Champion Points and the Future of Non-Vet PvP

bowmanz607

Ah yes. you are correct regarding the magic damage. I spoke out of turn. lol. I thought it was spell damage which would have meant it was affected. but magic damage would have no affect. thanks for the testing info!

Alcast

Paradox wrote: »

Totally 100% agree with everything in this glorious post. Why CP isnt' being removed or changed in Blackwater Blade in the upcoming PvP changes patch is far beyond me. Come on, ZoS. Everything here makes perfect sense.

They dont know how to actually deactivate the CP system

bowmanz607

Alcast wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Totally 100% agree with everything in this glorious post. Why CP isnt' being removed or changed in Blackwater Blade in the upcoming PvP changes patch is far beyond me. Come on, ZoS. Everything here makes perfect sense.

They dont know how to actually deactivate the CP system

i little birdie told me they will be deactivating it for all non-vet characters even in pve...maybe they announce today in eso live

Sposati

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

Yay for choices!

Very Attractive! I like this idea - my characters would definitely select non-CP PvP campaigns for vet and non-vet...

Where players' game skills (+ gear, skill points, etc choices) determine wins and losses.

Campaigns where the Real-skilled Players would compete, lol.

While maintaining CP campaigns for those who prefer them....

Nice one - hope to see it offered soon.

Vizier

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

spoqster

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

Yes @Vizier, you are completely right. The type of experimentation you write about is exactly what makes this game so much fun.

Now imagine you could have started with your experimentation at level 50, without having to level to v14. That's why people want the Veteran Ranks gone.

And now imagine you've done all the experimentation, you've practiced and you've got all your gear, but you have a job and a family, and you don't want to face players who are 20% more powerful than you simply because they don't. That's why people want the Champion System gone.

When I play Counter Strike for the first time, I also don't expect to win straight away. And I won't. That's because the experienced players have more practice and thus have more skill at the game. And that's perfectly fine. But if I start playing Counter Strike for the first time (with my pistol in hand), and face seasoned players who have shields, rocket launchers and jet-packs, then I wouldn't be playing that game for long. Simple multiplayer game dynamics.

phairdon

Even though I'm a non pvp-er. The idea of a campaign without CP, possibly pvp only armor with no stats is a great idea. Then its all about player skill.

Vizier

spoqster wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

Yes @Vizier, you are completely right. The type of experimentation you write about is exactly what makes this game so much fun.

Now imagine you could have started with your experimentation at level 50, without having to level to v14. That's why people want the Veteran Ranks gone.

And now imagine you've done all the experimentation, you've practiced and you've got all your gear, but you have a job and a family, and you don't want to face players who are 20% more powerful than you simply because they don't. That's why people want the Champion System gone.

When I play Counter Strike for the first time, I also don't expect to win straight away. And I won't. That's because the experienced players have more practice and thus have more skill at the game. And that's perfectly fine. But if I start playing Counter Strike for the first time (with my pistol in hand), and face seasoned players who have shields, rocket launchers and jet-packs, then I wouldn't be playing that game for long. Simple multiplayer game dynamics.

Counter Strike isn't an RPG- The analogy does not work. The very nature of an RPG makes it so the longer you play the more powerful you are. THAT is what RPGs do. Rather than turn this great RPG into a FPS I suggest those that want that type of play buy that type of flipping game.

Good grief, even when playing Call of Duty and Battlefield you still have a major difference between those new to the game and those that have played for awhile and unlocked Sh..tuff.

ATM CP is an easy target but there's way too many other factors to consider before such a focus on CP. It's all

QQ

syko809

Woman wrote: »

@syko809 Are you actually telling me to play more, because I don't think that's possible. =P

@Women nah am talking about does guys or girls since I actually meet a few that play this game, who dont invest the time into the game and then complain when the people who do kill them in PvP.. like I said I waited some time before jumping into PvP literally right after I hit 1 veteran why because I got some CPs and some good skills unlike some people who go into it being level 20 and expect it to be a fair fight... Man this ain't COD

druezub17_ESO

Paradox wrote: »

druezub17_ESO wrote: »

I like the CP points being in non vent campaigns. It is very similar to twink combat in WOW 29 bracket, or 39 bracket. I think I should be rewarded for having a character that is leveled up and if I make a new one the bonus is nice to have. Say whatever you want, but I like to feel powerful

Nothing about the WoW PvP twinks was a good thing. It destroyed any sense of balance between new players and old. You don't need large percentage values ruining the experience of a new player coming into PvP for the first time.

If you want to destroy the balance of an entire PvP server, then go back to WoW. A lot of us here just want a fair playing field. Sure there are advantages that an older player will have.. Skill, gear, etc. But all of these can be equalized by the new player. CP is not capable of being matched by a new player. This is where the problem lies and it's the basis for this thread.

A lot of people here also want CP points to stay as is, without any hard numbers its pretty difficult to believe either me or you are correct. I can tell you one thing, now that consoles are a part of this game you can't go by message boards at all. Computer gamers are much more inclined to post on a forum, in comparison to a console user.

