The Scribes of Fate DLC and Update 37 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Maintenance for the week of February 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – February 6
• EU megaservers for maintenance – February 7, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – February 8, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – February 8, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 15:00 UTC (10:00AM EST)

The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.

  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    Personally I'd destroy the dark brotherhood like was possible in the single player games, if that was possible.

    The only game I can think of where you can wipe out the Dark Brotherhood is in Tribunal. Also, notable, you couldn't join the Dark Brotherhood in Morrowind at all.
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Kalifas wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @Tipsy , I appreciate your effort with the suggestions, but I have already set my mind to an opt-out solution instead of the PvE flee.
    There is no point discussing it anymore, I won't revert the complete opt-out from the concept.
    If you wish to contribute to the concept, please have the suggestions embrace that idea of opting out.

    There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
    However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
    As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
    When a player is opted out. Just have a bed in a prison room that no one else can enter. He can either opt in and try to break out bars or just go to bed and his imprisonment term is over.

    If he goes to bed, upon returning to the open world. He will be unable to steal, murder, or fence for 1 hour.


    would you endorse also activity bans for all other in game activities on failure?

    Die in a delve blocked from all delves for an hour?
    Die while grinding, ban from open mob killing for hour?
    Die while in public dungeon... die in quest... etc?

    If not, why reduce the ability of players to pursue injustice activities with an actual cannot do this countdown?

    Participating in Injustice activities is just a different way to play for gains and fun like those are, but it seems to be the only one where under the sheeps hoid of improving or making it more fun rules and systems keep being thrown in to reduce the participation, not increase it.

    This is just the most explicit and truly literal example of that so far.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    @starkerealm in skyrim you have the option to destroy dark brotherhood too

    Right, if you just wax Astrid at the first opportunity. Which makes very little sense from a roleplaying perspective, because you've already announced you wanted to join, when you did the introductory quest... but, sure.
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    @STEVIL

    If it was as easy as changing channels,you'd just go on a server where the dark brotherhood does not exist.
    But since its a megaserver where all players play in the same environment,you can't just switch channels and are forced watching a show you don't like.
    At the same time "pve does pve" forces you to act as if you like the horrible show too:You see there is this passive conflict, but lets just keep pretending everything is good.
    That happens I guess if the game offers no choice in the matter and only santions one side,but if it didn't, members of the dark brotherhood and those trying to destroy it would naturally oppose.
    I do acknowledge there is a difference in the examples you mentioned.But that second example only applies to pvp without consent.


    Edited by Tipsy on July 27, 2016 11:51PM
  • Kalifas
    Kalifas
    ✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Kalifas wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @Tipsy , I appreciate your effort with the suggestions, but I have already set my mind to an opt-out solution instead of the PvE flee.
    There is no point discussing it anymore, I won't revert the complete opt-out from the concept.
    If you wish to contribute to the concept, please have the suggestions embrace that idea of opting out.

    There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
    However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
    As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
    When a player is opted out. Just have a bed in a prison room that no one else can enter. He can either opt in and try to break out bars or just go to bed and his imprisonment term is over.

    If he goes to bed, upon returning to the open world. He will be unable to steal, murder, or fence for 1 hour.


    would you endorse also activity bans for all other in game activities on failure?

    Die in a delve blocked from all delves for an hour?
    Die while grinding, ban from open mob killing for hour?
    Die while in public dungeon... die in quest... etc?

    If not, why reduce the ability of players to pursue injustice activities with an actual cannot do this countdown?

    Participating in Injustice activities is just a different way to play for gains and fun like those are, but it seems to be the only one where under the sheeps hoid of improving or making it more fun rules and systems keep being thrown in to reduce the participation, not increase it.

    This is just the most explicit and truly literal example of that so far.
    I in no way endorse PvP in a PvE centric world. I only provided a possible fix for the OP problem.

    The ban aspect doesn't apply in this circumstance. Those 3 examples do not involve PvP in any shape or form.

    As for how restrictions apply in PvE content. Many mmos have content restrictions to increase staying power. Some dungeons or public contents have 24 hour cooldowns, some have once a week.

    While I don't agree that PvE and PvP should be mixed. There should be repercussions for choosing a wrong strategy or is the concept of risk/reward not apply to rpgs? The gold bounty is not enough in terms of repercussion. If you have 2 million gold, a couple of thousand or hundred gold is a slap on the hand.

    There should be an actual Prison for PvE players who violate the rules of conduct and violate the rules of Tamriel Citizens. I just don't agree with other players being the police. Unless they opted in without constant reminder from the game asking you to opt in or opt out.
    An Avid fan of Elder Scrolls Online. Check out my Concepts Repository!
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Kalifas wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Kalifas wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @Tipsy , I appreciate your effort with the suggestions, but I have already set my mind to an opt-out solution instead of the PvE flee.
    There is no point discussing it anymore, I won't revert the complete opt-out from the concept.
    If you wish to contribute to the concept, please have the suggestions embrace that idea of opting out.

    There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
    However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
    As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
    When a player is opted out. Just have a bed in a prison room that no one else can enter. He can either opt in and try to break out bars or just go to bed and his imprisonment term is over.

    If he goes to bed, upon returning to the open world. He will be unable to steal, murder, or fence for 1 hour.


    would you endorse also activity bans for all other in game activities on failure?

    Die in a delve blocked from all delves for an hour?
    Die while grinding, ban from open mob killing for hour?
    Die while in public dungeon... die in quest... etc?

    If not, why reduce the ability of players to pursue injustice activities with an actual cannot do this countdown?

    Participating in Injustice activities is just a different way to play for gains and fun like those are, but it seems to be the only one where under the sheeps hoid of improving or making it more fun rules and systems keep being thrown in to reduce the participation, not increase it.

    This is just the most explicit and truly literal example of that so far.
    I in no way endorse PvP in a PvE centric world. I only provided a possible fix for the OP problem.

    The ban aspect doesn't apply in this circumstance. Those 3 examples do not involve PvP in any shape or form.

    As for how restrictions apply in PvE content. Many mmos have content restrictions to increase staying power. Some dungeons or public contents have 24 hour cooldowns, some have once a week.

    While I don't agree that PvE and PvP should be mixed. There should be repercussions for choosing a wrong strategy or is the concept of risk/reward not apply to rpgs? The gold bounty is not enough in terms of repercussion. If you have 2 million gold, a couple of thousand or hundred gold is a slap on the hand.

    There should be an actual Prison for PvE players who violate the rules of conduct and violate the rules of Tamriel Citizens. I just don't agree with other players being the police. Unless they opted in without constant reminder from the game asking you to opt in or opt out.

    first bold

    There are consequences for losing strategy. Death costs repairs as well as not getting experience. Death to guards can also UNLIKE MOST CONTENT cost you already acquired goods.

    When compared to the other content in ESO competing for casual play activity and reward such as grinding, questing, delving the relative gains per hour are not higher for injustice. Grinding earns a lot more for less risk and no long term issues like bounty at all. Questing (sp) is usually next, then delving then injustice then the rest of the casual content.

    So while you might want it to be harder, it is currently on par or slightly lower than its competitions for spending your time.

