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Spy Addon Group Damage

  • Some_Guy
    Some_Guy
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    Shunravi wrote: »
    Shunravi wrote: »
    Wait.... You're serious?

    Yes. Why do you ask ?
    Things like that happen all the time, in guilds' groups, in half-guild groups (that's what I call groups made of several guilds), in half-pug groups (that's how I call a PUG group made via, for instance, a trading guild), and pure pug groups. To several extents and in different forms (sometimes people will tell you straight away that they're only making this run for a personal DPS check against Valariel or the mage or the manti... , sometimes they'll pretend to just not have war horn and no skill points left...).
    Happens all the time, and no raid leader "authority" can counter that.

    Actually the place where it is most likely to happen is a pure pug group, and the place where it is less likely to happen is in a top progression guild (because people there really care about group results, and individualism is less tolerated).

    .

    Really? Just.... Really?

    Since when is warhorn required for anything but leaderboard runs? Props to you for running it, its a great support skill, but really? Worse, if you are the one pushing to use it that kinda makes you the elitist jerk here...

    @Cuyler is it true what our mutual sorc buddy Vivian tells me? Do you guys activate synergies on your runs? Just curious because reasons....

    In 1.5 I remember sorcs being more on the support role side IF they were even included in the trials run, and I often ran War Horn/Negate (depending on the trial) which did not increase my personal dps, but helped to increase the chance/ease of success for the group. My groups knew I was running them and that my dps would be lower because of it. As a sorc now, it's all about dat Overload baby. 25k to 30k (or more) depending on the fight, and running support abilities would potentially decrease that by 10-15k. Needless to say, I don't run support ultimates anymore unless absolutely unavoidable (which, thus far, hasn't happened since the "Sorcerer Uprising").

    If you're doing casual stuff, then that War Horn isn't going to make a huge difference. Look at the trials leaderboards. I guarantee, GUARANTEE, those top teams, have NO problem with people refusing to run the ultimates required by the group. And I know some teams require you to immediately share dps, especially when you're new to the group, to prove that you are contributing to a leaderboard time, and not just being carried.
    I have, many times, helped people with builds, rotations, and strategies to help them become better players, because I once was a garbage dpser and needed help. I hated not being able to carry my weight, so I know that feeling. Now, thanks to the help I got, I'm in a position to help others. But when I'm running for a top time on the Sanctum Ophidia leaderboards is not the time for help. That's when you carry your weight or lose your spot on the run.
    If you don't want to run with us "elitist @**holes" who have dps requirements, then don't run with us. I will not be offended one bit if you tell me that you refuse to run with someone who runs the "spy add-on". May the Divines smile upon the developer of this wondrous add-on!

    @Shunravi I know I don't synergize s*** as a dps, especially while Overloading in a boss fight (which usually puts me in a position too far to activate most synergies). We do have some synergies that are meant for dps to use, but the other synergies, like Liquid Lightning, we usually leave for someone else to use, as that activating them would usually result in a loss of dps, both for the individual, and the group. Tanks and healers don't really have as much dps to "lose" and can activate them.
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  • Shunravi
    Shunravi
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    Shunravi wrote: »
    Since when is warhorn required for anything but leaderboard runs? Props to you for running it, its a great support skill, but really? Worse, if you are the one pushing to use it that kinda makes you the elitist jerk here...

    I am not the one leading the raids in my guild, but I think that war horn is an extremely useful skill in a 12-man instance, and it's a waste no to use it. What's "elitist" about it ? If you have a good group it can help you reach the leaderboards and if you have a weaker group it can help you avoid the enraging of mobs, it's good in both cases. It's basic math : no single-person DPS will ever be higher than an increase of 10%+ for everyone.

    Its elitest because your groups are requiring it. Props again for using it, that 10% does help and is signifigant. But its not necessary. That 10% will be reflected in the addon, so im still confused as to why you are using these examples as arguments against it. Are you thinking your group, or any group for that matter, will kick you for ensuring their damage boost? I honestly cant understand your concern.


