ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

There has been a longstanding request from some of our players to consider adding the Impenetrable Trait to item sets that drop from end-game PVE content. We’ve read arguments for and against making this change, and have discussed options among the team here. We’d like to share with you what we’re currently considering.

• Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, regardless of where they drop
• Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, except those that drop in Trials
• Remove Prosperous and Training as valid Traits from Trial item sets

Thoughts?

Great. Really it is. but. PLEASE. Don't. Do the following:

Where you make it so that once prosperous and training are removed (2 of the 9 possible traits) Impenetrable is now weighed in THREE times (IE so now you have a 1 in 9 chance for divines, 1 in 9 for infused, 3 in 9, or 1/3rd, chance to get impenetrable.

I have a feeling that the 'lesser desired' traits(Across the board, and i mean EVERYONE, hates training and prosperous to drop as end-game gear) are weighted MUCH higher than the rest.

if you remove the two, PLEASE make it 1 in 7 chance for each of the others. NOT 1 in 9 for the 'desired' ones yet 3 in 9 for the 'leftovers' nobody really wants .

As you can tell, I am really, really sick of finding a new helm (or shoulders) with prosperous or training, after more than 50 total found.(yes, so far almost 100% of all engine guardian helms I've gotten were training/prosperous)

The only way I'd ever wear prosperous would be if it granted immunity from ever-again acquiring a piece of prosperous
or training armor.

Definitely happy about no longer having to deconstruct monster helms with training and prosperous. I'm not a 
 fan of impens though, as they are just too powerful of a trait in PVP. Nerf impens and sharpened, change prosperous to something substantial, keep divines as they are, and buff the rest so that trait selection is actually a real dilemma. 
Tanks have some tough choices, but the rest of us don't really have a choice. trait selection doesn't really exist if
one trait is more than twice as effective as all the rest.

Some ideas for possible armor traits:

Courageous- Provides 3/4/5/6/7% resistance to control effects and decreases the duration of CCs by 3/4/5/6/7%

Thrifty- Lowers all Stamina and magicka costs by 1.4% per piece

Now that people can acces 10k armor/spell penetration easily (not even counting CP) impen. gear is more needed than ever.

Also I appreciate that you guys are finally communicating with us about this issue

I'm not sure how I can react to the this topic other than squealing with glee at the mere chance of Prosperous and Training being removed from any loot tables you're willing to.
Same response for adding Impen back in.
Please:
• Add Impen back as a valid trait for all item sets in the game.
• Remove Training and Prosperous from dungeons and trials, at least at CP160 level.

As a side note, please take another look at Prosperous; I was a huge fan of your trait overhaul all except for that one trait. As others have said, not only is it's theoretical purpose FAR outweighed by the functionality of other traits, but it's mathematically, nearly non-functional. Using Impen to 'reduce' your repair costs on gear is more efficient in most cases!
Training has a niche application for low level grinding, but in that case most players use crafted sets for that, usually from friends or guild members.
Both traits have no place in end-game gear.

There has been a longstanding request from some of our players to consider adding the Impenetrable Trait to item sets that drop from end-game PVE content. We’ve read arguments for and against making this change, and have discussed options among the team here. We’d like to share with you what we’re currently considering.
Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, regardless of where they drop
Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, except those that drop in Trials
Remove Prosperous and Training as valid Traits from Trial item sets
Thoughts?

I'm not entirely sure the question you're asking, since it's a minority of players that do Trials to begin with the end result regarding Impenetrable is "we're putting it back onto everything else anyway" under either of those options. As far as Training/Prosperous goes, I don't think removal from Trial sets only will make that many people happy either.


Back again with my "you're the devil for thinking this" opinion, but I still do not want Impenetrable to drop from PvE content. 50% slower armor degradation is useless, even to a player like me, and while Training/Prosperous are more niche they're STILL more useful in PvE (PvE Impen > Prosperous is a myth that hasn't been properly tested; @Zeni YOU have the actual data on this so please share it and end this fear mongering against Propserous). Getting Monster Helms, Trial gear, any kind of loot in Impen again for me is the same as getting it entirely traitless, it serves no purpose for me. At least I can appreciate more exp from mobs, more gold from mobs if no-one else can.