    But it's consequences are as severe or worse than the others. Won't lose any of my loot in a delve if I fall to the boss. Just a soul gem then kill it aND a little higher repair.

    Second bold

    Assuming you mean for the CHARACTER and not the player, should the delve boss lock you in a pit with her scams for an hour too?

    If you quest in Cold harbor and die, what would you see as appropriate "legal consequences" from thosel authorities? How long you thing Mola Ball laws require your character to sit out play for trying to escape or help an escape?

    Deciding to take one piece of content and apply a game balance skewing penalty while leaving all the rest as easy as it is... is inconsistent with the game design and likely simply reduces the participation in that content. Spending design time to cut down on participation is not good long term planning.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
    However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
    As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.

    What if the most valuable item in the inventory/bank account will temporarily be confiscated if a player avoids paying the bounty by having no gold in their inventory
    The player in question can not receive or send items from/to other players.
    The confiscated valuable item can be earned back by swapping the throne room,market place
    ,bringing goods to npcs,feeding horses at the stable,..each of those action is good for a certain amount of "release points" for your valuables/belongings
    If they are unable to pay back the value of the confiscated items(is the value for which the criminal is accountable for) they'll lose the confiscated items.
    And then the player can appeal to the NPC is charge of the town for a compensation ,which has a chance to be either accepted or declined based on how well you tried to make up by getting "release points" for your items.
    If you are granted a compensation,it would be based on the amount of release points you gathered and not the original price of the items confiscated.
    Edited by Tipsy on July 28, 2016 8:44AM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Flagging oneself for PvP sounds simple enough to work. However, I've seen in other games players find ways to force a player to be flagged.

    Here's a fun idea, on a NB, blade of woe some poor schmuck in Glenumbra, near the bank. Use Cloak to get to the fountain, and hide. Wait for a player to start spamming heals... WHEEE! :D
    There are multiple things proposed in this concept that serve to prevent such griefing:
    • The "prevent attacking innocents" option is now turned on by default for new characters. When the "you cannot attack this target..." notification is triggered for the first time, a tutorial is also shown that clearly states attacking innocents is a crime and will grant you a bounty along with instructions where to turn off the prevent attacking innocents option.
    • The "prevent attacking innocents" option also prevents players from healing or buffing players engaged in Justice Combat that are not in the same group. Does not apply in Cyrodiil or Imperial City, or when becoming a Wanted.
    • The "Auto loot stolen items" option now also applies to items on display.
    • Enforcers cannot turn off the "prevent attacking innocents option" and cannot loot stolen goods, pickpocket, and enter any Trespassing area, as well as Outlaw refuges, the Thieves Den or Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary.
    Needless to say, if someone has the Prevent attacking innocents turned off, he should be careful where he spams his heals.
    I am not quite sure how it works currently on live, but I'll try to do some testing.

    That being said, I encourage you to read through the concept and point out any possible exploits or ways to grief in it.

    That list might have more weight if it wasn't things that were originally suggested back when the system was being put into place. Including defaulting the "prevent attacking innocents" setting to on. ZOS took that advice under advisement and decided not to change anything.

    Also, on the subject of the Items on display...
    Further, having a “No Theft” toggle would remove interactivity in the world and it would eliminate one of the few non-combat risks that people might encounter. Sometimes even the most careful player will run into a hostile monster by accident (and sometimes they get killed by this), but we do not allow players to toggle off hostility. That would be quite odd, right?

    Or... as I wrote at the time:
    I'm sorry, are you literally claiming that having a player's character choose to pick up and pocket an item against the wishes of that player is an intended element of difficulty?

    You can follow the quote links if you want to see the discussion in full.

    Wow, I was not aware of this thread, thanks! It's a marvel!
    It's really interesting to see the devs' perspective when they initially implemented the Justice System.
    Divinius wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
    However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
    As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
    Well, currently, if accosted by an NPC guard, and you don't have the gold to pay, your only other option (outside of special abilities like clemency) is to choose to flee, correct? So opted-out players would have to escape the guards. Failing to do so would get them killed, and their stolen items repossessed. If they don't have enough gold to pay the bounty, the bounty remains and they could get accosted again.

    If you are looking for an additional penalty for not being able to pay the bounty when killed (for opted-out players), I'm not sure what to suggest. Their bounty would have gone up when they chose to flee, but you could give them an additional bounty increase (maybe add a "20% more bounty" penalty for not having enough gold?) or something. Seems like a boring solution, but it's something.

    Alternately, you could have some kind of PvE version of the Prison system. That would be a whole different thing to design though.

    I know your focus is to work on the PvP side of things, but with a full opt-out, you now have the entire other side of the new system (the PvE-only side) to flesh-out as well. That could be a whole thread in itself. :)

    im against the bold, as if you are killed or submit, your bounty should be absolved to avoid camping players. the PVP should be based on the bounty- if you have no bounty, you have no PVP as a criminal; if you are a guard, you will have PVP so long as you have your tabard equipped. having PVP wait timers (you had to wait for PVP to "drop") sucks imo. just because you ARE PVP-enabled, doesn't mean you should be FORCED to PVP in ESO-justice, as it just doesn't make sense to me in the context of the system. mind you, my opinion is that you have to first work for "PVP" status as a criminal in justice.
    In this concept there are no tabbards. You either are an Enforcer, or not. Being an enforcer needs to have certain restrictions to it, and switching back and forth should not be easy, just as vampire/werewolf is a long term commitment.
    Criminal can opt in by becoming Outlaws, and Enforcers cannot be forced into PvP if they do not want to. So, if an Enforcer decides to play only PvE, he certainly can do so without any PvP involvement.

    1 star= guards find you (they can be killed)
    2 star = the whole town of NPCs go after you (all can be killed)
    3 star = region wide PVP (you leave the region and lose your PVP status until a threshold is met to either world PVP status [see 4 star] or you rack up a sufficient bounty for 3 star)
    4 star = world PVP enabled when "x" amount of regions have pvp-enabled bounties (the whole world wants you now)

    NOTE: murder increases your bounty so use that option as a last resort... unless you're into that kinda thing, then more power to ya and kill your way out of town or the region.