    Fun story time. The other day, I and another guildie were asked to help out another guilds first time trials run. There were maybe two or three guys in their entire guild who had ever even set foot in a trial because they were a semi casual RP guild. We were running the addon, so we could see that they werent pulling top numbers or anything, but we were killing the bosses just fine. What the addon did alow us to do however, is directly support those who were having a bit of trouble. In AA, everythings more stack and burn, but we could shore up killing adds on the portal pad splits a bit more efficiently. In the Hel Ra gate split it helped us assign groups so that each had a decent balance ensuring we could get through. And we did. Quite quickly and with minimal losses i might add... And in Sanctum, they cleared Manti first time after just a couple of wipes to see the mechanics. I was honestly impressed with how well they learned, but i would say the addon certainly helped us to make the groups and help them run smoothly.

    Could it have been done without the addon? Possibly. But i would say it helped. The best part is, no one needed to talk about the dps. No one had to call out numbers. The guy doing 3-5 percent of the damage as a dps didnt need to be made to feel judged. We had fun, we laughed. We told them we were running an addon that did this, and this group of casual elder scrolls players were fine with it.

    Annyways, I would like to say im impartial. I dont care to much if it stays or goes. But in my experience as both someone running a guild and someone who pugs, this is more benificial than toxic. But ymmv
    This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!
  • Shunravi
    Shunravi
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    Some_Guy wrote: »
    Shunravi wrote: »
    Shunravi wrote: »
    Wait.... You're serious?

    Yes. Why do you ask ?
    Things like that happen all the time, in guilds' groups, in half-guild groups (that's what I call groups made of several guilds), in half-pug groups (that's how I call a PUG group made via, for instance, a trading guild), and pure pug groups. To several extents and in different forms (sometimes people will tell you straight away that they're only making this run for a personal DPS check against Valariel or the mage or the manti... , sometimes they'll pretend to just not have war horn and no skill points left...).
    Happens all the time, and no raid leader "authority" can counter that.

    Actually the place where it is most likely to happen is a pure pug group, and the place where it is less likely to happen is in a top progression guild (because people there really care about group results, and individualism is less tolerated).

    .

    Really? Just.... Really?

    Since when is warhorn required for anything but leaderboard runs? Props to you for running it, its a great support skill, but really? Worse, if you are the one pushing to use it that kinda makes you the elitist jerk here...

    @Cuyler is it true what our mutual sorc buddy Vivian tells me? Do you guys activate synergies on your runs? Just curious because reasons....

    In 1.5 I remember sorcs being more on the support role side IF they were even included in the trials run, and I often ran War Horn/Negate (depending on the trial) which did not increase my personal dps, but helped to increase the chance/ease of success for the group. My groups knew I was running them and that my dps would be lower because of it. As a sorc now, it's all about dat Overload baby. 25k to 30k (or more) depending on the fight, and running support abilities would potentially decrease that by 10-15k. Needless to say, I don't run support ultimates anymore unless absolutely unavoidable (which, thus far, hasn't happened since the "Sorcerer Uprising").

    If you're doing casual stuff, then that War Horn isn't going to make a huge difference. Look at the trials leaderboards. I guarantee, GUARANTEE, those top teams, have NO problem with people refusing to run the ultimates required by the group. And I know some teams require you to immediately share dps, especially when you're new to the group, to prove that you are contributing to a leaderboard time, and not just being carried.
    I have, many times, helped people with builds, rotations, and strategies to help them become better players, because I once was a garbage dpser and needed help. I hated not being able to carry my weight, so I know that feeling. Now, thanks to the help I got, I'm in a position to help others. But when I'm running for a top time on the Sanctum Ophidia leaderboards is not the time for help. That's when you carry your weight or lose your spot on the run.
    If you don't want to run with us "elitist @**holes" who have dps requirements, then don't run with us. I will not be offended one bit if you tell me that you refuse to run with someone who runs the "spy add-on". May the Divines smile upon the developer of this wondrous add-on!

    @Shunravi I know I don't synergize s*** as a dps, especially while Overloading in a boss fight (which usually puts me in a position too far to activate most synergies). We do have some synergies that are meant for dps to use, but the other synergies, like Liquid Lightning, we usually leave for someone else to use, as that activating them would usually result in a loss of dps, both for the individual, and the group. Tanks and healers don't really have as much dps to "lose" and can activate them.

