Vicious Death is NOT an Auto Execute

Jules · May 2016

Because some people still think it procs before death-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWtVjwAFLXI

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

Thank you ! Well done .

vortexman11 · May 2016

I don't believe Vicious Death is bugged, but I don't think its as simple as people think.

I'm sure most of us are aware of the strange mechanic (especially if you've played a healer) where if your incoming heals are greater than the incoming damage you're taking, then you could potentially go below what looks to be 0 health only to shoot back up. I think Vicious Death basically negates that due to its instant damage as soon as you reach 0, while in other situations you may not of died. Of course Im not sure if this is true, its just my own theory.

manny254 · May 2016

vortexman11 wrote: »

I don't believe Vicious Death is bugged, but I don't think its as simple as people think.

I'm sure most of us are aware of the strange mechanic (especially if you've played a healer) where if your incoming heals are greater than the incoming damage you're taking, then you could potentially go below what looks to be 0 health only to shoot back up. I think Vicious Death basically negates that due to its instant damage as soon as you reach 0, while in other situations you may not of died. Of course Im not sure if this is true, its just my own theory.

I think there is even more to it than that. Today I had a "interesting" death from it.

Essentially I was able to line of sight away from the person who proc'ed, it and my death reacp was 4WB's (not from the VD player) and VD. I might think it was a dot, but it happened while I was in cloak and no one was actually on top of me me.

God_flakes · May 2016

Forgive me but I thought this was already cleared up? Didn't Gina already come out and say it's a UI/death recap bug?

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

I suppose no matter how much evidence is presented doubters are gonna doubt . Sorry Jules . The test was lengthy , the proper add ons were used and a compilation of attacks right in the damage zone was conducted . I don't know how much more could have been done .

Anything else maybe just lag . This test was done correctly .

lolo_01b16_ESO · May 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

I suppose no matter how much evidence is presented doubters are gonna doubt . Sorry Jules . The test was lengthy , the proper add ons were used and a compilation of attacks right in the damage zone was conducted . I don't know how much more could have been done .

Anything else maybe just lag . This test was done correctly .

The problem I have with this video is that Jules in my opinion is not a trustworthy person in regards of discussing game balance. I remember her execute vid where she used different characters with no stats shown to proove how op Jesus beam was outside ecexute range. When I tested it on a char with similar weapon / spell damage and magicka / stamina my dps with la+executioner weaving was noticable higher than with radiant opression. Then there was her list about op nbs because they have more major buffs (e.g. 30% damage reduction from veil was listed, 30% damage reduction from nova was not listed)
So all her video did was making me suspicious that there is something bugged about vd and she wants to hide it.

vortexman11 · May 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

Forgive me but I thought this was already cleared up? Didn't Gina already come out and say it's a UI/death recap bug?

Yes she did, and its getting fixed for DB I think.

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

I suppose no matter how much evidence is presented doubters are gonna doubt . Sorry Jules . The test was lengthy , the proper add ons were used and a compilation of attacks right in the damage zone was conducted . I don't know how much more could have been done .

Anything else maybe just lag . This test was done correctly .

I completely agree with @Jules where the set is working as intended in the sense where its procing when you are "dead".
I just think what the game considers "dead" is a bit misleading. Is it when you're at zero health? Or is it when you're at zero health with too much incoming damage to recover, from what I've seen the game considers you dead when you're at zero health while taking greater damage than you're being healed for, while the set considers you dead the moment you're at zero health, without taking incoming heals into account.

Either way, Vicious Death is working as intended, game mechanics are just messed up.

rfennell_ESO · May 2016

Meanwhile, I've blocked vicious death when no one is remotely near me.

Under normal conditions, it's working properly.

Add some lag... or some induced lag (because there are a bunch of cheaters out there in this game) and different things than "working properly" occur.

I've seen it proc for no reason when I'm at high health, literally watched the animation for it. I've also survived it proccing for no reason when no one was near me a whole bunch of times.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

I suppose no matter how much evidence is presented doubters are gonna doubt . Sorry Jules . The test was lengthy , the proper add ons were used and a compilation of attacks right in the damage zone was conducted . I don't know how much more could have been done .