Please, if you're going to add Impenterable back into the game, have it PvP sourced. It's a PvP trait. Nobody was begging for the old Sturdy to drop (they hated it as much as everyone hates Training/Propserous now), yet that is EXACTLY what the PvE Impenetrable is right now. It's worthless, so an Impen drop on an item you won't PvP with is worthless too.


Simple re-adding Impenetrable to every drop will make getting the trait you want even worse of an RNG grind.

No, it's not. It reduces armor degradation. Which is something that doesn't happen in PvP. So half the trait is applicable only in PvP, and half the trait is applicable only in PvE.

Granted, the PvE half is rather lackluster, but it's no worse than Prosperous.

So, yes, Impenetrable should definitely be introduced, if it means replacing Prosperous with it.

Please stop spreading this misinformation; your link of "proof" tries to act factual while theorycrafting with a pathetic 100 gold earned after 20 minutes of fighting mobs. Now I don't know about you, but in a gold zone I get at LEAST 30 gold from ONE pack of mobs, so the OP of that anti-Propserous topic didn't test much anything at all and just theorycrafted... in a way that, in the topic ITSELF says Propserous earns more gold (1 gold in the example).

To DISPROVE that Prosperous is not better than PvE Impen, you have to actually test it... wear full propserous, go fight 1000 bandits in a delve somewhere. Count gold, leave, -repair bill to get result. Wear full Impen, go fight another 1000 bandits, count gold, leave, -repair bill to get result.

This isn't complicated, nobody can just be bothered to test it because it's easier to say "Propserous is terribu".

Transairion wrote: »

There has been a longstanding request from some of our players to consider adding the Impenetrable Trait to item sets that drop from end-game PVE content. We’ve read arguments for and against making this change, and have discussed options among the team here. We’d like to share with you what we’re currently considering.
Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, regardless of where they drop
Add Impenetrable as a valid Trait for all item sets in the game, except those that drop in Trials
Remove Prosperous and Training as valid Traits from Trial item sets
Thoughts?

I'm not entirely sure the question you're asking, since it's a minority of players that do Trials to begin with the end result regarding Impenetrable is "we're putting it back onto everything else anyway" under either of those options. As far as Training/Prosperous goes, I don't think removal from Trial sets only will make that many people happy either.


Back again with my "you're the devil for thinking this" opinion, but I still do not want Impenetrable to drop from PvE content. 50% slower armor degradation is useless, even to a player like me, and while Training/Prosperous are more niche they're STILL more useful in PvE (PvE Impen > Prosperous is a myth that hasn't been properly tested; @Zeni YOU have the actual data on this so please share it and end this fear mongering against Propserous). Getting Monster Helms, Trial gear, any kind of loot in Impen again for me is the same as getting it entirely traitless, it serves no purpose for me. At least I can appreciate more exp from mobs, more gold from mobs if no-one else can.

Please, if you're going to add Impenterable back into the game, have it PvP sourced. It's a PvP trait. Nobody was begging for the old Sturdy to drop (they hated it as much as everyone hates Training/Propserous now), yet that is EXACTLY what the PvE Impenetrable is right now. It's worthless, so an Impen drop on an item you won't PvP with is worthless too.


Simple re-adding Impenetrable to every drop will make getting the trait you want even worse of an RNG grind.

No, it's not. It reduces armor degradation. Which is something that doesn't happen in PvP. So half the trait is applicable only in PvP, and half the trait is applicable only in PvE.

Granted, the PvE half is rather lackluster, but it's no worse than Prosperous.

So, yes, Impenetrable should definitely be introduced, if it means replacing Prosperous with it.

