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Why is everyone going nuts about CP?
guangui
✭✭
Do people really hate getting beat up in PvP that much that they come up with all these complicated ideas to fix CP system?
Easy fix would be to disable CP's from PvP and make em PvE exclusives. That way all these "This game isnt about skills its about outgrinding" would feel better.
Seriously. Why hasn't this been discussed? Just disable them from PvP to make it fair for everyone. If you really need all your CP to win in a battle then that's a shame. I read a post about making it a battle of skill. Well what better way than to disable them in PvP? No way complains about being carried in PvE by a 2000+ CP player but they do complain about being beat in a battle.
This would be the simplest solution instead of all these complicated ideas or "Catch up" Mechanics people want.
Easy fix would be to disable CP's from PvP and make em PvE exclusives. That way all these "This game isnt about skills its about outgrinding" would feel better.
Seriously. Why hasn't this been discussed? Just disable them from PvP to make it fair for everyone. If you really need all your CP to win in a battle then that's a shame. I read a post about making it a battle of skill. Well what better way than to disable them in PvP? No way complains about being carried in PvE by a 2000+ CP player but they do complain about being beat in a battle.
This would be the simplest solution instead of all these complicated ideas or "Catch up" Mechanics people want.
4
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Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭CP was Zen's idea, not the community, some trolls even said this game die to CP, CP is basically endless grind and it helped this game alot, I remember Craglorn was empty but when CR was introduced, people started to do DSA and other stuff. Progression is big part of MMORPG, or online games like ESO, unless you have high population so so catch-up system.Edited by Sausage on July 7, 2015 1:51PM3 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭I proposed this way back before the CS was released: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v13 -
guangui✭✭I proposed this way back before the CS was released: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v1
This is great. Why arent more people going for this and instead trying to change to whole CP system?1 -
Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!1 -
Storm_knight22✭✭✭✭The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.Edited by Storm_knight22 on July 7, 2015 2:00PMI want spell crafting.9
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guangui✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!
That's not entirely true.
They'll release new content. New content exceeding the difficulty of the previous one. Anyone who was running the hardest content before the new one release can run the new one. Anyone who wasn't able to run to hardest content before the new one would not be able to run the new one.
You'd have to work you're way up to the hardest content. I remember when I couldn't finish Serenes Web because me and my team were weak but a few weeks later we gain some points and level and were able to finish it. I'm working my way up like any new player should. By the time i work my way up to the harder content i'll have a nice sum of points. And if content proves too difficult, i'll gain some more from do-able content.
Working my way up2 -
ragespell✭✭✭Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.
"The filthy casuals" are the majority. They are the ones who buy cosmetic items.
In the end they pay the bills.13 -
P3ZZL3✭✭✭✭✭
✭One way might be to scale the content based on the CP's owned by the individual account.CP561 Redguard | Jabsy Templar | Stamina Build
CP561 Breton | Jesus Beam Templar | Magicka Build Forever!
CP561 Naked Nord | Tanky DK | Stamigicka Build
✭✭✭ Check ESO Server Status Live!: http://eso.webhub.eu/ ✭✭✭2 -
Sithisvoid✭✭✭✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!
If it's too easy for you simply respec your champ points and don't spend them. Hokus Pokus2 -
Syntse✭✭✭✭✭Would not be bad idea... PvP buffs disabled in PvE and PvE buffs (CP) disabled in PvP.Syntse Dominion Khajiit Dragonknight Stamina Tank [50]
Ra'Syntse Dominion Khajiit Nightblade Magica DPS [50]
Syntselle Dominion Dark Elf Dragonknight Magica DPS [50]
Syntseus Dominion Imperial Templar Healer [50]
Syntsetar Dominion High Elf Sorcerer Magica DPS [50]
Friar Tuktuk Daggerfall Brenton Templar Healer [50]
Syntseyn Ebonheart Brenton Nightblade Magica DPS [50]1 -
ragespell✭✭✭Sithisvoid wrote: »Cherryblossom wrote: »it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!