I'm ok if they give you the option to either play on one server type or the other if that is how they want to solve the problem. But, by removing it. They remove part of the reason I enjoy playing games for a long time. I put the time in, I should have an advantage. It's kind of like America these days. Everyone wants everything to be equal, everyone should get a medal, everyone should only be just as fast as the next person. Come on man.

druezub17_ESO

Oh and this is coming from someone who only has about 80 CP points. So, I'm far from over powered. But, I like the idea that if I put the work in; I can get an advantage. I mean I'm in my 40's now. There is no question that my 14 year old and 7 year old kids have faster reflexes then I do now. That is only going to get progressively worse as the years roll on. But, one thing I can do is come up with a strategy, theory craft and put the effort in to build a great character through patience.

Mjollo

syko809 wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

@syko809 Are you actually telling me to play more, because I don't think that's possible. =P

@Women nah am talking about does guys or girls since I actually meet a few that play this game, who dont invest the time into the game and then complain when the people who do kill them in PvP.. like I said I waited some time before jumping into PvP literally right after I hit 1 veteran why because I got some CPs and some good skills unlike some people who go into it being level 20 and expect it to be a fair fight... Man this ain't COD

You're assuming that everyone in here complaining about the CP imbalance is a noob that has no idea what they're doing when in fact the people who helped put this thread together are some of the best players this game has to offer.
@Woman has been playing since launch and used to be a GM of one of the most famous PvE guilds back in the day and has since then switched to BwB because she likes the fact that their shouldn't be advantages that vet campaigns offer. She's a former empress and she runs some of the best groups in BwB.
@IHateReloads is one of the most well-known players in BwB as well as one of it's most seasoned. He's the one behind the statistics posted here to prove the difference CP can make at just a few points in a certain passive. He knows the strategy and combat of BwB like the back of his hand. He dies more in PvE than PvP for goodness sake (Kappa).
@Gallifreyy Is hands down one of the best tanks I know. He doesn't know the meaning of damage and could go make a sandwich, come back, eat it and still be alive from all the damage mitigation he has.
My point is, they aren't getting rekt in PvP at all. In fact, quite the opposite. That's why it's important to know as the players they are, they are coming at this with experience and they know well what they are talking about when it comes to the CP issues added to their success in BwB.

Elloa

I really wish that in PVP, players would be somewhat equal. Like in GW2, I believe their system is great. Just keep the gear on, so players can enjoy their own gear, most of sets are craftable anyway, and a low level players can wear as good set of gear as a highlevel character one they are battle leveled they would be on equal ground.

My suggestion for future campaigns:

- All players are battle leveled to the max level
- All players can wear a set of armor and weapon of that max level as they are battle leveled.
- All players can eat food and potion of that max level
- Champion point completely removed OR a certain number of Champion point are allowed to all players.
- All abilities exept Emperor and Alliance are unlocked.

So basically, you play a Pre-made version of your character. In that way, players are all equal and only skills, cunning and organisation matter.

The down side and plus side for this suggestion is that it will give little incentive for PVP players to do anything else than enjoying themselves in PVP. Is it what PVPer want, or do they want to have to work on their character?

Paradox

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

We don't care that you grinder an obscene amount of champion points. New players don't care, and nobody else should.. Definitely not in non vet PvP. You want to decimate new players? Do so on the Pve leaderboards. Don't try to make some sob story about you not being allowed to solo groups of new players without even the slightest worry of being killed. That's not fun for a new player, it's not fun for an older player who doesn't spend his free time killing snakes, and it doesn't belong in a pvp campaign made for players to first experience and learn how to play in PvP.

We're not talking about removing CP from all veteran PvP campaigns. We're discussing the removal of it from non-veteran and maybe the creation of a CP free server to get away from the massive imbalances that CP brings to the table. If you want to be able to decimate a random player due to your CP, then go do so in a vet campaign where they're used to balance being horrible and being one-shot. Players in non-veteran don't need that as their first experience, regardless of you not caring about their experiences, the game's future, or anything other than your gross advantage over them.

Paradox

druezub17_ESO wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

druezub17_ESO wrote: »

I like the CP points being in non vent campaigns. It is very similar to twink combat in WOW 29 bracket, or 39 bracket. I think I should be rewarded for having a character that is leveled up and if I make a new one the bonus is nice to have. Say whatever you want, but I like to feel powerful

Nothing about the WoW PvP twinks was a good thing. It destroyed any sense of balance between new players and old. You don't need large percentage values ruining the experience of a new player coming into PvP for the first time.

If you want to destroy the balance of an entire PvP server, then go back to WoW. A lot of us here just want a fair playing field. Sure there are advantages that an older player will have.. Skill, gear, etc. But all of these can be equalized by the new player. CP is not capable of being matched by a new player. This is where the problem lies and it's the basis for this thread.

A lot of people here also want CP points to stay as is, without any hard numbers its pretty difficult to believe either me or you are correct. I can tell you one thing, now that consoles are a part of this game you can't go by message boards at all. Computer gamers are much more inclined to post on a forum, in comparison to a console user.

