SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Only casuals defend this game.

And only the "hardcore" people shout loudest. What's your point?

Phinix1 wrote: »

I am glad I didn't go with the twitch response and just condemn this dude's video without watching it simply because he's a PVP player. I agree 100% with what he has to say.

The thing that worries me most is the business model. Leaning on the community to do QA on the PTS then pushing out broken patches that weren't even on there for them to test.

Putting the focus on pushing out token content, broken or not, to sell boxes and crowns rather than balancing what is there and making the experience of that worth sticking around for.

• Why not scale old trials up to new content level so any level can enjoy them all?
• Why not eliminate AOE caps and anti-bot code in PVP zones?
• Why overt censorship of any constructive criticism as "negative"?

One of the things that irks me most in modern society is the cowardly notion that anything "negative" must be "the problem." Constructive criticism is the only way problems get solved. By demonizing people trying to help you because you are too proud or worried about short term dollars to care to invest the time and effort to communicate or change, you are sending the very message that you allege they are attacking you for.

Any time someone plays the "blame the negative nancy" card you can be sure they are covering a corrupt profit motive that they know they should be ashamed of. Pay attention over there while I do this right under your nose. Oldest trick in the political book.

Nothing cowardly about it. There's no point to engaging with a chorus of people who have nothing more constructive to say than, "you suck!"

So what happens when one of them has a valid point? They get ignored. Because they're standing next to twenty other people who don't, and are busy chanting, "you suck," over, and over, and over again, and have nothing of value to contribute.

At that point, it's really not worth checking each and every one of them, to make sure that, "no, really this guy has a point." Because, far more often than not, they don't. And it is much easier to filter them all out with one fell swoop.

It's not politics. It's just, well, why would you sign up for abuse on the off chance that someone might have something of value to say.

Phinix1 wrote: »

Right up there with "divide and conquer" which I have seen so much in the "PVE vs PVP" player division which is almost encouraged as a distraction from ZOS's inability to balance classes and archetypes.

Case in point.

I mean, here you've made a legitimate point: There are balance issues between the classes. And, you've wrapped it in a cynical and abusive tone. Which, I mean, as a content creator, I'd look at that and say, "nope, not even going to bother," and move on.

You had a legitimate point, but now it's lost, because you set it up as an insult.

Phinix1 wrote: »

When did "good business" become about waging war on your own community? Surely anyone can see this only leads to diminishing returns, as people continue to trickle out as soon as the next best thing comes along while the supply of new players continues to fall as well. It isn't an infinitely renewable resource.

When a minority of highly vocal dissenters in the customer base decided to claim there was a war, and then insisted that because their ideas weren't getting priority in the community, it must be a conspiracy, and not simply a function of tone, or that their views did not reflect the majority of players.

This is a political tactic, by the way. To claim to be the oppressed victim in order to validate your position. That's, "your" as an indefinite pronoun, and not you @Phinix1 in particular, by the way.

Phinix1 wrote: »

This reminds me of the AI in the movie Transcendence. Unable to grasp the concept of right and wrong, or the importance of loyalty. Just blindly plodding forward doing whatever it has fixated on, oblivious to or incapable of considering alternatives proposed by anything outside it's own artificial ego.

If there is an inflated ego at play here, it's Feng's. He's up there saying that, because he's been streaming for less than six months, Zenimax Online must listen to his opinions. And if they don't, it's because he's being shut out for being critical of him.

Now, it's probably true that he's shut out for what he's said about them. But it's because the tone he's presented tells them he has nothing of value to contribute before he even makes his case. It's unfortunate, but not egotism on ZOS's part.

Phinix1 wrote: »

I don't like to sound overly negative because I love the game, and Elder Scrolls. I have been a supporter and addon writer for years. But the business model and priorities really are pretty disappointing, not even mentioning the $1 million dollars to someone who never did a stream, never wrote an addon, never even hit veteran rank in the game.

As it is I haven't even played for months let alone subscribed. I have lost all faith in ZOS being able to balance PVP and they strike me as too full of themselves to care to listen to people basically telling them how to fix things.

It's actually funny you should say that, because the AOE cap that Feng throws a borderline tantrum over is actually something that was implemented because ZOS did listen to people telling them how to fix things.

Who here remembers the unkillable vampire emperors from launch?

Yeah, that AoE cap was put in the game at player demand. Because they did listen to people telling them how to fix things. And now someone else has come along and said, "no, no, no, you listened to the wrong guys, by the way this is your fault!" Yeah... I can't imagine why ZOS might not want to listen to him.

Phinix1 wrote: »

I *** around with new content so long as I have crowns left over to buy it but if they run my numbers as a founder subscriber, content creator, addon author, and "hardcore" player, they'll see those diminishing returns I was talking about.

