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The PvP Justice System Concept, with opt out.

  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Update for closure sake to the tallies from yesterday:

    The two motifs sold for right at 12k total so the net results are:

    Delving 45m yields ~65k xp, ~15500g, 5 set pieces, 18 pieces to decon and 2 more motif pieces that will sell for about 15k in the next day or three- 10k if i want quicker.
    Grinding: ~64k xp, ~800g, 28 pieces to decon, 43 harvested nodes with 7 chest looted along the way (included in totals).
    Slaughter civies: ~33k xp, ~4300g (fences at den etc) with three safeboxes looted along the way (included in total)


    So the real question is whether you need or have good market for mats vs need/market for sets with need for gold bc smart delving vs grinding nets great xp and depending on your choice favors one over the other. Even if you double the yeidl over time from civie slaughter still wouldn't complete plus the bounty would be hindering to other activities and it takes a little more time managing the inventory/sales.

    Started todays delving - already got two more motifs - not yet done. So another ka-ching before getting busy.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are a few changes made to the concept, something I have had on my mind for some time, but decided to focus more on other, more important issues first.

    Since this concept should look more like a cat and mouse game, rather than simple player duels, I believe Enforcers should be given the ability to place traps (consumables like siege engines, they would have a decaying timer), and Outlaws would have to be mindful of traps and disarm them.
    - added this line in the Veteran Heists and Sacraments section:
    • Decoy Hiding Barrel Trap - Enforcers may place decoy hiding barrels in heists or sacraments, which trap an Outlaw that enters that barrel. Once inside the barrel, that player is unable to exit for 15-30 seconds, and the barrel is visibly shaking.
    - added these lines in the General section:
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Chest Trap - Enforcers may place decoy chests anywhere in the open world. Once unlocked, the chest explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    If you have any other ideas for traps, I'd like to hear them.

    Okay, so I believe this concept is almost complete, there are many details that still need refining, but all in all, I think this is a healthy base for the implementation of the second part of the Justice System.


    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    About this:
    Decoy Chest Trap - Enforcers may place decoy chests anywhere in the open world. Once unlocked, the chest explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.

    So now opening chests can lead to bounty for those opted in if they happen on a chest placed by an enforcer?

    Dear enforcers in the interest of "upholding the law""
    go to a regular spawn site for chest that is relatively near people
    pick its lock and take its stuff.
    replace it with trap chest.
    wait.
    if outlaw comes by, bam, bounty granted -have fun
    if no outlaw comes, grab real chest when it respawns and take its stuff... repeat.

    Likely serves them right for turning on the outlaw status.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    About this:
    Decoy Chest Trap - Enforcers may place decoy chests anywhere in the open world. Once unlocked, the chest explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.

    So now opening chests can lead to bounty for those opted in if they happen on a chest placed by an enforcer?

    Dear enforcers in the interest of "upholding the law""
    go to a regular spawn site for chest that is relatively near people
    pick its lock and take its stuff.
    replace it with trap chest.
    wait.
    if outlaw comes by, bam, bounty granted -have fun
    if no outlaw comes, grab real chest when it respawns and take its stuff... repeat.

    Likely serves them right for turning on the outlaw status.

    Yet again you show 0 knowledge of my concept.
    • Enforcers cannot turn off the "prevent attacking innocents option" and cannot loot stolen goods, pickpocket, and enter any Trespassing area, as well as Outlaw refuges, the Thieves Den or Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary.
    Basically, Enforcers cannot do anything that would be classified as a crime.

    Please check with the concept if there is already a solution to your proposed grieving situation.
    There most likely is.
    If there isn't, I'll gladly consider reworking any idea to prevent player on player grief.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    About this:
    Decoy Chest Trap - Enforcers may place decoy chests anywhere in the open world. Once unlocked, the chest explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.

    So now opening chests can lead to bounty for those opted in if they happen on a chest placed by an enforcer?

    Dear enforcers in the interest of "upholding the law""
    go to a regular spawn site for chest that is relatively near people
    pick its lock and take its stuff.
    replace it with trap chest.
    wait.
    if outlaw comes by, bam, bounty granted -have fun
    if no outlaw comes, grab real chest when it respawns and take its stuff... repeat.

    Likely serves them right for turning on the outlaw status.

    Yet again you show 0 knowledge of my concept.
    • Enforcers cannot turn off the "prevent attacking innocents option" and cannot loot stolen goods, pickpocket, and enter any Trespassing area, as well as Outlaw refuges, the Thieves Den or Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary.
    Basically, Enforcers cannot do anything that would be classified as a crime.

    Please check with the concept if there is already a solution to your proposed grieving situation.
    There most likely is.
    If there isn't, I'll gladly consider reworking any idea to prevent player on player grief.

    I show zero knowledge of your system?

    That is incorrect and full of crap as far as claims go.

    Basically, no not "basically" but ACTUALLY Nothing in your bulleted list says anything about chests. Picking chests and taking their stuff is perfectly legal IN BOTH SYSTEMS.

    As a matter of fact, even with your added traps, only getting spotted when a trap blows up gets bounty.

    Enforcer isnt picking looting trap chest, but real ones.

    Again no crime.

    Your standard refrain against many flaws in claiming lack of knowledge of others is telling when you cant even quote how the comment is wrong.

    Right now
    Looting chests is legal.
    Looting trap chests does not exist.
    Looting safeboxes is a crime.

    Your new system seems
    Looting chests is legal.
    Looting trap chests is a crime for outlaws.
    Looting safeboxes is crime.

    Basically...
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I actually meant safeboxes, the wording was wrong.

    - changed this line in the General section:
    • Decoy Chest Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy chests safeboxes anywhere in the open world. Once unlocked, the chest safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I actually meant safeboxes, the wording was wrong.

    - changed this line in the General section:
    • Decoy Chest Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy chests safeboxes anywhere in the open world. Once unlocked, the chest safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.

    and yet again your answer was that others didnt know what they were talking about...
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I actually meant safeboxes, the wording was wrong.

    - changed this line in the General section:
    • Decoy Chest Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy chests safeboxes anywhere in the open world. Once unlocked, the chest safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.

    and yet again your answer was that others didnt know what they were talking about...

    You are right, I jumped the gun. I am sorry.

    The idea I had was to have Enforcers place chests (safeboxes) that are illegal to pick.
    The wording I used was misleading, I have corrected it.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    - changed this line in the General section:
    • Guards now have the Dawnbreaker of Smiting ultimate and Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    - duplicated this line from the PvP Justice Rewards into the General section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    EDIT:
    - changed this line in the General section:
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. Once unlockedIf forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    Edited by Dubhliam on August 8, 2016 7:28AM
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    - changed this line in the General section:
    • Guards now have the Dawnbreaker of Smiting ultimate and Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    - duplicated this line from the PvP Justice Rewards into the General section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    EDIT:
    - changed this line in the General section:
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. Once unlockedIf forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.

