Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Wait.... You're serious?

Yes. Why do you ask ?
Things like that happen all the time, in guilds' groups, in half-guild groups (that's what I call groups made of several guilds), in half-pug groups (that's how I call a PUG group made via, for instance, a trading guild), and pure pug groups. To several extents and in different forms (sometimes people will tell you straight away that they're only making this run for a personal DPS check against Valariel or the mage or the manti... , sometimes they'll pretend to just not have war horn and no skill points left...).
Happens all the time, and no raid leader "authority" can counter that.

Actually the place where it is most likely to happen is a pure pug group, and the place where it is less likely to happen is in a top progression guild (because people there really care about group results, and individualism is less tolerated).

.

Really? Just.... Really?

Since when is warhorn required for anything but leaderboard runs? Props to you for running it, its a great support skill, but really? Worse, if you are the one pushing to use it that kinda makes you the elitist jerk here...

@Cuyler is it true what our mutual sorc buddy Vivian tells me? Do you guys activate synergies on your runs? Just curious because reasons....

In 1.5 I remember sorcs being more on the support role side IF they were even included in the trials run, and I often ran War Horn/Negate (depending on the trial) which did not increase my personal dps, but helped to increase the chance/ease of success for the group. My groups knew I was running them and that my dps would be lower because of it. As a sorc now, it's all about dat Overload baby. 25k to 30k (or more) depending on the fight, and running support abilities would potentially decrease that by 10-15k. Needless to say, I don't run support ultimates anymore unless absolutely unavoidable (which, thus far, hasn't happened since the "Sorcerer Uprising").

If you're doing casual stuff, then that War Horn isn't going to make a huge difference. Look at the trials leaderboards. I guarantee, GUARANTEE, those top teams, have NO problem with people refusing to run the ultimates required by the group. And I know some teams require you to immediately share dps, especially when you're new to the group, to prove that you are contributing to a leaderboard time, and not just being carried.
I have, many times, helped people with builds, rotations, and strategies to help them become better players, because I once was a garbage dpser and needed help. I hated not being able to carry my weight, so I know that feeling. Now, thanks to the help I got, I'm in a position to help others. But when I'm running for a top time on the Sanctum Ophidia leaderboards is not the time for help. That's when you carry your weight or lose your spot on the run.
If you don't want to run with us "elitist @**holes" who have dps requirements, then don't run with us. I will not be offended one bit if you tell me that you refuse to run with someone who runs the "spy add-on". May the Divines smile upon the developer of this wondrous add-on!

@Shunravi I know I don't synergize s*** as a dps, especially while Overloading in a boss fight (which usually puts me in a position too far to activate most synergies). We do have some synergies that are meant for dps to use, but the other synergies, like Liquid Lightning, we usually leave for someone else to use, as that activating them would usually result in a loss of dps, both for the individual, and the group. Tanks and healers don't really have as much dps to "lose" and can activate them.

Some_Guy wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Wait.... You're serious?

Yes. Why do you ask ?
Things like that happen all the time, in guilds' groups, in half-guild groups (that's what I call groups made of several guilds), in half-pug groups (that's how I call a PUG group made via, for instance, a trading guild), and pure pug groups. To several extents and in different forms (sometimes people will tell you straight away that they're only making this run for a personal DPS check against Valariel or the mage or the manti... , sometimes they'll pretend to just not have war horn and no skill points left...).
Happens all the time, and no raid leader "authority" can counter that.

Actually the place where it is most likely to happen is a pure pug group, and the place where it is less likely to happen is in a top progression guild (because people there really care about group results, and individualism is less tolerated).

.

Really? Just.... Really?

Since when is warhorn required for anything but leaderboard runs? Props to you for running it, its a great support skill, but really? Worse, if you are the one pushing to use it that kinda makes you the elitist jerk here...

@Cuyler is it true what our mutual sorc buddy Vivian tells me? Do you guys activate synergies on your runs? Just curious because reasons....

