Transairion wrote: »

First, you can use Impenetrable in PvE. In fact, Impenetrable is just as good as Prosperous--if not better--if you want to grind for gold. Replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable is a no-brainer, and the very premise of your argument is null and void.

Furthermore, most people do both PvE and PvP. Very few people do only one and none of the other. And for people who do mostly PvE and very little PvP (I spend over 95% of my time doing endgame PvE), they're not going to have the AP to get Impenetrable through PvP activities--instead, they should be able to get their PvP gear from doing what they're good at, which is PvE. It is very narrow-minded to try to argue against a common sense solution like this (replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable) just for a tiny minority.

Finally, I hate this whole PvE-vs-PvP nonsense. It's all part of the same game. Yes, PvE'ers need to step into Cyrodiil to get their War Horn, Vigor, Caltrops, and Guard. And PvP'ers need to step into endgame PvE for their Undaunted. And that's a good thing. People should be encouraged to do a bit of both.

Prove that Impen is just as good. No, really. This always comes up, but the only "proof" we have is a single player's word who's test involved 20 mins and a supposed 100 GOLD EARNED. 20 minutes of gameplay for 100 gold is a joke, I get 30 gold from a pack of mobs, so the entire "test" is suspect. And even by their own proof, Prosperous WAS BETTER by a single gold earned. It's like nobody actually read the topic and just saw "it's bad, here's some numbers, it's bad!" and accepted it as gospel truth.

So no, the "proof" is made up and only Zenimax knows the truth. Hell, SEND ME a mass of Impen and Prosperous gear and I'll test it myself, I can't craft my own set in it or I would (and I'm not going to fork out the massive CP160 cost for that kind of gear while broke). Or someone actually get the balls to TEST IT THEMSELVES, grinding a delve or bandits (mobs that can drop gold, grinding Skeevers proves nothing) and figure it out. Not 20 mins and 100 gold earned when mobs drop 30 gold a pack, that's only 2 minutes of gold at best. 18 mins spent fishing?

We have no proof cause nobody can be bothered either way.

Impen doesn't have to just be vendor bought, Cryodill mobs could be given a drop % to drop Impen gear (or maybe they ONLY drop Impen gear)... give people a reason to Dolems. But yeah, I'm sure I must be crazy for thinking that gear I can use being taken away and replace with the old Sturdy is a bad thing... it's always amusing, nobody ever wants to dispute the old Sturdy being trash, but when it's brought up everyone turns the other cheek and conveniently forgets about it. Anything I previously got in Impen was basically an empty trait, it's worthless. Nobody is broke they can't afford armor repairs, not even me.

Go read that thread in its entirety.

It's actually worse than that, if you actually bothered to read the rest of the post where I posted the 4-day total over all my characters. Have you ever done endgame PvE? Stuff like vMoL, vSO, vMA? Yea, the mobs in trials drop 1 gold. I get a couple thousand or more each from vendor goods from each vSO run, and if I'm lucky, maybe a couple hundred from actual kills.

How much gold you get depends on what you grind. Go grind senches for hide scraps, and you get zero gold--any gold you get is in the form of vendorables (and the fruits of scrap refinement). Grind humanoid enemies, and you get more gold. So in that sense, Prosperous is even worse than advertised, since not only is it only good for gold grinding, it's only good for a very specific type of gold grinding with specific types of enemies, whereas Impenetrable's benefit in grinding is much more even and non-specific.

More importantly, if you really did want to grind for direct gold drops (nevermind that even when killing humanoids, the majority of your gold comes from vendorables), why the hell are you not using crafted gear? We're talking about endgame gear like stuff from trials, ICP, etc. You want Prosperous? Craft it. Nobody's taking that from you. But nobody in their right mind is going to grind out a set of Scathing Mage or Spell Power Cure so that they can go use that for mob grinding. No, they're going to use sets like that for endgame PvE, and, again, if you've ever stepped into trials or other true endgame PvE content, you'd realize just how ridiculous your statement is.

code65536 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

First, you can use Impenetrable in PvE. In fact, Impenetrable is just as good as Prosperous--if not better--if you want to grind for gold. Replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable is a no-brainer, and the very premise of your argument is null and void.