Please stop spreading this misinformation; your link of "proof" tries to act factual while theorycrafting with a pathetic 100 gold earned after 20 minutes of fighting mobs. Now I don't know about you, but in a gold zone I get at LEAST 30 gold from ONE pack of mobs, so the OP of that anti-Propserous topic didn't test much anything at all and just theorycrafted... in a way that, in the topic ITSELF says Propserous earns more gold (1 gold in the example).

To DISPROVE that Prosperous is not better than PvE Impen, you have to actually test it... wear full propserous, go fight 1000 bandits in a delve somewhere. Count gold, leave, -repair bill to get result. Wear full Impen, go fight another 1000 bandits, count gold, leave, -repair bill to get result.

This isn't complicated, nobody can just be bothered to test it because it's easier to say "Propserous is terribu".

Can I ask and I ask to all who make this point, But why does it even matter to you that impenetrable is not useful to you in PvE? Especially when it is useful to the majority of the PvP community? Last I checked this game had PvE and PvP, I don't understand the constant segregation from either side. If you don't enjoy PvP or don't enjoy PvE and therefore do not do it, that is your choice. How about everyone else who plays the game for full and enjoys ALL aspects of the game? I see no reason why having item sets cross over between PvE and PvP is such a problem in this case? I didn't see it being a problem for those who PvE seeking PvP item sets such as Blessing of Potentates or every stamina DPS in 1.6 wanting Ravager, if anything it gave benefits, creating a market to sell the items to either side. A market which would re open for the PvE players benefiting from the PvP players who also won't PvE and therefore would pay X amount for such BoE sets in impenetrable. So in that regard alone Impenetrable is a F*** tonne more profitable gold wise than prosperous no?

Secondly there is no mention in the OP that impenetrable would replace training and prosperous, it is merely an addition, so there is no need even for comparison at this stage of what we know. The only valid complaint I can see is the dilution of RNG for desired traits. But the removal of Training and Prosperous would in fact increase your chances of grabbing that divines etc and as stated if not, well you made some extra gold for your efforts, again more profitable than the decon fodder you'd have received instead. Of course can argue that if training and prosperous were to be removed then impenetrable would add to the dilution. But at risk of segregating half the ESO community restricting their enjoyment for the sake of such selfish intentions about it becoming a grindfest I can not agree with. Compromises have to be made from either party as it was in PvP with the changing in the AvA skillines for PvE players and as it was for PvP players with the AP vendor.

Personally as someone who regularly does both and plays with people who strictly only do one aspect of the game too, I see no real drawbacks if training and prosperous are removed the balance is still there, some gear chase is necessary to make it rewarding and the removal of 2 traits for 1 is a fair trade off to benefit many others and as said including yourself in terms of profitability if the sets remain BoE, so ZOS making the gear BoP will make the change void for many people and the dilution for PvE players would have been in vain too. As a passing comment about nobody doing trials content too, since SO been scaled to CP160 I've have seen alot of activity there from PvP players and PvE players hence why the market is completely saturated with the items sets.

I really hope ZOS sees the majority here and not scapegoats such comments as yourself as validity for them not implementing it out of laziness or to manage their time elsewhere. Since doing so benefits literally a community in the game that is often neglected for its counter parts. Which is why I felt the need to counter your post and make those who not aware reading this on the overall impact on the players this change would make, 100% for the better.

To all those arguing over the value of impen vs prosperous in PVE...

If you're wearing either for endgame PVE, you're doing it wrong and have much to learn about this game.
Both are useless traits in endgame PVE.

Debating over which is more useless is stupid but for the sake of argument and wasting time, lets do a simple basic evaluation :

• Prosperous is useless for CP160 PVE content and also absolutely garbage in PVP.
• Impen is useless for CP160 PVE content but extremely useful for PVP.