    First bold - what was the trick i mentioned? Suggest something over the top and then "compromise" back to what you wanted in the first place so it doesn't seem unreasonable? Was that it?

    Second bold - good to see that while the massive up-tick in risk and inflating bounties and all that jazz hits everyone, those who have paid for the TG DLC and also spent 1-4 skill points into haggling can see some partial gains in their potential profit to help offset the risk-costs.

    Still no justification for why the ratio of difficulty-to-gain-vs-time for injustice needs to be raised so far out of kilter with delving, questing and grinding - its other solo casual repeatable content competitors.

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have made extensive changes to the concept that reverts any changes made to the "opted-out" part of the Justice System.
    With these changes, players will be able to continue playing the Justice system as it currently is.
    No interference from Enforcers, and no changes to the base system.
    - changes in the Becoming an Outlaw section:
    • On-Duty Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    - changes in the General section:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    • Outlaws cannot start a duel while in PvP Justice combat. If an Outlaw with a bounty is in a Duel, and gets accosted or becomes Wanted, the Duel is forfeited.
    • Every other patrolling Guard comes with a Hound and they share aggro. Hounds chase players without resetting, but are killable. Hounds can also swim, and attack players in deep water.
    • Guards now have the Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then presented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. If forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    - changes in the Heat Levels section:
    • Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier.
    • The multipliers for the Disreputable, Notorious, Fugitive and Wanted heats are 1,2,3 and 4 respectively.
    • Hounds can "sniff out" Notorious Criminals from greater distances (they have a larger detection radius than Guards). They trigger the "pay bounty", but their accompanied Guard provides the dialogue.
    • Whenever a Fugitive Criminal gains a bounty, there is a chance that a Guard accompanied by two Hounds will be spawned and engage the Criminal. The chance is proportional to the heat (higher heat will have a higher chance). This cannot be triggered by Outlaws (opted-in players) or in Trespassing areas.
    • The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals in two ways: either by attacking an On-Duty Enforcer or Guard, or by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
    • A Wanted can only attack Guards and/or Enforcers that have dealt damage to him/herare marked "On-Duty".
    - changes in the Enforcer Activities section:
    • At a certain level of the Iron Wheel skill line, Enforcers are able to mark themselves as "On-Duty" in the Activity Finder from the Group Menu. This puts them in a queueenables them to participate in Justice System activities and queues them for PvP Justice instances.
    • Enforcers cannot mark themselves as On-Duty while in a Duel, in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arena, and entering any of those will unmark them.
    - changes in the Iron Wheel skill line section:
    • Enforcers cannot use their Accost skill while in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arenaunless they are On-Duty.
    - changes in the PvP Justice rewards section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Outlaws have increased chances of obtaining stolen loot of higher quality by means of pickpocketing or looting dead NPCs.
    If you do find something in the concept that still impacts your opted-out gameplay in a way that it is different from what you currently play live, please let me know.

    This now leaves opted out players to continue slaughtering whole city populations, but hey...
    I guess it's just something that we'll have to accept and live with.

    Because God forbid anything from the current (perfect) system gets changed.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I have made extensive changes to the concept that reverts any changes made to the "opted-out" part of the Justice System.
    With these changes, players will be able to continue playing the Justice system as it currently is.
    No interference from Enforcers, and no changes to the base system.
    - changes in the Becoming an Outlaw section:
    • On-Duty Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    - changes in the General section:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    • Outlaws cannot start a duel while in PvP Justice combat. If an Outlaw with a bounty is in a Duel, and gets accosted or becomes Wanted, the Duel is forfeited.
    • Every other patrolling Guard comes with a Hound and they share aggro. Hounds chase players without resetting, but are killable. Hounds can also swim, and attack players in deep water.
    • Guards now have the Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then presented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. If forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    - changes in the Heat Levels section:
    • Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier.
    • The multipliers for the Disreputable, Notorious, Fugitive and Wanted heats are 1,2,3 and 4 respectively.
    • Hounds can "sniff out" Notorious Criminals from greater distances (they have a larger detection radius than Guards). They trigger the "pay bounty", but their accompanied Guard provides the dialogue.
    • Whenever a Fugitive Criminal gains a bounty, there is a chance that a Guard accompanied by two Hounds will be spawned and engage the Criminal. The chance is proportional to the heat (higher heat will have a higher chance). This cannot be triggered by Outlaws (opted-in players) or in Trespassing areas.
    • The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals in two ways: either by attacking an On-Duty Enforcer or Guard, or by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
    • A Wanted can only attack Guards and/or Enforcers that have dealt damage to him/herare marked "On-Duty".
    - changes in the Enforcer Activities section:
    • At a certain level of the Iron Wheel skill line, Enforcers are able to mark themselves as "On-Duty" in the Activity Finder from the Group Menu. This puts them in a queueenables them to participate in Justice System activities and queues them for PvP Justice instances.
    • Enforcers cannot mark themselves as On-Duty while in a Duel, in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arena, and entering any of those will unmark them.
    - changes in the Iron Wheel skill line section:
    • Enforcers cannot use their Accost skill while in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arenaunless they are On-Duty.
    - changes in the PvP Justice rewards section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Outlaws have increased chances of obtaining stolen loot of higher quality by means of pickpocketing or looting dead NPCs.
    If you do find something in the concept that still impacts your opted-out gameplay in a way that it is different from what you currently play live, please let me know.

    This now leaves opted out players to continue slaughtering whole city populations, but hey...
    I guess it's just something that we'll have to accept and live with.

    Because God forbid anything from the current (perfect) system gets changed.

    Glad to see you came around on the wisdom of this.

    But really, for the bold, thru this thread and others there have been plenty of responses saying we want more added to the PVE justice system, we want more fun and more interesting and so on and so forth. i dont knw if i have seen anyone say the current system is perfect and should not be changed.

    i nknow it stings to have your ideas rejected, just like getting rejected in social situations does too, but while its easy to dismiss it as "they wont accept any change" or "she is just not into guys" and those rationalization might mitigate the sting... the truth is sometimes an idea is rejected because of the idea being worthy of rejection not because the others are against ANY change... just like sometimes, she is just not into you or me.

    Dismissing the rejections doesn't lead one to make changes that lead to acceptance... like the opt-out means opt-out.

