Paradox wrote: »

Totally 100% agree with everything in this glorious post. Why CP isnt' being removed or changed in Blackwater Blade in the upcoming PvP changes patch is far beyond me. Come on, ZoS. Everything here makes perfect sense.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

spoqster wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

Yes @Vizier, you are completely right. The type of experimentation you write about is exactly what makes this game so much fun.

Now imagine you could have started with your experimentation at level 50, without having to level to v14. That's why people want the Veteran Ranks gone.

And now imagine you've done all the experimentation, you've practiced and you've got all your gear, but you have a job and a family, and you don't want to face players who are 20% more powerful than you simply because they don't. That's why people want the Champion System gone.

When I play Counter Strike for the first time, I also don't expect to win straight away. And I won't. That's because the experienced players have more practice and thus have more skill at the game. And that's perfectly fine. But if I start playing Counter Strike for the first time (with my pistol in hand), and face seasoned players who have shields, rocket launchers and jet-packs, then I wouldn't be playing that game for long. Simple multiplayer game dynamics.

Paradox wrote: »

druezub17_ESO wrote: »

I like the CP points being in non vent campaigns. It is very similar to twink combat in WOW 29 bracket, or 39 bracket. I think I should be rewarded for having a character that is leveled up and if I make a new one the bonus is nice to have. Say whatever you want, but I like to feel powerful

Nothing about the WoW PvP twinks was a good thing. It destroyed any sense of balance between new players and old. You don't need large percentage values ruining the experience of a new player coming into PvP for the first time.

If you want to destroy the balance of an entire PvP server, then go back to WoW. A lot of us here just want a fair playing field. Sure there are advantages that an older player will have.. Skill, gear, etc. But all of these can be equalized by the new player. CP is not capable of being matched by a new player. This is where the problem lies and it's the basis for this thread.

syko809 wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

@syko809 Are you actually telling me to play more, because I don't think that's possible. =P

@Women nah am talking about does guys or girls since I actually meet a few that play this game, who dont invest the time into the game and then complain when the people who do kill them in PvP.. like I said I waited some time before jumping into PvP literally right after I hit 1 veteran why because I got some CPs and some good skills unlike some people who go into it being level 20 and expect it to be a fair fight... Man this ain't COD

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

spoqster wrote: »

I am really tired of people saying "an MMORPG is like xy, it has always been like that".

I am not going to go into details here, as this issue has been discussed in many other threads only recently. See the bottom for links. I am only going to list the most relevant thoughts.

Putting MMORPGs into perspective:

1. MMORPGs are a mix of two game types, an RPG and a multiplayer game.
2. RPGs only have vertical character progression because it is a relic from pen and paper times, when this was needed to abstract character progression. While this abstraction works in single player games (barely, e.g. not without scaling the content around you or accepting sequential world progression) it is not necessary in most computer games, because in games which feature sufficiently complex combat mechanics, players can improve their individual skill.
3. Successful multiplayer games use little or no vertical progression.
4. The current standard of themepark MMORPGs was successfully pioneered by WoW. WoW offered one way of merging RPG and multiplayer, but it's not the only way. The themepark model falls short especially in terms of player freedom (open world) and multiplayer, the two areas The Elder Scrolls series and ZOS, respectively, stand for. That's why many players expected ZOS to do more pioneering work in terms of MMO game mechanics.
5. ZOS already adopted the FPS-esque look-based combat from the TES series (to great avail -- I am never going back to point-and-click for one), so it is not far-fetched to expect them to draw inspiration from high success multiplayer titles. And with battle-leveling they are already taking steps to level the playing field.
6. Nobody argues that an RPG should not have character progression. But many people are so used to vertical progression, that they either don't know what horizontal progression is, or they can't imagine how it might work, and how it is superior to vertical progression in many ways (see links below).

So @Vizier, long story short, Counter Strike may appear as a bad analogy if you look at MMORPGs as some online-computer version of 1980s Dungeons and Dragons. But if you accept the fact that it is 2015 now, and you are a game developer with the ambition to create an MMORPG with the best possible multiplayer experience, then the Counter Strike analogy is actually very useful.

In fact, a MMORPG game developer should have the ambition to join the multiplayer and RPG genres in way that creates a multiplayer experience that parallels and even surpasses the best multiplayer games out there. And in some ways they have done so, as ESO's PvP (especially in BWB) is so fascinatingly complex and action-packed at the same time, that many, many console players were blown away when they first played it. Most people I played with after switching over from PC have told me in-game that it is the best multiplayer game they have ever played. It's just sad to see that ZOS is eroding it's own genius by implementing an antiquated progression system. And that's what this thread is all about.