I'm ok if they give you the option to either play on one server type or the other if that is how they want to solve the problem. But, by removing it. They remove part of the reason I enjoy playing games for a long time. I put the time in, I should have an advantage. It's kind of like America these days. Everyone wants everything to be equal, everyone should get a medal, everyone should only be just as fast as the next person. Come on man.

We want an equal opportunity, not total equality. If you want an advantage, use a gear set. It will only add to the gap that your skill has already created, which is fine. New players can overcome a skill and gear gap. They cannot however overcome a Champion Point gap. It's literally just not possible.

That's what we want. The opportunity to be on an equal playing field, to hone our skills, to hone the skills of new players, to kill players that are better. We don't just want CP to be the difference when I'm fighting someone who grinder 1000CP, and you can be damned sure that an experience like that would turn off a new player.

Insurmountable differences are not good for an MMO. They're already talking about a CP catch up mechanic to balance out the issues with that. Thing is... New players, ones with no veteran toons, no matter how good they can potentially become after a time in non-veteran, will never be able to bridge that gap before he vets out and is forced to grind CP to play with the people exploiting it in the non-veteran campaign that he'll probably never come back to.

sztartureb17_ESO

I also agree with the OP my last moths while I played ESO were spent in non vet campaign.

I hate Veteran ranks and champion systems as they are a huge wall in fron of the players who want to do AvA PvP as this whole game was intended for.

I recommend to watch this video and think about champion system and veteran ranks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php?print=1

There is the crown store with XP potions. Does that ring any bells?

As for myself I quit at the moment VR16 was announced.

spoqster

Vizier wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

Yes @Vizier, you are completely right. The type of experimentation you write about is exactly what makes this game so much fun.

Now imagine you could have started with your experimentation at level 50, without having to level to v14. That's why people want the Veteran Ranks gone.

And now imagine you've done all the experimentation, you've practiced and you've got all your gear, but you have a job and a family, and you don't want to face players who are 20% more powerful than you simply because they don't. That's why people want the Champion System gone.

When I play Counter Strike for the first time, I also don't expect to win straight away. And I won't. That's because the experienced players have more practice and thus have more skill at the game. And that's perfectly fine. But if I start playing Counter Strike for the first time (with my pistol in hand), and face seasoned players who have shields, rocket launchers and jet-packs, then I wouldn't be playing that game for long. Simple multiplayer game dynamics.

Counter Strike isn't an RPG- The analogy does not work. The very nature of an RPG makes it so the longer you play the more powerful you are. THAT is what RPGs do. Rather than turn this great RPG into a FPS I suggest those that want that type of play buy that type of flipping game.

Good grief, even when playing Call of Duty and Battlefield you still have a major difference between those new to the game and those that have played for awhile and unlocked Sh..tuff.

ATM CP is an easy target but there's way too many other factors to consider before such a focus on CP. It's all

QQ

I am really tired of people saying "an MMORPG is like xy, it has always been like that".

I am not going to go into details here, as this issue has been discussed in many other threads only recently. See the bottom for links. I am only going to list the most relevant thoughts.

Putting MMORPGs into perspective:

1. A MMORPG is a mix of two game types, an RPG and a multiplayer game.
2. Computer game RPGs have vertical character progression only because it is a relic from pen and paper times, when this mechanic was needed to create an abstraction for character progression. While this abstraction works in single player games (barely, e.g. not without scaling the content around you or accepting sequential world progression) it is not necessary in most computer games, because in games which feature sufficiently complex combat mechanics, players can improve their individual skill.
3. Successful multiplayer games use little or no vertical progression.
4. The current standard of themepark MMORPGs was successfully pioneered by WoW. WoW offered one way of merging RPG and multiplayer, but it's not the only way. The themepark model falls short especially in terms of player freedom (open world) and multiplayer, the two areas The Elder Scrolls series and ZOS, respectively, stand for. That's why many players expected ZOS to do more revolutionary pioneering work in the area of MMO game mechanics.
5. ZOS already adopted the FPS-esque look-based combat from the TES series (to great avail -- I am never going back to point-and-click for one), so it is not far-fetched to expect them to draw inspiration from highly successful multiplayer titles. And with battle-leveling they are already taking steps to level the playing field.
6. Nobody argues that an RPG should not have character progression. But many people are so used to vertical progression, that they either don't know what horizontal progression is, or they can't imagine how it might work, and how it is superior to vertical progression in many ways (see links below).

So @Vizier, long story short, Counter Strike may appear as a bad analogy if you look at MMORPGs as some online-computer version of 1980s Dungeons and Dragons. But if you accept the fact that it is 2015 now, and you are a game developer with the ambition to create an MMORPG with the best possible multiplayer experience, then the Counter Strike analogy is actually very useful.

