Why does everyone want to be equal?

Azalin76

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

For the same reason steroids are illegal in progessional sports, and you get kicked out of a badeball game for putting too much pine tar on your bat.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Thalmont

Just add a PvP campaign that doesn't have CP active. Then the more casual players can do PvP without worry. Assuming everyone that's complaining are talking about PvP.

Akavir_Sentinel

Thalmont wrote: »

Just add a PvP campaign that doesn't have CP active. Then the more casual players can do PvP without worry. Assuming everyone that's complaining are talking about PvP.

That still wouldn't stop the whines. If you remove the CP from a campaign, then they would whine about players being VR14, or having better gear, or......you see where this is going.

OnThaLoose

It's because people naturally love to complain. It's human nature. Also, it's mostly pvp'ers.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

In reality a level 0 *** can get the jump on and kill elite navy SEALS with a level 2 handgun....

In reality a bad news bears team can annihilate world series caliber competition... and historically the worst team in baseball can get a trip to the world series with a wildcard win.

Stuff your 'but but but i spent moar time' whine.

Akavir_Sentinel

OnThaLoose wrote: »

It's because people naturally love to complain. It's human nature. Also, it's mostly pvp'ers.

^ QFT

Thalmont

I've been doing PvP against VR14 PC transfers since Console launch and haven't complained yet. People just need to enjoy the game and quit sweating the small things. Once I find myself complaining or not enjoying myself I move to a different game. I wish others would do the same.

VincentBlanquin

nobody knows how is game intended to work.... we will figure out next patch

LadyDestiny

Yeah, having the same convo in a couple other threads about this. What it boils down too is some people just want everything right now. They should go play a single player game because mmo's don't work this way. It takes time and dedication to obtain all the good stuff and can't expect it to be spoon fed right off the bat. In time they will catch up. Champion points don't go on forever and seriously, it takes a lot to really make any great difference.

Robotmafia

totally agree...

this is capitalism! deal with it

NotSo

We complain because most of us don't have nearly as much time to spend on progression as a lot of other players out there. That we would have to spend time off work/school/sleep to be able to stand up against some of the xp grinders. When a lot of us were performing just fine purely by skill, and now have no chance of catching up.

It's cramping our style.

We don't care that a level 20 has an advantage over a level 2, we can overcome that distance relatively quickly. But when we're sitting on max level waiting for the next big challenge and what happens is everybody else is getting a 1% boost every day that we log on. We fall behind, very quickly. And no amount of dedication is going to catch us up.

It's been 6 months(?) since the release of the Champion System, I have put in about 12 hours of play, because in just the first week I had already fallen so far behind. I literally have no motivation to pick the game back up.

And that's why we don't like it.

Yinmaigao

The biggest problem I have seen people have with the CS is the lack of content at max level to effectively gain CP, so everyone fights over the same few grind points if they want to stay "ahead of the curve".

Grinding for the sake of grinding to stay relevant is not fun for anyone.

Azalin76

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

Oh, stop being so melodramatic.

How is that being melodramatic? I was just reinforcing a point, it's obviously not what I believe should happen, it's the way some people seem to be acting right now.

Darkeus

cause people make excuses for their failures

P3ZZL3

@NotSo I think it's 2-3mths (March if memory serves)

danno8

Nobody complains about the standard 1- VR14 leveling process (much) because it has an end within a reasonable time frame. So you can reach where others are in a few weeks, give or take.

The CP system has the potential to have a gap of several YEARS before you can PvP on par with others or PvE with a chance of running end-game content with seasoned players (what guild will want to run trials with players who have 40 CP's when the rest of the guild has 1000+?) or can never hope to run the content balanced for 1000+ CP's.

Many see the system for what it is, a slow death system that shuts out new players, massively rewards mindless grinding and will eventually create several tiers of player groups that can not play with each other.

spoqster

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

The concept of levels in an RPG comes from a time when RPGs were played in your head with the aid of a character sheet, a pencil and a book. Levels are an abstraction of skill, and it was a brilliant idea back then.

When you play a combat focused online RPG that has a complex combat mechanic - like ESO - there is no need for levels any more. There is no need for the aforementioned abstraction, because you can actually practice and learn how to play better. The traditional RPG levels are thus an antiquated relic, that works decently well in single player games (but they usually have to scale the content somehow for the concept to be applicable - pretty idiotic), and it does not work at all in a competitive multiplayer game.

I am all for spicing up an online game with horizontal progression systems, such as skills and gear and vanity elements and convenience items, all of which you can earn by playing well. Hell, I'll be fine if you get vanity rewards for grinding.