    As i have said, i am all for more justice player and even adding more jusitce play of harder level. many others have too.

    but props to you for taking the step you just did even with the parting shots.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I have made extensive changes to the concept that reverts any changes made to the "opted-out" part of the Justice System.
    With these changes, players will be able to continue playing the Justice system as it currently is.
    No interference from Enforcers, and no changes to the base system.
    - changes in the Becoming an Outlaw section:
    • On-Duty Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    - changes in the General section:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    • Outlaws cannot start a duel while in PvP Justice combat. If an Outlaw with a bounty is in a Duel, and gets accosted or becomes Wanted, the Duel is forfeited.
    • Every other patrolling Guard comes with a Hound and they share aggro. Hounds chase players without resetting, but are killable. Hounds can also swim, and attack players in deep water.
    • Guards now have the Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then presented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. If forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    - changes in the Heat Levels section:
    • Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier.
    • The multipliers for the Disreputable, Notorious, Fugitive and Wanted heats are 1,2,3 and 4 respectively.
    • Hounds can "sniff out" Notorious Criminals from greater distances (they have a larger detection radius than Guards). They trigger the "pay bounty", but their accompanied Guard provides the dialogue.
    • Whenever a Fugitive Criminal gains a bounty, there is a chance that a Guard accompanied by two Hounds will be spawned and engage the Criminal. The chance is proportional to the heat (higher heat will have a higher chance). This cannot be triggered by Outlaws (opted-in players) or in Trespassing areas.
    • The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals in two ways: either by attacking an On-Duty Enforcer or Guard, or by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
    • A Wanted can only attack Guards and/or Enforcers that have dealt damage to him/herare marked "On-Duty".
    - changes in the Enforcer Activities section:
    • At a certain level of the Iron Wheel skill line, Enforcers are able to mark themselves as "On-Duty" in the Activity Finder from the Group Menu. This puts them in a queueenables them to participate in Justice System activities and queues them for PvP Justice instances.
    • Enforcers cannot mark themselves as On-Duty while in a Duel, in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arena, and entering any of those will unmark them.
    - changes in the Iron Wheel skill line section:
    • Enforcers cannot use their Accost skill while in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arenaunless they are On-Duty.
    - changes in the PvP Justice rewards section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Outlaws have increased chances of obtaining stolen loot of higher quality by means of pickpocketing or looting dead NPCs.
    If you do find something in the concept that still impacts your opted-out gameplay in a way that it is different from what you currently play live, please let me know.

    This now leaves opted out players to continue slaughtering whole city populations, but hey...
    I guess it's just something that we'll have to accept and live with.

    Because God forbid anything from the current (perfect) system gets changed.

    Glad to see you came around on the wisdom of this.

    But really, for the bold, thru this thread and others there have been plenty of responses saying we want more added to the PVE justice system, we want more fun and more interesting and so on and so forth. i dont knw if i have seen anyone say the current system is perfect and should not be changed.

    i nknow it stings to have your ideas rejected, just like getting rejected in social situations does too, but while its easy to dismiss it as "they wont accept any change" or "she is just not into guys" and those rationalization might mitigate the sting... the truth is sometimes an idea is rejected because of the idea being worthy of rejection not because the others are against ANY change... just like sometimes, she is just not into you or me.

    Dismissing the rejections doesn't lead one to make changes that lead to acceptance... like the opt-out means opt-out.

    As i have said, i am all for more justice player and even adding more jusitce play of harder level. many others have too.

    but props to you for taking the step you just did even with the parting shots.

    Thanks for the praise, but I don't think we are any closer to a solution.

    People are bitter creatures, and they will always choose to fight over opinions and beliefs rather than working together to find a reasonable, tangible compromise.
    Just take a look at how thriving the other thread is, where the debate is mostly boiled down to semantics.

    The problem is... even with such a concept like this one, both "sides" of the community will still have something to complain about.
    Those opposing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with the difference in incentives.
    Those embracing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with unresolved murder rampages.
    Just to name a few.

    And the debate will spin on and on. With no real progress.

    But hey, I tried my best.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I have made extensive changes to the concept that reverts any changes made to the "opted-out" part of the Justice System.
    With these changes, players will be able to continue playing the Justice system as it currently is.
    No interference from Enforcers, and no changes to the base system.
    - changes in the Becoming an Outlaw section:
    • On-Duty Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    - changes in the General section:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    • Outlaws cannot start a duel while in PvP Justice combat. If an Outlaw with a bounty is in a Duel, and gets accosted or becomes Wanted, the Duel is forfeited.
    • Every other patrolling Guard comes with a Hound and they share aggro. Hounds chase players without resetting, but are killable. Hounds can also swim, and attack players in deep water.
    • Guards now have the Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then presented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. If forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    - changes in the Heat Levels section:
    • Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier.
    • The multipliers for the Disreputable, Notorious, Fugitive and Wanted heats are 1,2,3 and 4 respectively.
    • Hounds can "sniff out" Notorious Criminals from greater distances (they have a larger detection radius than Guards). They trigger the "pay bounty", but their accompanied Guard provides the dialogue.
    • Whenever a Fugitive Criminal gains a bounty, there is a chance that a Guard accompanied by two Hounds will be spawned and engage the Criminal. The chance is proportional to the heat (higher heat will have a higher chance). This cannot be triggered by Outlaws (opted-in players) or in Trespassing areas.
    • The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals in two ways: either by attacking an On-Duty Enforcer or Guard, or by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
    • A Wanted can only attack Guards and/or Enforcers that have dealt damage to him/herare marked "On-Duty".
    - changes in the Enforcer Activities section:
    • At a certain level of the Iron Wheel skill line, Enforcers are able to mark themselves as "On-Duty" in the Activity Finder from the Group Menu. This puts them in a queueenables them to participate in Justice System activities and queues them for PvP Justice instances.
    • Enforcers cannot mark themselves as On-Duty while in a Duel, in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arena, and entering any of those will unmark them.
    - changes in the Iron Wheel skill line section:
    • Enforcers cannot use their Accost skill while in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arenaunless they are On-Duty.
    - changes in the PvP Justice rewards section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Outlaws have increased chances of obtaining stolen loot of higher quality by means of pickpocketing or looting dead NPCs.
    If you do find something in the concept that still impacts your opted-out gameplay in a way that it is different from what you currently play live, please let me know.

    This now leaves opted out players to continue slaughtering whole city populations, but hey...
    I guess it's just something that we'll have to accept and live with.

    Because God forbid anything from the current (perfect) system gets changed.

    Glad to see you came around on the wisdom of this.

    But really, for the bold, thru this thread and others there have been plenty of responses saying we want more added to the PVE justice system, we want more fun and more interesting and so on and so forth. i dont knw if i have seen anyone say the current system is perfect and should not be changed.

    i nknow it stings to have your ideas rejected, just like getting rejected in social situations does too, but while its easy to dismiss it as "they wont accept any change" or "she is just not into guys" and those rationalization might mitigate the sting... the truth is sometimes an idea is rejected because of the idea being worthy of rejection not because the others are against ANY change... just like sometimes, she is just not into you or me.