In fact, a MMORPG game developer should have the ambition to join the multiplayer and RPG genres in a way that creates a multiplayer experience that parallels and even surpasses the best multiplayer games out there. And in some ways they have done so, as ESO's PvP (especially in BWB) is so fascinatingly complex and action-packed at the same time, that many, many console players were blown away when they first played it. Most people I played with after switching over from PC have told me in-game that it is the best multiplayer game they have ever played. It's just sad to see that ZOS is eroding it's own genius by implementing an antiquated progression system. And that's what this thread is all about.


Relevant threads (apart from Deltias well known thread):

• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192438/why-is-everyone-going-nuts-about-cp
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192499/cp-debate-some-people-apparently-need-a-power-advantage-to-compensate-for-lack-of-skill
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192430/why-does-everyone-want-to-be-equal
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192948/what-is-horizontal-progression
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/193105/why-do-mmorpgs-have-vertical-progression

Woman

spoqster wrote: »

I am really tired of people saying "an MMORPG is like xy, it has always been like that".

I am not going to go into details here, as this issue has been discussed in many other threads only recently. See the bottom for links. I am only going to list the most relevant thoughts.

Putting MMORPGs into perspective:

1. MMORPGs are a mix of two game types, an RPG and a multiplayer game.
2. RPGs only have vertical character progression because it is a relic from pen and paper times, when this was needed to abstract character progression. While this abstraction works in single player games (barely, e.g. not without scaling the content around you or accepting sequential world progression) it is not necessary in most computer games, because in games which feature sufficiently complex combat mechanics, players can improve their individual skill.
3. Successful multiplayer games use little or no vertical progression.
4. The current standard of themepark MMORPGs was successfully pioneered by WoW. WoW offered one way of merging RPG and multiplayer, but it's not the only way. The themepark model falls short especially in terms of player freedom (open world) and multiplayer, the two areas The Elder Scrolls series and ZOS, respectively, stand for. That's why many players expected ZOS to do more pioneering work in terms of MMO game mechanics.
5. ZOS already adopted the FPS-esque look-based combat from the TES series (to great avail -- I am never going back to point-and-click for one), so it is not far-fetched to expect them to draw inspiration from high success multiplayer titles. And with battle-leveling they are already taking steps to level the playing field.
6. Nobody argues that an RPG should not have character progression. But many people are so used to vertical progression, that they either don't know what horizontal progression is, or they can't imagine how it might work, and how it is superior to vertical progression in many ways (see links below).

So @Vizier, long story short, Counter Strike may appear as a bad analogy if you look at MMORPGs as some online-computer version of 1980s Dungeons and Dragons. But if you accept the fact that it is 2015 now, and you are a game developer with the ambition to create an MMORPG with the best possible multiplayer experience, then the Counter Strike analogy is actually very useful.

In fact, a MMORPG game developer should have the ambition to join the multiplayer and RPG genres in way that creates a multiplayer experience that parallels and even surpasses the best multiplayer games out there. And in some ways they have done so, as ESO's PvP (especially in BWB) is so fascinatingly complex and action-packed at the same time, that many, many console players were blown away when they first played it. Most people I played with after switching over from PC have told me in-game that it is the best multiplayer game they have ever played. It's just sad to see that ZOS is eroding it's own genius by implementing an antiquated progression system. And that's what this thread is all about.

Thank you SO much for this. I'm so glad you understood my point in the post and built upon it so eloquently. I hope everyone reads this.

JamilaRaj

sztartureb17_ESO wrote: »

I also agree with the OP my last moths while I played ESO were spent in non vet campaign.

I hate Veteran ranks and champion systems as they are a huge wall in fron of the players who want to do AvA PvP as this whole game was intended for.

I recommend to watch this video and think about champion system and veteran ranks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php?print=1

There is the crown store with XP potions. Does that ring any bells?

As for myself I quit at the moment VR16 was announced.

Free to play is currently broken, because it is broken fundamentally. The whales will not play with just the other whales, because they could not dominate them with their dollars; they would have just extremely expensive de facto subscription game and they would not pay hunderds or thousands of dollars for no advantages over anyone whatsoever. F2P games has to have power disparity between players based on amount of money they pay (i.e. have players who pay next to nothing if at all) and therefore must be P2W (and at various rate put off these non-whale players).

I am curious if anything will be actually done witht he issue brought up in the OP, as CPs and associated power disparity are the biggest draw of XP/CP boosters which in turn have potential to be the biggest draw of the crown store, so it might by worth the loss of some players over CPs.

technohic

Elloa wrote: »

I really wish that in PVP, players would be somewhat equal. Like in GW2, I believe their system is great. Just keep the gear on, so players can enjoy their own gear, most of sets are craftable anyway, and a low level players can wear as good set of gear as a highlevel character one they are battle leveled they would be on equal ground.

My suggestion for future campaigns:

- All players are battle leveled to the max level
- All players can wear a set of armor and weapon of that max level as they are battle leveled.
- All players can eat food and potion of that max level
- Champion point completely removed OR a certain number of Champion point are allowed to all players.
- All abilities exept Emperor and Alliance are unlocked.