    Nightblades were in that boat too. I was proud that i could get a veil down every time there was a manti stomp in the old runs... But i was definately there for support.

    Annyways, yea synergies are still being activated in the group.
    This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Shunravi wrote: »
    Shunravi wrote: »
    Since when is warhorn required for anything but leaderboard runs? Props to you for running it, its a great support skill, but really? Worse, if you are the one pushing to use it that kinda makes you the elitist jerk here...

    I am not the one leading the raids in my guild, but I think that war horn is an extremely useful skill in a 12-man instance, and it's a waste no to use it. What's "elitist" about it ? If you have a good group it can help you reach the leaderboards and if you have a weaker group it can help you avoid the enraging of mobs, it's good in both cases. It's basic math : no single-person DPS will ever be higher than an increase of 10%+ for everyone.

    Its elitest because your groups are requiring it. Props again for using it, that 10% does help and is signifigant. But its not necessary. That 10% will be reflected in the addon, so im still confused as to why you are using these examples as arguments against it. Are you thinking your group, or any group for that matter, will kick you for ensuring their damage boost? I honestly cant understand your concern.

    It's rather the opposite : I "sacrifice" myself (if I may say so) by slotting warhorn myself BECAUSE other people feel "deprived of their right to do their best personal DPS" if we ask them to slot a support ability. Our healers both hate PvP and truly don't have war horn. So usually there's me and the raid leader - who's also the tank, alternating war horn. And we're so used to playing together that we know exactly who, when and in what order to activate it. It would be better arithmetically if I kept my overload and someone else would slot war horn, but we prefer to keep everyone happy and avoid wasting time discussing or forcing people.

    Why is it relevant to the current discussion ?

    Because people, whether casual or hardcore, inexperienced or proficient, careless or ambitious, have been obsessed by DPS-meters ever since DPS-measuring addons exist. Psychologically, it leads to DPS feeling amputated of something as soon as they slot a support ability. It's simply lead to more individualistic behaviours within groups.
    But so far you could only see your own DPS and be bothered by your own DPS. And free to post your occasional 24K burst and hide your regular 14K output (or 6K because we all mess up every now and then ;-) )

    GroupDamage brings the whole issue to an entire new level by allowing comparison and rankings. People will do everything (not slot or use support abilities, not rezzing others, not using synergies, etc...) in order to NOT BE THAT GUY LAST IN THE RANKINGS. Even at the cost of the group's output. And the more "PUG" or "casual" the group is going to be, the more acute this symptom will be.

    .

    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on January 18, 2016 4:05PM
  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    In reality however, we all have our qualities and faults (Obvious is my middle name). Being a little bit selfish ...... infiltrating better players' groups from time to time for the sake of an achievement, doesn't make anyone a bad person or a horrible buddy player altogether.
    That is so bad. This is exactly why this addon needs to remain. There are soooo many more sub-par players lying or omitting their dps to try and piggyback on the efforts of players who spend the time and effort to get better at the game. Way more than the ridiculously low amount of "elitist jerks" picking up pugs with the sole purpose of berating them about their dps. It's one thing to go in and make everyone aware your dps is low (this will often result in a positive experience) and another thing completely to go in with direct intent to mislead the group.

    Example...you're at your job. And you don't do ***. Everyone has cover your work for you and the business is suffering because of it. Company wonders, "why is the business suffering" and says, "we'd like to review everyone's performance to help improve our results". Then they realized oh you don't do ***.....commence firing....or a discussion as to how to improve performance.

