Champion Points and the Future of Non-Vet PvP

Woman

Introduction:

We all have different reasons for loving Non-Vet PvP, but they mostly revolve around keeping the purity of TESO’s brilliant PVP system that we originally fell in love with during the game’s launch. In the non-vet pvp campaigns like Blackwater Blade, players don’t have the skills or resources yet to create both the lag and exploiting issues we have in the vet campaigns. Additionally, the battle leveling system there means that most sets are ineffective (since all players have flat max resources, regen and weapon/spell power). Succeeding in Non-Vet PvP relies on the individual player’s skill set, rather than just their build or what guild they happen to have gotten into.

In Blackwater Blade, new players do not get one-shotted, no one is unkillable and everyone has an equal chance at success. The result of this is exciting 24/7 action that revolves around the clock. Players from all alliances care about the entire picture of the campaign. They want their alliance to win, they want to get emperor for more than buffs, and to get scrolls for more than just a tower farm.

Non-Vet PVP is the living embodiment of what the developers and designers intended for TESO AvA to be. Many of us have stayed loyal to this game from day one because this campaign was introduced. I’ve gotten every skyshard in this game, completed every quest, every HM trial and I’ve never had as much fun as I do in Blackwater Blade.

Non-Vet Cyrodiil is truly large scale PvP at its finest, and its existence is in jeopardy.

The Problem:

Everything that I stated above is under threat by Champion Points. CP counters the entire system revolved around the equal opportunity that Battle Level creates. It was not an enormous problem until players began to earn 200+ champion points, and now some players have surpassed 500 points- making this problem a dire one. For those who disagree with the use of CP in the campaign, we still feel forced to use it in order to compete and help our alliance against those who do.This is a threatening cycle that can only be stopped by ZOS.


Just to demonstrate how significant an impact CP has on one’s build in Non-Vet PvP, here are the results of some tests I ran.

Analysis

We tested CP in BwB in three ways. The first test, the control, was to show the pure battle level damage with 0 champion points, the second to show the effect of Spell Erosion, and the third to test Thaumaturge.

The first test is simply to show what a player with 0 Champion Points can expect to do against a player who also has 0 Champion Points and act as a control.

TEST 2’s results were concerning, with only one player having CP slotted, to show the effect that CP has on a player without any. As you can see, with 93 points (23.8% spell penetration increase) into [Spell Erosion] the damage difference between the two is quite large. A nearly 200 point damage difference in every whip compared to the control test.

TEST 3’s results, while it showed less of a difference between TEST 2 and the control, there is still a moderate damage difference between a player with CP and one without when we slot 93 (23.8%) points into [Thaumaturge]. This difference will only increase as CP is slotted into different areas as well as [Thaumaturge].

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[Attacking player: 5% sharpened sword + shield || Lady boon || Magnus 5pc / Torug’s 4pc]
[Target Player: Warrior Boon || Seducer 5pc || No Resistance Modifications]

TEST 1 - 0CP in all categories
TEST 2 - 93 CP (23.8%) in Spell Erosion and nothing else
TEST 3 - 93 CP (23.8%) in Thaumaturge and nothing else

Target player remained at 0 CP during all tests and had no resistance beyond battle level scaling.

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Please note that these tests are only to show DPS, not the difference that Champion Points makes to spell cost, roll dodge cost, block cost, or anything other than just pure damage.

New players come to Non-Vet campaigns like Blackwater Blade to compete on an equal playing field. This was literally the entire purpose of the campaign’s creation. How can a new but talented player genuinely compete with a mage that has 20% extra Magicka regen, 20% extra reduced spell cost, increase block mitigation, dodge roll cost decrease, increased spell resistance, armor penetration, elemental damage, healing received, etc… What is the purpose of improving him/herself in the campaign if they can only compete once they become a vet? In which case they can’t even play in the campaign anymore.


The Solution:

The obvious solution is to completely remove CP from Non-Vet PvP campaigns. I understand that this might be technically challenging to do so, thus I would suggest implementing Battle Leveling to CP. Give everyone a flat 150 CP when they travel to Cyrodiil (non-vet), just like the game gives players extra resources, regen & spell/weapon power. Allow players to administer their flat number of CP according to their personal preference, thus they can still enjoy the fun & diverse Champion System the developers have created. When a player first enters Blackwater, they see their resource bars expand through Battle Leveling, giving them a taste of what’s to come once they achieve max level. A continuation of this idea with Champion Points would only further a new player’s excitement to continue playing and get to TESO’s Endgame, without breaking the balance of the campaign. This change will sustain the core philosophy behind Non-Vet PvP campaigns and keep its unique enjoyment intact.

Conclusion:

ZOS, I beg of you- please take these complaints seriously. I run a Non-Vet dueling guild and see the results of CP stacking first hand. Blackwater Blade has had many changes since it has been implemented, and while some of those changes have been major, they have still kept the core concept of the campaign unharmed. CP is the first time that this hidden jewel of TESO is under threat, and thus I felt the need to finally make a post about the subject.

tl;dr: Champion Points were implemented to replace the Veteran System in TESO. Thus, it’s only logical to conclude that Non-Vet PvP should be No-CP PvP.
Honestly, does anything else make sense?