    4 star status would need something extreme like you have 3 star rating in three or four regions or something to activate. so you can be wanted in grahtwood (PVP on), and be safe in craglorn (pvp off), until the needed threshold is met. the bounty timer continues, even when outside the region.

    star 1-2 keeps you in a PVE environment
    star 3-4 puts you in a PVP environment with increased rewards based off your bounty for "x" amount of time (the reward idea needs some refinement) or for x amount for the day/week.
    Since there is an opt out in this concept, there are different things to watch out for depending on your heat and bounty:
    Criminals (opt out)
    1. Disreputable - Mostly the same as current, now and then there will be a Hound accompanying a Guard.
    2. Notorious - The Hound will detect you more easily.
    3. Fugitive - Getting a bounty while Fugitive has a chance to spawn two Hounds and a Guard near you, the chance is proportionally higher with your bounty. Outlaws cannot trigger this.
    Outlaws (opt in)
    1. Disreputable - Same as above, plus Enforcers will see an Outlaw icon above your head.
    2. Notorious - Same as above, plus Enforcers will be notified about a crime committed in <area name>
    3. Fugitive - This is not a kill-on-sight heat for Outlaws. Enforcers will see a circle on the map where the crime was reported.
    4. Wanted - Reserved for opt in players. When accosted by either a Guard or Enforcer, by choosing flee, you gain this heat, and are now marked kill-on-sight. While Wanted and out of stealth, Enforcers can see your exact location on the map.
    to drop PVP:
    1) pay off the bounty
    2)bribe the NPC to remove your bounty
    3)submit to a player
    4) die to a player/guard
    5) wait out the clock
    6) (option for PVP-criminals) a passive that gives a chance to bribe an NPC to keep the goods, but lose gold paid equivalent to the bounty.
    Fences do exactly that.
    NOTE: there are options outside of PVP

    my last post before the other thread got locked:

    honestly, my opinion is either make it a balance of opt-in based on bounty amount or don't bother. if its purely a PVP thing, few will participate; if its fully optional, few will participate- both these options make it a waste of time and effort given the issues currently with the game that take greater priority. a balance of some where in the middle that compliments the PVPer, while taking into consideration of the PVEer, is worth exploring and has something to work with...

    to simplify:

    pure PVP system= not worth the effort
    pure opt-out=not worth the effort
    a balanced approach to both = worth exploring (note: i didn't say "doing," there is a difference)

    I don't think this proposed system would not be played since in my experience, the people that don't want nothing to do with PvP are in the lower percentiles.
    Most people enjoy both aspects of the game and will most likely opt-in, even if presented with an opt-out option.
    Also, there are certain new PvP instances with improved rewards for more incentive.
    Kalifas wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @Tipsy , I appreciate your effort with the suggestions, but I have already set my mind to an opt-out solution instead of the PvE flee.
    There is no point discussing it anymore, I won't revert the complete opt-out from the concept.
    If you wish to contribute to the concept, please have the suggestions embrace that idea of opting out.

    There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
    However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
    As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.
    When a player is opted out. Just have a bed in a prison room that no one else can enter. He can either opt in and try to break out bars or just go to bed and his imprisonment term is over.

    If he goes to bed, upon returning to the open world. He will be unable to steal, murder, or fence for 1 hour.

    I have been thinking something along those lines.
    But!
    If both Criminals (opted out) and Outlaws (opted in) are ported into the same Prison instance, then the Outlaws are at a number disadvantage compared to an instance where only Outlaws can port.
    Since the PvE part of the dungeon would be balanced with 6 players in mind, this would be penalizing the opted in players.

    A better suggestion would be that from @IndyWendieGo , where players are given an option to either access their bank to withdraw gold and pay the bounty, or commit to a Bail Bondsman.
    With the Bondsman idea, this is probably where the "no more stealing" restriction would have to come to prevent debt stacking, but I'm not really fond of that restriction.
    Although players should not have to complain about that- not having enough gold is clearly exploiting, they can remove the restriction simply by paying the bond. I don't think this restriction would have a large impact on new players that accidentally committed a crime, since accidental crimes come with low bounties.
    Edited by Dubhliam on July 28, 2016 8:40AM
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    @ Dubhliam
    I think criminals (opted out) need a different prison regime than outlaws (opted in)
    For the choice of opt-in or opt-out,wouldn't it be logical if there would be different interactions involved for those options?
    I think instant access to the bank is a luxury a prisoner shouldn't have.
    Personally I'd go for a solution that involves more social interaction like the example I gave above,
    where players get their valuables confiscated & have to earn release points by bringing crates to merchants,feeding horses at the stable,giving performance for the children of the orphanage,...
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    @ Dubhliam
    I think criminals (opted out) need a different prison regime than outlaws (opted in)
    For the choice of opt-in or opt-out,wouldn't it be logical if there would be different interactions involved for those options?
    I think instant access to the bank is a luxury a prisoner shouldn't have.
    Personally I'd go for a solution that involves more social interaction like the example I gave above,
    where players get their valuables confiscated & have to earn release points by bringing crates to merchants,feeding horses at the stable,giving performance for the children of the orphanage,...

    I don't like the confiscate part, if a player is intentionally avoiding bounty payment, then he can easily avoid confiscation too.

    The "community work" is actually a nice idea. It can work as an alternative way to pay out the Bondsman debt.

    About the banker, you have to look at it from all perspectives.
    If a player did not deliberately empty all gold from his inventory, then disabling the possibility to pay his bounty is forcing that player into an activity he does not want, and got himself into that situation by accident.

    IMO, a player should ALWAYS have an option to pay his bounty.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    @Dubhliam So what if they are presented with following choices;

    either the money is withdrawn directly from their bank account if they are missing it in their inventory

    or they can choose to do community work in order to pay a part or the full amount of what they are short in their inventory bag
    Ofcourse trading/mailing between players is disabled.They are however allowed to sell what they have in their inventory to a merchant to pay off their bounty.

    If they pay a part of the money with community work,the amount that is still missing is still withdrawn from their bank account.
    Ofcourse the bounty in this stage will no longer decay over time.

    But what if they have no sufficient money in either bank or inventory?
    will the bounty then decrease by questing ,the money normally earned during questing could in this case reduce the balance of the bounty.
    Until it is paid off and they start to earn money from questing and killing.
    Ofcourse they could still choose to do community work instead
    perhaps also bring materials to cooresponding npc.Like an amount of mountain flower to an alchemist using the haggle skill..
    Or perhaps if they have no money in inventory or bank ,they could kill rats/mudcrabs or something in the prison :smiley:

    For the community work there might be activities which reward more or less points to pay off the bounty based on your performance.
    Like at Baan dar's boast where you have to serve the crowd "
    I need them chicky in my belly" :blush:
    You could take the role of a waiter but the points you earn would be based on your performance.
    Also street musician,chef, swapping the floor at the market place/mage guild/throne room,..... would have a performance based release points
    In contrast to other tasks like fishing for the fishers at the docks, which would have flat release points based on the kind of fish you catch.
    Just like bringing a crate to a merchant

    Infact I think non-criminals should be allowed to do this too.But they get the actual money for it.
    While for a criminal it is directly used to pay off the bounty
    Edited by Tipsy on July 28, 2016 12:25PM
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    @STEVIL

    You have to keep the context in mind as we're trying to look for solutions here to adress the problem of players possibly avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    As you can see above,I wouldn't implement these tasks just for criminals,but for all players.It would be a way for criminals too to get the bounty money together IF they don't have the gold (otherwise they pay right away)
    The thing is players go through content one time in pve and its done,activities/community tasks like these would change that; they'd bring much more interactiveness to towns.
    Also making towns a much more lively place for visitors to behold.Perhaps a tickling curiosity even leads to players making more contact with other players as well.
    So I think it would do quite the opposite from "driving folk away from content as quickly as possible" ,it would bring folk together.

