AoE Caps Discussion

MrGrimey · December 2015

@wrobel

's AOE caps

tinythinker · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Thanks for the update on these.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive.

Also good to hear.

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

Merlight · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective

Great, would love to see more fire-breathing DKs. No sarcasm, I really like watching them do it.

Wrobel wrote: »

• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Careful with this. Blackwater Blade doesn't need another nail-bomb in the coffin (by which I mean easy access to detonation).

Efficient · December 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Thanks for the update on these.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive.

Also good to hear.

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

think bigger. please stay on topic.

Nafirian · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

Takllin · December 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Thanks for the update on these.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive.

Also good to hear.

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

His explanation for the AoE caps confirms that he doesn't know the current state of Cyrodil. He thinks removing them will make people ball up and spam AoEs, yet that is EXACTLY what is happening right now. So yes, he doesn't get it.

The other changes he listed are good, but those changes are not AoE caps, which is the sole purpose of this thread last time I checked. If were gonna list off bugs to fix, why not go with these:

- Emp Siege Buff is Broken
- Bow Attacks go through Wings
- Unbreakable CCs(Fear, Reverberating Bash, etc.)
- Radiant Destruction is Dodgeable
- Jabs doesn't get 140% damage bonus against Shields

Etc.

Efficient · December 2015

Takllin wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Thanks for the update on these.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive.

Also good to hear.

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

His explanation for the AoE caps confirms that he doesn't know the current state of Cyrodil. He thinks removing them will make people ball up and spam AoEs, yet that is EXACTLY what is happening right now. So yes, he doesn't get it.

The other changes he listed are good, but those changes are not AoE caps, which is the sole purpose of this thread last time I checked. If were gonna list off bugs to fix, why not go with these:

- Emp Siege Buff is Broken
- Bow Attacks go through Wings
- Unbreakable CCs(Fear, Reverberating Bash, etc.)
- Radiant Destruction is Dodgeable
- Jabs doesn't get 140% damage bonus against Shields

Etc.

There is no explanation for AoE caps at all actually. He has not talked about the TOPIC at all. We instead, are talking about ability changes to help solve problems. That's not what this thread is about. Everyone please stay on topic. MODS?!

Jhunn · December 2015

Counterproductive to the discussion? Which discussion? Wrobel's not having an AOE caps discussion, he's dodging it. As I wrote on first page, nothing else than what @FENGRUSH wrote needs to be written. I'm not even sure Wrobel has read it

MrGrimey · December 2015

@wrobel

Magicka det is essential for some builds, Single target damage is fine, it's the multiplier and AOE range that needed increasing. The single target damage is fine, especially considering that you either need to be close range with a 8 second det time or have a 1.8 second cast time.

Alcast · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

When you nerf Steeltornado, then Stamina Classes will be nerfed hard in PvE and not be viable anymore because now Stamina usually had less Single Target DPS but could be good because we had a bit more AOE dmg, with that nerf bb more AoE dmg. How do you plan to "bolster" that nerf for PvE?

Jhunn · December 2015

There's nothing to screw up more. PVP is in the worst state it's ever been in.

AfkNinja · December 2015

Seriously. @FENGRUSH summed up the issue on page one with a very detailed response, yet here we are with AOE caps not being removed again. ZOS prefers to use a band-aid on this wound instead of stitches.

WebBull · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Sounds like melee ranged builds are going to be screwed.

skillastat · December 2015

JUST REMOVE AOE CAPS ALREADY

Ezareth · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

@Wrobel

Personally, I think too many players are focusing on AoE Caps as the primary issue at hand. The problem is many fold and AoE Caps are only one contributing factor. Additionally I believe the copycat mentality is extremely strong in PvP and not many people are capable/willing to try new strategies approaches these days so issues become self-prophesying.

I think there needs to be some changes to deincentivize players from balling up beyond combat changes. Adjustments should be made to AP and Experience to become less rewarding for players to play in large groups.

I'm fine with these changes and a "wait and see approach". I think the Siege changes will help restrict some of the zerging yet I worry that by buffing them too much you risk creating keeps which are unassailable due to the way you can put siege down inside defending keeps so without other major changes a large zergball inside of a keep will actually *benefit* from these changes.

Steel Tornado was well past needing adjusting. I don't think it is really a large PvE nerf at all.

I agree with the changes to Magicka Detonation but I do not think it is going to be any sort of silver bullet to the problem.