Here's hoping things change, but honestly it would probably require the employment roster changing for that to happen. In the meantime I'll just enjoy it for free for what it's worth, until I don't.

That's all anyone can do really. I mean, with an MMO? It's not like a single player release. It's never going to be a static game. It may not even exist in the same form a month or two months from now. You can take what's there, you can offer your suggestions. But, when it devolves into shouting, "no, you're wrong!" it becomes non-constructive. It's not cowardice, it's just how dialog works. You said your bit. Someone else decided if you were worth listening to or not. And here we are.

Gidorick wrote: »

FENG RUSH makes one fatal mistake in his assessment of ESO... not all of us are "Long Term MMO Players".. many MANY of us are "Long Term TES Players"

But overall... He's pretty spot on with his criticisms.

Then go back to skyrim.

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

FENG RUSH makes one fatal mistake in his assessment of ESO... not all of us are "Long Term MMO Players".. many MANY of us are "Long Term TES Players"

But overall... He's pretty spot on with his criticisms.

Then go back to skyrim.

This. As a loooong time TES franchise fan I hate this game with a passion. It's a HORRIBLE Elder Scrolls game, and even worse MMO. True TES players would agree with me, this game shouldn't even be considered part of the TES franchise.

I've been playing ES games since Arena. To me, Skyrim is by far the worst ES game, not this.

Isn't it great how people can have differing opinions?

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

This. As a loooong time TES franchise fan I hate this game with a passion. It's a HORRIBLE Elder Scrolls game, and even worse MMO. True TES players would agree with me, this game shouldn't even be considered part of the TES franchise.

[snip] Still expecting that ZOS will cater to you because of your non-stop complaining? If you haven't noticed, they tend to tune out those who are constantly full of criticism and I'm sure they feel the same way most of us do, that these type of players just need to go away already.

If you're such a 'single-player gamer' than why did you venture into MMOs? I mean, 'True TES players would agree with me' please... if you haven't noticed, this game is FULL of TES players who absolutely love the game. Oh but wait, because they don't agree with you they're not "true" TES players.
[edited for baiting]

ADarklore wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but this game IS NOT dominated by PvP players- although I know most of you want to convince yourself differently. For your information, this game is dominated by PvE solo-centric players and that is basically how the game was designed. Also, if Matt Firor even comes out and states that this game is more of a RPG than traditional MMO, then that should answer your question about how PvP fits into ESO.

That's because every demographic but the solo PvE questers have left, because the game has nothing for them.
And the game was designed around the PvP in Cyrodiil. That's why we are split into 3 factions in the first place. Heck, Matt Firor only took the job on the condition that he could make this a 3-faction PvP game. And it was always advertised as having these amazing large PvP battles - at least until the performance dropped and they swept all of that under the rug to promote a dozen colors of cat mounts instead.

And I don't PvP either, just pointing some stuff out.

EsoRecon wrote: »

CASUALS go home to skyrim pls! this game isn't for you.

HARDCORE PVP PLAYERS go and find a game that better suits your PVP needs!

We can all do that and it gets us nowhere.

I don't agree with everything FR said, but that's fine. I doubt he cares. I prefer inverting AoE caps in Cyrodiil to removing them, for example; but, honestly, it doesn't matter because I don't see either one being done. Still I do understand where he is coming from, and so do many other long time players. I recently read an interview with Matt Firor about how awesome the game is doing, and it probably is from a sales standpoint. For now. Yet I do agree with FR that many long term players are getting fed up or getting bored. Nor is this surprising. Check out this comment made in April 2015:

tinythinker wrote: »

Each player that gets bored/fed up while playing the same content over and over while dealing with seemingly immortal bugs is a loss of revenue from unsubbing, from loss of cash shop purchases, and from negative word of mouth to other potential players.

Maybe some players expect perfection right now, according to their own narrow notion of what perfection in ESO would look like. But I suspect many just want to have a reason to keep playing, either because some serious problem has finally been fixed, some new area has been released, etc. For those who've been VR for several months and who have gone through the existing content multiple times, the wait for a new dungeons or zone since the last drop is getting old. Some players who started at release are just now getting to VR14, and some just to VR1. But even they will eventually hit the "What else is there to do?" wall. Many players have already been camped at that wall for a while now.

How quickly a player reaches that wall depends on how much time you have to play and what parts of the game you enjoy the most. I enjoy everything in the game and even though I have a VR14 DK and a VR14 Templar I still need to finish getting my Sorc to VR14. I also have a Nightblade sitting at VR1. And another Sorc waiting patiently at what, level 5 or 7? I actually don't think of doing the Alliance zones *yet again* to be a total chore because I love the settings, stories, art, etc. And my crafters are taking forever to get good at anything, so that's still something to work on. I further break all of that up with PvP, Craglorn delves, group dungeons, etc. So I can extend my detours and slow my approach to that wall. Yet many have already gotten tired of waiting next to it and have moved on. Others are seriously considering joining them, especially since they see no reason to stay subbed and can wait things out playing other games.

