This...

Lysette

ADarklore wrote: »

dennischizophrenia wrote: »

ZOS keeps pushing their loyal players further and further away - that's a fact and Feng, well he's right. And after everything we dealt with a rant seems more than acceptable. :P

I wish the game would push more of these guys FURTHER out of the game! The PvP-centric people are the most toxic I've seen in gaming, and the more that leave the better IMO. Hate to break it to you, but this game IS NOT dominated by PvP players- although I know most of you want to convince yourself differently. For your information, this game is dominated by PvE solo-centric players and that is basically how the game was designed. Also, if Matt Firor even comes out and states that this game is more of a RPG than traditional MMO, then that should answer your question about how PvP fits into ESO.

While ZOS does have its fair share of problems, I'm still absolutely loving the game and I've been playing constantly for almost a year now. No, I don't PvP, I am one of the numerous solo-centric PvE players that you normally don't notice because I am too busy doing my own thing and enjoying the game. For those who think that ESO is 'losing players'- they're only losing the kind of players that you associate with... but the overall health of the game is just fine. Example... yesterday afternoon- a MONDAY afternoon- I started a new character and was annoyed because of the sheer number of players in the Wailing Prison, took me forever to reach level six because of how many players kept killing everything so quickly. Doing the Khenarthi's Roost and Auridon quests... same thing... players everywhere. So how can a game that is supposedly 'dying' be so constantly filled on a weekday afternoon with new players?!?

indeed that is my experience as well - ESO is crowded and it has a large base of new players. Sometimes I have to relog to get into a less crowed phase even. But I am like ADarklore, I am Pve-solo-centric, who occasionally is doing something together with others. I talk to people a lot though, I like to socialize rather then to actually team up with them. But this is basically because I like slow paced gaming - and this does not go well with the squirrel mentality of most in the game, rushing from quest to quest as if their tail would be on fire - that is not how I play, role players do not play this way.

Callous2208

After reading through this thread, I am certain now that eso is doomed. A streamer I've never heard of and a handfull of forum experts that hang off his jock said so. Their opinions matter to me the most since they "allegedly" no longer play the game.

Lysette

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Only casuals defend this game.

That's our form of PvP

JD2013

Mettaricana wrote: »

Maybe better luck if they make a eso2 in 10 years with more to offer

I don't think there will be an Elder Scrolls Online 2 any more than there'll be a World of Warcraft 2.

Zyle

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The problem with the "casuals" argument is that it implies that "hardcore" is good and "casual" is bad.

With raiding, I can get the argument.

In pvp... the hardcore are the problem though. They work hard to reverse the perception, doesn't mean it isn't so though.

People celebrate Fengrush and his ranting... but last I checked he spends most of his time trying to gank pve players in IC... running at orc sprint with a train of mobs running around the zone and spamming wrecking blow on people fighting pve content. Not saying he doesn't do anything else, but that's his primary "vocation" in this game, a ganker abusing mechanics to harass and annoy people.

He will show up to keep battles to "farm AP" and ofttimes shows up with a red zerg who leave him alone. I've seen him enter the breach with a red zerg... He's not playing the realm war, he's just an AP farmer running solo most of the time trying to get people to follow him on twitch. It's doubtful he makes much, as you don't have to actually subscribe at 4.99 to watch his videos... which by Twitch is the only way he gets paid.

Lastly, on the casual vs hardcore argument. You do need to keep in mind that casual = normal person with a job and family. Hardcore is often the opposite of that.

Past all that... when is the last time you saw Fengrush make a positive contribution to anything? Do you see him "help" people on the forums? Do you see him testing out build and posting videos? Do you actually see anything that even resembles theorycrafting from him? I answer more questions and try and be helpful than Fengrush... and I'm mostly a troll, even worse I'm an anonymous troll... even so, if you take a look you will see there is a distinct difference in behavior.

P.S. the hardcore are ALWAYS bailing for the newest game.