In 1.5 I remember sorcs being more on the support role side IF they were even included in the trials run, and I often ran War Horn/Negate (depending on the trial) which did not increase my personal dps, but helped to increase the chance/ease of success for the group. My groups knew I was running them and that my dps would be lower because of it. As a sorc now, it's all about dat Overload baby. 25k to 30k (or more) depending on the fight, and running support abilities would potentially decrease that by 10-15k. Needless to say, I don't run support ultimates anymore unless absolutely unavoidable (which, thus far, hasn't happened since the "Sorcerer Uprising").

If you're doing casual stuff, then that War Horn isn't going to make a huge difference. Look at the trials leaderboards. I guarantee, GUARANTEE, those top teams, have NO problem with people refusing to run the ultimates required by the group. And I know some teams require you to immediately share dps, especially when you're new to the group, to prove that you are contributing to a leaderboard time, and not just being carried.
I have, many times, helped people with builds, rotations, and strategies to help them become better players, because I once was a garbage dpser and needed help. I hated not being able to carry my weight, so I know that feeling. Now, thanks to the help I got, I'm in a position to help others. But when I'm running for a top time on the Sanctum Ophidia leaderboards is not the time for help. That's when you carry your weight or lose your spot on the run.
If you don't want to run with us "elitist @**holes" who have dps requirements, then don't run with us. I will not be offended one bit if you tell me that you refuse to run with someone who runs the "spy add-on". May the Divines smile upon the developer of this wondrous add-on!

@Shunravi I know I don't synergize s*** as a dps, especially while Overloading in a boss fight (which usually puts me in a position too far to activate most synergies). We do have some synergies that are meant for dps to use, but the other synergies, like Liquid Lightning, we usually leave for someone else to use, as that activating them would usually result in a loss of dps, both for the individual, and the group. Tanks and healers don't really have as much dps to "lose" and can activate them.

Nightblades were in that boat too. I was proud that i could get a veil down every time there was a manti stomp in the old runs... But i was definately there for support.

Annyways, yea synergies are still being activated in the group.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

In reality however, we all have our qualities and faults (Obvious is my middle name). Being a little bit selfish ...... infiltrating better players' groups from time to time for the sake of an achievement, doesn't make anyone a bad person or a horrible buddy player altogether.

That is so bad. This is exactly why this addon needs to remain. There are soooo many more sub-par players lying or omitting their dps to try and piggyback on the efforts of players who spend the time and effort to get better at the game. Way more than the ridiculously low amount of "elitist jerks" picking up pugs with the sole purpose of berating them about their dps. It's one thing to go in and make everyone aware your dps is low (this will often result in a positive experience) and another thing completely to go in with direct intent to mislead the group.

Example...you're at your job. And you don't do ***. Everyone has cover your work for you and the business is suffering because of it. Company wonders, "why is the business suffering" and says, "we'd like to review everyone's performance to help improve our results". Then they realized oh you don't do ***.....commence firing....or a discussion as to how to improve performance.

Your stance is that of, "Nope. I don't want you to review me...because? feelings, reasons. Nope I don't think you should fire me because I'm underperforming....because? (I don't even know)" It's not logical.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

Oh and if someone doesn't want their performance to be judged, just don't group - problem solved.

^^ This exactly.
That's what people who feel uncomfortable with the mere existence of this add on will do because that is the ultimate counter for it.
Problem is, grouping is what keeps people in the game. People would quit upon completing the content if it was not for their social contacts and guilds, which is nurtured by group content. People being happy and comfortable about grouping up is essential for the health of the game. That's why ZOS devotes many resources into fixing the grouping tools and allowing us to group up regardless of level and even, soon, regardless of faction.
They won't let an add-on jeopardize their efforts.

Addons don't judge people. People judge people. So with or without this addon YOU WILL STILL BE JUDGED. it's unavoidable. Your target is the "elitist attitude", yet you scapegoat this addon. You've missed your mark, unfairly mind you, and to the detriment of those players looking to better themselves and their groups with more accurate information.