If it's too easy for you simply respec your champ points and don't spend them. Hokus Pokus
Do you really think a mmorpg can survive on the long run with a system like CS?!
I really can't understand how you people can't see how stupid this system is.
Why do you think no other software house has implemented something like this in a mmorpg?3 -
delphwind_ESO✭✭✭Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.
I am a filthy casual, and I love the CP system.
I do not have the time to spend getting my personal skills to a level in which I can compete with those that are really REALLY good at the game. CPs give me the option to grind for a few days/weeks and be at least somewhat competitive in PvP.
I believe CPs are FOR THE CASUALS, as another way to become powerful enough to tackle the really talented players, or be competitive in PvE groups and raids.
I however think the CP system in it's current state may be too powerful. I look forward to seeing how it is altered in the future when the VR's are removed.0 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭I proposed this way back before the CS was released: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v1
This is great. Why arent more people going for this and instead trying to change to whole CP system?
From reading the forums, I get the idea that most people on here are stuck in the mind set of 2005. I can't even recall how often I read "It's an MMO, and MMOs always have a grind." The vast majority of the people on this forum don't have the far-sightedness to imagine an MMO without vertical progression because they are used to what they are used to.
The truth is, however, that ESO is an Elder Scrolls game first and an MMO second. I have never played an MMO before I played ESO, so I have the luxury to see typical MMO mechanics for what they really are: Giant un-creative time wasters. Now I am all for wasting my time with challenging content, such as well-balanced and complex PVP, Game of Thrones quality quest content and challenging PVE content - but I will never grind to be competitive or enjoy far too easy content and predictable quests with fetch mechanics.
All vertical progression mechanics are fundamentally flawed, as they reward players with a false sense of achievement, and as soon as the end is reached, the motivation deflates into boredom. The recipe to create a game that can be played indefinitely, is to create well-balanced game mechanics and spice it up with a horizontal progression system and add as little vertical progression as possible. Among the best examples are Counter Strike and Fifa. I will keep playing Fifa all my life, while I know that I will grow bored of ESO sooner than later. And that is simply because of the underlying mechanics.
There are so many more great examples out there, especially all the new sandbox games, and ZOS ultimately fails to realize that we have 2015 and nobody wants this themepark/treadmill MMO crap anymore, especially the vocal few on the forums who are stuck in 2005.
It makes me really sad, because ESO is special, because of the ES universe, the fantastic atmosphere the art style generates and the brilliant responsive combat mechanics. In terms of these last mentioned aspects ESO is by far the best MMO out there and has the potential to be one of the most successful games of all time. But Matt Firror fails to realize that the choice to stick to decade old mechanics - which were never good to begin with - is killing all of ESO's potential.6 -
guangui✭✭delphwind_ESO wrote: »Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.
I am a filthy casual, and I love the CP system.
I do not have the time to spend getting my personal skills to a level in which I can compete with those that are really REALLY good at the game. CPs give me the option to grind for a few days/weeks and be at least somewhat competitive in PvP.
I believe CPs are FOR THE CASUALS, as another way to become powerful enough to tackle the really talented players, or be competitive in PvE groups and raids.
I however think the CP system in it's current state may be too powerful. I look forward to seeing how it is altered in the future when the VR's are removed.
This isnt right. Hmm it can't be for the casuals because the hardcore people have tons of them and the casuals have very little. You don't think removing them from PvP would make YOU competitive ? You really think that gaining a few will still give you a chance against someone with 2000+ ? I'm curious to see your reasoning.
Like Deltia said. It doesnt matter how much talent you have if the mathematical difference between the points are drastic. The only way you'd tackle a talented player fair would be if no one had the points in PvP. At least that's what makes most sense to me.
All these people who believe the are so good might no be so good if everyone was on fair grounds in PvP hahah.2 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!
That's not entirely true.
