CP Debate: Some people apparently need a power advantage to compensate for lack of skill

spoqster

It's really sad to see that this forum seems to be full of people who believe that a time investment warrants a reward by itself. And these people often insult "casuals" for wanting to be competitive without being forced to grind as superficial "I want everything now"-players who are not willing to work for their achievements. This misguided interpretation is essentially at the heart of the whole CP debate.

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

But grinding will let you improve your skill, so that when you are better you will be able to beat content and other players who you were not able to beat before. So even without a CS you can still go grinding and it might actually make you a better player.

No one has ever won an NBA Championship by just investing time. Yes, you need to invest a lot of time to be good enough to play in the NBA, but you will not get a job in the NBA simply for hanging out at the court for 10 hours every day shooting hoops, while other people go to work. You actually need to use this time to get really good at basketball to play in the NBA.

A multiplayer game should not have a vertical progression system that rewards people who have more time to play. Instead it should have a horizontal progression system that opens up an infinite path to finding the perfect build for your playstyle - allowing you to grow in power by getting better at playing the game.

This game mechanic is at the heart of all popular games. Baseball would NOT be a popular sport if you would get a more powerful electronic bat for every week you hang out at the training ground (which would make you a better player regardless of your skill).

Now, can we please leave 2005 behind us, forget about all the antiquated themepark/treadmill/vertical progression mechanics, and together think about how we can turn this online Elder Scrolls game into a game that all players (old and new) will enjoy for years to come?

MrGhosty

While the analogies are a tad over the top, I completely agree about the CP. We need horizontal progression that allows for more build diversity and specialization. These new progressions can make the players slightly more powerful to give them the "shine" players want, but not so powerful that someone starting out doesn't stand the chance.

One can only assume the players who are against it want the advantage over players that they have but most of the talented and truly scary players to come up against seem to be for the idea and in fact warned everyone of this. I admit I foolishly thought that ZOS' statement about diminishing returns would be accurate but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Additionally, horizontal progression would be much more entertaining as the options could allow for more unique builds, hybrid builds, tanks or other support roles, you could have some more PvP centric options. There would be a lot of options that wouldn't make players gods among men but they would have the advantage that when coupled with the skill of playing the game to earn this would make them a force to be reckoned with for sure.

Rook_Master

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

sadownik

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

Rook_Master

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

I joke about it because it helps me deal with the fact that the stratification of players into the CP have and have-nots is one of the things that could potentially ruin this game.

sadownik

Rook_Master wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

I joke about it because it helps me deal with the fact that the stratification of players into the CP have and have-nots is one of the things that could potentially ruin this game.

Well there are 2 choces now for Z. Let it rot, or cut it deep.

danno8

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

And here's another problem. I am actually fairly confident ZoS will recognize the problem of perfect linear perpetual progression and make changes accordingly. But OMG can you imagine the huge amount of "What! I spent months of my life grinding CP's and now you are just [giving them away / capping them / applying DR / whatever fix]!!!!!

Sooner the better ZoS!

TheBull

spoqster wrote: »

It's really sad to see that this forum seems to be full of people who believe that a time investment warrants a reward by itself. And these people often insult "casuals" for wanting to be competitive without being forced to grind as superficial "I want everything now"-players who are not willing to work for their achievements. This misguided interpretation is essentially at the heart of the whole CP debate.

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

I got my CP by grinding people. You could be spending your time doing the same instead of making forum threads.

This may come as a shock to you but the people who were good before CP are still good now.

Cuyler

Sooooo with that give CP only for completing vDSA, SO, AA and HRC Hard modes. Problem solved must have skill to gain CP. I could then bath in the tears of casuals to keep me young again.