Furthermore, most people do both PvE and PvP. Very few people do only one and none of the other. And for people who do mostly PvE and very little PvP (I spend over 95% of my time doing endgame PvE), they're not going to have the AP to get Impenetrable through PvP activities--instead, they should be able to get their PvP gear from doing what they're good at, which is PvE. It is very narrow-minded to try to argue against a common sense solution like this (replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable) just for a tiny minority.

Finally, I hate this whole PvE-vs-PvP nonsense. It's all part of the same game. Yes, PvE'ers need to step into Cyrodiil to get their War Horn, Vigor, Caltrops, and Guard. And PvP'ers need to step into endgame PvE for their Undaunted. And that's a good thing. People should be encouraged to do a bit of both.

Prove that Impen is just as good. No, really. This always comes up, but the only "proof" we have is a single player's word who's test involved 20 mins and a supposed 100 GOLD EARNED. 20 minutes of gameplay for 100 gold is a joke, I get 30 gold from a pack of mobs, so the entire "test" is suspect. And even by their own proof, Prosperous WAS BETTER by a single gold earned. It's like nobody actually read the topic and just saw "it's bad, here's some numbers, it's bad!" and accepted it as gospel truth.

So no, the "proof" is made up and only Zenimax knows the truth. Hell, SEND ME a mass of Impen and Prosperous gear and I'll test it myself, I can't craft my own set in it or I would (and I'm not going to fork out the massive CP160 cost for that kind of gear while broke). Or someone actually get the balls to TEST IT THEMSELVES, grinding a delve or bandits (mobs that can drop gold, grinding Skeevers proves nothing) and figure it out. Not 20 mins and 100 gold earned when mobs drop 30 gold a pack, that's only 2 minutes of gold at best. 18 mins spent fishing?

We have no proof cause nobody can be bothered either way.

Impen doesn't have to just be vendor bought, Cryodill mobs could be given a drop % to drop Impen gear (or maybe they ONLY drop Impen gear)... give people a reason to Dolems. But yeah, I'm sure I must be crazy for thinking that gear I can use being taken away and replace with the old Sturdy is a bad thing... it's always amusing, nobody ever wants to dispute the old Sturdy being trash, but when it's brought up everyone turns the other cheek and conveniently forgets about it. Anything I previously got in Impen was basically an empty trait, it's worthless. Nobody is broke they can't afford armor repairs, not even me.

Go read that thread in its entirety.

It's actually worse than that, if you actually bothered to read the rest of the post where I posted the 4-day total over all my characters. Have you ever done endgame PvE? Stuff like vMoL, vSO, vMA? Yea, the mobs in trials drop 1 gold. I get a couple thousand or more each from vendor goods from each vSO run, and if I'm lucky, maybe a couple hundred from actual kills.

How much gold you get depends on what you grind. Go grind senches for hide scraps, and you get zero gold--any gold you get is in the form of vendorables (and the fruits of scrap refinement). Grind humanoid enemies, and you get more gold. So in that sense, Prosperous is even worse than advertised, since not only is it only good for gold grinding, it's only good for a very specific type of gold grinding with specific types of enemies, whereas Impenetrable's benefit in grinding is much more even and non-specific.

More importantly, if you really did want to grind for direct gold drops (nevermind that even when killing humanoids, the majority of your gold comes from vendorables), why the hell are you not using crafted gear? We're talking about endgame gear like stuff from trials, ICP, etc. You want Prosperous? Craft it. Nobody's taking that from you. But nobody in their right mind is going to grind out a set of Scathing Mage or Spell Power Cure so that they can go use that for mob grinding. No, they're going to use sets like that for endgame PvE, and, again, if you've ever stepped into trials or other true endgame PvE content, you'd realize just how ridiculous your statement is.