They'll release new content. New content exceeding the difficulty of the previous one. Anyone who was running the hardest content before the new one release can run the new one. Anyone who wasn't able to run to hardest content before the new one would not be able to run the new one.
You'd have to work you're way up to the hardest content. I remember when I couldn't finish Serenes Web because me and my team were weak but a few weeks later we gain some points and level and were able to finish it. I'm working my way up like any new player should. By the time i work my way up to the harder content i'll have a nice sum of points. And if content proves too difficult, i'll gain some more from do-able content.
Working my way up
Check out this comment http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1989961/#Comment_1989961, where I outline a progression that can do without verticality even in PVE. In truth, the whole idea of making your character and the environment stronger at the same time is totally idiotic. Think about it for a second. You don't get any real progression out of it, except for an illusion of power, and that low quality pleasure of being able to go back to one-shoot lower level mobs. But that is not the same sense of achievement that you get from being able to kill mobs quicker because you got better at executing your skills.
All this progression does is it linearizes exploration, because this way you have to do it in a certain order to match the content with your level. Essentially ZOS spent all this work on creating a huge and beautiful world that they sell as an open world, but the mechanics puts players on a leash and forces them on specific path. They are destroying the beautiful experience they worked so hard to create. It's absolutely idiotic.
Just give us an open world where all mobs are the same level (except for a few stronger ones - a troll should ALWAYS be stronger than a skeever, meeting a lvl 50 skeever that is much harder to kill than a lvl 25 troll is just ridiculous), and provide variety through good content and by giving us more and more skills to choose from, so that the progression will consist of trying out more and more ways to kill the monsters and finding the perfect playstyle for yourself.3 -
Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭Everyone is "going nuts" because the stratification between no-life grinders and the rest of us is becoming apparent.
Please read Deltia's post for further clarification.
People were warning ZoS about the extreme grind that would separate players and enough time has finally elapsed that it is a reality.7 -
guangui✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!
That's not entirely true.
They'll release new content. New content exceeding the difficulty of the previous one. Anyone who was running the hardest content before the new one release can run the new one. Anyone who wasn't able to run to hardest content before the new one would not be able to run the new one.
You'd have to work you're way up to the hardest content. I remember when I couldn't finish Serenes Web because me and my team were weak but a few weeks later we gain some points and level and were able to finish it. I'm working my way up like any new player should. By the time i work my way up to the harder content i'll have a nice sum of points. And if content proves too difficult, i'll gain some more from do-able content.
Working my way up
Check out this comment http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1989961/#Comment_1989961, where I outline a progression that can do without verticality even in PVE. In truth, the whole idea of making your character and the environment stronger at the same time is totally idiotic. Think about it for a second. You don't get any real progression out of it, except for an illusion of power, and that low quality pleasure of being able to go back to one-shoot lower level mobs. But that is not the same sense of achievement that you get from being able to kill mobs quicker because you got better at executing your skills.
All this progression does is it linearizes exploration, because this way you have to do it in a certain order to match the content with your level. Essentially ZOS spent all this work on creating a huge and beautiful world that they sell as an open world, but the mechanics puts players on a leash and forces them on specific path. They are destroying the beautiful experience they worked so hard to create. It's absolutely idiotic.
Just give us an open world where all mobs are the same level (except for a few stronger ones - a troll should ALWAYS be stronger than a skeever, meeting a lvl 50 skeever that is much harder to kill than a lvl 25 troll is just ridiculous), and provide variety through good content and by giving us more and more skills to choose from, so that the progression will consist of trying out more and more ways to kill the monsters and finding the perfect playstyle for yourself.
This is what I'm talking about! You make perfect sense and it's what im trying to tell people but they don't want to listen lol.
That's exactly right for those who say "Scale it". False sense of power!
We need more people with common sense and critical thinking power.0 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!
That's not entirely true.