    Delve bosses could be another option,but smashin rocks for an hour?And then you complain about town activities being ingame downtime?
    The town activities are not "ingame downtime",having to sit it out in prison would be ingame downtime,though.
    Adding fun and excitement so lower level pve areas do not have to go obselete is my main concern.
    not "I'm a pvp player here to help your pve"
    If you see the other topics I created
    like content packs for guild events,you'll see that
    Edited by Tipsy on July 28, 2016 4:25PM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    @STEVIL

    You have to keep the context in mind as we're trying to look for solutions here to address the problem of players possibly avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    As you can see above,I wouldn't implement these tasks just for criminals,but for all players.It would be a way for criminals too to get the bounty money together IF they don't have the gold (otherwise they pay right away)
    The thing is players go through content one time in pve and its done,activities/community tasks like these would change that; they'd bring much more interactiveness to towns.
    Also making towns a much more lively place for visitors to behold.Perhaps a tickling curiosity even leads to players making more contact with other players as well.
    So I think it would do quite the opposite from "driving folk away from content as quickly as possible" ,it would bring folk together.

    Delve bosses could be another option,but smashin rocks for an hour?And then you complain about town activities being ingame downtime?
    The town activities are not "ingame downtime",having to sit it out in prison would be ingame downtime,though.
    Adding fun and excitement so lower level pve areas do not have to go obselete is my main concern.
    not "I'm a pvp player here to help your pve"
    If you see the other topics I created
    like content packs for guild events,you'll see that

    Firsat bold on context - I am keeping the context which is PLAYERS PLAYING A GAME and the impact changes will have on player and their willingness to engage in the variety of casual repeatable activities available to them. I am certain that the chance of having your character locked into some prolonged menial task like hauling crates for a merchant would not be the exciting lure to draw players into the casual repeatable injustice play. having their character locked into IN_GAME tedium costing them precious fun-time is a definite death kneel for gaining in participation numbers(remember a good number of casuals dont have plenty of alts to switch to and it seems your system doesn't let that matter) There is a reason there is nowhere in ESO a penalty for in game legit activites that results in "cannot play ESO" as a consequence.

    Second bold the one time content thingy - but havent we been talking about people committing murders, stealing etc and basically the REPEATABLE injustice activities - casual, sometimes quests but as noted often rrpeated? Currently if you hear the cries of some about how its too easy to get away with injustice activities and how much they are happening, the casual injustice activities are currently being repeated, are currently not one-and-done. yet, for those, you want to add a character in-game lockdown with fishing to pay off the time? There is a serious and drastic disconnect between your rhetoric, your targets and your "solutions."

    Third bold - delve bosses - yes smashing rocks. If injustice activities can benefit from the joy of forced lugging of crates eating away your ingame playtime and forced fishing eating away your ingame playtime the other casual repeatable activities ought to be equally "enlivened", right?

    Now before you say "but some love fishing in ESO" YES YES YES and they can just go do it without a need for forced fishing thrown onto others who dont. Just like those who like PVP and killing other player's characters can go do that now in the pvp zone of cyrodill without the need for PVP as part of PVE injustice consequences.

    Final bold on you being about RP not PVP see you other threads... absolutely... From just one page... four Tipsy quotes from multiple posts to highlight that very fact:

    @Tipsy said... among many
    1 Don't know about the rest but at such moments I'd love to help the guard kill that player & would love to see other players help kill that player.

    2 Fellow players who slit throat of NPC in their alliance in broad daylight deserve instant pvp flag as they by their action they threaten the cohesion of your own alliance.

    3 So in my opinion it is immoral for a player not to attack such a player when they see it happen, as it simply is something traitors would do.

    4 it is a shame that cyrodiil is the only place for pvp players to do their thing



    Finally, I gotta say and I am surprised it has to be said but...

    Stealing and murdering in ESO is not a crime. Even thoughn much hay has been made on the lines of justifying whatever egregious in game penalties one finds enjoyable to force on others, killing, murdering and stealing is ESO not a crime.

    A crime in ESO is using a hack, abusing an exploit etc... ie these are things against the rules agreed to in playing the game. Those can and do at times result in players being forced to not play the game. basically player lock-out, cannot play ESO.

    In ESO, stealing, murdering and all the other injustice activities are simply playing the game, playing the content designed and built, and as such the idea of effectively locking down a player or one of his character for X time for playing that character, essentially banning him from all the other content with that character (maybe his only one) shows a marked difference in the understanding of the difference between CRIMES and CONTENT.

    The injustice activities should not gain some new partial ban sort of penalty box for playing PVE content and failing. Sit in a room IN GAME, fish, haul crates should NEVER be the only options open to a player because of a bad sequence of PVE choices. Its just baffling how far folks want to go to make the PVP options the "lesser of two evils" or just flat out discourage the participation in the casual repeatable injustice activities at all.

    And keep in mind, while the rhetoric may be to keep the context on how its only if you cant pay the bounty, they are adding a bounty multiplier for heat so when a casual player gets an oppps moment and fights/runs etc - the bounty raises... as much as 4x. So the odds of a "ooops" turning into a bankbusting situation expecially for lower rank players - goes UP in their proposals. (Though those aren't being mentioned at the same time.)

    For me, the day i am presented with options of "go fish for an hour or sit in a cell for an hour or maybe look into this PVP alternative" is the day i scrap that now "temp-banned for failure" character and possibly the game entirely (unlikely but i would be furious so more likely just abandon that content as casual activities i engage in.)










    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Divinius
    Divinius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do have another, more general, question:

    Regardless of the details of the changes to the system, there's another issue to deal with if the justice system were to be modified substantially from its current state. Namely that there are currently players out there with bounties that are up to literally millions of gold.

    What would you do about them? It would be kind of unfair to implement a change that would make their lives far harder than they are now, without also removing their bounty. Would you just give everyone a free bounty reset when the changes were made?
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Divinius wrote: »
    I do have another, more general, question:

    Regardless of the details of the changes to the system, there's another issue to deal with if the justice system were to be modified substantially from its current state. Namely that there are currently players out there with bounties that are up to literally millions of gold.

    What would you do about them? It would be kind of unfair to implement a change that would make their lives far harder than they are now, without also removing their bounty. Would you just give everyone a free bounty reset when the changes were made?

    Apply new heat level multipliers and set new records?

    :-)

    Millions - thats a lot of mandatory fishing or maybe one PVP laydown grief?

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    @STEVIL
    The players are not locked in,they have the option to do those town activities and there would be plenty to choose from.
    YOu keep saying "oh that one is trying to force us in pvp" now its "oh you'd have our characters locked into igame tedium costing the precious fun time?
    For real..It is about options here.Some of the town activities could be dart throwing you name it.
    Why do you always keep going back to the "you try to force us" talking points in some way?

    Fishing to pay off their time would be one of the many many options,in no way a "character ingame lockdown"..If you don't want that,pick one of the many other activities.
    Or if you have no gold in your inventory or at the bank,go quest but the money goes toward paying the bounty? I dunno they are called suggestions for a reason.
    Each time you twist those suggestions and every time you somehow love to suggest that I try to force stuff on people while it is not true.
    I'm getting tired of it & having to spend time again and again explaining why the words and ideas you twist are not true.Starting to suspect you are doing it on purpose infact.
    And if this continues i'll just ignore you, or abandon the topic all together.
    With such an attitude you are not helping to find solutions at all.