Cuyler wrote: »

Example...you're at your job. And you don't do ***.
.../...
Your target is the "elitist attitude"

But this is not a job, see ? This is a freakin' video game. That's the point.
But if you really want to make the comparison with the working environment : managing teams and individuals by internal competition and scoreboards and purely quantitative performance monitoring is a thing of the past. Modern management has acknowledged that noone will work effectively with someone looking over their shoulder all the time.
In a company, the goal is to identify and keep good people and identify and get rid of bad people. If it should be the same in a videogame... is up to personal opinions, I guess.
But ultimately, in the office or in a videogame, noone will be uniformly good at everything or bad at everything, and the same people who carry others in certain circumstances will be the ones who will be carried in other circumstances.

"Elitist attitude ?" ... putting words in my mouth ? I've even mentioned that this addon is likely to do the most benefit and the less damage in progression guilds, but unfortunately it will be available to all and will destroy PUGs. Where's the "elitist attitude" please ?

.

Instant wrote: »

Wtf? This is like saying it's the weapon manufacturers fault when someone gets murdered.

EXACTLY !
I did not dare making that analogy for fear of derailing the discussion onto a slippery slope.
But yes, ultimately, the one who shot first is the one who invented guns.

----

(I'll stop here for today at least - stuff to do + I want to leave space for other contributors to this thread).
.

doubt that addon will survive.
the reason is rather simple - it is compleatly idiotic to bloat client -server communication as ZOS currently does by permanently informing everybody in a certain vicintiy about absolutly everything thats going on with everybody instead of restricting these information to only actual char informations as other games do, changing this will probably reduce pvp lag aswell and make this addon no longer work...

@Vangy : you've just taught me something : until now I thought "farm run" meant "relaxed, no time/achievement pressure, it's just for the loot".

You learn everyday.

NB : (don't look for irony or controversy in this post, there isn't. Words have different meanings for different people).

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Vangy : you've just taught me something : until now I thought "farm run" meant "relaxed, no time/achievement pressure, it's just for the loot".

You learn everyday.

NB : (don't look for irony or controversy in this post, there isn't. Words have different meanings for different people).

Yea... Its kinda one of those things that should be standard game vernacular but isnt....

Anyways, it means they are rushing to the last boss to farm it for its helm. So everyone needs high dps and mechanical knowledge.

I doesnt mean they are going to spend hours 'farming' the adds and watching the clouds pass as they plow back and forth on a warm sunny day...

Oh noes!!!! The decade long argument still exist!!!
If you don't want to be measured, you don't want to improve. Improving is fun too. It gets you better gear....

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

group-support etc is the same for everyone in a group...I know that you can't compaire your raid-dps with your dps in a pug-group. But you CAN compare the dps of DDs in the same pug-group. Regarding your examples...a (sorc-)dd? warhorn?? rly??

Activating a synergy arithmetically lowers the DPS of the person who activates it. Extra damage is not calculated as his own output. Many players don't bother activating them because of "DPS-meters", that's a fact. "Public" DPS-meters will only make things worse.

Yes, warhorn for a sorc-DD. I am a sorc DD and I am often required to slot warhorn. Simply because other players don't want to because of "Holy-DPS-meter". I know it's ridiculous, a waste of potential, but I don't care if my DPS sinks by 5K if it benefits the group's global DPS by 30K, but some people prefer to care of their own DPS. It's gonna be worse when they'll fear the judgement and "rankings" induced by this addon. ESPECIALLY IN PUGs. Nobody will want to slot war horn if they believe that their individual ultimate will prevent them from ranking last and appear as being carried by the group.

.

Most synergies actually do count towards your dps and there are just a few special cases that don't. When you activate a gravity crush or a conduit that damage is shown in ftc meaning it at the very least counts towards your dps. The other day we were doing wgt andi crit a gravity crush on the planar inhibitor for 42k and it definitely boosted my dps a bit.

Vangy wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Removing this function from the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd rather see it go. The hardcore community (including me) that "needs" such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, requiring someone to post with FTC isn't that big of a deal.

And this is coming from a hardcore raider of Beyond Infinity.

Keeping this function in the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd see it stay. The carebear community that minds such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, 70% of pugs don't even know what FTC is so asking them to post FTC is a pretty big deal.

And this is coming from someone who thinks the above post has no logic/supporting reasons.