Anything else maybe just lag . This test was done correctly .

The problem I have with this video is that Jules in my opinion is not a trustworthy person in regards of discussing game balance. I remember her execute vid where she used different characters with no stats shown to proove how op Jesus beam was outside ecexute range. When I tested it on a char with similar weapon / spell damage and magicka / stamina my dps with la+executioner weaving was noticable higher than with radiant opression. Then there was her list about op nbs because they have more major buffs (e.g. 30% damage reduction from veil was listed, 30% damage reduction from nova was not listed)
So all her video did was making me suspicious that there is something bugged about vd and she wants to hide it.

I've obviously missed out on some history here and some drama . I hope you'll excuse my ignorance to what ever past events have taken place and also not caring to be involved . The toon is obviously being attacked by a character wearing VD in the video . I don't see a purpose to doctoring a video that just confirms what Gina Bruno already posted .

Jules · May 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

I suppose no matter how much evidence is presented doubters are gonna doubt . Sorry Jules . The test was lengthy , the proper add ons were used and a compilation of attacks right in the damage zone was conducted . I don't know how much more could have been done .

Anything else maybe just lag . This test was done correctly .

The problem I have with this video is that Jules in my opinion is not a trustworthy person in regards of discussing game balance. I remember her execute vid where she used different characters with no stats shown to proove how op Jesus beam was outside ecexute range. When I tested it on a char with similar weapon / spell damage and magicka / stamina my dps with la+executioner weaving was noticable higher than with radiant opression. Then there was her list about op nbs because they have more major buffs (e.g. 30% damage reduction from veil was listed, 30% damage reduction from nova was not listed)
So all her video did was making me suspicious that there is something bugged about vd and she wants to hide it.

Lol.

Mako1132 · May 2016

vortexman11 wrote: »

I don't believe Vicious Death is bugged, but I don't think its as simple as people think.

I'm sure most of us are aware of the strange mechanic (especially if you've played a healer) where if your incoming heals are greater than the incoming damage you're taking, then you could potentially go below what looks to be 0 health only to shoot back up. I think Vicious Death basically negates that due to its instant damage as soon as you reach 0, while in other situations you may not of died. Of course Im not sure if this is true, its just my own theory.

The other day I tanked pact while at 0 HP because of that weird healing thing for a ridiculous amount of time. Maybe I didn't get hit by anyone with VD, but I doubt that. I think the game is just weird at times, and this set gives people something to point their fingers at because it's prevalent across so many death recaps regardless of what class/spec kills you.

Hektik_V · May 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

I suppose no matter how much evidence is presented doubters are gonna doubt . Sorry Jules . The test was lengthy , the proper add ons were used and a compilation of attacks right in the damage zone was conducted . I don't know how much more could have been done .

Anything else maybe just lag . This test was done correctly .

The problem I have with this video is that Jules in my opinion is not a trustworthy person in regards of discussing game balance. I remember her execute vid where she used different characters with no stats shown to proove how op Jesus beam was outside ecexute range. When I tested it on a char with similar weapon / spell damage and magicka / stamina my dps with la+executioner weaving was noticable higher than with radiant opression. Then there was her list about op nbs because they have more major buffs (e.g. 30% damage reduction from veil was listed, 30% damage reduction from nova was not listed)
So all her video did was making me suspicious that there is something bugged about vd and she wants to hide it.

I take testing game mechanics very methodically eliminating as many variables as possible to get accurate results. I can assure you I wouldn't be partaking in any questionable testing.

vortexman11 wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Forgive me but I thought this was already cleared up? Didn't Gina already come out and say it's a UI/death recap bug?

Yes she did, and its getting fixed for DB I think.

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

I suppose no matter how much evidence is presented doubters are gonna doubt . Sorry Jules . The test was lengthy , the proper add ons were used and a compilation of attacks right in the damage zone was conducted . I don't know how much more could have been done .

Anything else maybe just lag . This test was done correctly .

I completely agree with @Jules where the set is working as intended in the sense where its procing when you are "dead".
I just think what the game considers "dead" is a bit misleading. Is it when you're at zero health? Or is it when you're at zero health with too much incoming damage to recover, from what I've seen the game considers you dead when you're at zero health while taking greater damage than you're being healed for, while the set considers you dead the moment you're at zero health, without taking incoming heals into account.