Seriously, when I see people defending these training and prosperous drops on ENDGAME gear, it truly makes me believe they don't understand the mechanics of how the game work. Most likely the NB "tank" that has no taunt with a bow and resto staff you find in a group queue.
You want prosperous, CRAFT IT. In any style or set bonus you want!! You can not convince the people who actually run endgame content and understand the nuances of the game that a training Kena helm is "good" or "useful".
Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Transairion is just arguing for the sake of it. Leave him. He is more or less alone with that twisted logic anyway.

Honestly for end game gear preposterous (not a typo) and training should not be in the loot tables and never should have been. Before 160 sure I guess but not at max cp level. Additionally, I should not be picking up 140 loot out 160 dungeons it's really not ok. Also something to consider is since gold tempers are so hard to get consider that when we break down gold items and max level gear we get all the mats all 130-150 silk or leather rubedite or ruby ash and all 7 or 8 alloys rosin and druegh wax. The gear is not going to stay 160 forever and this will allow ppl to upgrade less painfully.

Transairion wrote: »

Transairion is just arguing for the sake of it. Leave him. He is more or less alone with that twisted logic anyway.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, ZOS wants opinions and I'm giving them mine. I can use Training/Prosperous and my only Skoria helm is Prosperous, but by your logic I'm not allowed to do that and my only helm should be taken away because it displease you.

Don't pretend that anti-Training/Prosperous is universal, the majority of players actually ingame just deal with it and move on. Sure, would they prefer trait they actually wanted? Of course. But something with a "bad" trait is better than nothing.

I've got maybe ~50 Monster helms/shoulders, and of them only about 5 are actually Divines. Trial gear is different, as I've said. But if I want to use Training/Prosperous CP160 dropped set gear, I should be free to do so as well as anyone else who does.

Sure, you're free to state your opinion. I did not say different.
Same as how it seems as if the forum community, the people who have an opinion regarding this matter, seem to be in favor of removing your beloved prosperous and training trait from CP 160 end game gear (Vet Dungeons are as much end game as Trials, just on a different difficulty). Loads of people here seem to agree that Impen has at least a real and vital use on end game gear, opposed to Training and especially Prosperous.
If you want to play with Training and Prosperous, be my guest. I won't stop you. And no one is taking away your already acquired gear, so don't worry about that. You get to keep your prosperous Skoria Helmet no matter what. I hope it will help you make a lot of gold.

And to use your argument:
But if I want to use Impen on CP160 dropped set gear, I should be free to do so as well as anyone else who does.

Sure, you're free to state your opinion. I did not say different.
Same as how it seems as if the forum community, the people who have an opinion regarding this matter, seem to be in favor of removing your beloved prosperous and training trait from CP 160 end game gear (Vet Dungeons are as much end game as Trials, just on a different difficulty). Loads of people here seem to agree that Impen has at least a real and vital use on end game gear, opposed to Training and especially Prosperous.
If you want to play with Training and Prosperous, be my guest. I won't stop you. And no one is taking away your already acquired gear, so don't worry about that. You get to keep your prosperous Skoria Helmet no matter what. I hope it will help you make a lot of gold.

And to use your argument:
But if I want to use Impen on CP160 dropped set gear, I should be free to do so as well as anyone else who does.

The people who agree Impen is useful do so entirely in the context of PvP (as I've already said, if it's that much of a requirement now it should be baseline) NOT in the case of PvE where it's literally old Sturdy, the trashiest of traits. That's all well and good, it being great for PvP, but it doesn't serve a purpose in PvE and is inferior to Training and Prosperous. Armor takes hours of gameplay to break (or massive dungeon failings), and the highest repair bill breaking almost everything is only 1900 gold. Now if it made it so armor wouldn't break at ALL I might agree, but I'd never ever use Impen (or old Sturdy) for PvE the way it is now and nobody goes full Impen for PvE, they do it for PvP and just take the PvE hit since it's easier to not change sets. Nobody used Old Sturdy for anything either, it was considered the worst trait endgame (because Exploration literally didn't drop in endgame so it couldn't be counted), so please don't try and sell me it's good for PvE. It's not.