    Dismissing the rejections doesn't lead one to make changes that lead to acceptance... like the opt-out means opt-out.

    As i have said, i am all for more justice player and even adding more jusitce play of harder level. many others have too.

    but props to you for taking the step you just did even with the parting shots.

    Thanks for the praise, but I don't think we are any closer to a solution.

    People are bitter creatures, and they will always choose to fight over opinions and beliefs rather than working together to find a reasonable, tangible compromise.
    Just take a look at how thriving the other thread is, where the debate is mostly boiled down to semantics.

    The problem is... even with such a concept like this one, both "sides" of the community will still have something to complain about.
    Those opposing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with the difference in incentives.
    Those embracing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with unresolved murder rampages.
    Just to name a few.

    And the debate will spin on and on. With no real progress.

    But hey, I tried my best.

    I believe that IF dueling proves the concept of managed, consensual low volume pvp play outside of pvp zones, there will be a more fertile grpund, more solid foundation for other such expensions.

    I also think the likelihood is it will be something other than justice that does it, given the fact that pvp justice has been considered and rejected AND the heat every discussion brings.

    For example, we might very well get quests where there are multiple "sides" like that one with various orc tribes, like the vampire dispute in eastmarch or maybe a village caught between warring vamps and werewolves. In those cases, a fully consensual opt-in with volume controls could allow players to opt-out and play it pve on either side... or choose to opt-in and pick a side in a pvp instance.

    But this keys on four things imo
    Complete opt-out
    Dueling level restrictions
    Separate from justice and it's heat.
    Added content that doesn't infringe on any current content.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Tandor
    Tandor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I have made extensive changes to the concept that reverts any changes made to the "opted-out" part of the Justice System.
    With these changes, players will be able to continue playing the Justice system as it currently is.
    No interference from Enforcers, and no changes to the base system.
    - changes in the Becoming an Outlaw section:
    • On-Duty Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    - changes in the General section:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    • Outlaws cannot start a duel while in PvP Justice combat. If an Outlaw with a bounty is in a Duel, and gets accosted or becomes Wanted, the Duel is forfeited.
    • Every other patrolling Guard comes with a Hound and they share aggro. Hounds chase players without resetting, but are killable. Hounds can also swim, and attack players in deep water.
    • Guards now have the Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then presented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. If forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    - changes in the Heat Levels section:
    • Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier.
    • The multipliers for the Disreputable, Notorious, Fugitive and Wanted heats are 1,2,3 and 4 respectively.
    • Hounds can "sniff out" Notorious Criminals from greater distances (they have a larger detection radius than Guards). They trigger the "pay bounty", but their accompanied Guard provides the dialogue.
    • Whenever a Fugitive Criminal gains a bounty, there is a chance that a Guard accompanied by two Hounds will be spawned and engage the Criminal. The chance is proportional to the heat (higher heat will have a higher chance). This cannot be triggered by Outlaws (opted-in players) or in Trespassing areas.
    • The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals in two ways: either by attacking an On-Duty Enforcer or Guard, or by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
    • A Wanted can only attack Guards and/or Enforcers that have dealt damage to him/herare marked "On-Duty".
    - changes in the Enforcer Activities section:
    • At a certain level of the Iron Wheel skill line, Enforcers are able to mark themselves as "On-Duty" in the Activity Finder from the Group Menu. This puts them in a queueenables them to participate in Justice System activities and queues them for PvP Justice instances.
    • Enforcers cannot mark themselves as On-Duty while in a Duel, in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arena, and entering any of those will unmark them.
    - changes in the Iron Wheel skill line section:
    • Enforcers cannot use their Accost skill while in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arenaunless they are On-Duty.
    - changes in the PvP Justice rewards section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Outlaws have increased chances of obtaining stolen loot of higher quality by means of pickpocketing or looting dead NPCs.
    If you do find something in the concept that still impacts your opted-out gameplay in a way that it is different from what you currently play live, please let me know.

    This now leaves opted out players to continue slaughtering whole city populations, but hey...
    I guess it's just something that we'll have to accept and live with.

    Because God forbid anything from the current (perfect) system gets changed.

    Glad to see you came around on the wisdom of this.

    But really, for the bold, thru this thread and others there have been plenty of responses saying we want more added to the PVE justice system, we want more fun and more interesting and so on and so forth. i dont knw if i have seen anyone say the current system is perfect and should not be changed.

    i nknow it stings to have your ideas rejected, just like getting rejected in social situations does too, but while its easy to dismiss it as "they wont accept any change" or "she is just not into guys" and those rationalization might mitigate the sting... the truth is sometimes an idea is rejected because of the idea being worthy of rejection not because the others are against ANY change... just like sometimes, she is just not into you or me.

    Dismissing the rejections doesn't lead one to make changes that lead to acceptance... like the opt-out means opt-out.

    As i have said, i am all for more justice player and even adding more jusitce play of harder level. many others have too.

    but props to you for taking the step you just did even with the parting shots.

    Thanks for the praise, but I don't think we are any closer to a solution.

    People are bitter creatures, and they will always choose to fight over opinions and beliefs rather than working together to find a reasonable, tangible compromise.
    Just take a look at how thriving the other thread is, where the debate is mostly boiled down to semantics.

    The problem is... even with such a concept like this one, both "sides" of the community will still have something to complain about.
    Those opposing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with the difference in incentives.
    Those embracing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with unresolved murder rampages.
    Just to name a few.

    And the debate will spin on and on. With no real progress.

    But hey, I tried my best.

    To be fair, these debates always end up as a division between those who want to impose their playstyle on others, and those who seek to preserve their playstyle against imposed changes. There is absolutely no reason why those proposing such changes cannot look to advance their cause further by making it clear at the outset that the changes they propose would be entirely optional. The evidence on this forum, however, is that they never do and that any concession on this point only comes, if at all, after many, many, pages of dialogue.