Either way, Vicious Death is working as intended, game mechanics are just messed up.

The Vicious Death proc happens the millisecond that there is enough incoming damage to otherwise kill you.

KenaPKK · May 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

I suppose no matter how much evidence is presented doubters are gonna doubt . Sorry Jules . The test was lengthy , the proper add ons were used and a compilation of attacks right in the damage zone was conducted . I don't know how much more could have been done .

Anything else maybe just lag . This test was done correctly .

The problem I have with this video is that Jules in my opinion is not a trustworthy person in regards of discussing game balance. I remember her execute vid where she used different characters with no stats shown to proove how op Jesus beam was outside ecexute range. When I tested it on a char with similar weapon / spell damage and magicka / stamina my dps with la+executioner weaving was noticable higher than with radiant opression. Then there was her list about op nbs because they have more major buffs (e.g. 30% damage reduction from veil was listed, 30% damage reduction from nova was not listed)
So all her video did was making me suspicious that there is something bugged about vd and she wants to hide it.

Your weaves would have thrown off that test.

Turelus · May 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

Forgive me but I thought this was already cleared up? Didn't Gina already come out and say it's a UI/death recap bug?

Yes, but people still refuse to believe it because they died, and they can't die unless someone is cheating using a broken set against them.

Sharee · May 2016

Hektik_V wrote: »

The Vicious Death proc happens the millisecond that there is enough incoming damage to otherwise kill you.

And i think this also explains why it is being shown on the death recap. Here's my theory:

It basically acts as a proc attached to a normal hit, as long as the normal hit is big enough to remove all the target's remaining health.

Best if i compare it to camouflaged hunter proc(the way it works on live). The damage from CH happens at exact same time as the damaging blow that delivers it, as long as the damaging hit is considered to be coming from stealth. If the sneak attack will kill you by itself(even without the camo proc), the camo proc will still go off, and still be shown on the death recap.

VD proc acts the same, except the condition that needs to be met (for the proc to happen) is not "from stealth", but "the hit that is delivering the proc would remove all the remaining health of target (on it's own)". At that point, an AOE explosion centered on the target happens. This AOE explosion actually can damage the exploding target itself - however it does not matter for killing purposes, as the blow delivering the proc had enough power to kill him anyway(or the proc wouldn't go off in the firstplace).

Only - this mechanic makes VD appear on death recap (since it is, technically, damaging the dying target, at exact same time as the killing blow). It also makes the explosion happen, visually, while the target still appears to have lots of life left - if he has 50% HP left, and gets hit by a huge hit that will remove 50% HP in one go(say, a treb boulder), the victim will see VD explosion on himself while his HP bar still shows 50% (shortly before death). This is what is confusing people to think VD is proccing early and killing them.

Sunburnt_Penguin · May 2016

Lol at how people are still doubting and coming up with excuses for when it occurs.

Sotha_Sil · May 2016

@Jules

1:20 : you are at 1318 health and you take one light attack of 754 damage -> you should not have died...but you still die somehow (vicious death procs ?).

Sounds bugged to me or am I missing something ?
* is it UI health desync of your add on ? - but it seems to be working fine in your second attempt.
* is it enchantment proccing on you (I am not sure but I think it does not always appear on death recap?).
* is it a status effect ? (burned?) but again nothing on death recap

It needs some explanation of what is going on here imo. Your second attempt proves your point but your first, I am not convinced...

Septimus_Magna · May 2016

Great stuff Jules, hopefully the VD exploiter QQ will be somewhat reduced.

FatKidHatchets · May 2016

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

@Jules

1:20 : you are at 1318 health and you take one light attack of 754 damage -> you should not have died...but you still die somehow (vicious death procs ?).

Sounds bugged to me or am I missing something ?
* is it UI health desync of your add on ? - but it seems to be working fine in your second attempt.
* is it enchantment proccing on you (I am not sure but I think it does not always appear on death recap?).
* is it a status effect ? (burned?)