Seriously though there are two sides to this coin, hyperbole in one direction or the other of the argument is not constructive.

helbjorn

So a skill gap is ok, but a CP or "time invested" gap is not? Who argues against either is obvious. Skill should be an important factor in all forms of competition; there will always be someone(s) who is better than most. Time invested does not always equal increased or improved skill for everyone. There are skill caps just as there are "time I have to invest" caps. There has to be a compromise between natural or acquired skill and reward or improvement based on time invested. This game seems to do a reasonable job of compromising, it seems that the most vocal are those who consider themselves "skilled" who don't want any competition whatsoever from those who have more time to grind in game. Too much attention by developers to either extreme will result in a loss of newer players who have no means of establishing a foothold.

sadownik

danno8 wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

And here's another problem. I am actually fairly confident ZoS will recognize the problem of perfect linear perpetual progression and make changes accordingly. But OMG can you imagine the huge amount of "What! I spent months of my life grinding CP's and now you are just [giving them away / capping them / applying DR / whatever fix]!!!!!

Sooner the better ZoS!

Aye, and also thats why with every vet rank added, removing them seems less and less propable - can you imagine the rage?

sadownik

helbjorn wrote: »

So a skill gap is ok, but a CP or "time invested" gap is not? Who argues against either is obvious. Skill should be an important factor in all forms of competition; there will always be someone(s) who is better than most. Time invested does not always equal increased or improved skill for everyone. There are skill caps just as there are "time I have to invest" caps. There has to be a compromise between natural or acquired skill and reward or improvement based on time invested. This game seems to do a reasonable job of compromising, it seems that the most vocal are those who consider themselves "skilled" who don't want any competition whatsoever from those who have more time to grind in game. Too much attention by developers to either extreme will result in a loss of newer players who have no means of establishing a foothold.

So you are saying you already reached the goal? Good for you.

Sausage

Take it like you want but CP did alot good to ESO. People actually play now and not idling in Craglorn and twiddling thumbs. I bet if they start to give CP-boosters as rewards, people do anything they want. Green, blue, purple, legendary CP-boosters, as random reward, you never know what you get.

sadownik

Sausage wrote: »

Take it like you want but CP did alot good to ESO. People actually play now and not idling in Craglorn and twiddling thumbs.

Run around grinding spots? Yes the indeed do.

Well ok its not fair. Some run in Cyr not only to grind, but also to have fun, but i saw a train of players with motto 300 cp or gtfo - let me tell you they were glorious, glorious.

helbjorn

sadownik wrote: »

So you are saying you already reached the goal? Good for you.

My highest level character is 22, so I have no CP points (and may not ever). I'm simply applying general logic to a common MMORPG problem. Do I have to be VR14 to have an opinion? Must you reinstall the game to have yours?

Sausage

sadownik wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Take it like you want but CP did alot good to ESO. People actually play now and not idling in Craglorn and twiddling thumbs.

Run around grinding spots? Yes the indeed do.

Well ok its not fair. Some run in Cyr not only to grind, but also to have fun, but i saw a train of players with motto 300 cp or gtfo - let me tell you they were glorious, glorious.

Thats why we need CP-booster rewards, so people actually do vet Dungeons, Craglorn quests, Trials.

And speaking of those 300 CP or GTFO, thats why we need catch.up system, start to sell those 500% boosters for new and casual already.

Woeler

spoqster wrote: »

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

First of al: No. Second of all: I guess you have never played an MMO untill endgame. Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's.

Also, the title of this topic is completely wrong. With our without championpoints you can do excellent PvP and Raid. If you can't, don't blame it on CP, because it's not a lack of CP that makes bad raids, it's bad players that make bad raids.

spoqster

helbjorn wrote: »

So a skill gap is ok, but a CP or "time invested" gap is not? Who argues against either is obvious. Skill should be an important factor in all forms of competition; there will always be someone(s) who is better than most. Time invested does not always equal increased or improved skill for everyone. There are skill caps just as there are "time I have to invest" caps. There has to be a compromise between natural or acquired skill and reward or improvement based on time invested. This game seems to do a reasonable job of compromising, it seems that the most vocal are those who consider themselves "skilled" who don't want any competition whatsoever from those who have more time to grind in game. Too much attention by developers to either extreme will result in a loss of newer players who have no means of establishing a foothold.