    Besides which, these sorts of proposals are always about adding PvP to a PvE system. If someone started a proper discussion about how to improve a PvE system by PvE enhancements, I think they'd end up with both a better discussion and, in the present context, a markedly better Justice System than the one we have now.
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Tandor wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I have made extensive changes to the concept that reverts any changes made to the "opted-out" part of the Justice System.
    With these changes, players will be able to continue playing the Justice system as it currently is.
    No interference from Enforcers, and no changes to the base system.
    - changes in the Becoming an Outlaw section:
    • On-Duty Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    - changes in the General section:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    • Outlaws cannot start a duel while in PvP Justice combat. If an Outlaw with a bounty is in a Duel, and gets accosted or becomes Wanted, the Duel is forfeited.
    • Every other patrolling Guard comes with a Hound and they share aggro. Hounds chase players without resetting, but are killable. Hounds can also swim, and attack players in deep water.
    • Guards now have the Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then presented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. If forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    - changes in the Heat Levels section:
    • Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier.
    • The multipliers for the Disreputable, Notorious, Fugitive and Wanted heats are 1,2,3 and 4 respectively.
    • Hounds can "sniff out" Notorious Criminals from greater distances (they have a larger detection radius than Guards). They trigger the "pay bounty", but their accompanied Guard provides the dialogue.
    • Whenever a Fugitive Criminal gains a bounty, there is a chance that a Guard accompanied by two Hounds will be spawned and engage the Criminal. The chance is proportional to the heat (higher heat will have a higher chance). This cannot be triggered by Outlaws (opted-in players) or in Trespassing areas.
    • The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals in two ways: either by attacking an On-Duty Enforcer or Guard, or by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
    • A Wanted can only attack Guards and/or Enforcers that have dealt damage to him/herare marked "On-Duty".
    - changes in the Enforcer Activities section:
    • At a certain level of the Iron Wheel skill line, Enforcers are able to mark themselves as "On-Duty" in the Activity Finder from the Group Menu. This puts them in a queueenables them to participate in Justice System activities and queues them for PvP Justice instances.
    • Enforcers cannot mark themselves as On-Duty while in a Duel, in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arena, and entering any of those will unmark them.
    - changes in the Iron Wheel skill line section:
    • Enforcers cannot use their Accost skill while in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arenaunless they are On-Duty.
    - changes in the PvP Justice rewards section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Outlaws have increased chances of obtaining stolen loot of higher quality by means of pickpocketing or looting dead NPCs.
    If you do find something in the concept that still impacts your opted-out gameplay in a way that it is different from what you currently play live, please let me know.

    This now leaves opted out players to continue slaughtering whole city populations, but hey...
    I guess it's just something that we'll have to accept and live with.

    Because God forbid anything from the current (perfect) system gets changed.

    Glad to see you came around on the wisdom of this.

    But really, for the bold, thru this thread and others there have been plenty of responses saying we want more added to the PVE justice system, we want more fun and more interesting and so on and so forth. i dont knw if i have seen anyone say the current system is perfect and should not be changed.

    i nknow it stings to have your ideas rejected, just like getting rejected in social situations does too, but while its easy to dismiss it as "they wont accept any change" or "she is just not into guys" and those rationalization might mitigate the sting... the truth is sometimes an idea is rejected because of the idea being worthy of rejection not because the others are against ANY change... just like sometimes, she is just not into you or me.

    Dismissing the rejections doesn't lead one to make changes that lead to acceptance... like the opt-out means opt-out.

    As i have said, i am all for more justice player and even adding more jusitce play of harder level. many others have too.

    but props to you for taking the step you just did even with the parting shots.

    Thanks for the praise, but I don't think we are any closer to a solution.

    People are bitter creatures, and they will always choose to fight over opinions and beliefs rather than working together to find a reasonable, tangible compromise.
    Just take a look at how thriving the other thread is, where the debate is mostly boiled down to semantics.

    The problem is... even with such a concept like this one, both "sides" of the community will still have something to complain about.
    Those opposing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with the difference in incentives.
    Those embracing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with unresolved murder rampages.
    Just to name a few.

    And the debate will spin on and on. With no real progress.

    But hey, I tried my best.

    To be fair, these debates always end up as a division between those who want to impose their playstyle on others, and those who seek to preserve their playstyle against imposed changes. There is absolutely no reason why those proposing such changes cannot look to advance their cause further by making it clear at the outset that the changes they propose would be entirely optional. The evidence on this forum, however, is that they never do and that any concession on this point only comes, if at all, after many, many, pages of dialogue.

    Besides which, these sorts of proposals are always about adding PvP to a PvE system. If someone started a proper discussion about how to improve a PvE system by PvE enhancements, I think they'd end up with both a better discussion and, in the present context, a markedly better Justice System than the one we have now.

    Strong agreement with last paragraph
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Daemons_Bane
    Daemons_Bane
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    [*] Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. Once unlockedIf forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.

    This made me giggle a bit, since you say that enforcers, in your system, can't do crimes.. I'm pretty sure that using bombs against other people counts as crimes :p
    Edited by Daemons_Bane on October 3, 2016 7:53PM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    [*] Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. Once unlockedIf forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.

    This made me giggle a bit, since you say that enforcers, in your system, can't do crimes.. I'm pretty sure that using bombs against other people counts as crimes :p

    Way to go looking for something in the "Change Log" to have something to complain about.
    These are removed.

    If you had to scroll all the way down to the change log to find such a small little detail to giggle about, I guess I am happy.
    You are easy to giggle.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • Daemons_Bane
    Daemons_Bane
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    So hostile you are :) I do not believe I ever complained about them? Merely pointed out that I think it seemed a little funny.. They were on this page, at about the same point where I got into the post after my last look.. If they have been changed, I guess it's in the part marked spoiler that I didn't care to take a look at

    Edit: Yup it seems they are marked out in the spoiler section that I didn't care to look at
    Edited by Daemons_Bane on October 3, 2016 8:33PM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tandor wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I have made extensive changes to the concept that reverts any changes made to the "opted-out" part of the Justice System.
    With these changes, players will be able to continue playing the Justice system as it currently is.
    No interference from Enforcers, and no changes to the base system.
    - changes in the Becoming an Outlaw section:
    • On-Duty Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    - changes in the General section:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    • Outlaws cannot start a duel while in PvP Justice combat. If an Outlaw with a bounty is in a Duel, and gets accosted or becomes Wanted, the Duel is forfeited.
    • Every other patrolling Guard comes with a Hound and they share aggro. Hounds chase players without resetting, but are killable. Hounds can also swim, and attack players in deep water.
    • Guards now have the Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then presented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. If forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    - changes in the Heat Levels section:
    • Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier.
    • The multipliers for the Disreputable, Notorious, Fugitive and Wanted heats are 1,2,3 and 4 respectively.
    • Hounds can "sniff out" Notorious Criminals from greater distances (they have a larger detection radius than Guards). They trigger the "pay bounty", but their accompanied Guard provides the dialogue.
    • Whenever a Fugitive Criminal gains a bounty, there is a chance that a Guard accompanied by two Hounds will be spawned and engage the Criminal. The chance is proportional to the heat (higher heat will have a higher chance). This cannot be triggered by Outlaws (opted-in players) or in Trespassing areas.
    • The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals in two ways: either by attacking an On-Duty Enforcer or Guard, or by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
    • A Wanted can only attack Guards and/or Enforcers that have dealt damage to him/herare marked "On-Duty".
    - changes in the Enforcer Activities section:
    • At a certain level of the Iron Wheel skill line, Enforcers are able to mark themselves as "On-Duty" in the Activity Finder from the Group Menu. This puts them in a queueenables them to participate in Justice System activities and queues them for PvP Justice instances.
    • Enforcers cannot mark themselves as On-Duty while in a Duel, in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arena, and entering any of those will unmark them.
    - changes in the Iron Wheel skill line section:
    • Enforcers cannot use their Accost skill while in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arenaunless they are On-Duty.
    - changes in the PvP Justice rewards section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Outlaws have increased chances of obtaining stolen loot of higher quality by means of pickpocketing or looting dead NPCs.
    If you do find something in the concept that still impacts your opted-out gameplay in a way that it is different from what you currently play live, please let me know.