That was a very long way of saying you don't like Fengrush.

WalkingLegacy

Callous2208 wrote: »

After reading through this thread, I am certain now that eso is doomed. A streamer I've never heard of and a handfull of forum experts that hang off his jock said so. Their opinions matter to me the most since they "allegedly" no longer play the game.

While his rant video is spot on, it truly is....I never really liked his streams or 'we are ESO live'. If ESO is doomed it is because the devs leadership are screwing the game over. They have no idea where to take the game or how to fix anything.

+1 for his rant video.

Moglijuana

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Woo! I'm glad this thread is open again. I don't really care for the arguing, I'd rather see discussions to help make this game WE ALL WANT IT TO BE. The best MMO out there!

What would help the community the most to appeal to their desires? I feel like an actual community ambassador would help ZOS tremendously. Atm they seem way too transparent for an MMO developer.

I appreciate the sentiment.

Personally, I don't compare this to other "MMOs". If other MMOs are better at MMOing, that is fine with me. I have no idea what other MMOs do apart from what I hear second hand.

I like that this is in Tamriel. I enjoy the gameplay. I enjoy the narrative. I enjoy interacting with other people, grouping in dungeons, talking nonsense in Teamspeak in Cyrodiil. I enjoy developing my characters and crossing achievements off. I enjoy trying the game with different classes and with different attribute focuses. I like having persistence in my character in a gaming environment I can't control.

How does this compare to other MMOs? I don't know and I don't care. I don't say this to be contrary. I say this just to point out that a lot of devoted ESO fans are not comparing this game to other MMOs. My concern is whether I enjoy the game. I enjoy it. I might play a lot less the month before a DLC drop as I run out of fresh content and lose interest in repetition, but I am very satisfied with the game and I'm not sure I want to play any game 365 days a year.

Regarding being the best, no game will be the best at everything. Developers pick where they want to excel and they can be the best at that niche.

I mean...there really isn't another MMO to compare ESO to anyways. I have enjoyed every single part of the game. Some parts more than others. ESO is great as an RPG that has multiplayer added in. I enjoy doing things by myself at times, and I also enjoy being able to group of with friends and do things with them. I'm still a fairly new player since I started with console release so I haven't really run "out of things to do" but I've given up on certain achievements that do not appeal to me (hello master angler!).

The thing is, if you split ESO into separate categories, it is always beat out. PvE? not the best. PvP? close but not the best. End game? not the best. Character Development?not the best. It's great game right now because it has ALL of these things put together. But when they keep focusing on only ONE of those focus areas at a time, the others will fall short and be beat out. As a AAA title game they really need to start focusing on their power as an ALL IN ONE game because they seem to be aiming at a "questing" game that lets you run around with multiple people. That too me is very sub par in 2016. There are WAYYYYYY better games that have much more engaging story lines and memorable characters. Will I play those games? Of course! But I will always come back to ESO because I enjoy doing more than questing on my own.

Better engagement with ALL parts of their community is needed. Singling out certain players (Trading Guilds, PvE Guilds, ) keeps others who enjoy THEIR favorite parts of the game out of the loop. To me, that is unfair and is a main point @FENGRUSH brings up. It's an extremely valid point.

rfennell_ESO

Zyle wrote: »

That was a very long way of saying you don't like Fengrush.

Doesn't make what I said untrue. I freely admit to not liking him at all, I think he's a phony trying to leech money from the game, probably not very successfully.

The key point is that 90%+ of the time I see him he's in the sewers trying to gank people fighting pve content.

The rest of the time he's trying to gank stragglers in Cyrondil at keeps or hiding in a tower trying to gank noobs.

Not all that sure how that means squat in pvp in context of realm warfare.