So basically, you play a Pre-made version of your character. In that way, players are all equal and only skills, cunning and organisation matter.

The down side and plus side for this suggestion is that it will give little incentive for PVP players to do anything else than enjoying themselves in PVP. Is it what PVPer want, or do they want to have to work on their character?

I agree with you to an extent. They don't have to make it be a premade character you get buffed to however; and by setting that for just one campaign for both vet and non-vet; people can decide for themselves if they want to do that.

One option would be is let players have top level armor they cannot equip outside of the normalized campaign, and they can just slap some on when they go in. If they have nothing, have a standard issue set for magicka, stamina or hybrid that they can choose at a vendor in Cyrodiil.

All that might be a bit off from just disabling CPs and before I get the "well what about gear difference and skill level difference, or ability to craft gear and consumables? If you want to get rid of CPs, then why not those as well?"

The answer to that is simple. Time. None of those other things will permanently be at a time investment deficit. I can catch up because the top end is reachable and it is not a moving target. Along with that, I can buy a lot of that stuff with gold which I can earn even quicker.

I do not want to end players customization or the time they spent on their character; I just do not like the one where every time I stop playing, I'm falling behind and already behind to begin with. Even with the inspiration they have now, it just gives it to me for more hours than I will ever use. I travel for work at times and with family so it doesn't matter if they give me an hour of inspiration per every hour I am offline without a limit; I will never be on enough to use it.

spoqster

Elloa wrote: »

I really wish that in PVP, players would be somewhat equal. Like in GW2, I believe their system is great. Just keep the gear on, so players can enjoy their own gear, most of sets are craftable anyway, and a low level players can wear as good set of gear as a highlevel character one they are battle leveled they would be on equal ground.

My suggestion for future campaigns:

- All players are battle leveled to the max level
- All players can wear a set of armor and weapon of that max level as they are battle leveled.
- All players can eat food and potion of that max level
- Champion point completely removed OR a certain number of Champion point are allowed to all players.
- All abilities exept Emperor and Alliance are unlocked.

So basically, you play a Pre-made version of your character. In that way, players are all equal and only skills, cunning and organisation matter.

The down side and plus side for this suggestion is that it will give little incentive for PVP players to do anything else than enjoying themselves in PVP. Is it what PVPer want, or do they want to have to work on their character?

I do agree with you that the best multiplayer experience requires a level playing field, but I don't believe the solution you mention is the ideal way to go, simply because it completely separates the PvE and PvP experiences, splitting the game into two games.

But it is possible to create an MMO that offers a satisfyingly rich progression experience in PvE and a level-playing-field multiplayer experience at the same time and with the same character, IF the game uses the right progression mechanics.

druezub17_ESO

Paradox wrote: »

We want an equal opportunity, not total equality. If you want an advantage, use a gear set. It will only add to the gap that your skill has already created, which is fine. New players can overcome a skill and gear gap. They cannot however overcome a Champion Point gap. It's literally just not possible.

That's what we want. The opportunity to be on an equal playing field, to hone our skills, to hone the skills of new players, to kill players that are better. We don't just want CP to be the difference when I'm fighting someone who grinder 1000CP, and you can be damned sure that an experience like that would turn off a new player.

Insurmountable differences are not good for an MMO. They're already talking about a CP catch up mechanic to balance out the issues with that. Thing is... New players, ones with no veteran toons, no matter how good they can potentially become after a time in non-veteran, will never be able to bridge that gap before he vets out and is forced to grind CP to play with the people exploiting it in the non-veteran campaign that he'll probably never come back to.

Hmm, I never looked at it that way on the CP point thing. That would be almost impossible to catch someone that far away. I guess I haven't noticed it since I don't have that many CP's.

As long as they have a campaign that allows for people to be completely uncapped with VR ranks, CP's, armor, items etc... e.g. a true ultimate campaign with no catch up mechanics; then I'm good with that. The great thing about how they run campaigns is they can truly make them with different rule sets and rewards.

druezub17_ESO

The reason I quit GW2, is they don't reward you for playing more. As soon as I maxed my guy and gear; I felt like what was the point. No more progression. I don't like that.

spoqster

By the way, @ZOS_BrianWheeler there are other ways to give players that feeling of power that draws so many people to MMOs. It doesn't have to be vertical progression in the form of veteran ranks or the Champion System. I'm sure this has been suggested before, but I'll mention it again: Daedric Artifacts

Much like the Elder Scrolls and the Emperor title already provide non-permanent buffs, if done right, these elements can provide a not-monotonic and thus open-ended progression system.

Such a system gives every single player the chance to feel that same sense of power for a limited time that hardcore players get to feel all the time.