Thank you to @IHateReloads, @Undistortion, @Gallifreyy, for your help in testing.

Paradox

Totally 100% agree with everything in this glorious post. Why CP isnt' being removed or changed in Blackwater Blade in the upcoming PvP changes patch is far beyond me. Come on, ZoS. Everything here makes perfect sense.

Sigtric

Yep. I pretty much am DONE with Vet Cyro campaigns until they are something more than a slide show. I've been spending a LOT of time in Blackwater and I love it, but I agree. The CP issue is going to kill it, and I'm already seeing the effects of it.

At level 22 or so, my Nightblade came across a level 12 that I could not kill. I've encountered lvl 49s and even a Vr1 in Blackwater that I've been able to down with little effort, this level 12 however just wasn't taking damage OR was regenerating faster than I could DPS.

It was pretty obvious to me that it was a CP point disparity, as I don't really have that many.

Gallifreyy

Yeah its hard to deny that CP in non vet pvp is broken and im at 280 at the time of this post and testing and the results are undeniable that things need to be changed for balancing.

Paradox

Think about combining Spell Erosion and Thaumaturge... Both with a 20%+ increase would be just an insane damage difference. It's going to get out of hand.

Vyle_Byte

Bravo OP, Bravo!!!!! You have said this better than I have seen it stated before! Nice work on giving us some proof! Thank you for that!

I completely 1000% agree. It IS a major concern and BWB will only get worse as more CP is gained. I can tell the difference in my own lowbies by spending my CP vs not using any. Have seen this transformation happen in BWB, CP's are tainting it's existence.

OP I really like your idea of giving everyone a flat base, I'd never even thought of that! If they cannot be removed I think this is a brilliant idea.

@ZOS Please dont let CPs ruin our beloved BWB!

Sigtric

To add more:

The biggest indication to me that CP is a broken system is the fact that I can take one of my EP VR characters and go grind zombies for a few hours to make my DC lowbie stronger. That is ridiculous.

I think:
1. Both vet and non-vet need CP disabled campaigns
2. CP should only be available for use on characters that can earn it. (Whether this means make them attainable at lvl 1 or not, I don't know, but this might be a decent way to do things)

As they stand right now, whoever has more time to grind XP is going to come out on top of nearly any given PVP fight because of the mathematical advantage and that needs to be corrected somehow.

Woman

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

OP I really like your idea of giving everyone a flat base, I'd never even thought of that! If they cannot be removed I think this is a brilliant idea.

Thanks, I do like the champion system asside from the balance issues, so I think it would still be fun to add that to our builds in BWB. Glad you agree!

jaaf

+1

This is a big problem and I was pretty disappointed when Eric said they have no plans to address it in the last ESO Live. Hopefully this post will gather enough community support to change their minds.

ZOS_RichLambert

/lurk

Gidorick

Woman

Just a correction:

TEST 2: Should be:


TEST 3: Should be:

kupacmac

Sigtric wrote: »

To add more:

The biggest indication to me that CP is a broken system is the fact that I can take one of my EP VR characters and go grind zombies for a few hours to make my DC lowbie stronger. That is ridiculous.

I think:
1. Both vet and non-vet need CP disabled campaigns
2. CP should only be available for use on characters that can earn it. (Whether this means make them attainable at lvl 1 or not, I don't know, but this might be a decent way to do things)

As they stand right now, whoever has more time to grind XP is going to come out on top of nearly any given PVP fight because of the mathematical advantage and that needs to be corrected somehow.

I'll take option 1 please.

Here's another option: CP can only be spent on characters that are vet rank.

Sposati

Agreed.

Thanks for documenting with tests and stats.

CP system now = bad game experience for my characters + no way to win against high CP accounts -> looking for another game title until CP modified to provide all players a chance to win/succeed against each other... Current CP creates a tiered player system, where some players create/enjoy unsurmountable advantages and the rest of the players are second tier, vulnerable to exploitation by the top tier.

This game has lost appeal to me because of the CP imbalances, and I'll remain pessimistic about the game's attractiveness to me until CP program modifications are officially communicated by ZOS...

I want to see a path where every player can/might win against another in PvP, as it was before the CP system was introduced; and where one player group cannot permanently exploit others.

Betrael

I'm still new to the game, but it seems pretty obvious (for balance) that any non-vet campaign should have CP disabled by default.

Woman

Sigtric wrote: »

To add more:


I think:
1. Both vet and non-vet need CP disabled campaigns
2. CP should only be available for use on characters that can earn it. (Whether this means make them attainable at lvl 1 or not, I don't know, but this might be a decent way to do things)

While I certainly agree CP requires balancing in general, I do think that CP in vet PVP is a separate issue than CP in non-vet PVP. I think it's pretty expected for a vet toon to have CP, but it goes against all logic for a non vet toon to have it in a campaign dedicated to being non-vet.