    Your stance is that of, "Nope. I don't want you to review me...because? feelings, reasons. Nope I don't think you should fire me because I'm underperforming....because? (I don't even know)" It's not logical.
    Dawnblade wrote: »
    Oh and if someone doesn't want their performance to be judged, just don't group - problem solved.
    ^^ This exactly.
    That's what people who feel uncomfortable with the mere existence of this add on will do because that is the ultimate counter for it.
    Problem is, grouping is what keeps people in the game. People would quit upon completing the content if it was not for their social contacts and guilds, which is nurtured by group content. People being happy and comfortable about grouping up is essential for the health of the game. That's why ZOS devotes many resources into fixing the grouping tools and allowing us to group up regardless of level and even, soon, regardless of faction.
    They won't let an add-on jeopardize their efforts.
    Addons don't judge people. People judge people. So with or without this addon YOU WILL STILL BE JUDGED. it's unavoidable. Your target is the "elitist attitude", yet you scapegoat this addon. You've missed your mark, unfairly mind you, and to the detriment of those players looking to better themselves and their groups with more accurate information.
    Edited by Cuyler on January 18, 2016 4:19PM
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • Shunravi
    Shunravi
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    Shunravi wrote: »
    Shunravi wrote: »
    Since when is warhorn required for anything but leaderboard runs? Props to you for running it, its a great support skill, but really? Worse, if you are the one pushing to use it that kinda makes you the elitist jerk here...

    I am not the one leading the raids in my guild, but I think that war horn is an extremely useful skill in a 12-man instance, and it's a waste no to use it. What's "elitist" about it ? If you have a good group it can help you reach the leaderboards and if you have a weaker group it can help you avoid the enraging of mobs, it's good in both cases. It's basic math : no single-person DPS will ever be higher than an increase of 10%+ for everyone.

    Its elitest because your groups are requiring it. Props again for using it, that 10% does help and is signifigant. But its not necessary. That 10% will be reflected in the addon, so im still confused as to why you are using these examples as arguments against it. Are you thinking your group, or any group for that matter, will kick you for ensuring their damage boost? I honestly cant understand your concern.

    It's rather the opposite : I "sacrifice" myself (if I may say so) by slotting warhorn myself BECAUSE other people feel "deprived of their right to do their best personal DPS" if we ask them to slot a support ability. Our healers both hate PvP and truly don't have war horn. So usually there's me and the raid leader - who's also the tank, alternating war horn. And we're so used to playing together that we know exactly who, when and in what order to activate it. It would be better arithmetically if I kept my overload and someone else would slot war horn, but we prefer to keep everyone happy and avoid wasting time discussing or forcing people.

    Why is it relevant to the current discussion ?

    Because people, whether casual or hardcore, inexperienced or proficient, careless or ambitious, have been obsessed by DPS-meters ever since DPS-measuring addons exist. Psychologically, it leads to DPS feeling amputated of something as soon as they slot a support ability. It's simply lead to more individualistic behaviours within groups.
    But so far you could only see your own DPS and be bothered by your own DPS. And free to post your occasional 24K burst and hide your regular 14K output (or 6K because we all mess up every now and then ;-) )

    GroupDamage brings the whole issue to an entire new level by allowing comparison and rankings. People will do everything (not slot or use support abilities, not rezzing others, not using synergies, etc...) in order to NOT BE THAT GUY LAST IN THE RANKINGS. Even at the cost of the group's output. And the more "PUG" or "casual" the group is going to be, the more acute this symptom will be.

    .
    Again, if you are ensuring a missing damage boost, i dont see your concern.
    This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Cuyler wrote: »
    Example...you're at your job. And you don't do ***.
    .../...
    Your target is the "elitist attitude"

    But this is not a job, see ? This is a freakin' video game. That's the point.
    But if you really want to make the comparison with the working environment : managing teams and individuals by internal competition and scoreboards and purely quantitative performance monitoring is a thing of the past. Modern management has acknowledged that noone will work effectively with someone looking over their shoulder all the time.
    In a company, the goal is to identify and keep good people and identify and get rid of bad people. If it should be the same in a videogame... is up to personal opinions, I guess.
    But ultimately, in the office or in a videogame, noone will be uniformly good at everything or bad at everything, and the same people who carry others in certain circumstances will be the ones who will be carried in other circumstances.

    "Elitist attitude ?" ... putting words in my mouth ? I've even mentioned that this addon is likely to do the most benefit and the less damage in progression guilds, but unfortunately it will be available to all and will destroy PUGs. Where's the "elitist attitude" please ?

    .