It needs some explanation of what is going on here imo. Your second attempt proves your point but your first, I am not convinced...

Look at her health at the bottom. Her health was desync.

Great Video Jules. Folks will still cry that its broke but great video.

Sotha_Sil · May 2016

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

@Jules

1:20 : you are at 1318 health and you take one light attack of 754 damage -> you should not have died...but you still die somehow (vicious death procs ?).

Sounds bugged to me or am I missing something ?
* is it UI health desync of your add on ? - but it seems to be working fine in your second attempt.
* is it enchantment proccing on you (I am not sure but I think it does not always appear on death recap?).
* is it a status effect ? (burned?)

It needs some explanation of what is going on here imo. Your second attempt proves your point but your first, I am not convinced...

Look at her health at the bottom. Her health was desync.

Great Video Jules. Folks will still cry that its broke but great video.

Her health does not appear to be desync until you see that when she's dead she still has 1238 HP....that might be the cause why many people think it's bugged.

That's why this video should have been made using basic game UI. Because right now it just proves that FTC is not reliable (which we already knew).

Taonnor · May 2016

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

@Jules

1:20 : you are at 1318 health and you take one light attack of 754 damage -> you should not have died...but you still die somehow (vicious death procs ?).

Sounds bugged to me or am I missing something ?
* is it UI health desync of your add on ? - but it seems to be working fine in your second attempt.
* is it enchantment proccing on you (I am not sure but I think it does not always appear on death recap?).
* is it a status effect ? (burned?)

It needs some explanation of what is going on here imo. Your second attempt proves your point but your first, I am not convinced...

Look at her health at the bottom. Her health was desync.

Great Video Jules. Folks will still cry that its broke but great video.

Her health does not appear to be desync until you see that when she's dead she still has 1238 HP....that might be the cause why many people think it's bugged.

That's why this video should have been made using basic game UI. Because right now it just proves that FTC is not reliable (which we already knew).

It is like i often said to my mates. The server handles the "health" update differently as the information of the own "dead" and the following VD proc. Best example are the health desync. The server sends all information about your character in different packages and not as one "update package".

So the client updates the health at other time as the death information, because both informations seems to be separated. If the lag is high you got a delay between both (0 health & death). Zenimax should optimize their netcode to avoid these strange effects, instead of faking their UI.

RinaldoGandolphi · May 2016

VD is a set that shouldn't even exist in the game in the first place, and its a set i refuse to ever wear. You couldn't pay me enough in game gold to wear such a set that does nothing but promote skilless game play.

VD, just like Proxy Det is used and empowers the very zergs it was meant to counter. VD is really the primary reason i no longer give a hoot about attacking or defending any keeps in the game any longer.

VD was the first shovel in the grave digging ESO is doing for itself. 1st they introduce Vicious Death that says "Hey if your buddy or just some random pug is next to you and happens to die, you should die to because of reasons"

Then they are introducing these insane stupid OP poisons next update that just further empowers "teh zerg" every Bombard spammer in the game will be running poisoned weapons spamming an AOE snare that roots you and has a chance to poison you causing all your stuff to cost 60% more that can be refreshed, all while standing in the safety of his 24 man raid and a 50% damage reduction thanks to AOE caps...yup...good luck fighting outnumbered. Why even bother playing the game? Just hand them an "I win button" at this point.

Any set that makes my life or death reliant on someone else that is 100% out of my control(Vicious Death) doesn't belong in this game period.

Of course look around...the PVP pop now is lucky to half of what it was before Thieves Guild, and it will be even worse once these stupid poisons go live.

Vicious Death is just another in the long line of ZOS changes, the Server can't handle these zergs, makes it miserable for everyone to play in, but hey lets just make them stronger, lets make it impossible to small group pvp, zerg or go home.

I swear ZOS has a picture on their wall that says:

ZERG OR GTFO OUT THE GAME

RinaldoGandolphi · May 2016

PS: These upcoming DB changes have killed any kind of small or solo play unless your a Nightblade ganker. Since i don't want to zerg, i guess im left with no choice but to roll a gank nightblade.