I strongly disagree.

The skill gap is a real thing. It exists everywhere in real life. The time-invested gap is an invention by computer game companies. It is artificial crap.

I can make a very clear and concise argument:
If a game has both a skill and a time-invested gap, then players who have both the skill and the time are rewarded exponentially, to a point where they become unbeatable.

It's like giving Lebron James shoes that will make him run faster and jump higher.

danno8

spoqster wrote: »

helbjorn wrote: »

So a skill gap is ok, but a CP or "time invested" gap is not? Who argues against either is obvious. Skill should be an important factor in all forms of competition; there will always be someone(s) who is better than most. Time invested does not always equal increased or improved skill for everyone. There are skill caps just as there are "time I have to invest" caps. There has to be a compromise between natural or acquired skill and reward or improvement based on time invested. This game seems to do a reasonable job of compromising, it seems that the most vocal are those who consider themselves "skilled" who don't want any competition whatsoever from those who have more time to grind in game. Too much attention by developers to either extreme will result in a loss of newer players who have no means of establishing a foothold.

I strongly disagree.

The skill gap is a real thing. It exists everywhere in real life. The time-invested gap is an invention by computer game companies. It is artificial crap.

I can make a very clear and concise argument:
If a game has both a skill and a time-invested gap, then players who have both the skill and the time are rewarded exponentially, to a point where they become unbeatable.

It's like giving Lebron James shoes that will make him run faster and jump higher.

With the 10 threads on the same topic that have popped up this morning I have come to 1 final conclusion.

Many people are simply unable to extrapolate future problems from current events. Unable to envision practical problems that will arise 1, 2 years down the road and fail to predict human behavior when they are confronted with seemingly insurmountable goals.

I guess that's 3 conclusions, actually.

spoqster

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

First of al: No. Second of all: I guess you have never played an MMO untill endgame. Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's.

Also, the title of this topic is completely wrong. With our without championpoints you can do excellent PvP and Raid. If you can't, don't blame it on CP, because it's not a lack of CP that makes bad raids, it's bad players that make bad raids.

People like you really get me fired up.

What kind of argument is that: "Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's."? So before cars horse have always been the primary means of transportation. Then somebody invented the car. Now the car is better until someone figures out something else.

I can only assume that you are not terribly creative.

Grinding has been a part of MMOs because no MMO game designer has had a better idea yet, or has not had the balls to implement it. But I have ideas, and I bet implementing my suggestions will make the game a lot more popular and successful. But you know what? They aren't even my ideas. I just pieced together the most fitting and successful ideas from around the gaming cosmos.


And to make this perfectly clear, I am not complaining because I personally feel weak in PVE or PVP, I am complaining because the system is flawed. I am not motivated by personal experience, I am motivated by the intellectual challenge to rid the world of this vertical progression BS.

Faulgor

spoqster wrote: »

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

I'm so sick of this grinding-bashing everywhere. If anything this game needs more grinding spots because the few viable ones are hopelessly overrun, and every spot rewards the same character build. The upcoming 100% boost to public dungeons is not even remotely enough.

And even if I would agree that grinding requires no skill or investment in careful character-planning: That's the fault of the game, not grinding itself! People have been asking for challenging (solo) PvE content since release.

Further, power rewards are not tied to this ominous "skill", at all. Crafting requires so little skill you could do it with a mobile minigame, yet it rewards some of the best gear in the whole game.

DenMoria

From the differences in opinions that I have seen on a number of these type of threads today, I have come to the conclusion that ESO on console may be doomed.

Maintaining a diverse and vibrant community may simply not be possible.

I get the impression that most console players are what you would consider casual players and will never have the time to do the grinding and farming necessary to reach the stratospheric levels that some folks are noting. I could be wrong, but, everyone I know plays the game for fun and, frankly, isn't really participating in the MMO part of ESO at all, even after all these months.

One of the issues I see noted is that the community will stratify. I don't think there is any way to avoid that.