Lysette

Faulgor wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but this game IS NOT dominated by PvP players- although I know most of you want to convince yourself differently. For your information, this game is dominated by PvE solo-centric players and that is basically how the game was designed. Also, if Matt Firor even comes out and states that this game is more of a RPG than traditional MMO, then that should answer your question about how PvP fits into ESO.

That's because every demographic but the solo PvE questers have left, because the game has nothing for them.
And the game was designed around the PvP in Cyrodiil. That's why we are split into 3 factions in the first place. Heck, Matt Firor only took the job on the condition that he could make this a 3-faction PvP game. And it was always advertised as having these amazing large PvP battles - at least until the performance dropped and they swept all of that under the rug to promote a dozen colors of cat mounts instead.

And I don't PvP either, just pointing some stuff out.

I don't know why you guys do not understand adverts - they are made to catch those potential customers, which will not come to the game on their own - like TES fans do, they do not need a lot of ads to go to ESO, they come by themselves - so clearly the ads had to be targeted on those who had no clue about TES games - and they advertised something what was not part of TES before as in "we have this as well, and it's for you" - that is all what adverts do - they tease those who are not customers yet to come and buy it. If you trust in ad, that's your fault then - just look at a triple-cheeseburger ad - there are 3 slices of cheese in the picture and it is like 3 times taller than the real burger in your box - do you really expect to get 3 slices and a much taller box - no you don't, ads do not give a real impression, they are meant to tease and seduce - you cannot trust them.

Menelaos

So here we have the new ESO elder statesman accusing ZOS of not doing things the way he wants them to be? And holding grudges because some random streamers either don't play ESO anymore or are being paid by ZOS to promote the game he essentially hates? And all covered in narcissm, self righteousness and bad language?

Yeah, but it's not a jealousy thing, sure.

RazielSR

Now thia Fengrush...not that I dont agree with some of the things he says but...please people...can you read posts from me or others talking in those same topics or replying etc etc...more or less half and a year or more ago?

In short: to mix MMO with TES universe is an ENORMOUS MISTAKE AS ME AND OTHER SAID LONG BEFORE THIS FENGRUSH MAN APPEARED.Thats why NOW even Matt is saying this is an online rpg,not your typical mmo. Step by step ZOS is changing that and understanding that they made a mistake by USING TES NAME in an mmo world.

As many people is saying in this topic,or other topics,TES is about the journey,the lore,the atmosphere...not your typical pshyco virtual killer game just to feed potential fools brains.

Pvp is the sickness of this game. They would just delete it all but I understand it is not possible. Damage was done.

Im here until TESVI anyway. But I have to say that with these kind of dlcs like Orsinium or TG...ZOS is going the right way and Im happy because of that.

Lysette

Tankqull wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I think Fengrush has no idea about how casuals play and for how long they stay in a game. He said like 3 months and then they are leaving the game - why would they possibly do that?- They have seen like nothing from this game in 3 months, because they do neither rush through the content nor would they spend a lot of time playing - if they get to play 20 hours per month that is already a lot and if they get up to 40 they hit a boundary, where their spouses will start to seriously get mad at them.

For casuals the game content will not run out anytime soon - they simply are not gamers who would consume a game like it would be melting ice cream. They do not burn through the content like being on speed and they do not run around like squirrels from quest to quest - they try to enjoy their time in Tamriel, without stress or the insane idea, that endgame would be what the game would be about - it is not - that what hardcore gamers see as a necessary evil - the PvE content - that is their game. And that Pvp content is not much more than a necessary evil, because they will most likely never get to it anyway.

This game can perfectly live on for many years to come, paid solely by casual players - they might not play a lot, they will as well not be a burden on the servers, but they are willing to keep up a subscription for years to come - because that is what they want - enjoyable entertainment to get back to, whenever they have a couple of hours. They do not seek a challenge, but entertainment, something to get away from reality for a bit - so they stay subscribed, because this is the cheapest seen long term. And that is exactky what ZOS wants as well - reliable income for years to come - so it is a win-win situation - just not for hardcore players.

so basically in a nut shell: hardcore players,pvp fanatics,and streamers picked the wrong game to invest in. not arguing just interpreting.

