Champion Points and the Future of Non-Vet PvP

Woman · July 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

I would leave it at non-Vet Campaigns. On Vet Campaigns it sort of sends the wrong message if you disable them. If you have to disable your progression system on normal campaigns, your progression system has a problem not the campaigns. If you feel that it needs to be disabled on normal campaigns, fix progression system not the campaign.

I tend to agree. We should try to fix one problem before tackling such a large issue as CP as a whole. This problem has a simple solution.

Woman · July 2015

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

That's kind of the point... We like it there since we don't earn CP there, thus CP shouldn't be allowed there in the first place.

Paradox · July 2015

Woman wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I would leave it at non-Vet Campaigns. On Vet Campaigns it sort of sends the wrong message if you disable them. If you have to disable your progression system on normal campaigns, your progression system has a problem not the campaigns. If you feel that it needs to be disabled on normal campaigns, fix progression system not the campaign.

I tend to agree. We should try to fix one problem before tackling such a large issue as CP as a whole. This problem has a simple solution.

Still would love to see a vet/non-vet combination with no CP and a battle level system.

technohic · July 2015

Paradox wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I would leave it at non-Vet Campaigns. On Vet Campaigns it sort of sends the wrong message if you disable them. If you have to disable your progression system on normal campaigns, your progression system has a problem not the campaigns. If you feel that it needs to be disabled on normal campaigns, fix progression system not the campaign.

I tend to agree. We should try to fix one problem before tackling such a large issue as CP as a whole. This problem has a simple solution.

Still would love to see a vet/non-vet combination with no CP and a battle level system.

Same here. If they fix it, then people would leave the CP disabled campaign. If not, well then keep working on it while I enjoy doing what I want to do anyway.

To be honest; people do have a point in the "if you don't like it, then ESO is not the game for you." Well of course, as stands that may be correct; but the option there is to just accept people who don't like it leaving the game and heading that advice, or just add the CP disabled system so they can have what they like and others can have the CP version.

pppontus · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

YEEEEEESSSS!!! That would truly be a dream for many of us who can't (or aren't willing to) keep up with the 5+ hour-a-day-grinders. I think there's a lot of people who just want a balanced and fair pvp experience and this would really enable that.

GTech_1 · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

Excellent, yes! This is exactly what I would like to see.

Gilvoth · July 2015

I am interested in veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities in a pvp campaign.
i would definately join that campaign, if it existed.

SC0TY999 · July 2015

ZOS lack of logic!

A veteran rank progression system that can be used on non-vet characters.

Hmmmm definitely makes no sense at all!

Mjollo · July 2015

Vizier wrote: »

gotta love folks complaining about CP imbalances then spend all their time in a campaign that earns no CP... Then want the CP earned by others to mean crap. ummm Ya, that makes sense. :-/

Blackwater Blade is an entire campaign of it's own nature. The way the PvP system works is different of any other campaign due to the idea that everyone is already battle-leveled. The entire nature of Blackwater Blade is to put people on an even scale so that you can't rely on gear and levels to defeat an enemy. It's about who has the better skill bar. So if the campaign is meant to scale everyone too each other, why should CP be present to tip that balance? We aren't asking to earn CP in non-vet campaigns at all. We are asking for the removal of them because they shouldn't be present in the first place.

Celestrael · July 2015

Honestly I don't see the point in CP, period. There's already the Veteran system, and it's going to be extended as ZOS releases more DLCs. Isn't that enough character progression? I understand giving power gamers SOMETHING to grind since they are absolutely insatiable when it comes to content (they burn through it at an unreasonable rate then demand more)... but I'm not sure that the CP system is the answer.

If nothing else, just have a CP-specific campaign and zero out CP in all the others. The power gamers can play against other power gamers and everyone will be happy.

Caza99 · July 2015

Sigtric wrote: »

To add more:

The biggest indication to me that CP is a broken system is the fact that I can take one of my EP VR characters and go grind zombies for a few hours to make my DC lowbie stronger. That is ridiculous.

I think:
1. Both vet and non-vet need CP disabled campaigns
2. CP should only be available for use on characters that can earn it. (Whether this means make them attainable at lvl 1 or not, I don't know, but this might be a decent way to do things)

As they stand right now, whoever has more time to grind XP is going to come out on top of nearly any given PVP fight because of the mathematical advantage and that needs to be corrected somehow.