I'm glad to see that you're looking at the Gap Closer stun issue and hopefully are able to find the right solution.

Thanks for the response. Please try to communicate more often than you have been. A bit of back and forth with the community would be appreciated.

Rana1014 · December 2015

Sigh. It baffles me that you guys keep dancing around the solution; the blobs are a direct consequence of AOE caps, which is a key contributor to the ridiculous lag. The changes to siege are a great step, the other things however, won't do a thing. Please fix the problem head on. @Wrobel

Remdale · December 2015

I think you should all go back and read the posts Wrobel mentioned. They present some reasons why AoE caps shouldn't be removed or Wrobel's view of why they're in at least.

If you think about it, *[removing] AoE caps would lead to larger fights being over in even quicker and more devastating fashion, and they prefer there to be more to the fights than that. It's clear that he does want to address the lumping, I'm just concerned he isn't giving it enough weight.

I would be fine with a solution that left AoE caps in, as long as there is a solution. People are TIRED and frustrated to their limits with current stacking, as evidenced by this thread.

*edit

pema · December 2015

whatever you do, start understanding that PVP and PVE are not the same. And many people are affected by al the ***** things you did to please PVP players.
The nerf in stam realy made stam builds and tanks suffer, and I still hate that.

Adjust stuff for cyro(and I guess IC) fine, but stop ruining the game for the rest of us!

DHale · December 2015

Mr Wrobel thank you for the communication. I won't profess to speak for everyone else. I certainly appreciate it. I do think the changes for mentioned will be good for the game, that said I realize you are in charge of abilities so I say with all due respect just remove aoe caps we don't want them. I have subbed since April 2014. The players base has played lots of mmo that died from ppl leaving, don't give us reasons to go give us reasons to stay give us reasons to play and keep playing. We think it will improve the game we have to try. I try to run groups of 8 to 12 they bring 24. I run in a group of 24 they bring 48. I bring 48 they bring 80. It's not fun at that point. Five players with the same ability or couple of abilities are all on my death recount in almost every fight. It's crit charge into wrecking blow or steel tornados. The lag is bad so I only know they hit cause my screen turned blue... A telltale sign. Players running four and five thousand weapon damage every ability tears through my light armor like tissue paper. I put my fire ring and hit 20 vamps all balled together and do one fifth the damage than the steel tornado even with the 25 percent flame damage and how many did I hit for that damage, not even a quarter of the group. Not a good Zerg buster for sure.

Huckdabuck · December 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

When you nerf Steeltornado, then Stamina Classes will be nerfed hard in PvE and not be viable anymore because now Stamina usually had less Single Target DPS but could be good because we had a bit more AOE dmg, with that nerf bb more AoE dmg. How do you plan to "bolster" that nerf for PvE?

Hmmmmmm.....guess I missed the part where they nerfed the Wrecking Blow/Executioner and Poison Injection/Snipe combos in the patch notes? Steel tornado should be identical to Impulse. Small radius and NO execute.....there never should have been anything resembling Spin to Win.

Iyas · December 2015

So aoe caps not going away? thanks for the good laugh Mr. Wrobel

PainfulFAFA · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

Post #61 is good and i agree with everything he says
Post #93's argument is that removing AoE Caps reduces the TTK another group. In other words, that entire fight might last 2 seconds and the winner will be whoever gets their bombs off first. Thats what the meta as been for many of these ogranized groups since 1.6

However, why arent these groups using abilities that offer mitigation?
Barriers,Novas,Veils, Magma Armor, Bone Shield, Circle of Protection, and Negates are all ways to reduce damage

This is were fights become tactical and player positioning becomes important.
Dropping MITs in the middle of the fight would require these groups to strategically place these MITs and to stay inside the range of these MITs to reduce all incoming damage as much as possible to survive the bomb.

Consider 2 full raids about to clash.
Raid A bombs Raid B with Meteors, DawnBreakers, DragonLeaps, Tethers, Standards, Bats.

Raid B drops Novas, Veils, Magma Armors, Negates, and Barriers
Raid B has a chance to surive if they synergize well with their groups Magma Armors, Bone Shields, on top of the Nova,Veils, and Barriers.

One way Raid A can counter the ground MITs is with a well placed Negate.
But Raid B can still survive these because of the initial mitigation on top of the shields that Barriers,Magma Armor, and Bone Shield offers.

