Champion Points and the Future of Non-Vet PvP

Mysfit · July 2015

How about limiting CPs to a certain amount in PvP? How are new players supposed to be encouraged to PvP if they are getting rekt by people with 500+ CPs in Cyrodiil?

Woman · July 2015

Considering that BWB has always been a special campaign (for reasons I stated above) even before Champion Points, I believe this would only create further issues (to get rid of a non vet campaign). If BWB was completely replaced by a "flat" campaign, it would be no different than vet PVP before CP which was obviously still very problematic.

Sigtric · July 2015

I think this would be a great option for one of the Vet campaigns.

Thank you (and everyone else at ZOS) for listening and considering!

TheMavShow · July 2015

There really is no reason for CP to even be in pvp. Especially when it takes away from having actual skill and the reason why we love the mechanics of the game! I say turn them off for pvp! Great Idea!!

Sigtric · July 2015

This is very true. The majority of CP is earned in PVE and it should probably just stay there.

I'll point back to my Vet Nightblade grinding zombies to make my lowbie nightblade stronger in PVP/Blackwater. That is a broken system. But I don't have to tell you that.

Dcaliber · July 2015

I 100% agree. I've had the most fun I EVER had in PvP in any video game/mmo in Xbox non-vet pvp. Everyone was equal and it was amazing. The second I hit VR1 and entered Cyrdoiil, I was destroyed and two shotted every time. For this exact reason I no longer play.

SturgeHammer · July 2015

The difference would be the battle leveling, scaling up non-vets and scaling down vets. It would be very different than vet Pvp before Cp because the scaling never applied to vets, in this flat campaign it apples to everyone.

Dcaliber · July 2015

I think this would be amazing so long as VR1's etc are scaled to VR14/16. Battle leveling is extremely important. Thanks for listening and replying. It means a lot knowing the devs are actually hearing us.

Vizier · July 2015

(facepalm) ZOS do you have any bleeping intention of being more than a leaf on the wind? It doesn't appear so.

You can't even begin to see the way to balancing out CP until you get the **** rid of VR. Just freaking do it already instead of wasting time creating crap to deal with "balance" that your just going to have to deal with again.

annoying. You almost never see them but of all the threads to see two of the top ZoS admins responding too is THIS ONE? WTH?

Paradox · July 2015

Talked with three friends who aren't forum guys and we all agree that the opportunity to have a totally battle-leveled Campaign with no-cp would be outstanding. We play BwB for a multitude of reasons, one of which being the even playing field -- one of the major reasons that people are coming here from Vet. While passives will still matter, I think seeing a 100% battle leveled Vet/Non-vet server would be great.

SturgeHammer · July 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Would this be something we could see in the next major update?

Sigtric · July 2015

I don't follow how removing VR will help fix the problem with CP. The problem will exist either way and whatever the fix is, isn't dependent on an arbitrary level or rank number.

Stikato · July 2015

What a wonderful post. I don't even think it is possible to argue with the premise. CP have absolutely no place in BwB. The campaign is purposely designed and limited by level range and battle leveling in order to provide a balanced PvP experience. CP completely contradicts the intent of this design.

I would also set my home to a non-CP vet/non-vet campagin as soon as it was created.

FWIW, I had higher hopes for the CP system, and it's unfortunate that it has come to this. But the standard min/max fotm builds combined with CP disparity--across all campaigns--have been a cause of much frustration and acrimony in PvP. I believe that the proposed changes to PvP mechanics (dodge rolling / bolt escape / etc) address the fotm builds appropriately. A campaign without CP (OR with a fixed number of maxxed CP) would solve the second issue.

Thank you ZOS for reading.

Docmandu · July 2015

That might have nothing to do with CP at all.. some "specs" are extremely OP in BWB but also only work in BWB. Heck anyone that has Healing Ward in BWB can become almost unkillable for a person without.

I also mostly play BWB, less lag and less required PvE grinding to get there.. but I also realize that it is far from balanced... with or without CP.

Docmandu · July 2015

I'm fine with CP as is... but if CP is to work in BWB, I wish I would also earn CP in BWB... I play 95% of the time in BWB, so I don't really progress much on the CP front (have 121 CP at the moment.. and I have no life :P as in.. play each day.. was VR14 when CP was introduced, so had the max conversion).

Suntzu1414 · July 2015

100% agree with original poster.

Kill Well
ST

Paradox · July 2015

It's still definitely the most balanced of any of the campaigns, though. It may force you out of some sets and builds from Vet, but it allows for a definitely more even field.

Sigtric · July 2015

Yeah, but he was lvl 12...

J2JMC · July 2015

My only concern with this is who do you balance the overall game for? I have no doubt this would be a HUGE hit. I honestly think I majority of players, whether pvp or pve, will try to be in a campaign like that. With that in mind, any balance changes done are going to have unintended effects. Two things could happen. Possibility 1, they work on the target group(most likely players with a lot of cp) and those below a certain threshold of cp are completely screwed. Possibility 2, the balance change doesn't have enough of an effect on the target group, therefore being worthless, yet players who weren't targeted are hurt for no reason.

While this is a decent start, I honestly believe the best way to deal with the CP situation as it affects the whole game, aside from removing them completely, is to severely limit the amount able to be obtained. I have some ideas that could perhaps be a starting point. The link to that thread is in my signature.