But let us please accept the fact that it's not 1981 any longer, and that we can now have online RPGs without levels and without awarding no-lifers with hard-coded power advantages.

I wrote my own rant post here, btw: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192499/cp-debate-some-people-apparently-need-a-power-advantage-to-compensate-for-lack-of-skill

Cherryblossom

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

I don't think people mind Variability, what people are concerned about is a Level 10 can now be more powerful than a level 20!

I'm wearing on lvl15 NB the same gear (identical I made it) as my friends Lvl 20 NB, I have more health, stam, magic and crit than them! I only have 100+ CP.

If we play togeather he will never catch me, as I already have the lead.

You are also missing the point, in a MMO, if you have been playing since launch shouldn't mean you are god like to someone else who has done everything necessary to reach max level. This game has PVP and leader boards for PVE, these will be dominated by those with the most CP...

Whilst I don't necessarily dislike the CS, I'm not blind to see it's failings. There has to be a way for New Players when the reach max level to catch up and put them at least within spitting distance of those who have been playing for years..(if the game lasts that long!)

Azalin76

spoqster wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

The concept of levels in an RPG comes from a time when RPGs were played in your head with the aid of a character sheet, a pencil and a book. Levels are an abstraction of skill, and it was a brilliant idea back then.

When you play a combat focused online RPG that has a complex combat mechanic - like ESO - there is no need for levels any more. There is no need for the aforementioned abstraction, because you can actually practice and learn how to play better. The traditional RPG levels are thus an antiquated relic, that works decently well in single player games (but they usually have to scale the content somehow for the concept to be applicable - pretty idiotic), and it does not work at all in a competitive multiplayer game.

I am all for spicing up an online game with horizontal progression systems, such as skills and gear and vanity elements and convenience items, all of which you can earn by playing well. Hell, I'll be fine if you get vanity rewards for grinding.

But let us please accept the fact that it's not 1981 any longer, and that we can now have online RPGs without levels and without awarding no-lifers with hard-coded power advantages.

I wrote my own rant post here, btw: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192499/cp-debate-some-people-apparently-need-a-power-advantage-to-compensate-for-lack-of-skill

I used to be a huge D&D player and it was the same way back then as in eso, if I had a character that I used for 3 years who had seen a lot of battle and did a lot of questing and was max level, wouldnt it be expected that a character like that would be more powerful that another who just reached max level? This is the part that I don't understand, at max level it seems that everyone wants to be equal in power and have no progression after that. It just makes no sense.

Athas24

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

I'm a casual player but I'm going to go ahead and agree with the OP here 100%. Nice post man. People just love to Q_Q about any and everything.

Azalin76

danno8 wrote: »

Nobody complains about the standard 1- VR14 leveling process (much) because it has an end within a reasonable time frame. So you can reach where others are in a few weeks, give or take.

The CP system has the potential to have a gap of several YEARS before you can PvP on par with others or PvE with a chance of running end-game content with seasoned players (what guild will want to run trials with players who have 40 CP's when the rest of the guild has 1000+?) or can never hope to run the content balanced for 1000+ CP's.

Many see the system for what it is, a slow death system that shuts out new players, massively rewards mindless grinding and will eventually create several tiers of player groups that can not play with each other.

What are the odds that these hard core raid guilds would even let anyone in anyway? Look at how WoW is run. The best raid guilds only accept those with super high gear levels and they test them on training dummies for dps. Even after all that they may have to show up every raid night and sit and wait and hope that someone doesn't show up so they even have a spot in the raid. It's not the CP system it's just the way most games are now and it's sad.

BloodWolfe

NotSo wrote: »

We complain because most of us don't have nearly as much time to spend on progression as a lot of other players out there. That we would have to spend time off work/school/sleep to be able to stand up against some of the xp grinders. When a lot of us were performing just fine purely by skill, and now have no chance of catching up.

It's cramping our style.

We don't care that a level 20 has an advantage over a level 2, we can overcome that distance relatively quickly. But when we're sitting on max level waiting for the next big challenge and what happens is everybody else is getting a 1% boost every day that we log on. We fall behind, very quickly. And no amount of dedication is going to catch us up.

It's been 6 months(?) since the release of the Champion System, I have put in about 12 hours of play, because in just the first week I had already fallen so far behind. I literally have no motivation to pick the game back up.

And that's why we don't like it.