    Forced fishing..dont make me laugh.They have plenty of ways to earn the money to cleans their bounty.
    These town activities will be fun for upholding players as well.Yet it provides a way for criminals to pay of the bounty IF they for some strange reason can't.
    It provides options for all types of players.So yes there should be options for pve/pvp players in the rest of Tamriel.
    Some interactivity for each type of player to enjoy.My opinion hasnt changed on that.
    You try to"bring up my past" in a "gotcha" kind of way with what I said?and you know what: I still agree with all the things I've said as I have hostile feelings toward the dark bortherhood.
    I believe i'm not the only one with hostile feelings towards them & I hope we can destroy them one day.Now we should all pretend like everything is alright between us ,so pve player don't feel threatened.Its laughable.
    Pve can ruin the pve experience for pve players when it induces such a passive conflict in a world where all players play together.
    I made my concern with "pve does pve" clear to you earlier.And I still believe pve and pvp should coexist everywhere.But it should also be cosensual.
    As you might have noticed i mentioned I don't know the solution to the dark brotherhood problem as players naturally oppose.
    Maybe the ones destroying the leaders dark brotherhood could show hostile on the map for member who are with the dark brotherhood,but the actual game environment acting as some kind of sanctuary where
    they are hostile yet can't attack each other.the game has created this awkward situation where hostility is turned off anyway..
    And conveniently you left out the other part where I said I find it a shame that cyrodiil is wasted content for pve players who want to avoid it.Tss

    you know what,you are not worth my time..i'm done.

    Btw you must have missed this poll which I voted on a while ago.I consider myself RP above all.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3196366/#Comment_3196366
    Edited by Tipsy on July 28, 2016 8:28PM
  • Edgemoor
    Edgemoor
    ✭✭✭
    Implementing PvP into the justice system changes would change the nature of The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC substantially. I doubt many would be pleased.

    In fact I recall a lot of resistance from the PvP player base when it was suggested to allow PvE'rs to play the story line in Imperial City without having to PvP. Understandable really considering it was a PvP update.

    Whether the justice system was intended to have a PvP component or not is immaterial now. ZOS have gone forward with it being a PvE activity and sold two DLC's based on that. To change it now would not be without consequence for them, let alone that it would be disrespectful to those players that purchased the DLC on the basis it was PvE and not PvP.

    There are other options that would allow you to PvP with the justice system and allow others to PvE ..... namely ask ZOS to implement two main instances in the game world; one PvE and the other PvP.

    The train for the PvP component for the justice system has left the station a long time ago. You need to consider alternatives that respect other players, and the design decision ZOS made.
    Edited by Edgemoor on July 28, 2016 7:58PM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    @STEVIL
    The players are not locked in,they have the option to do those town activities and there would be plenty to choose from.
    YOu keep saying "oh that one is trying to force us in pvp" now its "oh you'd have our characters locked into igame tedium costing the precious fun time?
    For real..It is about options here.Some of the town activities could be dart throwing you name it.
    Why do you always keep going back to the "you try to force us" talking points in some way?

    Fishing to pay off their time would be one of the many many options,in no way a "character ingame lockdown"..If you don't want that,pick one of the many other activities.
    Or if you have no gold in your inventory or at the bank,go quest but the money goes toward paying the bounty? I dunno they are called suggestions for a reason.
    Each time you twist those suggestions and every time you somehow love to suggest that I try to force stuff on people while it is not true.
    I'm getting tired of it & having to spend time again and again explaining why the words and ideas you twist are not true.Starting to suspect you are doing it on purpose infact.
    And if this continues i'll just ignore you, or abandon the topic all together.
    With such an attitude you are not helping to find solutions at all.

    Forced fishing..dont make me laugh.They have plenty of ways to earn the money to cleans their bounty.
    These town activities will be fun for upholding players as well.Yet it provides a way for criminals to pay of the bounty IF they for some strange reason can't.
    It provides options for all types of players.So yes there should be options for pve/pvp players in the rest of Tamriel.
    Some interactivity for each type of player to enjoy.My opinion hasnt changed on that.
    You try to"bring up my past" in a "gotcha" kind of way with what I said?and you know what: I still agree with all the things I've said as I have hostile feelings toward the dark bortherhood.
    I believe i'm not the only one with hostile feelings towards them & I hope we can destroy them one day.Now we should all pretend like everything is alright between us ,so pve player don't feel threatened.Its laughable.
    Pve can ruin the pve experience for pve players when it induces such a passive conflict in a world where all players play together.
    I made my concern with "pve does pve" clear to you earlier.And I still believe pve and pvp should coexist everywhere.But it should also be cosensual.
    As you might have noticed i mentioned I don't know the solution to the dark brotherhood problem as players naturally oppose.
    Maybe the ones destroying the leaders dark brotherhood could show hostile on the map for member who are with the dark brotherhood,but the actual game environment acting as some kind of sanctuary where
    they are hostile yet can't attack each other.the game has created this awkward situation where hostility is turned off anyway..
    And conveniently you left out the other part where I said I find it a shame that cyrodiil is wasted content for pve players who want to avoid it.Tss

    you know what,you are not worth my time..i'm done.

    @Tipsy
    First bold about my silly "precious fun time" disagreement. uhh... YES!!! Absolutely. The time I have to play is precious. the time others have to play is precious. this is because for many and in fact for all - it is limited. that is where taking casual content and adding "in the name of fun and excitement" limitation on what folks can do with their characters as consequence for failure in casual repeatable PVE activities is such an egregious idea. it is one that would drive folks away from that content as part of their casual repeatable activities and migrate towards the host of other casual repeatable content they enjoy as much but which doesn't risk locking them into a set of "Tipsy likes for you to run these in the interest of excitement" railroads.

    of course, in making the PVE side of casual repeatable pve injustice less desirable it might well have the possibility of making the PVP option "the lesser of two evils." The player might have to decide whether an hour fishing or lugging crates (after the player just got off his warehouse job what fun he can have in ESO lugging crates) is better or worse than just doing a laydown pvp "fight" with Tipsy or Dub or whomever is there to exploit the catch.

    Second bold and also the not helping to find solutions... as well as other content about how this isn't about forcing things onto others... etc

    "Solution" implies "problem" and so far the problem seems to be some folks want players playing casual repeatable pve injustice to have a lot more trouble in doing so, or select to opt-in to PVP.

    Let me highlight the difference and why i think you dont see anything i say as helpful...

    I have talked on the earlier threads about how i want to "improve and expand" the justice content after TG and Db. My suggestions include:
    1 - an entire justice oriented DLC
    2 - A justice centered guild with ties in the Mages and Fighters guild.
    3 - Whole series of main quest line and side quests advancing a justice skill set just like we saw in both Db and TG.
    4 - Repeatable full-world (PVE) missions thru Fighters guild (escort missions) and Mage's Guild (investigate missions)
    5 - Timed and multi-objective "red alert" crimestopper missions akin to heists and sacraments.
    and more fun stuff like the usual two world boss "dens of inequity" to clean out or maybe rescue whatever.

    basically, some people could see these as expanding the current content. Adding new stuff, even some more challenging stuff and more or less in keeping with and in sync with the existing types of content. it adds more, adds new and so on...