Brief Concept Scribbles

• Deaedric Artifacts are super-powerful weapons which only exist once in each campaign. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Daedric_Artifact
• Players can pick them up and lose them to their assailant when they die.
• A player can only wield one Artifact at any given time.
• Players can only wield an Artifact for a specific amount of time or a certain number of individual uses before they lose it.
• When a character loses an Artifact from over-use it returns to it's spawn point.
• When a player who currently wields an Artifact logs out, the Artifact is transferred to the member of his group > guild > alliance with the most AP.
• While in combat (and up to X mins after combat ended), the Artifact's location is visible on the map.
• Prevention against mis-use such as hiding the Artifact (it pops up on the map automatically after 30 mins of non-combat), Artifact trading (every player can only wield Artifact for X hours each week), and others are necessary.
• Of course these Artifacts would need to be balanced well, need fit in with the current Emperor mechanic, etc.

Examples
(Please don't hate - these are just ideas and obviously need balancing)

• Mace of Molag Bal -- Light attack reduces a player's health to 1% and fills a grand soul gem, while a heavy attack delivers an AoE effect that reduces the magicka and health of all players in the vicinity to 50%.
• Dawnbreaker - Meridia's Weapon -- Light attack puts down a ray on the ground that instantly kills undead when hit. The heavy attack does a cone AoE that does an insane amount of damage to undead (vampires), literally burning them to the ground in-between all the non-vampires. Weapon does little to medium damage to non-undead players.
• Savior's Hide -- Gives players an insane amount magicka resistance but makes them weaker against physical attacks.
• Mehrune's Razor -- Heavy attack instantly kills enemy when used from stealth (and fills a soul gem), but approximate location is always visible on map.
• Oghma Infinium -- Gives wielder access to all skills in the game (except for the Emperor skill line) and unlimited skill points. Player is reset to original configuration when Artifact is lost.
• Ring of Namira -- Reflects 50% of all direct single target damage to the attacker, but not AoE or trap damage.
• Spellbreaker -- This powerful Dwemer shield reflects single-target magicka damage as a AoE damage when blocking. All affected targets are stunned.
• Ebony Blade -- Light attack channels life-drain to a group member, each successful heavy attack restores the wielder to full health. If used from stealth, attacks permanently increase the Artifact's weapon damage until Artifact lost.
• Volendrung -- A light attack reduces target's weapon damage to 0 for X seconds, while the heavy attack is similar to that of the Mace of Molag Bal, only that it drains health and stamina.
• Wabbajack -- A light attack summons a random npc creature at impact location. A heavy attack transforms a player into a random npc creature. If the npc dies while the player is transformed, the player dies - if not, the npc transforms back to the player character (with full resources) after X seconds.

Again, these are just ideas. I don't even think there should be that many Artifacts in any given campaign, more like 3 to 5.


I know that it would take an obscene amount of work to integrate Daedric Artifacts like that (especially in terms of testing and balancing), I just jotted this down to illustrate that there are ways to give players the god-like user experience they want without having to resort to antiquated and game-breaking progression mechanics.

And you'd be making a revolutionary and phenomenal video game at the same time. No one could give this game a 6/10 if it allowed players to wield the Mace of Molag Bal. ;-)

ashlee17

Thank you! This is awesome! Great thread @Woman

Vizier

spoqster wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

NEW PLAYERS WITH NO CP play on the same server. We play it to avoid the imbalances of the precious vet servers.

Again, with the "I don't care about new players" ideology. Your point only proves that you don't care about the game and new blood into it.

I care in as much as new players don't whine about the old players being too powerful and then make BS arguments about power levels when their are tons of more factors involved than just CP. Sorry man (not really) but I wouldn't expect to be able to kill everyone when I've only been in the game for a short time.

When I was new I didn't expect it, I leveled to v14. Then I discovered there was more to it than just levels. And so I experimented with my gear. I discovered that helped a great deal. And then I upgraded it to legendary and I discovered that helped more than I thought it would. And through all this I learned there was more skill involved than just gear and as time went on I learned to play and I got better and developed situational awareness that lent to me not getting WTFPowned all the time. That's part of the experience of characters and players going through the growing process from infancy to maturity.

I for one like the challenge. Certainly things need to be balanced, in a way that allows for the various classes and builds to have reasonable chances of success vs each other based on the strengths and weaknesses of their builds, play styles and skill. I do not support bringing things down to the lowest common denominator merely because folks feel weak. So many are pointing fingers at CP when they don't see the other variables and so ZOS IMO, has a history of over reacting. I would caution them not to mess up their CP system and not to do too much regarding CP until they actually follow through with removing VR and adjusting gear to appropriate levels.

What about the players that are wealthy and good crafters? They make or buy set items then upgrade them to legendary even in the pre-vet campaigns. These give huge bonuses especially when most are running around with looted gear that's green at best. Are we going to put a restriction on those too?

I say play the game. Get thicker skin. Learn to play and stop trying to take away what players have earned. It stands to reason veteran players will have some advantages and IMO that just comes with the territory of an MMO.

Yes @Vizier, you are completely right. The type of experimentation you write about is exactly what makes this game so much fun.

Now imagine you could have started with your experimentation at level 50, without having to level to v14. That's why people want the Veteran Ranks gone.

And now imagine you've done all the experimentation, you've practiced and you've got all your gear, but you have a job and a family, and you don't want to face players who are 20% more powerful than you simply because they don't. That's why people want the Champion System gone.