    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on January 18, 2016 4:22PM
  • Instant
    Instant
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    GroupDamage brings the whole issue to an entire new level by allowing comparison and rankings. People will do everything (not slot or use support abilities, not rezzing others, not using synergies, etc...) in order to NOT BE THAT GUY LAST IN THE RANKINGS. Even at the cost of the group's output.

    Wtf? This is like saying it's the weapon manufacturers fault when someone gets murdered.
    It's the players who decide to not rez for dps that need to see what they are doing. This addon is just a tool.
    Destroying this addon is like fighting the symptoms of a disease, not the disease itself.
    Edited by Instant on January 18, 2016 4:22PM
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Instant wrote: »
    Wtf? This is like saying it's the weapon manufacturers fault when someone gets murdered.

    EXACTLY !
    I did not dare making that analogy for fear of derailing the discussion onto a slippery slope.
    But yes, ultimately, the one who shot first is the one who invented guns.

    ----

    (I'll stop here for today at least - stuff to do + I want to leave space for other contributors to this thread).
    .

    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on January 18, 2016 4:34PM
  • failkiwib16_ESO
    failkiwib16_ESO
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    ...I'm going to download this addon and I plan to use it for pug teams. It will be entertaining ^^

    Have fun everyone, whatever your arguements are - I am sure there are positive and negative outcome from both perspectives.
  • Tankqull
    Tankqull
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    doubt that addon will survive.
    the reason is rather simple - it is compleatly idiotic to bloat client -server communication as ZOS currently does by permanently informing everybody in a certain vicintiy about absolutly everything thats going on with everybody instead of restricting these information to only actual char informations as other games do, changing this will probably reduce pvp lag aswell and make this addon no longer work...
    spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused

    Sallington wrote: »
    Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"


  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    8/10 times I need to kick a pug who snuck into my vet wgt farm run claiming they had 20k dps when they pull barely 10. This addon is godsend and let's me tell straight away whereas previously it took me around 3-5 wipes to pinpoint who was noobing and how they were noobing. Imo there are FAR MORE players *** their way into groups where they have no business being. If ur barely pulling 10 k you shouldn't pm for a FRICKIN FARM run. You're just trying to leech your FRICKIN FIRST CLEAR. Do I kick cos I'm elitist? NO. I kick cos you lied your ass off CLEARY knowing that you do no meet the requirements for a FARM run of vwgt.

    This isn't destroying pugs. This is enhancing pugging experience. If you're just doing a daily pledge no one is going to care about your dps as Long as your not pulling 2k dps or something. I have NEVER kicked a random pug ever for pulling subpar dps in a daily pledge that is not icp or wgt. Everything else is a joke. As Long as you have a SINGLE player pulling 15k, boss is going to go down in at most 2 mins (assuming everyone stays alive).

    You're contributions to the group should be general information available to EVERYONE in the group. If not why play as a group? This is an mmo for goodness sake. Why assume that most players are jerks who will kick you the second they see u pulling 10k dps? Here's a news flash, 7/10 times I do pledges, there's always a DD barely pulling 12k. The truth is, NO ONE CARES unless it is a farm/achieve/trial run. You know you don't belong there anyway. This addon just Ensures everyone realises you don't belong there too. Quit hiding behind a curtain. If people kick you for Low dps in a regular pledge they are being total pricks and they will be pricks regardless of this addon.

    What I've noticed is that elitist pricks like to group with other elitist pricks so they won't invite some random into their party anyway. So you have NOTHING to worry about. I'd like to believe most of us are sane and generally nice people and as such, this addon should be allowed.
    Edited by Vangy on January 18, 2016 4:52PM
    (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    @Vangy : you've just taught me something : until now I thought "farm run" meant "relaxed, no time/achievement pressure, it's just for the loot".

    You learn everyday.

    NB : (don't look for irony or controversy in this post, there isn't. Words have different meanings for different people).
  • Woeler
    Woeler
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    Removing this function from the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd rather see it go. The hardcore community (including me) that "needs" such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, requiring someone to post with FTC isn't that big of a deal.

    And this is coming from a hardcore raider of Beyond Infinity.
    Edited by Woeler on January 18, 2016 5:01PM
  • Shunravi
    Shunravi
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    @Vangy : you've just taught me something : until now I thought "farm run" meant "relaxed, no time/achievement pressure, it's just for the loot".