By all means, I'm prepared to suffer the mass of useless Impen Monster Helms and item sets. But you're not arguing for that by itself, you want to remove all CP160 Training/Prosperous drops entirely so nobody can ever get them again. And I can't agree with that. Options are a good thing. Removing options because you don't like them is a bad thing.

Remember, I didn't take away the precious Impen drops, ZOS did that and I only agreed with their logic for doing so. The argument for bringing them back literally amounts to "I want to PvP in X", which should be unnecessary is Impen's function is made a baseline factor of PvP to begin with.

I really don't see why there's any problem with that, do PvPers just enjoying ganking non-Impen players that much for easy AP? In other games with "PvP gear" it's the same issue...

Would absolutely love to see more sets come in Impen trait. It would allow for SO much more build diversity in PvP. Please do this Dx

Transairion wrote: »

Can I ask and I ask to all who make this point, But why does it even matter to you that impenetrable is not useful to you in PvE?

Why does it matter that Training and Prosperous is "not useful" to the people that don't want to wear it either? Why does it matter that half the traits aren't going to be used on any given build?

Because loot is determined by RNG, and people don't like getting stuff they can't/won't/refuse to use. Taking away stuff I CAN use to replace with drops I'll NEVER use isn't much of a fair tradeoff, thank you very much. My main can't use 3/4 of the traits, but I'm not here complaining for all of them to get taken away.

Wall of text about how Impen is good because you can sell it to PvPers with upcoming group trading

Yeah, no that's a dangerous precedent to set and something not at all to be supported. Group trading is not being tossed in the game for the sake of SELLING OFF drops other people want, it's a negative side effect of greedy players.

And again, the key point everyone ignores: Impen is only valued in PvP because it lowers the crit damage of other players. If this is so "key", as I'm repeatedly told you're a fool to not go full Impen for PvP and PvE sets without Impen are "ruined", then it shouldn't be part of gear at all and should be baseline effect you get upon entering PvP.

Players aren't pining for Impen gear because it's good, they're pining for Impen gear because without Impen they're apparently cannonfodder. If it's that key in PvP, there why even have it apart of gear? Then it makes no difference.

I really hope ZOS sees the majority here and not scapegoats such comments as yourself as validity for them not implementing it out of laziness or to manage their time elsewhere. Since doing so benefits literally a community in the game that is often neglected for its counter parts. Which is why I felt the need to counter your post and make those who not aware reading this on the overall impact on the players this change would make, 100% for the better.

I'm sorry, but that's just making it so it benefits yourself.

"I don't like this gear, take it away! But I like THIS gear, so put it in instead! Oh, other people like that gear? Well sucks to be them!"

From all the examples given, Impen is getting back in so PvE loot tables and further diluted with useless traits on any given build. But then that's not enough, so I'll be LOSING other traits I can use to gain traits I can't use. Why should I have gear taken away from me to gain gear I can't use? My only Skoria helm is Prosperous, am I just not allowed to have a Skoria helm because you don't like it?

If you can't see the logic of why that's bad, I can't help you. Zenimax had a very good reason to remove Impen from PvE, because in PvE it's bad. If Impen is a requirement for PvP at this point, it should be baseline part of PvP. No child left behind.


Important Clarification: I don't think Prosperous, Training or Impenetrable should drop from Trials at all because they're the very endgame of gear and they should only drop "the best traits" for any given builds (which I guess would be Divines + whatever tanks use now). However, anything other than Trials should be free reign for ANY traits with equal drop rates. The % of Divines drops should be the same % as Prosperous drops.