When I play Counter Strike for the first time, I also don't expect to win straight away. And I won't. That's because the experienced players have more practice and thus have more skill at the game. And that's perfectly fine. But if I start playing Counter Strike for the first time (with my pistol in hand), and face seasoned players who have shields, rocket launchers and jet-packs, then I wouldn't be playing that game for long. Simple multiplayer game dynamics.

Counter Strike isn't an RPG- The analogy does not work. The very nature of an RPG makes it so the longer you play the more powerful you are. THAT is what RPGs do. Rather than turn this great RPG into a FPS I suggest those that want that type of play buy that type of flipping game.

Good grief, even when playing Call of Duty and Battlefield you still have a major difference between those new to the game and those that have played for awhile and unlocked Sh..tuff.

ATM CP is an easy target but there's way too many other factors to consider before such a focus on CP. It's all

QQ

I am really tired of people saying "an MMORPG is like xy, it has always been like that".

I am not going to go into details here, as this issue has been discussed in many other threads only recently. See the bottom for links. I am only going to list the most relevant thoughts.

Putting MMORPGs into perspective:

1. A MMORPG is a mix of two game types, an RPG and a multiplayer game.
2. Computer game RPGs have vertical character progression only because it is a relic from pen and paper times, when this mechanic was needed to create an abstraction for character progression. While this abstraction works in single player games (barely, e.g. not without scaling the content around you or accepting sequential world progression) it is not necessary in most computer games, because in games which feature sufficiently complex combat mechanics, players can improve their individual skill.
3. Successful multiplayer games use little or no vertical progression.
4. The current standard of themepark MMORPGs was successfully pioneered by WoW. WoW offered one way of merging RPG and multiplayer, but it's not the only way. The themepark model falls short especially in terms of player freedom (open world) and multiplayer, the two areas The Elder Scrolls series and ZOS, respectively, stand for. That's why many players expected ZOS to do more revolutionary pioneering work in the area of MMO game mechanics.
5. ZOS already adopted the FPS-esque look-based combat from the TES series (to great avail -- I am never going back to point-and-click for one), so it is not far-fetched to expect them to draw inspiration from highly successful multiplayer titles. And with battle-leveling they are already taking steps to level the playing field.
6. Nobody argues that an RPG should not have character progression. But many people are so used to vertical progression, that they either don't know what horizontal progression is, or they can't imagine how it might work, and how it is superior to vertical progression in many ways (see links below).

So @Vizier, long story short, Counter Strike may appear as a bad analogy if you look at MMORPGs as some online-computer version of 1980s Dungeons and Dragons. But if you accept the fact that it is 2015 now, and you are a game developer with the ambition to create an MMORPG with the best possible multiplayer experience, then the Counter Strike analogy is actually very useful.

In fact, a MMORPG game developer should have the ambition to join the multiplayer and RPG genres in a way that creates a multiplayer experience that parallels and even surpasses the best multiplayer games out there. And in some ways they have done so, as ESO's PvP (especially in BWB) is so fascinatingly complex and action-packed at the same time, that many, many console players were blown away when they first played it. Most people I played with after switching over from PC have told me in-game that it is the best multiplayer game they have ever played. It's just sad to see that ZOS is eroding it's own genius by implementing an antiquated progression system. And that's what this thread is all about.


Relevant threads (apart from Deltias well known thread):

• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192438/why-is-everyone-going-nuts-about-cp
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192499/cp-debate-some-people-apparently-need-a-power-advantage-to-compensate-for-lack-of-skill
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192430/why-does-everyone-want-to-be-equal
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192948/what-is-horizontal-progression
• http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/193105/why-do-mmorpgs-have-vertical-progression

I'm real tired of people trying to make an RPG into a FPS to suit their misguided notions of "fairness." I'm real tired of people feeling like they are owed something they didn't earn or trying to bring down those that did to their level. There's a ton of games out there are arena based and throw folks together at virtually the same levels...shrug. This isn't that and never was intended to be that. If folks are going to get into an RPG they need to put their time in. As simple as that. I have less then 200 CP. My highest passive is bumped about 8-10% with 40 plus points into one category. I'm not going to start crying about the folks that ground their butts off to get 700-1000 points. They earned it. I didn't. It's irrelevant that I'm a full time student with a family and don't have tons of time to play. If it means so much to me, I'll find a way to grind.

The only folks that should be smacked down are those with so much CP they could have only done it running macros for months strait. Those cats clearly are abusing the system, but rather then screw everyone ZoS needs to look into those players. I'm sure they could figure out who did what pretty easily if they just looked.

Soulshine

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

Frankly, it completely baffles me that the second the CP system got into planning stages, let alone implemented, this was not considered right then and there as a mandatory change to the game in the first place.

Trying to even balance the class skills thanks to PvP issues has already proven ratty enough in this game without throwing CP differentials into it - please consider this for the future of the game.