Paradox wrote: »

We want an equal opportunity, not total equality. If you want an advantage, use a gear set. It will only add to the gap that your skill has already created, which is fine. New players can overcome a skill and gear gap. They cannot however overcome a Champion Point gap. It's literally just not possible.

That's what we want. The opportunity to be on an equal playing field, to hone our skills, to hone the skills of new players, to kill players that are better. We don't just want CP to be the difference when I'm fighting someone who grinder 1000CP, and you can be damned sure that an experience like that would turn off a new player.

Insurmountable differences are not good for an MMO. They're already talking about a CP catch up mechanic to balance out the issues with that. Thing is... New players, ones with no veteran toons, no matter how good they can potentially become after a time in non-veteran, will never be able to bridge that gap before he vets out and is forced to grind CP to play with the people exploiting it in the non-veteran campaign that he'll probably never come back to.

• Deaedric Artifacts are super-powerful weapons which only exist once in each campaign. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Daedric_Artifact
• Players can pick them up and lose them to their assailant when they die.
• A player can only wield one Artifact at any given time.
• Players can only wield an Artifact for a specific amount of time or a certain number of individual uses before they lose it.
• When a character loses an Artifact from over-use it returns to it's spawn point.
• When a player who currently wields an Artifact logs out, the Artifact is transferred to the member of his group > guild > alliance with the most AP.
• While in combat (and up to X mins after combat ended), the Artifact's location is visible on the map.
• Prevention against mis-use such as hiding the Artifact (it pops up on the map automatically after 30 mins of non-combat), Artifact trading (every player can only wield Artifact for X hours each week), and others are necessary.
• Of course these Artifacts would need to be balanced well, need fit in with the current Emperor mechanic, etc.

• Mace of Molag Bal -- Light attack reduces a player's health to 1% and fills a grand soul gem, while a heavy attack delivers an AoE effect that reduces the magicka and health of all players in the vicinity to 50%.
• Dawnbreaker - Meridia's Weapon -- Light attack puts down a ray on the ground that instantly kills undead when hit. The heavy attack does a cone AoE that does an insane amount of damage to undead (vampires), literally burning them to the ground in-between all the non-vampires. Weapon does little to medium damage to non-undead players.
• Savior's Hide -- Gives players an insane amount magicka resistance but makes them weaker against physical attacks.
• Mehrune's Razor -- Heavy attack instantly kills enemy when used from stealth (and fills a soul gem), but approximate location is always visible on map.
• Oghma Infinium -- Gives wielder access to all skills in the game (except for the Emperor skill line) and unlimited skill points. Player is reset to original configuration when Artifact is lost.
• Ring of Namira -- Reflects 50% of all direct single target damage to the attacker, but not AoE or trap damage.
• Spellbreaker -- This powerful Dwemer shield reflects single-target magicka damage as a AoE damage when blocking. All affected targets are stunned.
• Ebony Blade -- Light attack channels life-drain to a group member, each successful heavy attack restores the wielder to full health. If used from stealth, attacks permanently increase the Artifact's weapon damage until Artifact lost.
• Volendrung -- A light attack reduces target's weapon damage to 0 for X seconds, while the heavy attack is similar to that of the Mace of Molag Bal, only that it drains health and stamina.
• Wabbajack -- A light attack summons a random npc creature at impact location. A heavy attack transforms a player into a random npc creature. If the npc dies while the player is transformed, the player dies - if not, the npc transforms back to the player character (with full resources) after X seconds.

spoqster wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

Yes @Vizier, you are completely right. The type of experimentation you write about is exactly what makes this game so much fun.

Now imagine you could have started with your experimentation at level 50, without having to level to v14. That's why people want the Veteran Ranks gone.

And now imagine you've done all the experimentation, you've practiced and you've got all your gear, but you have a job and a family, and you don't want to face players who are 20% more powerful than you simply because they don't. That's why people want the Champion System gone.

When I play Counter Strike for the first time, I also don't expect to win straight away. And I won't. That's because the experienced players have more practice and thus have more skill at the game. And that's perfectly fine. But if I start playing Counter Strike for the first time (with my pistol in hand), and face seasoned players who have shields, rocket launchers and jet-packs, then I wouldn't be playing that game for long. Simple multiplayer game dynamics.