Training/Prosperous are niche but they still serve a purpose for ANY build and shouldn't be yanked out of the game just because you wanted a different drop. Again, my only Skoria helm is Prosperous (after dozens of runs, my RNG was that bad), I shouldn't now have no Skoria helm at all because other people don't like Prosperous.

Hmmmm I can not even comprehend what I am reading here. Firstly as can see from the majority of those commenting on the thread in comparison to yourself and one other I recall. Everyone else is talking about impenetrable in the grand scheme of things and the bigger picture as I stated. You're all making the point that by doing so we have selfish intention. Yes I would be delighted with the idea of impen on all item sets. Does that make it personal? I guess.

Does that make it selfish? No as said everyone else is weighing up either side and then drawing conclusion for the majority of the community as they know it. You are doing what exactly? Simply QQ'ing you won't get your items handed to you in Divines and therefore creating a PvP vs PvE divide that because it not important in PvE it's not important in the game, I feel you didn't really read my last response to you I made, as I emphasised how they intertwine and how it would affect the community. Your comments about greedy players and BoE are laughable tbh, the majority of the community are against ZoS paywall BoP drops which in my opinion should be the case for majority of sets, leaving BoP only for the more powerful sets, such as how SO has been balanced in this regard.

You don't really give any valid reasons of course it's your opinion but in regarding of compiling a case against the proposed changes I don't think it warrants validation in the bigger picture, if anything feels like doing so for arguments sake with these hipster replies.

Also lastly your point I highlighted in italics of your problem of the change, is the exact problem the vast majority have with lack of impen atm. So you complaining that you lose a trait you do not like? Well GG so did every PvP player from undaunted last couple patches now have to play AP lottery every week. You're balancing your argument on something only 2 others I seen agree with, both lacking proper just reasons and both being countered by others. To honestly believe those wanting impen are the selfish ones in the community, then wow dat hipster lifestyle too stronk yo.

Simply QQ'ing you won't get your items handed to you in Divines and therefore creating a PvP vs PvE divide that because it not important in PvE it's not important in the game, I feel you didn't really read my last response to you I made, as I emphasised how they intertwine and how it would affect the community.

Wow, if that's all you take away from what I've written I do feel sorry for you.

You can think what you like, but I enjoy Training/Prosperous and don't want them taken away, simple as that. Given both can be used in PvP/PvE there's no imaginary divide (I am counting PvP zone NPC's/PvE like Cryodill mobs/Imperial City/Sewers as PvP though, take that as you will), only Impen is massively lopsided because in PvP it's "top tier" and in PvE it's "trash tier". A pure PvEr getting Impen may as well have gotten it without a trait, while a pure PvPer getting it couldn't be happier.

Your comments about greedy players and BoE are laughable tbh

Quite the opposite, posters here have already suggested PvErs who get useless Impen drops to "sell them off to PvPers, so you'll be better off than with Propserous anyway". Doesn't sound like the spirit of the game or ZOS's intentions to me.

You don't really give any valid reasons of course it's your opinion but in regarding of compiling a case against the proposed changes I don't think it warrants validation in the bigger picture, if anything feels like doing so for arguments sake with these hipster replies.

I'm sorry that "I want to use this" isn't a valid enough reason for you, but is valid on the Impen side just because it's not as niche in use. And yes, if Impen IS so key for PvP then it shouldn't exist on armor at all and just be baseline for PvP... the only people who lose out of that feature are the scummy PvPers ganking players without Impen, while wearing full Impen so they have a massive advantage. Like in every PvP game with "PvP gear".

Also lastly your point I highlighted in italics of your problem of the change, is the exact problem the vast majority have with lack of impen atm. So you complaining that you lose a trait you do not like? Well GG so did every PvP player from undaunted last couple patches now have to play AP lottery every week. You're on balancing your argument on something only 2 others I seen agree with, both lacking proper just reasons and both being countered by others. To honestly believe those wanting impen are the selfish ones in the community, then wow dat hipster lifestyle too stronk yo.