That second option seems a bit extreme...
I think they should just make it so you can only apply CP to a character after they hit VRs, which is when they begin earning some themselves.

druezub17_ESO · July 2015

I like the CP points being in non vent campaigns. It is very similar to twink combat in WOW 29 bracket, or 39 bracket. I think I should be rewarded for having a character that is leveled up and if I make a new one the bonus is nice to have. Say whatever you want, but I like to feel powerful

Nallenil · July 2015

Yes I've made posts and discussions about removing CP from BWB as well. Hope the developers get the idea and discuss it internally. Until then, I'm like a small emperor who can block, roll dodge, dps infinitely on new and old players. And no I'm not gonna gimp myself by not applying my CP because I hate to lose against someone who has more CP. All in all I agree with OP.

Nirn is getting fixed in the next update thanks for that. Really tired of people with full nirn gear and at spell resistance cap in non vet.

Audigy · July 2015

I think to what this thread comes down here, is the idea that everyone should be equal in an MMOs pvp system, this however wont work.

Yes ZOS can take away CP´s, but we would still have the problems of people in better gear, of people facing premades or just being less good.

I loved the Twink BG´s at WOW until they were removed and BOA took over, but the imbalance wasn't purely because of these things, just like it isn't an uneven battlefield at ZOS just because of CP.

Even people scaled up, have a huge disadvantage - no matter how many CP you scale to or to what player level.

If you want to make pvp balanced, then give everyone the same skills, equipment and group size. But this in an MMO, is just never going to happen sadly.

Cherryblossom · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

It always great to know you are paying attention to people concerns, however can you explain the reasoning behind not having this in place when CP first came out.
I find it hard to believe that you could of been unaware of the issues raised by large section regarding inbalance caused by CP.
You must run simulations of real combat situations, so you would know the raw figure difference between having CP and not having CP. So can you explain why you felt there would be no impact caused by CP, I think it would help relieve some of the concerns of the community.

Paradox · July 2015

druezub17_ESO wrote: »

I like the CP points being in non vent campaigns. It is very similar to twink combat in WOW 29 bracket, or 39 bracket. I think I should be rewarded for having a character that is leveled up and if I make a new one the bonus is nice to have. Say whatever you want, but I like to feel powerful

Nothing about the WoW PvP twinks was a good thing. It destroyed any sense of balance between new players and old. You don't need large percentage values ruining the experience of a new player coming into PvP for the first time.

If you want to destroy the balance of an entire PvP server, then go back to WoW. A lot of us here just want a fair playing field. Sure there are advantages that an older player will have.. Skill, gear, etc. But all of these can be equalized by the new player. CP is not capable of being matched by a new player. This is where the problem lies and it's the basis for this thread.

GaldorP · July 2015

This might be slightly off-topic, but why does Thaumaturge increase the damage on Lava Whip? The tooltop says it's fire damage. Does that mean both Thaumaturge and Elemental Expert increase the damage of the same skill?

Edit: Based on some testing, I don't think the damage of Lava Whip increases with more points in Thaumaturge, but your max Magicka is increased for each point spent in the Mage which also increases the damage of all skills that scale with Magicka.

JamilaRaj · July 2015

Sigtric wrote: »

Yep. I pretty much am DONE with Vet Cyro campaigns until they are something more than a slide show. I've been spending a LOT of time in Blackwater and I love it, but I agree. The CP issue is going to kill it, and I'm already seeing the effects of it.

At level 22 or so, my Nightblade came across a level 12 that I could not kill. I've encountered lvl 49s and even a Vr1 in Blackwater that I've been able to down with little effort, this level 12 however just wasn't taking damage OR was regenerating faster than I could DPS.

It was pretty obvious to me that it was a CP point disparity, as I don't really have that many.

Not to say I support CPs in the noob campaign, but that might not be necessarily CPs. There is power creep especially in regen department going on since 2014 when ZOS increased softcaps and it has finally reached the noob campaign. E.g. magicka regen used to be capped at ~80 (800 in inflated numbers). Now it is not capped and on top of whatever you have, which may be quite a lot even without any CPs allocated whatsoever, you can chug regen potions that alone add 50 (500).
Which means players can more or less outregen DoTs (unless it is from a siege engine) and have enough resources to spam shields, heals, along with various BEs, mist forms, not to speak of blocking and roll dodging.
Some of the changes ZOS announced it would do touch it but do not strike me as being exactly spot on.

Woman · July 2015

Audigy wrote: »

I think to what this thread comes down here, is the idea that everyone should be equal in an MMOs pvp system, this however wont work.