Impen - 1
Prosperous - 0

Now if you are complaining that your RNG would be better if ZOS removed 3 traits (impen,prosperous,training) instead of 2 traits (prosperous,training)... then you need to understand that you're being greedy AF and for the sake of your convenience, a large portion of the community will suffer.

Can I ask and I ask to all who make this point, But why does it even matter to you that impenetrable is not useful to you in PvE?

Why does it matter that Training and Prosperous is "not useful" to the people that don't want to wear it either? Why does it matter that half the traits aren't going to be used on any given build?

Because loot is determined by RNG, and people don't like getting stuff they can't/won't/refuse to use. Taking away stuff I CAN use to replace with drops I'll NEVER use isn't much of a fair tradeoff, thank you very much. My main can't use 3/4 of the traits, but I'm not here complaining for all of them to get taken away.

Wall of text about how Impen is good because you can sell it to PvPers with upcoming group trading

Yeah, no that's a dangerous precedent to set and something not at all to be supported. Group trading is not being tossed in the game for the sake of SELLING OFF drops other people want, it's a negative side effect of greedy players.

And again, the key point everyone ignores: Impen is only valued in PvP because it lowers the crit damage of other players. If this is so "key", as I'm repeatedly told you're a fool to not go full Impen for PvP and PvE sets without Impen are "ruined", then it shouldn't be part of gear at all and should be baseline effect you get upon entering PvP.

Players aren't pining for Impen gear because it's good, they're pining for Impen gear because without Impen they're apparently cannonfodder. If it's that key in PvP, there why even have it apart of gear? Then it makes no difference.

I really hope ZOS sees the majority here and not scapegoats such comments as yourself as validity for them not implementing it out of laziness or to manage their time elsewhere. Since doing so benefits literally a community in the game that is often neglected for its counter parts. Which is why I felt the need to counter your post and make those who not aware reading this on the overall impact on the players this change would make, 100% for the better.

I'm sorry, but that's just making it so it benefits yourself.

"I don't like this gear, take it away! But I like THIS gear, so put it in instead! Oh, other people like that gear? Well sucks to be them!"

From all the examples given, Impen is getting back in so PvE loot tables and further diluted with useless traits on any given build. But then that's not enough, so I'll be LOSING other traits I can use to gain traits I can't use. Why should I have gear taken away from me to gain gear I can't use? My only Skoria helm is Prosperous, am I just not allowed to have a Skoria helm because you don't like it?

If you can't see the logic of why that's bad, I can't help you. Zenimax had a very good reason to remove Impen from PvE, because in PvE it's bad. If Impen is a requirement for PvP at this point, it should be baseline part of PvP. No child left behind.


Important Clarification: I don't think Prosperous, Training or Impenetrable should drop from Trials at all because they're the very endgame of gear and they should only drop "the best traits" for any given builds (which I guess would be Divines + whatever tanks use now). However, anything other than Trials should be free reign for ANY traits with equal drop rates. The % of Divines drops should be the same % as Prosperous drops.

Training/Prosperous are niche but they still serve a purpose for ANY build and shouldn't be yanked out of the game just because you wanted a different drop. Again, my only Skoria helm is Prosperous (after dozens of runs, my RNG was that bad), I shouldn't now have no Skoria helm at all because other people don't like Prosperous.

Remove training and prosperous traits from all end-game gear.
Add impenetrable back to all loot pools, but make it not so common. I have 10 impenetrable kena helmets in my bag right now and only 1 divines. It shouldn't be like that.

Yes Remove prosperous and training from dungeon and trial loot, no one needs them, if we want xp we can craft out own xp gear, same with gold. No one will ever need an increased xp spell power cure.


Adding impenetrable to all gear is OK I guess even as a pve player since I can get pvp gear and occasionally PvP

Transairion wrote: »

Can I ask and I ask to all who make this point, But why does it even matter to you that impenetrable is not useful to you in PvE?

Why does it matter that Training and Prosperous is "not useful" to the people that don't want to wear it either? Why does it matter that half the traits aren't going to be used on any given build?