God_flakes · May 2016

I agree, Rin. :'(

Many times as I read these forums, patch notes, etc, I feel like Zos WANTS us to continue peeling off in dribs and drabs. I get the feeling they don't read these forums, either. They simply do not care. And I once again feel like a battered woman who clings to her abuser. I want so badly to love this game again and *feel* loved again....but it's stone cold. They don't care about their own player base and prove it with their actions. And if that wasn't sad enough their actions have also had the effect of making pvp even more toxic and lowbrow than it was a year ago.

holosoul · May 2016

@RinaldoGandolphi

For small scale PVP/competitive play, there are so many superior and frankly quite wonderful games that you can choose from. These make up the most popular games in the world, even throughout history before the digital era; with many of the classics still reigning today (Chess, cards, ...) [Note: Chess is the most popular game in the world, 1 in 10 people worldwide play it]
If you want small scale PVP balanced around competitive small group play, you could look no further than the MOBA genre to find a game with 20 million players. You could also examine the FPS genre, another incredibly popular genre with games featuring millions or even tens of millions of players. The RTS genre also has some creative and excellent features itself.

When I entered Cyrodiil for the very first time and discovered gigantic macro warfare with great performance and not a hint of lag in 100 person battles, that was my time. I wasn't the strongest or the best player, and yet I could effectively play a siege role and feel that I still had a place. If I wanted small scale, I would play something else. ESO did one thing right for me, and that's why I've given ZOS what little precious free time I have.

I stopped playing for a long time, before IC was released even. I only came back recently, during this thieves guild expansion. Naturally, I was soon to re-enter Cyrodiil. What is this performance? Are those dropped frames? What is this latency?

That never existed, in case you forgot. To me, that's the game ruiner, not these zerg breakers or even balance I may or may not like, or other small trivialities. It's the loss of that former wonderful glory, that raw huge scale PVP that I haven't sensed a taste of since EVE. EVE and spaceships was never my thing, but my god did EVE do war.

Say what you will about large scale combat; but to many of us, or at least to me, that is one of the supreme virtues of ESO.

RinaldoGandolphi · May 2016

I know J :'(

Its really a shame. The biggest issue is they never give anything a chance to settle. Ever since they went B2P they literally re-write the entire game and change everything just for the sake of making change. No real thought or reason is really given for these changes, they just do it to drum up more hype for their next DLC they want you to buy. This is purely driven by marketing.

This game needs small incremental changes, and new content added with DLC...this doesn't mean you re-write the game skills every 3 months. At this point it looks like they are just throwing stuff against the wall to see what will stick, you cna never be successful when you don't give success a chance to take root. You can't plant a field of corn and expect to harvest it in a week, but this is exactly what ZOS is doing with these DLC, and in doing so they are literally weeding the field and throwing out the crops with the weeds.

Mauz · May 2016

I'm just asking myself why they dont simply fix it. Shouldn't be that hard.

Turelus · May 2016

Mauz wrote: »

I'm just asking myself why they dont simply fix it. Shouldn't be that hard.

Fix what?

The UI bug is fixed in DB so we just need to wait for that now.

holosoul wrote: »

@RinaldoGandolphi

For small scale PVP/competitive play, there are so many superior and frankly quite wonderful games that you can choose from. These make up the most popular games in the world, even throughout history before the digital era; with many of the classics still reigning today (Chess, cards, ...) [Note: Chess is the most popular game in the world, 1 in 10 people worldwide play it]
If you want small scale PVP balanced around competitive small group play, you could look no further than the MOBA genre to find a game with 20 million players. You could also examine the FPS genre, another incredibly popular genre with games featuring millions or even tens of millions of players. The RTS genre also has some creative and excellent features itself.

When I entered Cyrodiil for the very first time and discovered gigantic macro warfare with great performance and not a hint of lag in 100 person battles, that was my time. I wasn't the strongest or the best player, and yet I could effectively play a siege role and feel that I still had a place. If I wanted small scale, I would play something else. ESO did one thing right for me, and that's why I've given ZOS what little precious free time I have.

I stopped playing for a long time, before IC was released even. I only came back recently, during this thieves guild expansion. Naturally, I was soon to re-enter Cyrodiil. What is this performance? Are those dropped frames? What is this latency?