Of course they did - like Mr. Firor said lately, this is not the typical MMO but more of an expansive expensive online Elder Scrolls RPG. And that is what it is going to be, you expect the wrong thing, if you think it will ever be something else.

just changed it sligthly for honesty...

Both - but I would prefer if you do not edit my post in this way - and expensive is relative - I have bought the game for 22€ on sale and spend about 15 times of that in the crown store and I subscribed for 6 months - is that a lot? - Really not, a good bottle of wine in a first class restaurant costs me like 5 times more and it does not last that long. It is not expensive at all, but actually a quite worthwhile form of entertainment.

Talyena

I think people like Fengrush are part of the problem with this game. I totally disagree with him when it comes to balancing this game for 1v1 PvP when this is an RvR game. He wanted healing nerfed when I think we need more defense and less burst damage and crowd control in RvR. And he is so whiny.

That said, he made a lot of good points. The devs don't have good communication. They don't seem to have any idea on the identity of each class and what that class should do well and what tools they should be using to achieve that goal. They fix worthless skills by making them more worthless. They allow you to switch sides on a whim. And most importantly, they have no idea how to fix the ping and performance in Cyrodiil. If balance issues were the biggest problem then the game would be in a good place because players will never be satisfied with balance.

Mashille

Wait, what the [snip] just happened, log in and have 162 notifications. Wow.
[edited for profanity bypass]

Mojmir

Lol he makes videos on here making fun of the devs and expects them to listen to him,get a job in the real world and see how that works out.I'm all for calling them out on [snip],this video is too late and they've already dismissed it. Next game u go to try a different approach.
[edited for profanity bypass]

Katahdin

keybaud wrote: »

Wait, what the [snip] just happened, log in and have 162 notifications. Wow.

It automatically notifies you if people respond to your thread. You can turn it off in options.
[edited to remove quote]

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

I like how people throw around the term "casual" like its an insult. Pretty sure you are supposed to PLAY games casually and not make it your life's work. For many of us casuals we have lots of real life obligations. We might not play as much as these supposed hardcore people but our money spends the same. By definition casuals are the majority of people paying for and playing this game.

I wear it as a term of pride.

Mashille

@Katahdin

I know. I just didn't really expect 162...

Mady

Menelaos wrote: »

So here we have the new ESO elder statesman accusing ZOS of not doing things the way he wants them to be? And holding grudges because some random streamers either don't play ESO anymore or are being paid by ZOS to promote the game he essentially hates? And all covered in narcissm, self righteousness and bad language?

Yeah, but it's not a jealousy thing, sure.

Maybe it's his way to say his opinion. And people can agree or not. And people DO agree (and of course disagree), even they don't know him. He could've made a thread using a different name, saying the same stuff and most players would still either agree or disagree. It doesn't matter if he's a streamer or/and using kinda harsh words. In the end he's saying some true stuff, that needs to be discussed.

Katahdin

keybaud wrote: »

@Katahdin

I know. I just didn't really expect 162...

Hot topic apparently.

rotaugen454

I'm not going to sweat it if some of the elites that have all day to play video games leave because it isn't what they want, I'll just play the game and have fun. I send in suggestions and bug reports, but don't ever feel the need to rant about a video game.

EsoRecon

Mojmir wrote: »

Lol he makes videos on here making fun of the devs and expects them to listen to him,get a job in the real world and see how that works out.I'm all for calling them out on [snip],this video is too late and they've already dismissed it. Next game u go to try a different approach.

He has tried other approaches with no luck.
[edited to remove quote]

Moglijuana

None of these recent comments are moving this discussion forward...just bashing the opinions of a loyal player...

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I'm not going to sweat it if some of the elites that have all day to play video games leave because it isn't what they want, I'll just play the game and have fun. I send in suggestions and bug reports, but don't ever feel the need to rant about a video game.