Because loot is determined by RNG, and people don't like getting stuff they can't/won't/refuse to use. Taking away stuff I CAN use to replace with drops I'll NEVER use isn't much of a fair tradeoff, thank you very much. My main can't use 3/4 of the traits, but I'm not here complaining for all of them to get taken away.

Wall of text about how Impen is good because you can sell it to PvPers with upcoming group trading

Yeah, no that's a dangerous precedent to set and something not at all to be supported. Group trading is not being tossed in the game for the sake of SELLING OFF drops other people want, it's a negative side effect of greedy players.

And again, the key point everyone ignores: Impen is only valued in PvP because it lowers the crit damage of other players. If this is so "key", as I'm repeatedly told you're a fool to not go full Impen for PvP and PvE sets without Impen are "ruined", then it shouldn't be part of gear at all and should be baseline effect you get upon entering PvP.

Players aren't pining for Impen gear because it's good, they're pining for Impen gear because without Impen they're apparently cannonfodder. If it's that key in PvP, there why even have it apart of gear? Then it makes no difference.

I really hope ZOS sees the majority here and not scapegoats such comments as yourself as validity for them not implementing it out of laziness or to manage their time elsewhere. Since doing so benefits literally a community in the game that is often neglected for its counter parts. Which is why I felt the need to counter your post and make those who not aware reading this on the overall impact on the players this change would make, 100% for the better.

I'm sorry, but that's just making it so it benefits yourself.

"I don't like this gear, take it away! But I like THIS gear, so put it in instead! Oh, other people like that gear? Well sucks to be them!"

From all the examples given, Impen is getting back in so PvE loot tables and further diluted with useless traits on any given build. But then that's not enough, so I'll be LOSING other traits I can use to gain traits I can't use. Why should I have gear taken away from me to gain gear I can't use? My only Skoria helm is Prosperous, am I just not allowed to have a Skoria helm because you don't like it?

If you can't see the logic of why that's bad, I can't help you. Zenimax had a very good reason to remove Impen from PvE, because in PvE it's bad. If Impen is a requirement for PvP at this point, it should be baseline part of PvP. No child left behind.

First, you can use Impenetrable in PvE. In fact, Impenetrable is just as good as Prosperous--if not better--if you want to grind for gold. Replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable is a no-brainer, and the very premise of your argument is null and void.

Furthermore, most people do both PvE and PvP. Very few people do only one and none of the other. And for people who do mostly PvE and very little PvP (I spend over 95% of my time doing endgame PvE), they're not going to have the AP to get Impenetrable through PvP activities--instead, they should be able to get their PvP gear from doing what they're good at, which is PvE. It is very narrow-minded to try to argue against a common sense solution like this (replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable) just for a tiny minority.

Finally, I hate this whole PvE-vs-PvP nonsense. It's all part of the same game. Yes, PvE'ers need to step into Cyrodiil to get their War Horn, Vigor, Caltrops, and Guard. And PvP'ers need to step into endgame PvE for their Undaunted. And that's a good thing. People should be encouraged to do a bit of both.

The only way Prosperous would ever be useful is if it increased the AP gained by the wearer by a set amount like 2-3% or so.

Transairion wrote: »

First, you can use Impenetrable in PvE. In fact, Impenetrable is just as good as Prosperous--if not better--if you want to grind for gold. Replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable is a no-brainer, and the very premise of your argument is null and void.

Furthermore, most people do both PvE and PvP. Very few people do only one and none of the other. And for people who do mostly PvE and very little PvP (I spend over 95% of my time doing endgame PvE), they're not going to have the AP to get Impenetrable through PvP activities--instead, they should be able to get their PvP gear from doing what they're good at, which is PvE. It is very narrow-minded to try to argue against a common sense solution like this (replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable) just for a tiny minority.