    You learn everyday.

    NB : (don't look for irony or controversy in this post, there isn't. Words have different meanings for different people).

    Yea... Its kinda one of those things that should be standard game vernacular but isnt....

    Anyways, it means they are rushing to the last boss to farm it for its helm. So everyone needs high dps and mechanical knowledge.

    I doesnt mean they are going to spend hours 'farming' the adds and watching the clouds pass as they plow back and forth on a warm sunny day... ;)
    This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!
  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    Woeler wrote: »
    Removing this function from the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd rather see it go. The hardcore community (including me) that "needs" such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, requiring someone to post with FTC isn't that big of a deal.

    And this is coming from a hardcore raider of Beyond Infinity.

    Keeping this function in the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd see it stay. The carebear community that minds such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, 70% of pugs don't even know what FTC is so asking them to post FTC is a pretty big deal.

    And this is coming from someone who thinks the above post has no logic/supporting reasons.
    Edited by Vangy on January 18, 2016 5:12PM
    (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
  • Fissh
    Fissh
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    Oh noes!!!! The decade long argument still exist!!!
    If you don't want to be measured, you don't want to improve. Improving is fun too. It gets you better gear....
    <X-Raided>
  • Miszou
    Miszou
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    Whenever I see the phrase "improve your build", I just assume it means I'm about to be patronized for not using the latest "meta".
  • asneakybanana
    asneakybanana
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    Destruent wrote: »
    group-support etc is the same for everyone in a group...I know that you can't compaire your raid-dps with your dps in a pug-group. But you CAN compare the dps of DDs in the same pug-group. Regarding your examples...a (sorc-)dd? warhorn?? rly??

    Activating a synergy arithmetically lowers the DPS of the person who activates it. Extra damage is not calculated as his own output. Many players don't bother activating them because of "DPS-meters", that's a fact. "Public" DPS-meters will only make things worse.

    Yes, warhorn for a sorc-DD. I am a sorc DD and I am often required to slot warhorn. Simply because other players don't want to because of "Holy-DPS-meter". I know it's ridiculous, a waste of potential, but I don't care if my DPS sinks by 5K if it benefits the group's global DPS by 30K, but some people prefer to care of their own DPS. It's gonna be worse when they'll fear the judgement and "rankings" induced by this addon. ESPECIALLY IN PUGs. Nobody will want to slot war horn if they believe that their individual ultimate will prevent them from ranking last and appear as being carried by the group.

    .

    Most synergies actually do count towards your dps and there are just a few special cases that don't. When you activate a gravity crush or a conduit that damage is shown in ftc meaning it at the very least counts towards your dps. The other day we were doing wgt andi crit a gravity crush on the planar inhibitor for 42k and it definitely boosted my dps a bit.
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  • Ruben
    Ruben
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    Miszou wrote: »
    Whenever I see the phrase "improve your build", I just assume it means I'm about to be patronized for not using the latest "meta".

    You assume wrong. If you grouped with newer players you would see a lot of people going heavy+sns and wondering why they don't do enough damage. Not so new players also might not use skills correctly (like spamming DoTs or hard casting crystal fragments) and that's much easier to detect when you can see the dps.
    DK Stamina DPS
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  • Woeler
    Woeler
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    Vangy wrote: »
    Woeler wrote: »
    Removing this function from the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd rather see it go. The hardcore community (including me) that "needs" such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, requiring someone to post with FTC isn't that big of a deal.

    And this is coming from a hardcore raider of Beyond Infinity.

    Keeping this function in the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd see it stay. The carebear community that minds such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, 70% of pugs don't even know what FTC is so asking them to post FTC is a pretty big deal.

    And this is coming from someone who thinks the above post has no logic/supporting reasons.

    Like it or not "the carebear community" of this game is massive. Heck most people in this game think they are playing "skyrim online". This argument has nothing to do with what is logical on performance level. Do you really think the developer of a game cares at all if players improve, grow or perform better? LOL seriously, no. This is a business, and a business is about money and most of that money is coming from the "carebears".