    But what it doesn't do is what keeps being brought up in certain folks other proposals.

    It does not take current repeatable casual injustice activities and add a bunch of new and additional penalties for failure to that casual activity that have no analog, no similar kinds of long lasting penalties in the other casual repeatable content such a delving or grinding or questing.

    My suggestions for "fun and exciting" doesn't hinge upon either forcing pvp or making pvp an option while at the same time making the PVE options harsher than the penalties for any other PVE casual repeatable failures. (Always strikes me as funny how those two seem to be wed.)

    Again, its not a crime to fail at the injustice content, so PLAYERS should not be punished for it by having their characters locked into a limited set of content for having the audacity to decide to try the casual repeatable content in the first place.

    No other casual repeatable pve content does that. if i lose in a delve boss fight, i can get up and contiue it or rez at the wayshrine and go grinding or go public dungeoning with my buds or anything else i want. But hey, if i fail in Tipsy's PVE injustice casual content - get the Dubhliam bounty multiplier and so on - maybe i get to go fishing to pay off my bounty.

    If you dont see that that is at its core out of sync with how this game is built, with how all the other repeatable content is (or if you see it but wont admit to it) then that says a lot.



    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Edgemoor wrote: »
    Implementing PvP into the justice system changes would change the nature of The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC substantially. I doubt many would be pleased.

    In fact I recall a lot of resistance from the PvP player base when it was suggested to allow PvE'rs to play the story line in Imperial City without having to PvP. Understandable really considering it was a PvP update.

    Whether the justice system was intended to have a PvP component or not is immaterial now. ZOS have gone forward with it being a PvE activity and sold two DLC's based on that. To change it now would not be without consequence for them, let alone that it would be disrespectful to those players that purchased the DLC on the basis it was PvE and not PvP.

    There are other options that would allow you to PvP with the justice system and allow others to PvE ..... namely ask ZOS to implement two main instances in the game world; one PvE and the other PvP.

    The train for the PvP component for the justice system has left the station a long time ago. You need to consider alternatives that respect other players, and the design decision ZOS made.

    I agree completely but so far there has been little to no drive for PVP justice that did not involve PVP opportunities to go after PVE players. Adding justice into cyrodil for instance usually gets zero traction and pushback.

    Simple fact is, for those who want pvp vs pvp, they can go right into cyrodil and go get some... no need to wrap a lot of sitting around hoping someone steals something deadtime to setup a PVP on PVP fight.

    But then it was directly stated that there was no gaol in this proposal to promote or setup "competitive pvp duels" when the issue of a pvp vs pve fight being imbalanced was pointed out. They even have an enforce gets first shot kind of rule added now. You dont get first strike guarantee in cyrodil as i recall but you might with pvp injustice.
    Edited by STEVIL on July 28, 2016 8:54PM
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Osteos
    Osteos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @Tipsy , I appreciate your effort with the suggestions, but I have already set my mind to an opt-out solution instead of the PvE flee.
    There is no point discussing it anymore, I won't revert the complete opt-out from the concept.
    If you wish to contribute to the concept, please have the suggestions embrace that idea of opting out.

    There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
    However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
    As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.

    Perhaps a "rest" or "serve time" option? Where it appears you spent some time in jail? So you go to prison but instead of trying to escape you interact with a bed or chair. You could make their armor degrade a bit to give the impression that time has passed. Or even a community service quest?
    DAGGERFALL COVENANT
    NA PC
    Former Vehemence Member
    Onistka Valerius <> Artemis Renault <> Gonk gra-Ugrash <> Karietta <> Zercon at-Rusa <> Genevieve Renault <> Ktaka <> Brenlyn Renault
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    Perhaps a "rest" or "serve time" option? Where it appears you spent some time in jail? So you go to prison but instead of trying to escape you interact with a bed or chair. You could make their armor degrade a bit to give the impression that time has passed. Or even a community service quest?

    helping out the townfolk would be one option for the players (one of many options for either upholding or criminal players) to earn some cash/pay off bounty.
    Another way would be participating in a kingdom quest.These can vary from town to town.

    Perhaps a spiderqueen has abducted some townfolk to make her egglings hatch and now there is an infestation of spiders.
    can a group of players succeed to exterminate the spiders & save some of the townfolk?
    The reward is based on amount of townfolk saved and nests destroyed and the players have to take down/save a minimum amount in order for the kingdom quest to succeed(they can fail too)

    another kingdom quest could be that some people of the town were banished years ago for worshipping deadra.
    But now they've come back as corrupted entities for vengeance for the exile,have abducted the mayor of the city and plan to sacrifice him ,along with some other town folk to the deadra.
    The players (can be upholding or criminal) have to find them in the allotted time.Ofcourse mind the deadric portals the corrupted can open to slow the players down

    Kingdom quests would be instanced sometimes,when a portal to a pocketrealm has opened up in town for example.
    But it sometimes happens in the open world as well

    The town tasks + the kingdom quests would be 2 of the many options for criminals to make amends for when they don't have enough gold on them (on purpose or not)
    A third option would ofcourse be just to pay the bounty for the criminal
    This brings more options for criminals,while it brings more to the table for roleplayers who like to blend into the scene of a town by helping out.
    For the travelling players towns will seem more alive too.
    So more activity and social interaction.

    Edited by Tipsy on July 29, 2016 9:20AM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Tipsy , yes - that is approximately how I will present this solution, apart from the "no trading" between players. I don't see the point in that restriction, in fact, if those players with Bondsman debt have friends that can help them instantly clear that debt, they should have the option to do so.
    I also very much like the idea of other people having the possibility to do community work. I think those would be one of the repeatable quests for Enforcers.
    Divinius wrote: »
    I do have another, more general, question:

    Regardless of the details of the changes to the system, there's another issue to deal with if the justice system were to be modified substantially from its current state. Namely that there are currently players out there with bounties that are up to literally millions of gold.

    What would you do about them? It would be kind of unfair to implement a change that would make their lives far harder than they are now, without also removing their bounty. Would you just give everyone a free bounty reset when the changes were made?

    Yes, I agree those people should have some sort of a pardon, but this is something that should be stated AFTER (IF it ever gets implemented) because otherwise it would only bring incentive for people to rank up bounty that will get erased. Also, the "community service" idea @Tipsy suggested can also be a partial solution to that, as well as the "Arena" suggestion.
    I would suggest some sort of "one time" quest that erases 1kk bounty upon completion.

    I'm actually glad you brought this up. While I didn't and won't explain HOW those people got such large bounties, did you stop for a second and think how long would it take for you to rack up such a massive bounty?
    I did a test a few days back, I played the Justice System content as recklessly as I could, and I only managed to rack up 25k bounty after hours of reckless criminal activities.
    It would take a full month of playing ONLY Justice, and in a very reckless way for me to rack up a 1 million bounty, and it would take me almost 3 years to rack up 33 million bounty.
    Yet some players had this kind of massive bounties long before Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood were even announced.
    Remember that guy that came to the forums demanding that ZOS makes Orsinium quest NPCs interactable to Fugitives? He had a 33kk bounty (IIRC), and that was just the second DLC release since the Justice System.