    This now leaves opted out players to continue slaughtering whole city populations, but hey...
    I guess it's just something that we'll have to accept and live with.

    Because God forbid anything from the current (perfect) system gets changed.

    Glad to see you came around on the wisdom of this.

    But really, for the bold, thru this thread and others there have been plenty of responses saying we want more added to the PVE justice system, we want more fun and more interesting and so on and so forth. i dont knw if i have seen anyone say the current system is perfect and should not be changed.

    i nknow it stings to have your ideas rejected, just like getting rejected in social situations does too, but while its easy to dismiss it as "they wont accept any change" or "she is just not into guys" and those rationalization might mitigate the sting... the truth is sometimes an idea is rejected because of the idea being worthy of rejection not because the others are against ANY change... just like sometimes, she is just not into you or me.

    Dismissing the rejections doesn't lead one to make changes that lead to acceptance... like the opt-out means opt-out.

    As i have said, i am all for more justice player and even adding more jusitce play of harder level. many others have too.

    but props to you for taking the step you just did even with the parting shots.

    Thanks for the praise, but I don't think we are any closer to a solution.

    People are bitter creatures, and they will always choose to fight over opinions and beliefs rather than working together to find a reasonable, tangible compromise.
    Just take a look at how thriving the other thread is, where the debate is mostly boiled down to semantics.

    The problem is... even with such a concept like this one, both "sides" of the community will still have something to complain about.
    Those opposing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with the difference in incentives.
    Those embracing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with unresolved murder rampages.
    Just to name a few.

    And the debate will spin on and on. With no real progress.

    But hey, I tried my best.

    To be fair, these debates always end up as a division between those who want to impose their playstyle on others, and those who seek to preserve their playstyle against imposed changes. There is absolutely no reason why those proposing such changes cannot look to advance their cause further by making it clear at the outset that the changes they propose would be entirely optional. The evidence on this forum, however, is that they never do and that any concession on this point only comes, if at all, after many, many, pages of dialogue.

    Besides which, these sorts of proposals are always about adding PvP to a PvE system. If someone started a proper discussion about how to improve a PvE system by PvE enhancements, I think they'd end up with both a better discussion and, in the present context, a markedly better Justice System than the one we have now.

    This is exactly the reason I removed all and any changes that effect opted out players.
    So that they can continue playing the same system they play today.

    No imposing of any sorts. I just want what I want. PvP Justice.

    Also, note that the Enforcer part can also be played in a fully PvE manner (albeit lacking details in this thread). I mentioned an Enforcer storyline and several examples of repeatable PvE quests.
    The "On-Duty" actually serves as a PvP flag.
    All the PvE Enforcer activities can be done without any Outlaw interference.

    I can only talk for myself, but I for one, would be outraged if they added Enforcers without adding the PvP element.
    So much so that it would certainly be the straw that broke the camel's back.
    Edited by Dubhliam on October 3, 2016 8:53PM
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Tandor wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I have made extensive changes to the concept that reverts any changes made to the "opted-out" part of the Justice System.
    With these changes, players will be able to continue playing the Justice system as it currently is.
    No interference from Enforcers, and no changes to the base system.
    - changes in the Becoming an Outlaw section:
    • On-Duty Enforcers have an icon above their heads that Outlaws can easily identify them by.
    - changes in the General section:
    • Guards and Enforcers cannot be attacked unless getting attacked by them.
    • Outlaws cannot start a duel while in PvP Justice combat. If an Outlaw with a bounty is in a Duel, and gets accosted or becomes Wanted, the Duel is forfeited.
    • Every other patrolling Guard comes with a Hound and they share aggro. Hounds chase players without resetting, but are killable. Hounds can also swim, and attack players in deep water.
    • Guards now have the Silver Leash skill added to their skill pool.
    • If a player does not have sufficient gold to pay his bounty when either being accosted, or killed by a Guard or an Enforcer, he or she is then presented to the Court. Criminals have the choice to Withdraw Funds from Bank to pay the bounty, go to the Solitary Cell to wait out the bounty, or erase their bounty via the Bail Bondsman. Outlaws have the option to fight for their freedom in the Arena, Withdraw Fund from Bank, or go to Prison.
    • When choosing the Bail Bondsman option, the bounty is then increased by 5% and transformed into "debt". The Criminal is then considered Upstanding, and is unable to perform any criminal activities (just like Enforcers) until the debt is paid. While in debt, players have the option to do the Community Service repeatable quests to reduce the debt. Otherwise, any gold is automatically detracted from the inventory.
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Enforcers may buy and place Traps. Only Outlaw Criminals may see an interact with Enforcer traps.
    • Oil Slick Trap - Causes Outlaws with bounties to slip, knocking them down and stunning for 4 seconds. While in the AoE, movement speed is decreased by 70%. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Trip Explosive Trap - Outlaws with bounties are able to trigger an explosion dealing fire damage and additional fire damage over time. Also inflict Major Defile. Crouching Outlaws with bounties may disarm it.
    • Decoy Safebox Trap - Enforcers may place decoy safeboxes anywhere in the open world. If forcing the lock or when a lockpick would break, the safebox explodes, dealing fire damage, breaking the Outlaws stealth and preventing him from entering stealth for 3 seconds. This will trigger a bounty if seen by an NPC.
    • Outlaws are able to quickslot and use a Smoke Bomb - Grants Vanish to the user. Also blinds and silences any Enforcers in the radius for 3 seconds.
    - changes in the Heat Levels section:
    • Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier.
    • The multipliers for the Disreputable, Notorious, Fugitive and Wanted heats are 1,2,3 and 4 respectively.
    • Hounds can "sniff out" Notorious Criminals from greater distances (they have a larger detection radius than Guards). They trigger the "pay bounty", but their accompanied Guard provides the dialogue.
    • Whenever a Fugitive Criminal gains a bounty, there is a chance that a Guard accompanied by two Hounds will be spawned and engage the Criminal. The chance is proportional to the heat (higher heat will have a higher chance). This cannot be triggered by Outlaws (opted-in players) or in Trespassing areas.
    • The highest heat level- Wanted can be only triggered by Outlaw Criminals in two ways: either by attacking an On-Duty Enforcer or Guard, or by choosing the "Flee dialogue" when accosted by a Guard or Enforcer. This does not apply in Outlaw Prison, which is the only Trespassing area accessible by Enforcers - where Outlaws are constantly marked as Wanted.
    • A Wanted can only attack Guards and/or Enforcers that have dealt damage to him/herare marked "On-Duty".
    - changes in the Enforcer Activities section:
    • At a certain level of the Iron Wheel skill line, Enforcers are able to mark themselves as "On-Duty" in the Activity Finder from the Group Menu. This puts them in a queueenables them to participate in Justice System activities and queues them for PvP Justice instances.
    • Enforcers cannot mark themselves as On-Duty while in a Duel, in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arena, and entering any of those will unmark them.
    - changes in the Iron Wheel skill line section:
    • Enforcers cannot use their Accost skill while in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or any Group dungeon, Trial or Arenaunless they are On-Duty.
    - changes in the PvP Justice rewards section:
    • The Haggling passive from TG skill line now grants 10/20/30/40% bonus (from 2/4/6/8%).
    • Outlaws have increased chances of obtaining stolen loot of higher quality by means of pickpocketing or looting dead NPCs.
    If you do find something in the concept that still impacts your opted-out gameplay in a way that it is different from what you currently play live, please let me know.