Counter Strike isn't an RPG- The analogy does not work. The very nature of an RPG makes it so the longer you play the more powerful you are. THAT is what RPGs do. Rather than turn this great RPG into a FPS I suggest those that want that type of play buy that type of flipping game.

Good grief, even when playing Call of Duty and Battlefield you still have a major difference between those new to the game and those that have played for awhile and unlocked Sh..tuff.

ATM CP is an easy target but there's way too many other factors to consider before such a focus on CP. It's all

QQ

I am really tired of people saying "an MMORPG is like xy, it has always been like that".

I am not going to go into details here, as this issue has been discussed in many other threads only recently. See the bottom for links. I am only going to list the most relevant thoughts.

Putting MMORPGs into perspective:

1. A MMORPG is a mix of two game types, an RPG and a multiplayer game.
2. Computer game RPGs have vertical character progression only because it is a relic from pen and paper times, when this mechanic was needed to create an abstraction for character progression. While this abstraction works in single player games (barely, e.g. not without scaling the content around you or accepting sequential world progression) it is not necessary in most computer games, because in games which feature sufficiently complex combat mechanics, players can improve their individual skill.
3. Successful multiplayer games use little or no vertical progression.
4. The current standard of themepark MMORPGs was successfully pioneered by WoW. WoW offered one way of merging RPG and multiplayer, but it's not the only way. The themepark model falls short especially in terms of player freedom (open world) and multiplayer, the two areas The Elder Scrolls series and ZOS, respectively, stand for. That's why many players expected ZOS to do more revolutionary pioneering work in the area of MMO game mechanics.
5. ZOS already adopted the FPS-esque look-based combat from the TES series (to great avail -- I am never going back to point-and-click for one), so it is not far-fetched to expect them to draw inspiration from highly successful multiplayer titles. And with battle-leveling they are already taking steps to level the playing field.
6. Nobody argues that an RPG should not have character progression. But many people are so used to vertical progression, that they either don't know what horizontal progression is, or they can't imagine how it might work, and how it is superior to vertical progression in many ways (see links below).

So @Vizier, long story short, Counter Strike may appear as a bad analogy if you look at MMORPGs as some online-computer version of 1980s Dungeons and Dragons. But if you accept the fact that it is 2015 now, and you are a game developer with the ambition to create an MMORPG with the best possible multiplayer experience, then the Counter Strike analogy is actually very useful.

In fact, a MMORPG game developer should have the ambition to join the multiplayer and RPG genres in a way that creates a multiplayer experience that parallels and even surpasses the best multiplayer games out there. And in some ways they have done so, as ESO's PvP (especially in BWB) is so fascinatingly complex and action-packed at the same time, that many, many console players were blown away when they first played it. Most people I played with after switching over from PC have told me in-game that it is the best multiplayer game they have ever played. It's just sad to see that ZOS is eroding it's own genius by implementing an antiquated progression system. And that's what this thread is all about.


Relevant threads (apart from Deltias well known thread):

• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192438/why-is-everyone-going-nuts-about-cp
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192499/cp-debate-some-people-apparently-need-a-power-advantage-to-compensate-for-lack-of-skill
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192430/why-does-everyone-want-to-be-equal
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192948/what-is-horizontal-progression
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/193105/why-do-mmorpgs-have-vertical-progression

Vizier wrote: »

I'm real tired of people trying to make an RPG into a FPS to suit their misguided notions of "fairness." I'm real tired of people feeling like they are owed something they didn't earn or trying to bring down those that did to their level. There's a ton of games out there are arena based and throw folks together at virtually the same levels...shrug. This isn't that and never was intended to be that. If folks are going to get into an RPG they need to put their time in. As simple as that. I have less then 200 CP. My highest passive is bumped about 8-10% with 40 plus points into one category. I'm not going to start crying about the folks that ground their butts off to get 700-1000 points. They earned it. I didn't. It's irrelevant that I'm a full time student with a family and don't have tons of time to play. If it means so much to me, I'll find a way to grind.

The only folks that should be smacked down are those with so much CP they could have only done it running macros for months strait. Those cats clearly are abusing the system, but rather then screw everyone ZoS needs to look into those players. I'm sure they could figure out who did what pretty easily if they just looked.

Vizier wrote: »

What part of diminishing return for CP points spent do you not understand? The returns for points spent have an exponential loss as players achieve higher point CP values in any given category. Therefor play will ALWAYs decrease the gaps between the haves and have nots...ALWAYs. ...especially when, as is, PVE CP gains are significantly more efficient than in PvP.