    These kind of bounties cannot be obtained by intended meas of participation in the Justice System. It is abusal.
    Edgemoor wrote: »
    Implementing PvP into the justice system changes would change the nature of The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC substantially. I doubt many would be pleased.

    In fact I recall a lot of resistance from the PvP player base when it was suggested to allow PvE'rs to play the story line in Imperial City without having to PvP. Understandable really considering it was a PvP update.

    Whether the justice system was intended to have a PvP component or not is immaterial now. ZOS have gone forward with it being a PvE activity and sold two DLC's based on that. To change it now would not be without consequence for them, let alone that it would be disrespectful to those players that purchased the DLC on the basis it was PvE and not PvP.

    There are other options that would allow you to PvP with the justice system and allow others to PvE ..... namely ask ZOS to implement two main instances in the game world; one PvE and the other PvP.

    The train for the PvP component for the justice system has left the station a long time ago. You need to consider alternatives that respect other players, and the design decision ZOS made.

    Since there is an opt-out, I don't see what people would complain about.
    There is no need for separate servers, if it can be played in two different ways at the same time.
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    @Tipsy , I appreciate your effort with the suggestions, but I have already set my mind to an opt-out solution instead of the PvE flee.
    There is no point discussing it anymore, I won't revert the complete opt-out from the concept.
    If you wish to contribute to the concept, please have the suggestions embrace that idea of opting out.

    There is currently one issue I am trying to address: players avoiding the bounty payment by having no gold in their inventory.
    A partial solution (at least for the opted in players) is this:
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he is then transferred to the Prison instance to wait out his bounty.
    However, this means opted out players are able to enter the Prison instance (that is reserved for opted in players only), which opens up PvP penalties.
    As I said, I am fully embracing the "absolutely no PvP for opted-out players" policy, and I would like some suggestions on how this could be improved.

    Perhaps a "rest" or "serve time" option? Where it appears you spent some time in jail? So you go to prison but instead of trying to escape you interact with a bed or chair. You could make their armor degrade a bit to give the impression that time has passed. Or even a community service quest?

    This is exactly what has been proposed earlier, and I think that is how I will incorporate it into the concept:
    If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty while either accosted or killed by Guards or Enforcers, he is then sent to Court, where he is presented with these options:
    Outlaws (opted in players):
    • Arena
    • Outlaw Prison
    • Withdraw funds from bank
    *Note: these options are also available to Outlaws that have chosen "go to court" in the accost window.
    Criminals (opted out players):
    • Solitary Cell (solo instance)
    • Withdraw funds from bank
    • Bail Bondsman (debt can be repaid at any time by paying with gold, and the debt can be lowered by doing community work)
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Tipsy
    Tipsy
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Since there is an opt-out, I don't see what people would complain about.
    There is no need for separate servers, if it can be played in two different ways at the same time.

    Amen to that, and I think the list of choices above provides all the choice a player needs to keep playing the playstyle they want.
    I guess letting another player pay the bounty on their behalf is also an option,suggested to disable trade between players becuase I thought it would be prone to abuse and encourage players to run around without gold since some rich sugardaddy would pay it for them.But now I see it would also limit the options for players wanting to help out other player so its a no go.

    About the solitary cell choice (solo instance for opted out criminals),will players be able to escape with difficult puzzle solving or something?
    I think there should alway be something to do,so which actions would the prisoner be able to take?

    And suppose we'd have many puzzles in place that a player needs to solve in order to escape the prison.
    What if the prisoner had such a high bounty (like 25k) that the time to escape took shorter than it would have took for the amount of bounty to decay?
    Or would the bounty remain while in prison?but just decay faster for each puzzle solved successfully?
    Or would the difficulty of the puzzles then depend on the amount of bounty the prisoner entered with?
    Edited by Tipsy on July 29, 2016 10:44AM
  • Divinius
    Divinius
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I'm actually glad you brought this up. While I didn't and won't explain HOW those people got such large bounties, did you stop for a second and think how long would it take for you to rack up such a massive bounty?
    I did a test a few days back, I played the Justice System content as recklessly as I could, and I only managed to rack up 25k bounty after hours of reckless criminal activities.
    It would take a full month of playing ONLY Justice, and in a very reckless way for me to rack up a 1 million bounty, and it would take me almost 3 years to rack up 33 million bounty.
    Yet some players had this kind of massive bounties long before Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood were even announced.
    Remember that guy that came to the forums demanding that ZOS makes Orsinium quest NPCs interactable to Fugitives? He had a 33kk bounty (IIRC), and that was just the second DLC release since the Justice System.
    From what I gathered, those people were grinding champion points by killing "innocent" NPCs over and over again for hours. In areas where there's a ton of killable NPCs in a small area, it apparently makes for great exp, but you are witnessed every time you attack and kill one, so your bounty goes up super fast.

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    These kind of bounties cannot be obtained by intended meas of participation in the Justice System. It is abusal.
    I 100% agree with it being an abuse, which is why I never felt pity for people that did this. And also why I would have no problem with a PvE system that would make bounties of that nature virtually impossible to play with. If you have a bounty of over 100k, you are obviously doing it intentionally. So, for players with bounties like that, if the game were to spawn 50 unkillable guards every 30 seconds directly on your face, I'm totally ok with that. As long as they are PvE guards. :)

    Edited by Divinius on July 29, 2016 1:00PM
  • ahstin2001nub18_ESO
    Divinius wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I'm actually glad you brought this up. While I didn't and won't explain HOW those people got such large bounties, did you stop for a second and think how long would it take for you to rack up such a massive bounty?
    I did a test a few days back, I played the Justice System content as recklessly as I could, and I only managed to rack up 25k bounty after hours of reckless criminal activities.
    It would take a full month of playing ONLY Justice, and in a very reckless way for me to rack up a 1 million bounty, and it would take me almost 3 years to rack up 33 million bounty.
    Yet some players had this kind of massive bounties long before Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood were even announced.
    Remember that guy that came to the forums demanding that ZOS makes Orsinium quest NPCs interactable to Fugitives? He had a 33kk bounty (IIRC), and that was just the second DLC release since the Justice System.
    From what I gathered, those people were grinding champion points by killing "innocent" NPCs over and over again for hours. In areas where there's a ton of killable NPCs in a small area, it apparently makes for great exp, but you are witnessed every time you attack and kill one, so your bounty goes up super fast.

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    These kind of bounties cannot be obtained by intended meas of participation in the Justice System. It is abusal.
    I 100% agree with it being an abuse, which is why I never felt pity for people that did this. And also why I would have no problem with a PvE system that would make bounties of that nature virtually impossible to play with. If you have a bounty of over 100k, you are obviously doing it intentionally. So, for players with bounties like that, if the game were to spawn 50 unkillable guards every 30 seconds directly on your face, I'm totally ok with that. As long as they are PvE guards. :)

    the bold was precisely what i had in mind for the justification for my PVP component recommendations.

    apply the bold scenario to my suggestion to my recommendations here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3209374/#Comment_3209374

    since im taking the time to reply, @Dubhliam tabards are not JUST to activate PVP, but to also provide a means for criminals to quickly and readily identify player guards, to aid in protecting them from ganking and just masses of player guards attacking at once. perhaps cooldowns should be applied, but the foundation of the system needs to be laid before those ideas are explored. with how pvp mechanics work, it actually increases the chance of a guard being ganked, than a criminal-pvper, as well as it should be. the guard-pvper already has a strategic advantage.
    Edited by ahstin2001nub18_ESO on July 29, 2016 7:26PM
    I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.