Finally, I hate this whole PvE-vs-PvP nonsense. It's all part of the same game. Yes, PvE'ers need to step into Cyrodiil to get their War Horn, Vigor, Caltrops, and Guard. And PvP'ers need to step into endgame PvE for their Undaunted. And that's a good thing. People should be encouraged to do a bit of both.

Prove that Impen is just as good. No, really. This always comes up, but the only "proof" we have is a single player's word who's test involved 20 mins and a supposed 100 GOLD EARNED. 20 minutes of gameplay for 100 gold is a joke, I get 30 gold from a pack of mobs, so the entire "test" is suspect. And even by their own proof, Prosperous WAS BETTER by a single gold earned. It's like nobody actually read the topic and just saw "it's bad, here's some numbers, it's bad!" and accepted it as gospel truth.

So no, the "proof" is made up and only Zenimax knows the truth. Hell, SEND ME a mass of Impen and Prosperous gear and I'll test it myself, I can't craft my own set in it or I would (and I'm not going to fork out the massive CP160 cost for that kind of gear while broke). Or someone actually get the balls to TEST IT THEMSELVES, grinding a delve or bandits (mobs that can drop gold, grinding Skeevers proves nothing) and figure it out. Not 20 mins and 100 gold earned when mobs drop 30 gold a pack, that's only 2 minutes of gold at best. 18 mins spent fishing?

We have no proof cause nobody can be bothered either way.

Impen doesn't have to just be vendor bought, Cryodill mobs could be given a drop % to drop Impen gear (or maybe they ONLY drop Impen gear)... give people a reason to Dolems. But yeah, I'm sure I must be crazy for thinking that gear I can use being taken away and replace with the old Sturdy is a bad thing... it's always amusing, nobody ever wants to dispute the old Sturdy being trash, but when it's brought up everyone turns the other cheek and conveniently forgets about it. Anything I previously got in Impen was basically an empty trait, it's worthless. Nobody is broke they can't afford armor repairs, not even me.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

The lack of impenetrable in the PvE loot table does only one thing, and that is pigeonhole PvP players into crafted gear or "PvP Specific Gear." Allowing impenetrable to drop from all sources would only promote a more diverse environment for people to branch out into different builds that are not viable in Cyrodiil right now due to only the fact that impenetrable is not available on those specific sets. There are some really amazing builds I could use in Cyrodiil, but the lack of impenetrable on that gear puts you at such a disadvantage the sets in question are no longer viable at all.

As it stands currently a mathematical breakdown of the percentage chance to get your desired trait on an armor piece.

Currently: 11.11% chance based on a nine trait loot table.

Proposed Impenetrable Addition: 10% chance based on a ten trait loot table.

This proposed chance ZoS is mentioning in this thread only reduces your chance to get your desired trait (assuming you're strictly a PvE players and have little use for impenetrable) by 1.11%. It will only slightly dilute the chance to get the perfect trait on gear, but will however, open up countless possibilities for PvP players.

If you do implement impenetrable to the PvE loot table in addition to the ability to trade in group Bind on Pickup items you can allow the player-base to really interact with one another to acquire their ideal piece of gear in a way never possible before. This system will allow PvE players to trade unwanted impenetrable items to PvP players (assuming they are grouped) and vice versa allowing PvP players to ability to trade back unwanted divines or infused pieces.

Say for example a PvP player and a PvE player are doing a Sanctum Ophidia run. They down The Serpent and the PvE player gets an impenetrable Jack of the Vicious Ophidian and the PvP player gets a divines robe of the Infallible Aether. The Vicious Ophidian would be great on the PvP player's stamina dragonknight build and the Infallible Aether could be used on the PvE player's healer alt, they then discuss the terms of the trade and a deal could be made.

Thus with this new system it will potentially bring more PvP players into the realm of PvE as the gear that is not viable now for PvP perhaps could be. The addition of one more trait to the loot table does not significantly change your chance to get your particular desired trait. What both these changes does do is helps allow every single player the chance to get the gear they want in the trait they want.