That never existed, in case you forgot. To me, that's the game ruiner, not these zerg breakers or even balance I may or may not like, or other small trivialities. It's the loss of that former wonderful glory, that raw huge scale PVP that I haven't sensed a taste of since EVE. EVE and spaceships was never my thing, but my god did EVE do war.

Say what you will about large scale combat; but to many of us, or at least to me, that is one of the supreme virtues of ESO.

Pretty much this. I joined ESO because it promised the enjoyment of large scale battle and warfare. I have done all kinds of PvP from solo, small gang to leading 40 man zergs.Coming from EVE Online I understand what each of those styles means in an open and unbalanced PvP zone, sadly most players want to 1vX without any fear of the X ever being too many.

I understand being blobbed/zerged or whatever you want to call it sucks, but yeesh at least here you can respawn and teleport accross half the map to get back into the action.

RinaldoGandolphi · May 2016

@holosoul

I don't have a problem with zergs per se. Infact version 1.0-1.5 had zergs in this game, The Difference was BOTH styles of game play were viable...there was fighting literally everywhere and both zerg large scale, and the type of fighting i like were both supported in the game.

Slowly but surely though, ZOS in every update started to nerf mobility and survivability into the ground while empowering zergs.

1st they nerfed Ground Oil
Next they nerfed Streak
then they nerfed Bolt Escape
Nerfed Bolt Escape again
Added 50% cost
Halved your Magic Regen for 4 Secs after
Made the 50% cost increase Stack
Gutted Negate
Gutted Dynamic Ultimate Generation
Gutted Blocking by killing your stam regen while blocking and increasing block cost.
Nerfed Major Expedition Bonus
Nerfed Mist Form 2-3 times
Nerfed damage sheild value in Cyrodiil
in Db nerfed Sheild Duration
Nerfed Healing
Put no Caps on how high you cna stack damage
Put caps on how much armor and Spell Resist you have
Unblanced Armor and Spell Pen Renders Armor useless
Nerfed Nightblade Cloak

The above is just a very small list, the point is they have made it nearly impossible to survive or retreat when faced with overwhelming odds. This is supposed to be an AvAvA game....but because of a bunch of whiners they have nerfed anything you can use to to retreat into the ground and in doing so butchered small scale combat.

Back in 1.6 i had 40 AD chase just me all the way from Roebeck to Nikel....40 people chasing 1 guy....yet my Bolt Escape should be nerfed? Where is the logic in that...since when is 40 vs 1 PVP?

Look at this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMIZ--gVjtE

You have nearly 2 whole raids chasing 1 or 2 people...that isn't PVP....back in the early days it would be possible to escape from that, not now....why is escape or retreat so frowned upon by this player base? its really ridiculous

the updates after 1.6 ZOS doesn't realize they actually killed what made ESO unique and fun among its kind. the updates after 1.6 were like a Giant Hoover vacuum cleaner sucking the fun right out of the game.

InvitationNotFound · May 2016

Thanks for the video. It is exactly what I've tested with some "test dummies". I couldn't reproduce any earlier procs as some people claim. Unfortunately, the video doesn't prove the set isn't bugged (i think it isn't, most of the times at least, but haven't found any real evidence that it is bugged). In the video it isn't, right. but that doesn't mean there aren't any bugs at all (e.g. when it is laggy, when more ppl hit, whatever weird circumstances there are).

God_flakes wrote: »

Forgive me but I thought this was already cleared up? Didn't Gina already come out and say it's a UI/death recap bug?

Since when do we believe in statements made by ZOS?

I can remember a molag kena set bug where it proced while animation canceling light attacks (spell weaving). ZOS statement was that they can't reproduce it, at least at first. It took a bit until they fixed it and i think it was necessary to provide a video to demonstrate it (not sure about the video as it is a while ago).

So, an easy to reproduce bug, which they couldn't reproduce. So their statement at first was: everything works as intended.

So what does that mean? Besides that they aren't playing their own game, they are not having the slightest idea about the game mechanic and of course they have no idea what they are doing / saying? Oh wait... that's exactly the point.

You see? Things like that are most likely the reason why people are still discussing such "bugs".