SturgeHammer · July 2015

The biggest difference I could see between the current non-vet system and a potential all Battle Leveled No-Cp campaign would be the phenomenon of "leveling out", which has a lot to do with maintaining BWBs healthy faction balance. No player or group of players can be dominant in BWB for too long before they have to start all over again. This provides a reprieve to their opponents, and an opportunity to catch up and level back out the playing field. If "leveling out" couldn't be simulated in some way there is a good chance that people would continue choosing BWB over the all battle level no-cp campaign and it would fail.

Deltia · July 2015

To the OP,

I like the passion you feel for non vet (or lowbie) PvP. This was a great place to train new players in PvP without them feeling they have to be Alliance Rank 10 Proxy Det spammers. Vet PvP is a slow grind to start feeling powerful, but in lowbie, you can react and not die instantly.

Regarding the CP, I've been on the other side of this, meaning enjoying the massive boost in regeneration, block cost, etc. I felt like a walking god when I had 250+ and people didn't have any. It's not good for the game honestly.

I absolutely love lowbie PvP and wish it had zero CP. Of maybe a second campaign without CP.

Another thing I want to mention, is additional character slots. I have eight VR 14 characters and miss training new guildies in lowbie PvP because its not fun walking around at level 13 getting proxy det for 25k health. The most fun I've ever had was in lowbie PvP even though I benefited directly from CP.

Lastly, I know your passion and the devs as well. They are looking and working out options to make this system a lot better. Great job testing, the math is real.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2015

i think a better idea is to have 2 champion systems. eliminate the PVE (current one) while you are in any PVP zone and modify the PVP focused parts of the tree to be PVE centric. Then make a new champion system based entirely off of AP or PVP rank. The details of how it could be built out and filled I will leave to creative minds but the allocation could be based off of existing rank or could start at 0 and be farmed exclusively though AP gains. It could cap out at some total percentage of full allowing for specialization over diversity. The focus of the traits would be 100% towards PVP and this tree would be disabled in PVE land so that it would have no impact on that aspect of the game.

Separating the systems also makes variations in experience gains between the two play-styles irreverent and cools a number of debates and controversies in both communities.

Snit · July 2015

Don't split the player base up any more than absolutely necessary. The PvP population isn't big enough for 31 flavors of campaign rules.

Paradox · July 2015

Eh, I think we should be able to cater to what everyone wants. And that's a bit complicated to implement. A base amount of CP for everyone in PvP maybe, but the development of a battle leveled no CP campaign would be simple and solve the issues.

Rudderr · July 2015

As an avid BwB player, I couldn't agree more with this post. It's incredibly frustrating when you are running into the same person over and over, and knowing that your fun has come to an end at the hand of their 500+ CP. Even worse is the feeling that I, myself, need to spend my days grinding CP on my vet so that I can keep up and compete on my non-vets. I love Non-Vet PvP, what I don't love is being at a disadvantage just because I don't grind as much as the next guy.... The thing is, the idea behind the Battle-Leveling system is truly wonderful. Everyone is on an even playing field, leaving everything up to skill. However, the allowance of a veteran only system in a non-veteran server is creating massive imbalance...

ThePonzzz · July 2015

This seems like a no brainer. Non-Vet PvP should be CP free, otherwise it's just going to get flooded more and more as these soulless CP hunters come out of the woodwork! Soulless because they aren't a veteran rank yet... Still don't have a soul. Soulless one. Ba dum tss!

bowmanz607 · July 2015

i think this would be a great idea. My understanding is that vet players will now be able to be battle leveled to a v14 that is moderately geared. This would allow for competitive gameplay for battle leveled players with low or no champion points. As it stands now, there is a gap in the playability of vet campaigns for players who have ranked out of non-vet, but have yet to get a bunch of champion points or reach max level. A campaign such as this will create an even experience for players leveling their characters and getting champion points. The only thing that will separate players is skill, for the most part anyway. There are a few guilds in non-vet that once their characters level out they start another one to maintain that level of of evenness that they can not currently find in vet pvp. Moreover, non-vets will still only have a disadvantage of less passives and skills. I am curious about this model though. Would this allow players to still earn champion points if they are vet but not use them? This addition would be much appreciated for players who simply want to play pvp while still progressing. Overall, this would create a great competitive server for many players. Much like the vet questing departed from the questing experience from 1-50, the vet experience for pvp departs drastically from the experience in non-vet.

Spottswoode · July 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
There should be a non Champion campaign and several capped champion campaigns and an unlimited campaign. If you guys cap or otherwise deal with the champion system in pvp, I will subscribe again.

bowmanz607 · July 2015

I dont know what the demand would be like for this, but what about a non-vet campaign that allows champion points and one that does not. again, not sure if there would be enough demand for this but a thought.

Joy_Division · July 2015

I have said from the very beginning the CPs in the nonvet campaign did not belong as it was counter-intuitive to the whole purpose of the campaign. With this I agree with the OP 100%.

But, I am not sure a non-CP standard campaign is a good idea. This is another "band-aid" fix that does not address the core of what I and many others have maintained about the champion system in the first place: an ever-widening gap between players who nuke zombies for 8 hours a day and those who do not. That's the problem. If you create a non CP-campaign, well that's fine in theory, but what happens if my guild, my friends, and the people I want to compete against do not play on it? Then the problem doesn't go away.

I understand that CPs are not in your realm of responsibility Mr Wheeler and it is unfortunate that you have to deal with the problems that system creates. Rather than try to come up with creative solutions to solve the VR + CP unholy mixture that was thrown upon your lap, remind the folks who are in charge of that system that every half-hour that goes by, some zealous people get a champion point. Something needs to be done now...not in six weeks. Correction: something needed to be done months ago.