They'll release new content. New content exceeding the difficulty of the previous one. Anyone who was running the hardest content before the new one release can run the new one. Anyone who wasn't able to run to hardest content before the new one would not be able to run the new one.
You'd have to work you're way up to the hardest content. I remember when I couldn't finish Serenes Web because me and my team were weak but a few weeks later we gain some points and level and were able to finish it. I'm working my way up like any new player should. By the time i work my way up to the harder content i'll have a nice sum of points. And if content proves too difficult, i'll gain some more from do-able content.
Working my way up
Check out this comment http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1989961/#Comment_1989961, where I outline a progression that can do without verticality even in PVE. In truth, the whole idea of making your character and the environment stronger at the same time is totally idiotic. Think about it for a second. You don't get any real progression out of it, except for an illusion of power, and that low quality pleasure of being able to go back to one-shoot lower level mobs. But that is not the same sense of achievement that you get from being able to kill mobs quicker because you got better at executing your skills.
All this progression does is it linearizes exploration, because this way you have to do it in a certain order to match the content with your level. Essentially ZOS spent all this work on creating a huge and beautiful world that they sell as an open world, but the mechanics puts players on a leash and forces them on specific path. They are destroying the beautiful experience they worked so hard to create. It's absolutely idiotic.
Just give us an open world where all mobs are the same level (except for a few stronger ones - a troll should ALWAYS be stronger than a skeever, meeting a lvl 50 skeever that is much harder to kill than a lvl 25 troll is just ridiculous), and provide variety through good content and by giving us more and more skills to choose from, so that the progression will consist of trying out more and more ways to kill the monsters and finding the perfect playstyle for yourself.
This is what I'm talking about! You make perfect sense and it's what im trying to tell people but they don't want to listen lol.
That's exactly right for those who say "Scale it". False sense of power!
We need more people with common sense and critical thinking power.
Yes, but we need them at ZOS. :-(1 -
guangui✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »Everyone is "going nuts" because the stratification between no-life grinders and the rest of us is becoming apparent.
Please read Deltia's post for further clarification.
People were warning ZoS about the extreme grind that would separate players and enough time has finally elapsed that it is a reality.
I read it of course and also read many comments following it. Deltia makes sense and i agree with him.
He also wants fairness and equality. To able to outskill someone. Not out grind. Which is why i believe disabling points in PvP would be for the greater good.2 -
guangui✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!
That's not entirely true.
They'll release new content. New content exceeding the difficulty of the previous one. Anyone who was running the hardest content before the new one release can run the new one. Anyone who wasn't able to run to hardest content before the new one would not be able to run the new one.
You'd have to work you're way up to the hardest content. I remember when I couldn't finish Serenes Web because me and my team were weak but a few weeks later we gain some points and level and were able to finish it. I'm working my way up like any new player should. By the time i work my way up to the harder content i'll have a nice sum of points. And if content proves too difficult, i'll gain some more from do-able content.
Working my way up
Check out this comment http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1989961/#Comment_1989961, where I outline a progression that can do without verticality even in PVE. In truth, the whole idea of making your character and the environment stronger at the same time is totally idiotic. Think about it for a second. You don't get any real progression out of it, except for an illusion of power, and that low quality pleasure of being able to go back to one-shoot lower level mobs. But that is not the same sense of achievement that you get from being able to kill mobs quicker because you got better at executing your skills.
All this progression does is it linearizes exploration, because this way you have to do it in a certain order to match the content with your level. Essentially ZOS spent all this work on creating a huge and beautiful world that they sell as an open world, but the mechanics puts players on a leash and forces them on specific path. They are destroying the beautiful experience they worked so hard to create. It's absolutely idiotic.
Just give us an open world where all mobs are the same level (except for a few stronger ones - a troll should ALWAYS be stronger than a skeever, meeting a lvl 50 skeever that is much harder to kill than a lvl 25 troll is just ridiculous), and provide variety through good content and by giving us more and more skills to choose from, so that the progression will consist of trying out more and more ways to kill the monsters and finding the perfect playstyle for yourself.