@FENGRUSH works 9-5 bro... so this elite vision you have for good players is probably wrong...

Menelaos

Mady wrote: »

(...) It doesn't matter if he's a streamer or/and using kinda harsh words. In the end he's saying some true stuff, that needs to be discussed.

1. Yes, it does matter. Harsh language makes you look like a *** and weakens your arguments; of which he has quite a few valid ones, I do not doubt. However, if you throw around words like [snip] in each and every phrase you completely undermine what you essentially want to say, however valid that may be.

2. No, he's saying stuff he believes is right or justified. Doesn't make it the truth, however. But of course, established streamers have a lot more subjective credibility than unheard-of folks writing forum posts and that DOES make a difference in a gaming community these days.

The amount of sarcassm and bitterness this dude launches at ZOS and also - by insinuation - at people that may just not share his opinion is amazing. His rant is quite well scripted and has a deal of well placed rhetorics in it, sure. But at the end of the day it's just a vocal 28 minute "I am leaving" video and should be treated just as such.
[edited for profanity bypass]

starlizard70ub17_ESO

keybaud wrote: »

@Katahdin

I know. I just didn't really expect 162...

Congrats, you win the internet today (or at least the ESO portion of it.)

Acrolas

Constructive criticism was attempted during beta.
It failed.
More pointed criticism was attempted.
It failed.

It should be super-obvious by now that the only way you get change in this game is by:
1. investing millions into it
2. fluffing the egos who can make changes

So while I do agree with the video, unless you're willing to invest a lot of money or suck a lot of ***, your opinion matters about as much as an ice cream truck in rural Antarctica.

But that's fine. It's a tolerable game, and it will get tolerable support from me. Maybe $25 a year. Feels like a tolerable amount.

More passive-aggressive criticism was attempted.
And in an office somewhere, somebody got butthurt...

EsoRecon

You know what I think... The people that play the game the most, "hardcore players", probably know the game best you think?

rfennell_ESO

Moglijuana wrote: »

None of these recent comments are moving this discussion forward...just bashing the opinions of a loyal player...

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I'm not going to sweat it if some of the elites that have all day to play video games leave because it isn't what they want, I'll just play the game and have fun. I send in suggestions and bug reports, but don't ever feel the need to rant about a video game.

@FENGRUSH works 9-5 bro... so this elite vision you have for good players is probably wrong...

he streams to 6 am on workdays lol. I mean what more needs be said?

EsoRecon

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

None of these recent comments are moving this discussion forward...just bashing the opinions of a loyal player...

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I'm not going to sweat it if some of the elites that have all day to play video games leave because it isn't what they want, I'll just play the game and have fun. I send in suggestions and bug reports, but don't ever feel the need to rant about a video game.

@FENGRUSH works 9-5 bro... so this elite vision you have for good players is probably wrong...

he streams to 6 am on workdays lol. I mean what more needs be said?

What needs to be said? pls elaborate.

Lysette

Moglijuana wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I think Fengrush has no idea about how casuals play and for how long they stay in a game. He said like 3 months and then they are leaving the game - why would they possibly do that?- They have seen like nothing from this game in 3 months, because they do neither rush through the content nor would they spend a lot of time playing - if they get to play 20 hours per month that is already a lot and if they get up to 40 they hit a boundary, where their spouses will start to seriously get mad at them.

For casuals the game content will not run out anytime soon - they simply are not gamers who would consume a game like it would be melting ice cream. They do not burn through the content like being on speed and they do not run around like squirrels from quest to quest - they try to enjoy their time in Tamriel, without stress or the insane idea, that endgame would be what the game would be about - it is not - that what hardcore gamers see as a necessary evil - the PvE content - that is their game. And that Pvp content is not much more than a necessary evil, because they will most likely never get to it anyway.