Then an RPG is not for you! You get what you invest into the game. Less time = less progression so why should you have the same as someone who has no life and spends 12 hours a day as opposed to 12 hours per month for example? 12 hours per month should not have the same progression as someone playing 12 hours per day, or per week even. It's not how RPG's and especially MMORPG's work, they require time investment and if you don't have it that is fine but don't whine about it, rather just enjoy the game the best you can.

I barely have play time (1 hour per day at best) but I am enjoying the questing and levelling experience at my own pace. Does the thought of VR levels and CP seem daunting? Absolutely, but whatever I will make the best of it because I don't expect to have the same progression, skill points, equipment, etc... as someone who spends several hours more per day playing than what I play.

Even COD requires some little bit of time investment, you don't have all guns, attachments and stuff immediately and have to start at the bottom and work your way up. Sure, more skill will rank you up faster but either way you're still at a disadvantage for a short time but COD isn't an RPG and RPG's have always required a larger time investment than a FPS.

People just have no patience these days.

Mitchblue

Simple, someone who plays 12 hours or 1000 hours should be able to hone their skills more than someone that play's just a few. But if the 1000 hour guy is just average and the 300 hour guy is very good, the 1000 hour guy shouldn't be better just because he played more..

spoqster

Azalin76 wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

The concept of levels in an RPG comes from a time when RPGs were played in your head with the aid of a character sheet, a pencil and a book. Levels are an abstraction of skill, and it was a brilliant idea back then.

When you play a combat focused online RPG that has a complex combat mechanic - like ESO - there is no need for levels any more. There is no need for the aforementioned abstraction, because you can actually practice and learn how to play better. The traditional RPG levels are thus an antiquated relic, that works decently well in single player games (but they usually have to scale the content somehow for the concept to be applicable - pretty idiotic), and it does not work at all in a competitive multiplayer game.

I am all for spicing up an online game with horizontal progression systems, such as skills and gear and vanity elements and convenience items, all of which you can earn by playing well. Hell, I'll be fine if you get vanity rewards for grinding.

But let us please accept the fact that it's not 1981 any longer, and that we can now have online RPGs without levels and without awarding no-lifers with hard-coded power advantages.

I wrote my own rant post here, btw: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192499/cp-debate-some-people-apparently-need-a-power-advantage-to-compensate-for-lack-of-skill

I used to be a huge D&D player and it was the same way back then as in eso, if I had a character that I used for 3 years who had seen a lot of battle and did a lot of questing and was max level, wouldnt it be expected that a character like that would be more powerful that another who just reached max level? This is the part that I don't understand, at max level it seems that everyone wants to be equal in power and have no progression after that. It just makes no sense.

Thanks for this comment @Azalin76! Let me elaborate.

Yes, back then the levels were the abstraction of the power your character gained while you played him for three years without ever lifting an axe. During these three years the character got a lot of fighting practice, without you getting any, and this progress needed to be represented somehow.

Now the situation is different. Now you, yes YOU as a player, actually get to pick up the axe. If you play ESO for 3 years, and fight and fight and fight, you will get better and better at choosing the right skills for your playstyle, you will get better at executing your skill rotations, you will get better at dodging/blocking and at tactical group play. And while you get better at these things, your commander will get better at commanding and your whole guild will get better at playing as a group. So after three years you will have gotten a lot better as a player and your group will have gotten a lot better as a group. That is what real progress is. There is no need for hard-coded power advantages.

delphwind_ESO

I agree.

To those that want a non vertical progression system please see GW2 or pretty much any shooter type game. There is a niche for you, but this is not it.

Creating another PvP campaign will only split the already dwindling player base.

Be careful what you wish for, if you yell loud enough you just may see results that you did not expect ... like a dead game.

Faulgor

Azalin76 wrote: »

If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it?

No, it's not.

It's not that time investment in the game should not be rewarded, it's about the scale of the gap this investment creates. Different people might find different amounts appropriate, but I have never seen an MMO with such an outrageously long grind to create a maxed out character.

Bromburak

There is a gray area too and apparently its being ignored by yourself as well.

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

There is a gray area too and apparently "they" including your self can't see it.

Azalin76

Mitchblue wrote: »

Simple, someone who plays 12 hours or 1000 hours should be able to hone their skills more than someone that play's just a few. But if the 1000 hour guy is just average and the 300 hour guy is very good, the 1000 hour guy shouldn't be better just because he played more..

I don't see it as that the average guy is better because he played more, I see it as he is better because he earned more. After all just like in life time spent is equal to time earned.

Pman85

When everything is equal, it is easier to showcase or judge by skill alone. CP system skews that to some points