Like it or not "the carebear community" of this game is massive. Heck most people in this game think they are playing "skyrim online". This argument has nothing to do with what is logical on performance level. Do you really think the developer of a game cares at all if players improve, grow or perform better? LOL seriously, no. This is a business, and a business is about money and most of that money is coming from the "carebears".

Why do you think the API was closed in the first place? Because the people in this community are mostly more elder scrolls oriented and less mmo oriented.

But you must be one of the cool ones, quoting a post like that. Wish I was that cool.

Without the carebears (and yes I think they are annoying too) this game is dead.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Example...you're at your job. And you don't do ***.
.../...
Your target is the "elitist attitude"

But this is not a job, see ? This is a freakin' video game. That's the point.
But if you really want to make the comparison with the working environment : managing teams and individuals by internal competition and scoreboards and purely quantitative performance monitoring is a thing of the past. Modern management has acknowledged that noone will work effectively with someone looking over their shoulder all the time.
In a company, the goal is to identify and keep good people and identify and get rid of bad people. If it should be the same in a videogame... is up to personal opinions, I guess.
But ultimately, in the office or in a videogame, noone will be uniformly good at everything or bad at everything, and the same people who carry others in certain circumstances will be the ones who will be carried in other circumstances.

"Elitist attitude ?" ... putting words in my mouth ? I've even mentioned that this addon is likely to do the most benefit and the less damage in progression guilds, but unfortunately it will be available to all and will destroy PUGs. Where's the "elitist attitude" please ?

No. You're correct, it's not a job obviously, that again was an example. As you point out it's a video game, however what you delicately omit is that this is a video game in which you join a "team", filling "positions" to achieve goals and this parallels to what? A job. I'd wager, for most groups, that the goal of playing this game is the completion of an instance, getting a new monster set or that next achievement, which is performance dependent. The point is, when the goal is to achieve these things, filling the "positions" with players that can perform the task to achieve the goal is essential. A review by your peers is something you will never be able to avoid, with or without the addon in this case.

Maybe you can avoid a peer review, maybe you have, maybe you've been ostracized and maybe you know others players as well BUT very few of the players I meet in game have the goal of, "let's go wipe 100 times, waste hours, get nothing for it, laugh about the dps who did 5k and then do nothing to improve the next time DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY types". Most if not all of the new players I meet with 0% experience want to get better when they realize they aren't performing well and understand the legitimacy of a peer review when joining groups.

One simply needs to go back through your posts, it's plain to see who your real target is..... the "elitist" mentality that ruins your pugs game experiences. I didn't say your attitude was elitist. I just find it odd your relating previous or future negative pug experiences to an indiscriminant addon and not the real cause....elitists or even the slackers you're so adamantly enabling.

Fantastic, just fantastic! In the blue corner we have "remove it pls" , in the red corner "keep it pls", a lot has been said on that topic here.
And then i read on another thread
click me to get to this one
the demand for training dummies to be able to improve. Nobody is there who said "no - its disturbing my way to play if i have to train on dummies to get better...."
Sometimes i'm indeed speechless ;-P

Woeler wrote: »

Removing this function from the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd rather see it go. The hardcore community (including me) that "needs" such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, requiring someone to post with FTC isn't that big of a deal.

And this is coming from a hardcore raider of Beyond Infinity.

I can't comment on what is best for the entire community. I don't have enough data to do so. What I can comment on is the experience in my community, which includes 100s of players ranging from hardcore to the extreme casual. all the feedback has been positive (so far). Assumptions drawn about "massive carebear" populations, are just that, assumptions.

Based again on my experience since the addon's release is that the population of "extreme don't spy on me carebears" is just as small as the hardcore population and that it's entirely possible there is a massive group of casuals who are neither for or against this addon. That's to say they could care less about numbers but are open minded to advice.

Woeler wrote: »

Well population numbers aside, the closed API was a design decision, and this addon is a work around so I'm pretty sure it will be patched up solely based on that.

Sadly this is most likely true. However, the previous design decision was made during beta by someone(Paul Sage) that no longer works at Zenimax. The way I recall it, preventing DPS meters was not the primary reason. Some perceived right to dps privacy had nothing to do with it. That was just a casualty. The real reason was that the open API allowed people to easily automate things that they did not want automated.