This is what I'm talking about! You make perfect sense and it's what im trying to tell people but they don't want to listen lol.
That's exactly right for those who say "Scale it". False sense of power!
We need more people with common sense and critical thinking power.
Yes, but we need them at ZOS. :-(
Lol I'm sure they have them over there. Maybe there just not being taken seriously1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think people whining about eliminating progression mechanics because of pvp need to just go play CoD or something similar where everyone is the same except the guns they pick out. To me, it's part of an MMO to have some sort of "levels"-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC1 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭I think people whining about eliminating progression mechanics because of pvp need to just go play CoD or something similar where everyone is the same except the guns they pick out. To me, it's part of an MMO to have some sort of "levels"
Then you are exactly the type of person I am referring to in my first comment above. I bet you (and everyone else) would really love the progression system I am envisioning, you simply can't envision it yourself.0 -
Cuyler✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Except what you fail to mention is that in previous ES games where this was the meta all the content scaled to your player level. So as you got stronger the world around you matched it.Cherryblossom wrote: »it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!
That's not entirely true.
They'll release new content. New content exceeding the difficulty of the previous one. Anyone who was running the hardest content before the new one release can run the new one. Anyone who wasn't able to run to hardest content before the new one would not be able to run the new one.
You'd have to work you're way up to the hardest content. I remember when I couldn't finish Serenes Web because me and my team were weak but a few weeks later we gain some points and level and were able to finish it. I'm working my way up like any new player should. By the time i work my way up to the harder content i'll have a nice sum of points. And if content proves too difficult, i'll gain some more from do-able content.
Working my way up
Check out this comment http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1989961/#Comment_1989961, where I outline a progression that can do without verticality even in PVE. In truth, the whole idea of making your character and the environment stronger at the same time is totally idiotic. Think about it for a second. You don't get any real progression out of it, except for an illusion of power, and that low quality pleasure of being able to go back to one-shoot lower level mobs. But that is not the same sense of achievement that you get from being able to kill mobs quicker because you got better at executing your skills.
All this progression does is it linearizes exploration, because this way you have to do it in a certain order to match the content with your level. Essentially ZOS spent all this work on creating a huge and beautiful world that they sell as an open world, but the mechanics puts players on a leash and forces them on specific path. They are destroying the beautiful experience they worked so hard to create. It's absolutely idiotic.
Just give us an open world where all mobs are the same level (except for a few stronger ones - a troll should ALWAYS be stronger than a skeever, meeting a lvl 50 skeever that is much harder to kill than a lvl 25 troll is just ridiculous), and provide variety through good content and by giving us more and more skills to choose from, so that the progression will consist of trying out more and more ways to kill the monsters and finding the perfect playstyle for yourself.
If we had this purely open world that scaled at your player level the casuals would cry even more as they wouldn't be able to get past the first zone because they can't outlevel any content to make it easier. catch-22
Personally I agree with @guangui its an MMORPG and progression based. If you're not strong enough go back and work on your game. Git gud.....and come back to it later. This isn't the first game where this is the meta.
Edited by Cuyler on July 7, 2015 2:32PMGuild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
"How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I proposed this way back before the CS was released: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v1
I like that idea. Would have made veteran levels 0 issue for me as well as I could just play the single player content at my leisure and level up without a care while still being able to go to Cyrodiil and not be determined as fodder regardless of how well I play.0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.
the only problem with the champion system was the implementation of it. too many points too early and each point is such a small increment of change after the first buy it completely defeats any true builds to support a play style or role. they needed to really go the way of Alternate advancement more a kin to EQ2's early implementation of alternate advancement.there need to be Actives in the tress and not so much of just passive increments.0 -
bosmern_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭People that complain about them are bad at pvp and want to try and blame CP, because they're not the problem for being bad.~Thallen~2