    Why do you think the API was closed in the first place? Because the people in this community are mostly more elder scrolls oriented and less mmo oriented.

    But you must be one of the cool ones, quoting a post like that. Wish I was that cool.

    Without the carebears (and yes I think they are annoying too) this game is dead.
    Edited by Woeler on January 18, 2016 5:50PM
  • LadyNalcarya
    LadyNalcarya
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    Miszou wrote: »
    Whenever I see the phrase "improve your build", I just assume it means I'm about to be patronized for not using the latest "meta".

    Well, that depends. Its possible to do acceptable (but ofc not top notch) dps without minmaxed stats/race/build.
    But if you want to play something super unique (like templar archer healer or stamina nb with a staff) and your group wipes because of low dps/heals or bad tanking, then you kinda have to adjust your build.
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  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    Cuyler wrote: »
    Example...you're at your job. And you don't do ***.
    .../...
    Your target is the "elitist attitude"

    But this is not a job, see ? This is a freakin' video game. That's the point.
    But if you really want to make the comparison with the working environment : managing teams and individuals by internal competition and scoreboards and purely quantitative performance monitoring is a thing of the past. Modern management has acknowledged that noone will work effectively with someone looking over their shoulder all the time.
    In a company, the goal is to identify and keep good people and identify and get rid of bad people. If it should be the same in a videogame... is up to personal opinions, I guess.
    But ultimately, in the office or in a videogame, noone will be uniformly good at everything or bad at everything, and the same people who carry others in certain circumstances will be the ones who will be carried in other circumstances.

    "Elitist attitude ?" ... putting words in my mouth ? I've even mentioned that this addon is likely to do the most benefit and the less damage in progression guilds, but unfortunately it will be available to all and will destroy PUGs. Where's the "elitist attitude" please ?

    No. You're correct, it's not a job obviously, that again was an example. As you point out it's a video game, however what you delicately omit is that this is a video game in which you join a "team", filling "positions" to achieve goals and this parallels to what? A job. I'd wager, for most groups, that the goal of playing this game is the completion of an instance, getting a new monster set or that next achievement, which is performance dependent. The point is, when the goal is to achieve these things, filling the "positions" with players that can perform the task to achieve the goal is essential. A review by your peers is something you will never be able to avoid, with or without the addon in this case.

    Maybe you can avoid a peer review, maybe you have, maybe you've been ostracized and maybe you know others players as well BUT very few of the players I meet in game have the goal of, "let's go wipe 100 times, waste hours, get nothing for it, laugh about the dps who did 5k and then do nothing to improve the next time DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY types". Most if not all of the new players I meet with 0% experience want to get better when they realize they aren't performing well and understand the legitimacy of a peer review when joining groups.

    One simply needs to go back through your posts, it's plain to see who your real target is..... the "elitist" mentality that ruins your pugs game experiences. I didn't say your attitude was elitist. I just find it odd your relating previous or future negative pug experiences to an indiscriminant addon and not the real cause....elitists or even the slackers you're so adamantly enabling.
    Edited by Cuyler on January 18, 2016 7:09PM
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • Shunravi
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    Woeler wrote: »
    Why do you think the API was closed in the first place? Because the people in this community are mostly more elder scrolls oriented and less mmo oriented.

    Well... If I'm remembering correctly this game used to be a bit different, course it was an alpha/ early beta build...They listened to those in the community who wanted immersion and changed many things including API. I blame many problems on this change, but whatever.
    This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!
  • Naslu
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    Fantastic, just fantastic! In the blue corner we have "remove it pls" , in the red corner "keep it pls", a lot has been said on that topic here.
    And then i read on another thread
    click me to get to this one
    the demand for training dummies to be able to improve. Nobody is there who said "no - its disturbing my way to play if i have to train on dummies to get better...."
    Sometimes i'm indeed speechless ;-P

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  • coolmodi
    coolmodi
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    kaer426 wrote: »
    So casual that you had to make an involuntary group dps meter ADD-ON to run pledges with pugs ....

    I don't even have an V16 char, so no, I don't run vet dungeons, or trials. Last time I did was nearly 2 years ago, with my V10 healer that's still V10.