    This now leaves opted out players to continue slaughtering whole city populations, but hey...
    I guess it's just something that we'll have to accept and live with.

    Because God forbid anything from the current (perfect) system gets changed.

    Glad to see you came around on the wisdom of this.

    But really, for the bold, thru this thread and others there have been plenty of responses saying we want more added to the PVE justice system, we want more fun and more interesting and so on and so forth. i dont knw if i have seen anyone say the current system is perfect and should not be changed.

    i nknow it stings to have your ideas rejected, just like getting rejected in social situations does too, but while its easy to dismiss it as "they wont accept any change" or "she is just not into guys" and those rationalization might mitigate the sting... the truth is sometimes an idea is rejected because of the idea being worthy of rejection not because the others are against ANY change... just like sometimes, she is just not into you or me.

    Dismissing the rejections doesn't lead one to make changes that lead to acceptance... like the opt-out means opt-out.

    As i have said, i am all for more justice player and even adding more jusitce play of harder level. many others have too.

    but props to you for taking the step you just did even with the parting shots.

    Thanks for the praise, but I don't think we are any closer to a solution.

    People are bitter creatures, and they will always choose to fight over opinions and beliefs rather than working together to find a reasonable, tangible compromise.
    Just take a look at how thriving the other thread is, where the debate is mostly boiled down to semantics.

    The problem is... even with such a concept like this one, both "sides" of the community will still have something to complain about.
    Those opposing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with the difference in incentives.
    Those embracing the PvP Justice implementation won't be happy with unresolved murder rampages.
    Just to name a few.

    And the debate will spin on and on. With no real progress.

    But hey, I tried my best.

    To be fair, these debates always end up as a division between those who want to impose their playstyle on others, and those who seek to preserve their playstyle against imposed changes. There is absolutely no reason why those proposing such changes cannot look to advance their cause further by making it clear at the outset that the changes they propose would be entirely optional. The evidence on this forum, however, is that they never do and that any concession on this point only comes, if at all, after many, many, pages of dialogue.

    Besides which, these sorts of proposals are always about adding PvP to a PvE system. If someone started a proper discussion about how to improve a PvE system by PvE enhancements, I think they'd end up with both a better discussion and, in the present context, a markedly better Justice System than the one we have now.

    This is exactly the reason I removed all and any changes that effect opted out players.
    So that they can continue playing the same system they play today.

    No imposing of any sorts. I just want what I want. PvP Justice.

    Also, note that the Enforcer part can also be played in a fully PvE manner (albeit lacking details in this thread). I mentioned an Enforcer storyline and several examples of repeatable PvE quests.
    The "On-Duty" actually serves as a PvP flag.
    All the PvE Enforcer activities can be done without any Outlaw interference.

    I can only talk for myself, but I for one, would be outraged if they added Enforcers without adding the PvP element.
    So much so that it would certainly be the straw that broke the camel's back.

    You using the term enforcer here, which is tied directly to PVP justice so strongly is confusing so let me ask:

    i have suggested in numerous threads before and after this one a Justice themed DLC (contrasting the two injustice themed ones we have now and the Injustice system we have now.)
    In this DLC would be the following PVE content where the PC takes the role of a form of lawman
    A new guild or order within existing guilds (In a much early thrad i referred to it as the Guild of Chris a steal from the order of St Christopher the patron saint of travellers and a nod back to the knights templar keeping roads safe.):
    A new skill line.
    Two new world boss events dealing with criminal dens.
    two new delves.
    one major questline and several minor ones.
    repeatable dailies - two types - one flavor is going to cities around the world to find wanted folks. but the oehr sends you to some wayshrine to meet a caravan and escort them to a new waypoint - all with troubles along the way (even noted it as a good way to helo OneT if the new guild would portal you to the other place - exposing wayshrines in remote lands for you and spotlight the faction-crossing nature of the guilds.)
    Even some higher difficulty top-end content that was repeatable - like the heists and sacraments are for injustice - could have "hostages" be the story-basis for why you sneak in or have a timer on you.
    Hmm... couple more things bu i cant remember them - must be having a Perry moment.


    Would the addition of justice themed content like this be what you consider "adding enforcers without adding the pvp element" if such a DLC where the players characters do all this kida stuff was introduced without also adding PVP justice?

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Introduction
    My opinion is that the Iron Wheel guild story line and skill line should come as an extension of the Dark Brotherhood DLC, since it is lacking true endgame content. It is ultimately to ZOS to look at the revenue of each particular DLC, and decide whether they will upgrade some of the past DLC, or sell it as a part of a new DLC.
    I am using names like Outlaw, Enforcer, the Iron Wheel guild, Prison etc. as general terms that most forum users will recognize and understand instantly. That does not mean some other names could not be given that are more appropriate.
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Enforcer activities
    • There is an extensive Iron Wheel storyline, during which you will encounter many new NPC characters, along with some TG and DB NPCs like Walks Softly, Silver Claw, Kor and Hildegard.
    • Certain repeatable quests send the Enforcer in search of missing persons (NPCs) or wanted criminals (NPCs) that the Enforcer must find with vague descriptions and sketches. Note: some of those NPCs will turn aggressive when interacted with. Finding two or three missing persons before handing in will grant better rewards.
    • There are also different kinds of repeatable quests called "Community Service" quests. Those include anything from escorting Merchants, delivering crafting crates, finding lost pets and other.