Automatically bashing or defending ZOS/ESO isn't something I have any interest in. Constructive criticism should be listened to seriously, and not just to cherry pick the examples that fit with pre-existing plans. I have no idea how the people running ZOS actually respond to criticism in private, but in public it really does come off as "We understand some people don't like some things, we're going to fix the bugs, give us some time, now stop complaining."

A lot of what FR talked about comes down to the current business model, which is a group-optional solo content theme park. As such, there needs to be new "rides" coming out on a regular basis and new prizes in the cash shop to keep making money. People can say there should be more this, that, or the other, whether it's internal testing and development, focus on PvP, class balancing, etc, but getting out the new costumes, mount skins, and solo-oriented PvE format DLC is priority #1, and everything else is a distant second or third at best.

And that isn't cynicism. It's just smart business with the type of B2P model ZOS has embraced with ESO. Maybe Firor and Lambert truly believe that is the best model for their product, the best way to make enough money to keep ESO going and to put out something at least close to the original vision of the game. Maybe they hope the model will even out and allow them to catch up on bug fixes, a Cyrodiil refit, etc. I can't stand here and claim "No Matt, there is a better way; here, read my business plan."

You can read my older comment as either support for that business plan (giving people new zones/quests every quarter), or you can read it as support for creating stable/balanced content with good replay value. It's actually both. But that wall I mentioned is still an issue. I don't think people actually get upset that new content is being delivered every quarter though. It's the nature of the content and more importantly the quality of the content. And also, to a large extent, it's perpetual frustration over transparency and clarity of vision. You can go back to the PC launch and see complaints about that.

The Road Ahead, which was supposed to help with such concerns, quickly became the Road in Review and then just vanished. The exciting previews from QuakeCon 2014 were a one-time deal, and ever since the same footage keeps getting shown over and over (but soon it will all be old from either released or canceled content). What is the new vision? Other than some vague names or hints? ("We know.") Is there a vision for the next 9-18 months? Why is it top secret? Fear of player disappointment if those plans don't 100% materialize?

It's cool that some thing like Spellcrafting and Justice System Part 2 got canceled or put on indefinite hiatus. Changes happen. I would have liked JS Part 2, but I get it. Plans for something like an MMORPG are *always* fluid. But having lack of transparency, inadequate sharing of big picture design goals and plans (with the caveat that the ideas are tentative), releasing updates with large numbers of awful bugs as par for the course and having bugs hang around for years, and no public concern about or regular/informative status reports on plans to fix/enhance/expand content and features to keep more long term players (housing, trials, PvP, etc)? That is a recipe for a lack of confidence and fertile ground for rumors, negative assumptions, jaded video rants, and bitter forum posts. Those things breed toxicity and make it harder for ZOS and the players to understand each other.

Unlike FR, I don't care if ZOS communicates directly to me personally or gives a damn about my dozens of silly suggestions for the game. I'm just one player among hundreds of thousands. If I end up leaving some day over frustration or boredom, no one at ZOS will even notice. That's sensible and expected. But I fail to see why there is a never-ending issue with adequate communication with *us*, the community at large. Despite making it personal and being impolite, FR made some valid points, as have many people in other streams, on the forums, on Reddit, etc, about their concerns. Whatever you made of the video the OP posted, it isn't unreasonable to expect better from a company putting out a AAA-level MMORPG. It doesn't make you anti-ZOS or an ESO basher. It's a game that hosts a community and whose devs get paid for their work. Without the devs, the players have no ESO, yet without the players, neither do the devs. Upfront and clearly communicated give and take between the two sides shouldn't be some radical notion.

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

FENG RUSH makes one fatal mistake in his assessment of ESO... not all of us are "Long Term MMO Players".. many MANY of us are "Long Term TES Players"

But overall... He's pretty spot on with his criticisms.

Then go back to skyrim.

This. As a loooong time TES franchise fan I hate this game with a passion. It's a HORRIBLE Elder Scrolls game, and even worse MMO. True TES players would agree with me, this game shouldn't even be considered part of the TES franchise.

I've been playing ES games since Arena. To me, Skyrim is by far the worst ES game, not this.

Isn't it great how people can have differing opinions?

I literally can't stand people who thinks this game is good (pve) I just don't, and if you're one of them don't talk to me because your opinion is irrelevant to me.

You seem a pleasant sort of person.

As you go through life, you will meet people who's opinions don't match your own. Deal with that little fact of life.

Nah, I ignore real life casuals too

So, would you define a casual how? How exactly is a casual measured? I for instance work a lot, have an SO to tend to, planning going back to education, and can't play for 12 hours a day every day. If having a real life makes me a casual, then I'm very proud to be a casual

I was making a joke... Ive already told you if you enjoy a single quest this game has you're a casual.