    But non-vet LFG dungeons are bad enough already, they're easy, but with 1 or even 2 "I want my dps private"-lazy DDs it's still torture. And if this addon can combat those guys in trials or vet dungeons where they may even ruin the run completely, then that makes it even better!

    This addon will only ever hurt people who refuse to get good but still want to cheat their way into "good" groups to be carried. This is nothing bad!
    Really, all those egoists here that demand to not have to be good but still get into good groups are just pathetic. If I ever get to max level (or they remove vet ranks :D) and want to run trials, then guess what, this addon would "hurt" me the same, but why should I have the right to make it harder for others and reduce their fun just so I can have some by lying my way into groups?

    Edited by coolmodi on January 18, 2016 7:12PM
  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    Woeler wrote: »
    Removing this function from the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd rather see it go. The hardcore community (including me) that "needs" such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, requiring someone to post with FTC isn't that big of a deal.

    And this is coming from a hardcore raider of Beyond Infinity.

    I can't comment on what is best for the entire community. I don't have enough data to do so. What I can comment on is the experience in my community, which includes 100s of players ranging from hardcore to the extreme casual. all the feedback has been positive (so far). Assumptions drawn about "massive carebear" populations, are just that, assumptions.

    Based again on my experience since the addon's release is that the population of "extreme don't spy on me carebears" is just as small as the hardcore population and that it's entirely possible there is a massive group of casuals who are neither for or against this addon. That's to say they could care less about numbers but are open minded to advice.
    Edited by Cuyler on January 18, 2016 8:01PM
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  • Woeler
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    Well population numbers aside, the closed API was a design decision, and this addon is a work around so I'm pretty sure it will be patched up solely based on that.
  • timidobserver
    timidobserver
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    Woeler wrote: »
    Well population numbers aside, the closed API was a design decision, and this addon is a work around so I'm pretty sure it will be patched up solely based on that.

    Sadly this is most likely true. However, the previous design decision was made during beta by someone(Paul Sage) that no longer works at Zenimax. The way I recall it, preventing DPS meters was not the primary reason. Some perceived right to dps privacy had nothing to do with it. That was just a casualty. The real reason was that the open API allowed people to easily automate things that they did not want automated.
    Edited by timidobserver on January 18, 2016 8:45PM
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  • Xexpo
    Xexpo
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    coolmodi wrote: »
    kaer426 wrote: »
    So casual that you had to make an involuntary group dps meter ADD-ON to run pledges with pugs ....

    I don't even have an V16 char, so no, I don't run vet dungeons, or trials. Last time I did was nearly 2 years ago, with my V10 healer that's still V10.

    But non-vet LFG dungeons are bad enough already, they're easy, but with 1 or even 2 "I want my dps private"-lazy DDs it's still torture. And if this addon can combat those guys in trials or vet dungeons where they may even ruin the run completely, then that makes it even better!

    This addon will only ever hurt people who refuse to get good but still want to cheat their way into "good" groups to be carried. This is nothing bad!
    Really, all those egoists here that demand to not have to be good but still get into good groups are just pathetic. If I ever get to max level (or they remove vet ranks :D) and want to run trials, then guess what, this addon would "hurt" me the same, but why should I have the right to make it harder for others and reduce their fun just so I can have some by lying my way into groups?

    Dude.. I don't even ...
    Why do you need a dps meter if you are not running end game content? I'm baffled.
    I mean, non max level players are usually going to have pretty weak builds, if they even have a build at all... lol
    They are still leveling up... gear is pretty much disposable until v16
    I am sorry that you force yourself into lfg pug groups, and are not interested in reaching max level, but that doesn't justify your add-on.

    For the record, I don't even care if anyone is using this add-on.

    I just found it pretty weak that people came into this thread calling everyone out for being baddies or whatever, over an add-on THAT SHOULDN'T EVEN EXIST. (they all just glaze over that detail)
    Especially when there are already legitimate damage add-ons that people can use voluntarily.

    So many jedi mind tricks in here convincing players that they are somehow lesser because they are not in favor of an add-on that was never intended by ZOS to work the way it does.
    Edited by Xexpo on January 18, 2016 11:58PM
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