through the dungeon.
    The two latter options should also come with some form of risk. Meaning if you are not stealthy enough while inside the Prison, the wait out option is no longer valid, and your only choice is to try to escape.
    The "permanently" part was added when I though about what would happen if a player has insufficient gold when an Enforcer kills him inside the Prison. In that case, that player gets locked in his Cell and his only option is to sit the bounty out.
    "Higher bounties help Enforcers to locate Outlaws more easily"

    like for each 10000 bounty,the oulaw gets 1 minute penalty when revealed on the map?
    So the reveal lasts 1 minute longer each 10000 bounty points ,and the outlaw has a harder time to go undercover & has to use more manoeuvre points to make up for the penalty.

    This sentence is just a short summation of the Criminal Awareness passive:
    • As long as the Outlaw's heat is Disreputable, the Criminal Awareness passive enables Enforcers to see an Outlaw icon overhead the Outlaw. The icon is not visible while the Outlaw is in stealth.
    • The Criminal Awareness passive enables Enforces to get a notification that there has been a crime in <Area Name> when an Outlaw with a Notorious bounty or higher gets spotted doing a crime. Character names are not mentioned.
    • The Criminal Awareness passive enables Enforces to get a Large circle on the map for 30 seconds when an Outlaw becomes Fugitive, indicating an approximate location where the crime was committed. Each subsequent crime spotted while Fugitive will refresh the circle and reduce it's radius.
    • If the Criminal Awareness passive is maxed, Enforcers can see the exact location of a Wanted Outlaw on the map indicated by an Outlaw icon. If the Wanted enters stealth, the icon reverts into a circle on the map on the last non-stealthed location for 30 seconds.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
This discussion has been closed.