Mjollo

Vizier wrote: »

I'm real tired of people trying to make an RPG into a FPS to suit their misguided notions of "fairness." I'm real tired of people feeling like they are owed something they didn't earn or trying to bring down those that did to their level. There's a ton of games out there are arena based and throw folks together at virtually the same levels...shrug. This isn't that and never was intended to be that. If folks are going to get into an RPG they need to put their time in. As simple as that. I have less then 200 CP. My highest passive is bumped about 8-10% with 40 plus points into one category. I'm not going to start crying about the folks that ground their butts off to get 700-1000 points. They earned it. I didn't. It's irrelevant that I'm a full time student with a family and don't have tons of time to play. If it means so much to me, I'll find a way to grind.

The only folks that should be smacked down are those with so much CP they could have only done it running macros for months strait. Those cats clearly are abusing the system, but rather then screw everyone ZoS needs to look into those players. I'm sure they could figure out who did what pretty easily if they just looked.

That's great but as i said twice already in previous posts, keep that stuff in vet PvP. It's a lot harder to enforce balance in veteran campaigns since you have more freedom to customize your character the way you want but BlackWater Blade is already an intentional balanced campaign to make it fair for new players vs. seasoned vets. If it limits your set bonuses, attributes, passives, etc, why should it allow champion points if new players can't even use them? How is that supposed to make PvP attractive to those who just bought the game if someone with enough CP could potentially do more than 50% extra damage while spamming a lava whip and on a player who has nothing to defend himself with? You're saying that's okay?

Vizier

Paradox wrote: »

druezub17_ESO wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

druezub17_ESO wrote: »

I like the CP points being in non vent campaigns. It is very similar to twink combat in WOW 29 bracket, or 39 bracket. I think I should be rewarded for having a character that is leveled up and if I make a new one the bonus is nice to have. Say whatever you want, but I like to feel powerful

Nothing about the WoW PvP twinks was a good thing. It destroyed any sense of balance between new players and old. You don't need large percentage values ruining the experience of a new player coming into PvP for the first time.

If you want to destroy the balance of an entire PvP server, then go back to WoW. A lot of us here just want a fair playing field. Sure there are advantages that an older player will have.. Skill, gear, etc. But all of these can be equalized by the new player. CP is not capable of being matched by a new player. This is where the problem lies and it's the basis for this thread.

A lot of people here also want CP points to stay as is, without any hard numbers its pretty difficult to believe either me or you are correct. I can tell you one thing, now that consoles are a part of this game you can't go by message boards at all. Computer gamers are much more inclined to post on a forum, in comparison to a console user.

I'm ok if they give you the option to either play on one server type or the other if that is how they want to solve the problem. But, by removing it. They remove part of the reason I enjoy playing games for a long time. I put the time in, I should have an advantage. It's kind of like America these days. Everyone wants everything to be equal, everyone should get a medal, everyone should only be just as fast as the next person. Come on man.

We want an equal opportunity, not total equality. If you want an advantage, use a gear set. It will only add to the gap that your skill has already created, which is fine. New players can overcome a skill and gear gap. They cannot however overcome a Champion Point gap. It's literally just not possible.

That's what we want. The opportunity to be on an equal playing field, to hone our skills, to hone the skills of new players, to kill players that are better. We don't just want CP to be the difference when I'm fighting someone who grinder 1000CP, and you can be damned sure that an experience like that would turn off a new player.

Insurmountable differences are not good for an MMO. They're already talking about a CP catch up mechanic to balance out the issues with that. Thing is... New players, ones with no veteran toons, no matter how good they can potentially become after a time in non-veteran, will never be able to bridge that gap before he vets out and is forced to grind CP to play with the people exploiting it in the non-veteran campaign that he'll probably never come back to.

Never played Wow. Never wanted to.

I'll be ok with it so long as there is a give and take. People want to play warm and fuzzy core with no CP then they earn significantly less XP and AP. I'd totally support that. Play Hardcore and you get more. There shouldn't be equal outcome with less risk. Additionally there should never be CP earned in pre-vet campaigns...EVER.

The assumption that CP is what makes the difference is that, only that an assumption. The other factors, skill, gear, technique IMO make a much larger difference and until there's a real study done as to what all the factors are I do not accept that CP is the culprit at this time, especially when most players are still under a few hundred points.

These are NOT insurmountable differences. That is just BS. They are overcome through play. What part of diminishing return for CP points spent do you not understand? The returns for points spent have an exponential loss as players achieve higher point CP values in any given category. Therefor play will ALWAYs decrease the gaps between the haves and have nots...ALWAYs. ...especially when, as is, PVE CP gains are significantly more efficient than in PvP.

RoamingRiverElk

Vizier wrote: »

What part of diminishing return for CP points spent do you not understand? The returns for points spent have an exponential loss as players achieve higher point CP values in any given category. Therefor play will ALWAYs decrease the gaps between the haves and have nots...ALWAYs. ...especially when, as is, PVE CP gains are significantly more efficient than in PvP.

The part where diminishing turns in PvP really start more around 2500+ CP than around 150 CP...