Slonekb05

Base pvp would fix all this mess, only argument against that is players crying about character progression. Those are the players ganking low lv's and getting some sort of false superiority. Character progression is PVE- should have 0 to do with PVP.

Paradox

Slonekb05 wrote: »

Base pvp would fix all this mess, only argument against that is players crying about character progression. Those are the players ganking low lv's and getting some sort of false superiority. Character progression is PVE- should have 0 to do with PVP.

Totally agreed. PvP should be based on skill and build, not a point value that you gained by killing snakes and goblins.

Twistntie

I'd just like to add that as a new player who is getting up there in levels, one of the things that's made me dread starting pvp is the feeling that even if I have a good understanding of my class, I'll get messed up by people who have the advantage of playing longer than I have, and will never be at the same level. I'll always feel like I'm behind no matter what, like I'm some sort of scrub for not having played since launch.

Woman

Twistntie wrote: »

I'd just like to add that as a new player who is getting up there in levels, one of the things that's made me dread starting pvp is the feeling that even if I have a good understanding of my class, I'll get messed up by people who have the advantage of playing longer than I have, and will never be at the same level. I'll always feel like I'm behind no matter what, like I'm some sort of scrub for not having played since launch.

It really sucks that new players feel like that

PF1901

Would be a shame seeing non-vet going down the drain because of CP.
Thanks to the op for taking the time to prove what more than just a handful of people are fearing.

Keep CP out of non-vet!

SturgeHammer

This type of issue has always been present in non-vet. Anybody with access to a decent crafter or stock pile of gold to purchase potions, food, and less common items sets will still have an advantage with or without CP. Fortunately, the natural ebb and flow of BWB will level out the players taking advantage of such things Very Quickly. Sure they'll just rejoin, but having reroll and come back few skill points is a major hindrance, even with boat load of CPs.

CPs should be removed in non-vet because it is something inherently unobtainable to new players, but don't expect that change alone to make much of a difference. Players with access to better resources will always have an advantage in Non-Vet pvp, and that advantage predates the Champion System and will persist after it is disabled.

Woman

PF1901 wrote: »

Keep CP out of non-vet!

Here here! I just really wanted to say something. =D

Hiero_Glyph

I completely agree with the OP but sadly this will only solve a small portion the CP discrepancy. A non-CP server for both non-vet and vet sounds great. The irony would be gaining CP while you played but with a cap of 3,600 it is a necessary evil.

ZOS_BrianWheeler

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

PF1901

Woman wrote: »

PF1901 wrote: »

Keep CP out of non-vet!

Here here! I just really wanted to say something. =D

OK, ok. I'll stick to just the agree button next time

Woman

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

If that were to happen, I'd be actually happy to PVP in Vet again! I still think a campaign dedicated to Non-Vet with no CP is important though.

Thank you so much for paying attention to this post @ZOS_BrianWheeler, it's really good to know that ZOS is listening.

Darlgon

Woman wrote: »

Well thought out plea

Somehow, "I agree" does not seem to be enough. However, since this has been a concern since the Champion System was implemented, I doubt even Rich's /lurk will mean any changes. Sorry.

dlepi24

I agree. When I took my PC toons to console the difference was astounding. I had a few ~45 leveled characters that I took into BwB and was literally unstoppable. The sad thing is I only had roughly 80 CP's because on PC I literally spent 90% of my time on BwB and fell behind on CP's because of it. If not, I would easily be up in 200 mark and the difference would be even greater. Obviously, I took advantage of console players having no idea what they were doing but when a light armor sorc can tank 20+ dudes and not use sword n' board and survive just fine it's a problem. I felt so disgusted that I went and leveled up a new DK tank and at level 20 I could tank a zerg and manage resources just fine and have one guy shoot fire ballistas at them and wipe everyone. I enjoy that all my characters can take advantage of CP's but when it comes to non-vet PvP I think they should be removed. Like @Woman said, BwB is the purest form of ESO PvP we have. You can make some really fun and unique builds that you can't in vet campaigns and it's a blast. CP's are already ruining it and the problem with CP's means it's only going to get worse.

Paradox

Darlgon wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

Well thought out plea

Somehow, "I agree" does not seem to be enough. However, since this has been a concern since the Champion System was implemented, I doubt even Rich's /lurk will mean any changes. Sorry.

When both Rich and Brian post, with the latter really asking for suggestions... I think they're paying attention. Everyone gives them ***, but this proves that they're listening to us. What they choose to do with it is beyond us right now, but I hope we can see some meaningful alterations to Blackwater Blade.

On top of just Blackwater Blade, I REALLY love the idea of a CP-free Vet/Non-vet campaign. I think that would REALLY get some SERIOUS attention, as a lot of players are up in arms about CP in general. I think it could make a real change to the balance among the PvP campaigns.

SturgeHammer

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

I actually don't think I would mind BWB being completely replaced by a campaign that is completely 'flat'. No CPs and everyone, Vets included, are scaled up or down to the battle leveling stats.