People are free to argue for Impen back, no problem with that. But ZOS took them away from PvE with good reason, people disagreeing with that reason is an entirely different discussion. Any argument that Train/Props are bad "cause me no likely" is just as valid as ZOS's reasoning for removing Impen in the first place.

ZOS is free to re-add Impen, but don't expect me to be happy watching them backflip NOR be happy gear I want to use is being taken away due to being too niche. That's not being a hipster, that's wanting to have options.

BigBragg wrote: »

They are just talking about end game looted items, this won't take anything away from crafting.

Thanks. I appreciate the clarification. However, I still wanted my opinion

Draxys wrote: »

except for that one guy that wants to level up skills in trial gear =P

Training isn't about leveling skills anymore. A full purple set is equivalent to the Jubilee Cake everybody drooled over - about 1% of a level per standard mob killed. Even without extra boosts it's entirely relevant. You can't craft two full five-piece sets. So having Training on a good dropped set just means crunching numbers for what I can make myself in the other slots.

Because of glyphs, I'd rather have Training. Give me the experience to hammer against that CP cap penalty. Divines isn't the endgame. There is no endgame. But if I know exactly what I want, I'm going to spend my time hunting the glyph resources instead of running group content. Divines is only as good as one Mundus stone. Glyphs offer choice and diversity across 12 to 14 slots.

The problem with Training isn't Training. It's that there's a severe drop-off in experience in Craglorn and just about any underground combat area. That's why dungeon runners aren't seeing the benefit of it. Above ground? It's an excellent and time-saving trait.

Impenetrable is valuable for PVP builds. And you can't have true RNG if you start removing numbers based on want. That's a slippery slope because soon you'll have people who want only Impen or Divines to drop. Adding Impen needs to happen no matter what.

Prosperous does suck. It should have the same table as Training but for AP instead of XP, plus the extra gold from mob kills so it's useful in the PVE half of PVP. Then it's competitive with Impen.


But I do think Bind on Pickup is the real enemy here. It goes back to one of my favorite books, White Teeth. The *** is not the ***. The pigeon is the ***. Getting traits you don't want isn't the problem. The mechanic that restricts what you can do with them once you receive them is. Let somebody spend a few million gold for a set piece they really want. Is ZOS afraid of botters and cheaters if they remove BOP? Afraid they can't pump out content fast enough? Those are their problems, not ours.

To demonize two traits, one of them that's actually useful in its current state, just lets ZOS get away with not being proactive about the problems they actually have. And isn't the game already enough of a max/min hell post-soft caps?

Give us a way to trade sets from trials and dungeons with each other, not just in our current group but with everybody in the game. As a PVPer, even if you add impen to the PVE loot tables, I still probably wouldn't bother farming gear. I'd just run something that I already had (and most others would, too, greatly reducing the amount of variety in Cyrodiil) or, if the dropped set was by far better than anything I had, I'd just stop playing altogether. This is a game, there's no point in forcing people to do something they don't want to.

No training trait on cp 160 gear, hmmm what happens when cp 160 is no longer end game gear tho?

And don't say that isn't a possibility as if you check the dark brotherhood removal of veteran ranks post:
elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2016/05/10/dark-brotherhood-deep-dive-what-veteran-rank-removal-means-for-your-character

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FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

We also wanted to take this opportunity to answer a few of the more common questions we've seen on the official ESO forums from players who have gotten a chance to try these changes on the PTS:

Q: Can I get Champion Point 101 or Champion Point 400 gear?

A: The gear cap is currently CP 160, but it will be raised in the future. Gear will exist every 10 Champion Points so in the case of CP 101, the gear level will be rounded to the nearest ten; it will drop at either CP 100 or CP 110.

---

As said, a trade in token style system for the trait a player wants may also present a suitable alternative for those wanting specific gear drops, so yes set drops to the popular options but allow others to get the sets they want via trade in, even if the trade in is 2 of the same set items for a choice of trait on a replacement of 1 of the trade in items.

Just my PoV on this situation.