    I hope you can see our proposals are not that dissimilar. The only difference is that I propose adding PvP options alongside it.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Introduction
    My opinion is that the Iron Wheel guild story line and skill line should come as an extension of the Dark Brotherhood DLC, since it is lacking true endgame content. It is ultimately to ZOS to look at the revenue of each particular DLC, and decide whether they will upgrade some of the past DLC, or sell it as a part of a new DLC.
    I am using names like Outlaw, Enforcer, the Iron Wheel guild, Prison etc. as general terms that most forum users will recognize and understand instantly. That does not mean some other names could not be given that are more appropriate.
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Enforcer activities
    • There is an extensive Iron Wheel storyline, during which you will encounter many new NPC characters, along with some TG and DB NPCs like Walks Softly, Silver Claw, Kor and Hildegard.
    • Certain repeatable quests send the Enforcer in search of missing persons (NPCs) or wanted criminals (NPCs) that the Enforcer must find with vague descriptions and sketches. Note: some of those NPCs will turn aggressive when interacted with. Finding two or three missing persons before handing in will grant better rewards.
    • There are also different kinds of repeatable quests called "Community Service" quests. Those include anything from escorting Merchants, delivering crafting crates, finding lost pets and other.

    I hope you can see our proposals are not that dissimilar. The only difference is that I propose adding PvP options alongside it.

    So is that a YES, adding the content i describe would cause you outrage maybe to straw break levels if it was not paired with a PVP justice inclusion?

    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Whatzituyah
    Whatzituyah
    ✭✭✭✭
    The problem is that there is not going to be a compromise here because people will always find a way to grief players and if you have an opt out noone would want to risk goods over PvP. No win scenario here because its better off half baked with the said problems of cooking it to "perfection" which I don't think is possible.
  • Daemons_Bane
    Daemons_Bane
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    The problem is that there is not going to be a compromise here because people will always find a way to grief players and if you have an opt out noone would want to risk goods over PvP. No win scenario here because its better off half baked with the said problems of cooking it to "perfection" which I don't think is possible.

    Yes there will always be griefing.. The magic trick is to reduce it as much as possible :) We are looking for the best compromise.. As to the example you mention about opting out.. That's why we suggest that opting out can't be done instantly, thereby getting the loot and skipping the fight
  • Osteos
    Osteos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    A compromise means that you have to be willing to give up something too. No changes for opt out players isn't giving up a thing. A complete unwillingness to compromise at all.

    You can be a condescending as you want about players not liking npcs being murdered in front of them or bodies lying in the street. Your gaming experience isn't more important then anyone else's.

    The justice system is flawed and incomplete.
    DAGGERFALL COVENANT
    NA PC
    Former Vehemence Member
    Onistka Valerius <> Artemis Renault <> Gonk gra-Ugrash <> Karietta <> Zercon at-Rusa <> Genevieve Renault <> Ktaka <> Brenlyn Renault
  • Whatzituyah
    Whatzituyah
    ✭✭✭✭
    Osteos wrote: »
    You can be a condescending as you want about players not liking npcs being murdered in front of them or bodies lying in the street.

    I was just thinking wouldn't this be better if the NPCs were Randomly Generated with what makes sense and had dialogue made for being a different races but saying the same thing pretty much? Just throwing it out there I don't really care how derpy they may look. Infact if you don't like their look than kill them and maybe they will look better.
    Edited by Whatzituyah on October 4, 2016 1:06AM
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Introduction
    My opinion is that the Iron Wheel guild story line and skill line should come as an extension of the Dark Brotherhood DLC, since it is lacking true endgame content. It is ultimately to ZOS to look at the revenue of each particular DLC, and decide whether they will upgrade some of the past DLC, or sell it as a part of a new DLC.
    I am using names like Outlaw, Enforcer, the Iron Wheel guild, Prison etc. as general terms that most forum users will recognize and understand instantly. That does not mean some other names could not be given that are more appropriate.
    Dubhliam wrote: »
    Enforcer activities
    • There is an extensive Iron Wheel storyline, during which you will encounter many new NPC characters, along with some TG and DB NPCs like Walks Softly, Silver Claw, Kor and Hildegard.
    • Certain repeatable quests send the Enforcer in search of missing persons (NPCs) or wanted criminals (NPCs) that the Enforcer must find with vague descriptions and sketches. Note: some of those NPCs will turn aggressive when interacted with. Finding two or three missing persons before handing in will grant better rewards.
    • There are also different kinds of repeatable quests called "Community Service" quests. Those include anything from escorting Merchants, delivering crafting crates, finding lost pets and other.

    I hope you can see our proposals are not that dissimilar. The only difference is that I propose adding PvP options alongside it.

    So is that a YES, adding the content i describe would cause you outrage maybe to straw break levels if it was not paired with a PVP justice inclusion?

    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
    And not just a maybe, I would definitely quit the game if that were to happen.

    Now, let's turn that around.
    Let's say you get exactly the kind of PvE update you propose.
    Is there any reason why it should not be paired with the PvP concept that is proposed here?

    Remember, it is fully optional for both sides, and consentual.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • MercyKilling
    MercyKilling
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »

    Remember, it is fully optional for both sides, and consentual.

    So what happens when nobody opts in to this proposed sytem, or the numbers are so unfairly balanced, it kills said system?

    No, far better to just work on a non-PvP solution to a botched attempt. I'd even go so far as to say scrap the entire thing and start over, from scratch.

    See, the exact same thing is going on about Open space and solo play in this other game. Those in the one mode of play (the PvP mode) are not finding anyone to pick on except other people wanting combat and in combat oriented builds. The non-combat oriented people are puttering about with their non-combat builds in non-combat places while the PvP crowd literally foams at the mouth wanting to somehow get those people out of solo play AND FORCE THEM INTO GAME PLAY THEY DO NOT WANT.
    Guaranteed that'll happen here. It's not just isolated incidents in another game. When your "consensual PvP" idea comes up against the concept that nobody wants open world PvP going on around them, it completely shatters. Then it won't be long until people are up in arms about forcing those opting out to opt in. Enticing them. Making uneven and imbalanced gameplay for choosing to opt out of combat.

    Long story short, not just no, but h-e-double hockey sticks no.
    Edited by MercyKilling on October 4, 2016 6:59AM
    I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
    1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
    2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
    3) Difficulty slider.
    4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
    Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dubhliam wrote: »

    Remember, it is fully optional for both sides, and consentual.

    So what happens when nobody opts in to this proposed sytem, or the numbers are so unfairly balanced, it kills said system?

    No, far better to just work on a non-PvP solution to a botched attempt. I'd even go so far as to say scrap the entire thing and start over, from scratch.

    quote-Frederick-Smith-fear-of-failure-must-never-be-a-239967.png

    They might have as well ditched Dueling because someone in the dev team said:
    "But what if nobody duels?"
    "Yeah, you're right, let's not risk that!"
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
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