What I'm trying to say is that if the argument for not removing the AoE Caps is because of the
TTK, consider re-looking at abilities that offer mitigation (including ones that grant shields).

This is where player positioning and coordinated mitigation through player Abilities and Ultimates become important in order to avoid the massive damage bomb that the removal of AoE caps would bring.
[/b]

Essiaga · December 2015

Jhunn wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

[snip]

@Wrobel did accurately stated the issue many are having in PVP so he gets the issue, and listed some concerns they are working on. If you don't like what he said continue to make strong points to counter what he said not just gripe.

12 days is a while but its better then other topics are getting so I'm glad he returned and I hope the community gives him more legitimate arguments that he can further take into consideration.

We want to convience ZOS to change. Not bully them into changing. I'll admit I've been attempting to 'bully' a response on certain topics but I'm simply trying to get them to the table.

Wrobel is here so lets keep on point and give him constructive feed back. Change is on the way. We can shape it or [snip] on it but conversations break down when emotions are the only things on the table.

[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

Zheg · December 2015

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

Post #61 is good and i agree with everything he says
Post #93's argument is that removing AoE Caps reduces the TTK another group. In other words, that entire fight might last 2 seconds and the winner will be whoever gets their bombs off first. Thats what the meta as been for many of these ogranized groups since 1.6

However, why arent these groups using abilities that offer mitigation?
Barriers,Novas,Veils, Magma Armor, Bone Shield, Circle of Protection, and Negates are all ways to reduce damage

This is were fights become tactical and player positioning becomes important.
Dropping MITs in the middle of the fight would require these groups to strategically place these MITs and to stay inside the range of these MITs to reduce all incoming damage as much as possible to survive the bomb.

Consider 2 full raids about to clash.
Raid A bombs Raid B with Meteors, DawnBreakers, DragonLeaps, Tethers, Standards.

Raid B drops Novas, Veils, Magma Armors, Negates, and Barriers
Raid B has a chance to surive if they synergize well with their groups Magma Armors, Bone Shields, on top of the Nova,Veils, and Barriers.

One way Raid A can counter the ground MITs is with a well placed Negate.
But Raid B can still survive these because of the initial mitigation on top of the shields that Barriers,Magma Armor, and Bone Shield offers.

What I'm trying to say is that if the argument for not removing the AoE Caps is because of the
TTK, consider re-looking at abilities that offer mitigation (including ones that grant shields).

This is where player positioning and coordinated mitigation through player Abilities and Ultimates become important in order to avoid the massive damage bomb that the removal of AoE caps would bring.
[/b]

The thing is, we ARE using mitigation. Barriers are cycled through, novas and negates and counter negates are dropped, devouring bats are used on some dps, buffs go up before the push - it's still over in literally seconds. Usually the most effective bombs have a well placed leap/streak that catches people that didn't pop an immovable potion right before the collision, and the CC'd group is dead before they can CC break. Damage is just so high (particularly skills like prox det, ults, steel tornado, etc.) that even in the current meta the fights are over before you can blink. Add in the effect an emp can have and the TTK is even further reduced in group engagements.

Xsorus · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

Seriously..did you really make a thread on AOE caps..not say anything for days before finally responding and talking about everything else but AOE caps?

Derra · December 2015

I wish there was a way to be polite about your response mr wrobel.
There is not. You create a topic on aoe caps on which you dont respond for over a week. The vast majority in your topic is for the removal of that arbitrairy cap.
Yet in your reply you come here and dont even mention caps (on which you fail to give reason why they should or do exist in the game in the first place) but give the answer they wont change between the lines.

Thanks for not even having the backbone to tell people straight to the face. I sincerely hope someone at zos will realise someday the tremendous mistakes Mr wrobel made. He will not.
You can read between the lines here what i think should happen for the good of the game ;-)

Cinbri · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

Nifty2g · December 2015

they added in aoe caps and dont know how to remove them

Yuke · December 2015

Pretty much what @Derra and @Xsorus already said.

Also i want to know, what there is to be considered regarding this:

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly

To me, this is clearly a case of 'exploitable things that shouldnt be in the game'. If its not, please enlighten me Mr. Wrobel.

Talcyndl · December 2015

@Wrobel

Thanks for the post. Personally, it's nice to see you recognize the issue with the current Blob v. Blob PvP gameplay.

As for AoE caps, I think people overestimate the difference the removal would make in countering such groups. And also ignore the issues with complete cap removal.