That was not the thesis behind my post at all. My post was about creating equal opportunity among non-vet players and to lower the growing gap between players with many vet toons vs players without any at all. Last night, we held a dueling event and for the first time I witnessed one of the best duelers in the campaign get beat by someone who just took 0 dmg past their shield, in full medium armor.This is one of the biggest issues with CP in blackwater, which is that toons are already tanky from the Battle Leveling system. So much CP is defensive, thus whenever two 200+ CP duelers battle, no one can kill one another- they always call it draw.

I’m insanely competitive and the last thing I want is everyone to be equal in BWB. I worked hard to become the player I was in order to compete- but that work included builds, crafting, keep defense, dueling, all of which could be done by a player with no vet toons. However now in a campaign that was created purely for Non-Vets, those things I listed will not matter as much because they will be required to make a Vet to compete. It makes no sense.

Balance matters, the best MMOs are always somewhat balanced and one of the biggest reasons TESO is getting good reviews now are because some of the balance changes they made like:

Removing Ultimates building off of Spell Crit
DK Vampires being able to stay alive indefinitely
Stamina becoming a viable alternative to Magicka Builds

When people made posts complaining about the insane DK Vampires ruining PVP a few months after launch, plenty of people responded with “PvP will always be unbalanced, there will always be better builds etc..”. If ZOS had listened to those posters, this game would be dead right now. Thankfully they didn’t and the game is now successful because of it. I hope they continue with this patern.

eventide03b14a_ESO · July 2015

Celestrael wrote: »

Honestly I don't see the point in CP, period. There's already the Veteran system, and it's going to be extended as ZOS releases more DLCs. Isn't that enough character progression? I understand giving power gamers SOMETHING to grind since they are absolutely insatiable when it comes to content (they burn through it at an unreasonable rate then demand more)... but I'm not sure that the CP system is the answer.

If nothing else, just have a CP-specific campaign and zero out CP in all the others. The power gamers can play against other power gamers and everyone will be happy.

Are you not paying attention? The CP system was supposed to replace the veteran system.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

I imagine it would be very welcome. No drawbacks really if you can include among the various campaigns a few CP and non-CP options.

spoqster · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

Thank you so much for this comment ZOS_BrianWheeler! It's the first sign I see from the devs that they are following the ongoing debates about the Champion System.

Someone already suggested this in a thread I started on the subject back in February (albeit that post goes a bit further): http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v1(see comments #10 and #11)

For what it's worth, I'm totally for having both non-vet and vet campaigns with CP disabled. I think a vet campaign with CP disabled is necessary, because many new players can't be bothered to create a new characters after they hit v1 with their first. Most want to continue playing with that character and don't want to start over straight away.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler is there any chance you can get this into the IC update?

You could replace the vet campaign which rewards points only for resources (does not sound very promising) with one that disallows CP.
On consoles you can transform one of the two non-vet campaigns into one that disallows CP.
On PC/Mac you can add a second non-vet campaign which disallows CP.

technohic · July 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Celestrael wrote: »

Honestly I don't see the point in CP, period. There's already the Veteran system, and it's going to be extended as ZOS releases more DLCs. Isn't that enough character progression? I understand giving power gamers SOMETHING to grind since they are absolutely insatiable when it comes to content (they burn through it at an unreasonable rate then demand more)... but I'm not sure that the CP system is the answer.

If nothing else, just have a CP-specific campaign and zero out CP in all the others. The power gamers can play against other power gamers and everyone will be happy.

Are you not paying attention? The CP system was supposed to replace the veteran system.

Sounds like they have as they elude to the fact that the veteran system is not going anywhere any time soon. Maybe you haven't been paying attention but they are raising it again.

Personally I'd rather keep VR and be rid of the champion system as we were before but will settle for disabled campaigns.

Ballzy321 · July 2015

I will start playing again ASAP if they bring no cp campaigns. Place for us casual players who don't have time for endless hours to grind and still have no hope to catch up to be on same lvl. Sign me up

Cernow · July 2015

I've played a lot of Blackwater Blade on various characters in the last few months. For the most part the experience has been enjoyable. BUT, the power creep and gap caused by CPs is steadily becoming apparent and it can only get a lot worse with time. The warning signs are there and ZOS need to address them before it kills this campaign.

CPs have no place in non-vet campaigns. They are an endgame mechanic.

Either totally disable CPs in Blackwater Blade or cap them at a reasonable level, such as the 10 point abilities.