Most of us will play the game and just play it while a fraction will max out everything and make amazing characters that are of godlike power. Those with incredibly high levels, CP and V statuses will form a clique, and each of the veteran classes will form their own clique's (at the moment they seem to consist mostly of guilds) and folks with no desire to participate in those cliques or be ultra-competitive in the PvP environment will eventually drop out (sorry - that's the majority of players). That will mean a drop in subscription payments for the company and a drop in overall player numbers and that will lead to a slowdown of content releases, etc...

IMHO I just don't think that ESO can have the shelf-life of WoW. Look how many players have left for Witcher and continue to go back to Skyrim, Oblivion or even Dragon Age or Dragon's Dogma.

I keep plugging away, but I will never break in to the guilds. I have no interest in "bidding" for items that I can collect myself; in maxing out everything; in putting myself in to no-win situations with OP other players; and on and on on.

I am proudly a casual player and am enjoying myself immensely and would hate to see this turn in to something that is not accessible to everyone, but, IMO it just seems to be going that way. I'm terrified to even go to Cyrodil, have no clue how the V ranks and CP ranks even work (and, frankly, without trolling the internet and spending hours reading fluff, there doesn't seem to be a way to actually figure it out). I don't want to be competing and killing other players. I don't want to arbitrarily get killed by other players (and, yes, there are some incredibly violent ones out there that try to kill me all the time anyhow and cause huge fights in the middle of cities for no reason). And I don't have the patience to spend endless hours on administration figuring out every possible permutation of crafting and maximizing gear and potions and enchanting, etc...

Just from personal experience, in my group of 400 or so PSN friends, there are about 6 that are still playing ESO out of an initial 100 or so, and even they don't play on a regular basis any more (it's only been 3 weeks!).

Now that I'm done complaining: Can anybody tell me how that stupid shortcut wheel works? Even when I put healing potions on it, I can't use them or don't know how. I still need to go to inventory and use them there!

Thanks! Sorry to rant.

Acrolas

I get the feeling a lot of people would be okay with CP in a single player game, because they could pause the game for a year and jump right back in to the grind where they left out. It's the fact that you have to compete with other people that's the rub.

Nobody likes feeling left out. But you can't do everything.

If a multiplayer game is stressing you out, play a single player game. There are so many good ones out there that it's really not fair to expect a multiplayer game to bend to your personal schedule. Multiplayer games reward people who spend more time in them in a different way than single player games do. That's just the economy of a game that only gets a few hours of sleep a week.

Accept what you can do with your busy schedule, rather than blaming others for what you can't fit in.

DaveMoeDee

This is an RPG. You are using a virtual character. There is nothing wrong with character development giving you advantages. If you don't like that, play a MOBA. Play Counterstrike.

This is not to say that CP was good design. It is just pointing out that saying skill should be all that matters is nonsense. Developing your avatar is also a very reasonable design approach.

The bad analogy of a basketball team ignores that fact that teams train to get better. They even make trades to replace players. We even have management sims where you don't even play actual sports matches -- you just adjust rosters and due the meta-gaming. There are so many levels where games can choose to engage players.

As a non-competitive player, who doesn't care who is better than me, I am fine with CP. Still, unlike the OP, I can appreciate the perspectives of other people. I can see how CP is a treadmill PvP-focused or leaderboard-focused players are forced to run for 2 or so years when they would like to be concentrating on endgame activities like PvP or PvE leaderboards.

Those people who feel there is no justification for CP or more VR levels should understand that there are many people who care more about progress in character development than they do about competitiveness or being better than anyone else. Things aren't black and white.

Grinding is a part of MMOs because certain players choose to grind. Players choose to grind because they are focused on an end goal instead of on enjoying the game, and because people will always find ways to subvert a system. It is true that having less horizontal progression would decrease the competitive benefit of grinding, I prefer to have character development over stopping people from accumulating competitive benefits from working hard in a game.