This game can perfectly live on for many years to come, paid solely by casual players - they might not play a lot, they will as well not be a burden on the servers, but they are willing to keep up a subscription for years to come - because that is what they want - enjoyable entertainment to get back to, whenever they have a couple of hours. They do not seek a challenge, but entertainment, something to get away from reality for a bit - so they stay subscribed, because this is the cheapest seen long term. And that is exactky what ZOS wants as well - reliable income for years to come - so it is a win-win situation - just not for hardcore players.

You have it so backwards sometimes.

Lysette wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I think Fengrush has no idea about how casuals play and for how long they stay in a game. He said like 3 months and then they are leaving the game - why would they possibly do that?- They have seen like nothing from this game in 3 months, because they do neither rush through the content nor would they spend a lot of time playing - if they get to play 20 hours per month that is already a lot and if they get up to 40 they hit a boundary, where their spouses will start to seriously get mad at them.

For casuals the game content will not run out anytime soon - they simply are not gamers who would consume a game like it would be melting ice cream. They do not burn through the content like being on speed and they do not run around like squirrels from quest to quest - they try to enjoy their time in Tamriel, without stress or the insane idea, that endgame would be what the game would be about - it is not - that what hardcore gamers see as a necessary evil - the PvE content - that is their game. And that Pvp content is not much more than a necessary evil, because they will most likely never get to it anyway.

This game can perfectly live on for many years to come, paid solely by casual players - they might not play a lot, they will as well not be a burden on the servers, but they are willing to keep up a subscription for years to come - because that is what they want - enjoyable entertainment to get back to, whenever they have a couple of hours. They do not seek a challenge, but entertainment, something to get away from reality for a bit - so they stay subscribed, because this is the cheapest seen long term. And that is exactky what ZOS wants as well - reliable income for years to come - so it is a win-win situation - just not for hardcore players.

so basically in a nut shell: hardcore players,pvp fanatics,and streamers picked the wrong game to invest in. not arguing just interpreting.

Of course they did - like Mr. Firor said lately, this is not the typical MMO but more of an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG. And that is what it is going to be, you expect the wrong thing, if you think it will ever be something else.

He has said so many things, and constantly changes their agenda when they realize they can't accomplish anything. This is no different then stating their "MMO" is different than traditional MMOs. How so Matt/Lysette? Different because you're designing a single player experience but charging cash shop items that mimic an MMO?

Different as in "having no end game" - you guys are just not getting it - there is no end game and never will be - you might get an arena - another hamster cage for you to run in for a little while longer - but in fact ESO is a role playing game, an online version of an Elder Scrolls RPG - in that it is not a typical MMO. That ESO still has this hamster cage in Cyrrodil is just because it is still making some extra cash - if it will do that no longer, it might cease to be a PvP zone, who can say that now - you guys say, you will eventually leave, and think that is a threat - it is not, they might wait for you to actually do it. They cannot kick you out because you have paid for the game and are customers, but you are not the desired kind of customer, that's for certain. The whole game development is showing this.

The problem is, the Dev team hints at going in a certain direction (usually to appeal to both PvE & PvP) but then they go in a completely different direction without any discussion with the players that play their game...

Did it ever come to your mind, that ZOS has the data - they can actually see, where most players are and what they are doing most of the time - if it would be pvp, then they would cater for this more - but as it seems, it is not pvp, despite that this kind of people cry the loudest in the forum - in actual numbers they just seem to be insignificant, not worth the hassle. They are still providing some income, so you pvp guys will get some bread crumbs from time to time, but that's it. Otherwise it is an online role playing game based on the PvE and role play crowd - because, you might not believe it, they are the majority and they will stick with the game and not bail out for the next big hype, like you guys will do - bail and invade the next thing like a swarm of locusts, make people there miserable with your poison until it will be time for the locusts to bail and swarm to the next hype - and you think, you guys are preferred customers?- Now, get real.