Personally I've found myself drifting away from Blackwater Blade (and the game, because this was the only thing holding my attention) because of this issue. And it's not because I don't have any CPs (I have about 120), more because of how I see the overall balance deteriorating in the campaign. CPs aren't the whole cause, but they are a significant contributing factor.

Augustiine · July 2015

I have a fair amount of CPs but I totally agree with having non-vet and vet campaign without CPs. Older, more experienced characters will always be better than newer ones, but with CPs, the difference is just to great to provide a good experience for everyone.

Please, make that happen!

SturgeHammer · July 2015

druezub17_ESO wrote: »

I like the CP points being in non vent campaigns. It is very similar to twink combat in WOW 29 bracket, or 39 bracket. I think I should be rewarded for having a character that is leveled up and if I make a new one the bonus is nice to have. Say whatever you want, but I like to feel powerful

You can still be powerful in Non-Vet without Chamion Points. You won't miss them if they go away. As @Woman said, it's about giving everyone an equal opportunity, which means getting rid of something not everyone in non-vet has access to, not about eliminating all advantage that comes with spending time in game. In fact if you have a good BWB build and decent skills you will actually become More Powerful by eliminating everyone's fluff stats provided by the champ system.

bowmanz607 · July 2015

GaldorP wrote: »

This might be slightly off-topic, but why does Thaumaturge increase the damage on Lava Whip? The tooltop says it's fire damage. Does that mean both Thaumaturge and Elemental Expert increase the damage of the same skill?

Edit: Based on some testing, I don't think the damage of Lava Whip increases with more points in Thaumaturge, but your max Magicka is increased for each point spent in the Mage which also increases the damage of all skills that scale with Magicka.

Because it increases spell damage. Lava whip scales off of spell damage and elemental damage.

RoamingRiverElk · July 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

OMG PLEASE DO MAX-360-CP-ACTIVATED-PER-CHARACTER* CAMPAIGN FOR VETERANS! Because then my friends and I would more likely continue to play this game... And yes, these are good, experienced PvPers who loved to PvP pre-1.6. And still did even in 1.6, but the farther people get with CP, the worse it gets.

Why, you ask?
1) When you gain A LOT of CP, you get too much resource regeneration, healing, damage, damage mitigation, without any need for focusing on a particular thing. Without 200 CP or more, on the other hand, some builds really aren't viable. My friends and I do want to have build diversity.
2) We want people to be roughly on the same level so that their gear choice and skill matters, not just some *passives* that they happen to have.
3) Good players who don't have many CP due to RL commitments feel more and more demotivated by the constantly widening gap in what they are able to do compared to their friends, simply due to passive points.

And then there's the fact that we'd also love to have some new blood in our guild, so encouraging new players to play is, you know, good, too.

The idea that all good and active players would love the new CP system is simply NOT TRUE. You do need some CP in order to have viable small group builds, but towards the end, the CP passives make you stronger than an Emperor. That does not lead to fair or fun fights. 3600 CP vs 3600 CP player fights aren't fun either, we did test them on the PTS.

Additionally... I wish that those in charge of the combat skills in PvP would take the time to talk and really listen to some of the best of their respective classes. Many of them belong to the crossfaction dueling guilds on the EU and NA megaservers. For EU, the people to contact for more information are people like @LegendaryMage and @Themdogesbite .

* What I mean by this is that people with over 360 CP gained would still be able to play in the campaign as long as the character they were going to enter the campaign with would only have 360 CP activated, not more.

GaldorP · July 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

This might be slightly off-topic, but why does Thaumaturge increase the damage on Lava Whip? The tooltop says it's fire damage. Does that mean both Thaumaturge and Elemental Expert increase the damage of the same skill?

Edit: Based on some testing, I don't think the damage of Lava Whip increases with more points in Thaumaturge, but your max Magicka is increased for each point spent in the Mage which also increases the damage of all skills that scale with Magicka.

Because it increases spell damage. Lava whip scales off of spell damage and elemental damage.

Actually, Thaumaturge doesn't increase spell damage, it only increases damage of the *magic damage* type.

Each damage effect in ESO belongs to one of 7 types: physical, magic, flame, frost, shock, poison, or disease (unresistable damage from glyphs has no type it's a fixed amount of health that's deducted from the target).

Lava Whip (unmorphed) deals *flame damage* so Elemental Expert increases its damage, but Thaumaturge doesn't.
See the testing I did here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2035370/#Comment_2035370