Memnoch_Devil

I don't mean to come across as brash or insensitive but to see people complain about things that are available to everyone is just crazy. I was just reading how some guy said baseball would be bad if one guy had a special bat ect ect a bunch on nonsense to follow. Eventually after his page rant , all I concluded was that he is a cry baby. Everyone has the same stuff just put the time and and be even or just stop playing it is that simple.

Woeler

spoqster wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

First of al: No. Second of all: I guess you have never played an MMO untill endgame. Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's.

Also, the title of this topic is completely wrong. With our without championpoints you can do excellent PvP and Raid. If you can't, don't blame it on CP, because it's not a lack of CP that makes bad raids, it's bad players that make bad raids.

People like you really get me fired up.

What kind of argument is that: "Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's."? So before cars horse have always been the primary means of transportation. Then somebody invented the car. Now the car is better until someone figures out something else.

I can only assume that you are not terribly creative.

That's not an argument, that's an observation.

Ok, let me explain how this works. Killing mobs gives xp, it has always done this, in every mmo. Quests also give xp, but quests require you to actively move around, often over long distances. The simple fact that killing mobs gives xp makes grinding possible. It is not something that was implemented on purpose, like you see it. It is a side effect.

I want to have a V14 of each class, I do not want to do all those quests over and over again taking me days and weeks and months, no, I just want to play endgame with multiple characters.

There is no "better alternative" like your (flawed) cars analogy, because grinding is not something that is implemented on purpose. It's not a designed mechanic. People play to progress their character, you can't just nerf all progression untill the guy that can play 1 evening a week is happy about it. you play, you get stronger, that seems pretty logical to me. If people who can play once a week expect they can be in the top of players find that their expectation is an illusion, I'd say it's not the game that is failing, it's the expectation!

There are numerous people on this forum who blame CP grinding for them not getting to the top of the leaderboards, which is absolutely the most silly argument ever.

Good players will always be good players, with or without CP. With or without grinding.

And don't get me wrong, I really want to see a machanic that lets me level fast and have fun at the same time, but that would break questing all together.

sadownik

Memnoch_Devil wrote: »

I don't mean to come across as brash or insensitive but to see people complain about things that are available to everyone is just crazy. I was just reading how some guy said baseball would be bad if one guy had a special bat ect ect a bunch on nonsense to follow. Eventually after his page rant , all I concluded was that he is a cry baby. Everyone has the same stuff just put the time and and be even or just stop playing it is that simple.

Agreed, and since many, me included, dont like the idea of putting time in mindless grind for hours, we do indeed quit.

Nestor

Acrolas wrote: »

I get the feeling a lot of people would be okay with CP in a single player game, because they could pause the game for a year and jump right back in to the grind where they left out. It's the fact that you have to compete with other people that's the rub.

Those people are not here posting about the issues of CP because those issues will never affect them. If you don't do PvP and or Trials for Leaderboard positions (as opposed to just running them for the fun and experience of doing it) then how many CPs another player has does not matter much, if at all. It might matter to those doing End Level Gold Pledges, but that is debatable if CPs are needed to be successful at those instances. They can help, but are they needed?

Question is, of a percentage, how many players, not forum posters, are mostly or exclusively Solo or PvE 4 Person Group?

Tolmos

Woeler wrote: »

That's not an argument, that's an observation.

It's unfortunate that it's true. In MMOs, stats == skill. When someone says "This person is more skilled", they actually mean "This person has more stats and likely more free time". Actual player skill is usually non-existent.

ESO, I guess, is no different.

Acrolas

Nestor wrote: »

It might matter to those doing End Level Gold Pledges, but that is debatable if CPs are needed to be successful at those instances. They can help, but are they needed?

Teamwork matters. Group voice chat is probably more beneficial than CP, because better communication makes for better teams.

I'd rather play solo than have a team full of special snowflakes. Which, rather ironically, are turning out to be the ones with fewer, not more, CP.

parpin

could not agree more..op is right.
game=entertainment=fun
grinding is not fun and many people can not do it even if they have the time..it is terribly boring thing to do..why zos rewarding people who can do such thing?? well it is beyond me.