How about if I enjoy single quests and PVP and trials?

Faulgor wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but this game IS NOT dominated by PvP players- although I know most of you want to convince yourself differently. For your information, this game is dominated by PvE solo-centric players and that is basically how the game was designed. Also, if Matt Firor even comes out and states that this game is more of a RPG than traditional MMO, then that should answer your question about how PvP fits into ESO.

That's because every demographic but the solo PvE questers have left, because the game has nothing for them.
And the game was designed around the PvP in Cyrodiil. That's why we are split into 3 factions in the first place. Heck, Matt Firor only took the job on the condition that he could make this a 3-faction PvP game. And it was always advertised as having these amazing large PvP battles - at least until the performance dropped and they swept all of that under the rug to promote a dozen colors of cat mounts instead.

And I don't PvP either, just pointing some stuff out.

Right??? I mean, look at ESO's logo for crying out loud! Their main image for the entire identity of the ENTIRE FU**ING GAME revolves around 3 entities in a constant battle. But, instead of awesome DLC that emphasizes the constant war effort going on, we get DLC that makes us go and steal lint from the pockets of NPC's...like [snip] lol.

I'm also not saying every DLC needs to be PvP related...but at least have SOME kind of relevance to the thousands of people being slaughtered 24/7 in Cyrodiil...
[edited for profanity bypass]

Lysette wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I think Fengrush has no idea about how casuals play and for how long they stay in a game. He said like 3 months and then they are leaving the game - why would they possibly do that?- They have seen like nothing from this game in 3 months, because they do neither rush through the content nor would they spend a lot of time playing - if they get to play 20 hours per month that is already a lot and if they get up to 40 they hit a boundary, where their spouses will start to seriously get mad at them.

For casuals the game content will not run out anytime soon - they simply are not gamers who would consume a game like it would be melting ice cream. They do not burn through the content like being on speed and they do not run around like squirrels from quest to quest - they try to enjoy their time in Tamriel, without stress or the insane idea, that endgame would be what the game would be about - it is not - that what hardcore gamers see as a necessary evil - the PvE content - that is their game. And that Pvp content is not much more than a necessary evil, because they will most likely never get to it anyway.

This game can perfectly live on for many years to come, paid solely by casual players - they might not play a lot, they will as well not be a burden on the servers, but they are willing to keep up a subscription for years to come - because that is what they want - enjoyable entertainment to get back to, whenever they have a couple of hours. They do not seek a challenge, but entertainment, something to get away from reality for a bit - so they stay subscribed, because this is the cheapest seen long term. And that is exactky what ZOS wants as well - reliable income for years to come - so it is a win-win situation - just not for hardcore players.

so basically in a nut shell: hardcore players,pvp fanatics,and streamers picked the wrong game to invest in. not arguing just interpreting.

Of course they did - like Mr. Firor said lately, this is not the typical MMO but more of an expansive expensive online Elder Scrolls RPG. And that is what it is going to be, you expect the wrong thing, if you think it will ever be something else.

just changed it sligthly for honesty...

JD2013 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

FENG RUSH makes one fatal mistake in his assessment of ESO... not all of us are "Long Term MMO Players".. many MANY of us are "Long Term TES Players"

But overall... He's pretty spot on with his criticisms.

Then go back to skyrim.

This. As a loooong time TES franchise fan I hate this game with a passion. It's a HORRIBLE Elder Scrolls game, and even worse MMO. True TES players would agree with me, this game shouldn't even be considered part of the TES franchise.

I've been playing ES games since Arena. To me, Skyrim is by far the worst ES game, not this.

Isn't it great how people can have differing opinions?

I literally can't stand people who thinks this game is good (pve) I just don't, and if you're one of them don't talk to me because your opinion is irrelevant to me.

You seem a pleasant sort of person.

As you go through life, you will meet people who's opinions don't match your own. Deal with that little fact of life.

Nah, I ignore real life casuals too

So, would you define a casual how? How exactly is a casual measured? I for instance work a lot, have an SO to tend to, planning going back to education, and can't play for 12 hours a day every day. If having a real life makes me a casual, then I'm very proud to be a casual

I was making a joke... Ive already told you if you enjoy a single quest this game has you're a casual.

How about if I enjoy single quests and PVP and trials?

Still a casual.

You throw that word around like it carries any weight to an argument. It doesn't. It's just strawman, especially as the biggest portion of the player base is here for Elder Scrolls stories. I can however see when I've hit a brick wall with someone who believes throwing names around is a valid argument.

Enjoy your "hardcore" PVP experience in a game where it doesn't exist!

I'm pretty sure these "stories" you are speaking of are more comparable to those crossword puzzles on the back of cereal boxes...bc honestly they suck and take the mental capacity of a three year old to get through.