    Martin A. Treptow
    1894-1918
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tipsy wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Since there is an opt-out, I don't see what people would complain about.
    There is no need for separate servers, if it can be played in two different ways at the same time.

    Amen to that, and I think the list of choices above provides all the choice a player needs to keep playing the playstyle they want.
    I guess letting another player pay the bounty on their behalf is also an option,suggested to disable trade between players becuase I thought it would be prone to abuse and encourage players to run around without gold since some rich sugardaddy would pay it for them.But now I see it would also limit the options for players wanting to help out other player so its a no go.

    About the solitary cell choice (solo instance for opted out criminals),will players be able to escape with difficult puzzle solving or something?
    I think there should alway be something to do,so which actions would the prisoner be able to take?

    And suppose we'd have many puzzles in place that a player needs to solve in order to escape the prison.
    What if the prisoner had such a high bounty (like 25k) that the time to escape took shorter than it would have took for the amount of bounty to decay?
    Or would the bounty remain while in prison?but just decay faster for each puzzle solved successfully?
    Or would the difficulty of the puzzles then depend on the amount of bounty the prisoner entered with?

    I haven't thought about the escape possibility for PvE Solitary yet.
    I'll have to put some thought into it.
    Divinius wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I'm actually glad you brought this up. While I didn't and won't explain HOW those people got such large bounties, did you stop for a second and think how long would it take for you to rack up such a massive bounty?
    I did a test a few days back, I played the Justice System content as recklessly as I could, and I only managed to rack up 25k bounty after hours of reckless criminal activities.
    It would take a full month of playing ONLY Justice, and in a very reckless way for me to rack up a 1 million bounty, and it would take me almost 3 years to rack up 33 million bounty.
    Yet some players had this kind of massive bounties long before Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood were even announced.
    Remember that guy that came to the forums demanding that ZOS makes Orsinium quest NPCs interactable to Fugitives? He had a 33kk bounty (IIRC), and that was just the second DLC release since the Justice System.
    From what I gathered, those people were grinding champion points by killing "innocent" NPCs over and over again for hours. In areas where there's a ton of killable NPCs in a small area, it apparently makes for great exp, but you are witnessed every time you attack and kill one, so your bounty goes up super fast.

    Dubhliam wrote: »
    These kind of bounties cannot be obtained by intended meas of participation in the Justice System. It is abusal.
    I 100% agree with it being an abuse, which is why I never felt pity for people that did this. And also why I would have no problem with a PvE system that would make bounties of that nature virtually impossible to play with. If you have a bounty of over 100k, you are obviously doing it intentionally. So, for players with bounties like that, if the game were to spawn 50 unkillable guards every 30 seconds directly on your face, I'm totally ok with that. As long as they are PvE guards. :)

    the bold was precisely what i had in mind for the justification for my PVP component recommendations.

    apply the bold scenario to my suggestion to my recommendations here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3209374/#Comment_3209374

    since im taking the time to reply, @Dubhliam tabards are not JUST to activate PVP, but to also provide a means for criminals to quickly and readily identify player guards, to aid in protecting them from ganking and just masses of player guards attacking at once. perhaps cooldowns should be applied, but the foundation of the system needs to be laid before those ideas are explored. with how pvp mechanics work, it actually increases the chance of a guard being ganked, than a criminal-pvper, as well as it should be. the guard-pvper already has a strategic advantage.

    As I stated before, I am not fond of the tabard idea, since it opens up for possibilities for players that want to grief. In my opinion, there should be clear restrictions for Enforcers, and the choice to enlist would have to be a long - term one.
    The opt-out/in on the other hand can be switched once per day, but nevertheless, the criminal career is a long term choice.

    As for Outlaws ganking Enforcers, that possibility is disabled with this restriction:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    This concept, while embracing and promoting player versus player interaction should not be viewed as a way for people to duel. The Arena is in the works, we all know it is coming sooner or later.
    I do like your idea about giving the Criminals a way to identify Enforcer more easily.
    I will be adding this line into the concept:
    • Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Divinius wrote: »
    From what I gathered, those people were grinding champion points by killing "innocent" NPCs over and over again for hours. In areas where there's a ton of killable NPCs in a small area, it apparently makes for great exp, but you are witnessed every time you attack and kill one, so your bounty goes up super fast.

    100% agree with it being an abuse, which is why I never felt pity for people that did this. And also why I would have no problem with a PvE system that would make bounties of that nature virtually impossible to play with. If you have a bounty of over 100k, you are obviously doing it intentionally. So, for players with bounties like that, if the game were to spawn 50 unkillable guards every 30 seconds directly on your face, I'm totally ok with that. As long as they are PvE guards. :)

    @Divinius

    Re the bold

    have you tested this?

    just a few moments ago i went to wrothgar and gold coast with one of my 160+ers.

    Killing a single civie cp160 gains 455xp (plus possible bounty,) without BoW and the bounty for a straight two-shot kill but no witnesses but taking two shots was 175 which may reflect my passive but not sure.) took 2 shots each.
    NET 455xp and possible bounty 175. loot over three kills was 180gp worth of fencables so about 58g each.
    9small sample size of course but it what i got.)

    Killing a lone wandering disciple (warrior)(took 3 shots) netted the same 455xp

    Killing a single ogre cp160 three shots earned 683xp.

    So, it doesn't seem like there is much difference if any in the xp gains from killing civies of a given level than killing the typical red onsie fighter type and less than say normal easy dead ogres.

    So, how is it abusive to gain that xp and tons of bounty from farming a civie pop in a small town over aperiod of time than it is to farm a set of misc normal grinding varmints like lions or bears or tigers or in one of my favorites - ogres, spiders, giants, harpies, hags numerous misc warrior priest mob types etc alol in a normal constant run rotation?

    Well, other than the obvious fact that herding the mobs doesn't rack up tons of bounty?
    and except that the haul from the normal grinding is more diverse and more overall rewarding than mostly white and green fencables?

    neither case seems to have most any chance of failure. Both have degradation of your gear in the form of low cost repairs and both produce about the same levels of xp but one give you tons of bounty and is deemed so abusive that if they get "50 unkillable guards every 30 seconds directly on your face, I'm totally ok with that."???

    I have generally found most of your comments to be well reasoned and well thought out from a gaming point of view.... but i dont see this one as much in that set and more akin to the crowd who want to punish players for playing content in ways they dont prefer.

    So, honestly a question, what about the farming civies vs farming the other grinding targets for similar or even less xp makes you see it as an abuse of the game worthy of the type of heavy handed smackdown you suggest? I dont get that logic.

    Thanks in advance.




    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

This discussion has been closed.