bowmanz607 wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

I dont know what the demand would be like for this, but what about a non-vet campaign that allows champion points and one that does not. again, not sure if there would be enough demand for this but a thought.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

You may have well just titled this 'Champion points and the future of pvp' period. Same issues.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

Woman wrote: »

Deltia wrote: »

To the OP,

I like the passion you feel for non vet (or lowbie) PvP. This was a great place to train new players in PvP without them feeling they have to be Alliance Rank 10 Proxy Det spammers. Vet PvP is a slow grind to start feeling powerful, but in lowbie, you can react and not die instantly.

Regarding the CP, I've been on the other side of this, meaning enjoying the massive boost in regeneration, block cost, etc. I felt like a walking god when I had 250+ and people didn't have any. It's not good for the game honestly.

I absolutely love lowbie PvP and wish it had zero CP. Of maybe a second campaign without CP.

Another thing I want to mention, is additional character slots. I have eight VR 14 characters and miss training new guildies in lowbie PvP because its not fun walking around at level 13 getting proxy det for 25k health. The most fun I've ever had was in lowbie PvP even though I benefited directly from CP.

Lastly, I know your passion and the devs as well. They are looking and working out options to make this system a lot better. Great job testing, the math is real.

Thanks for the great thoughts! You should come back to BWB :P I agree about character slots. I recently had to delete 2 vet characters so I could continue to play in BWB. I'm not gonna lie, I would pay quite a bit for extra slots in the crown store.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

I have said from the very beginning the CPs in the nonvet campaign did not belong as it was counter-intuitive to the whole purpose of the campaign. With this I agree with the OP 100%.

But, I am not sure a non-CP standard campaign is a good idea. This is another "band-aid" fix that does not address the core of what I and many others have maintained about the champion system in the first place: an ever-widening gap between players who nuke zombies for 8 hours a day and those who do not. That's the problem. If you create a non CP-campaign, well that's fine in theory, but what happens if my guild, my friends, and the people I want to compete against do not play on it? Then the problem doesn't go away.

I understand that CPs are not in your realm of responsibility Mr Wheeler and it is unfortunate that you have to deal with the problems that system creates. Rather than try to come up with creative solutions to solve the VR + CP unholy mixture that was thrown upon your lap, remind the folks who are in charge of that system that every half-hour that goes by, some zealous people get a champion point. Something needs to be done now...not in six weeks. Correction: something needed to be done months ago.

as i mentioned above yours. What about the players that just reached vet? regardless if the CP system was not being exloited but used right. Would it not be beneficail to players who have just reached vet and are trying to earn champion points? These players can still be at a huge disadvantage even with the system used correctly. I think a campaign for players that have leveled out of non-vet but not quite ready for vet w/ champs would be greatly appreciative of it. I do agree that the abuse of the system needs to be addressed but the overall system and how it is suppose to operate is a great progression system for this game that was missing pre-1.6. Although it can be seen as a band-aid it is also beneficial to the types of players i mentioned. As i also mentioned above, there are players that as soon as they level out they start another character b/c of the vet gap. that gap will still be there w/o people grinding zombies.

Joy_Division wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

I have said from the very beginning the CPs in the nonvet campaign did not belong as it was counter-intuitive to the whole purpose of the campaign. With this I agree with the OP 100%.

But, I am not sure a non-CP standard campaign is a good idea. This is another "band-aid" fix that does not address the core of what I and many others have maintained about the champion system in the first place: an ever-widening gap between players who nuke zombies for 8 hours a day and those who do not. That's the problem. If you create a non CP-campaign, well that's fine in theory, but what happens if my guild, my friends, and the people I want to compete against do not play on it? Then the problem doesn't go away.

I understand that CPs are not in your realm of responsibility Mr Wheeler and it is unfortunate that you have to deal with the problems that system creates. Rather than try to come up with creative solutions to solve the VR + CP unholy mixture that was thrown upon your lap, remind the folks who are in charge of that system that every half-hour that goes by, some zealous people get a champion point. Something needs to be done now...not in six weeks. Correction: something needed to be done months ago.

as i mentioned above yours. What about the players that just reached vet? regardless if the CP system was not being exloited but used right. Would it not be beneficail to players who have just reached vet and are trying to earn champion points? These players can still be at a huge disadvantage even with the system used correctly. I think a campaign for players that have leveled out of non-vet but not quite ready for vet w/ champs would be greatly appreciative of it. I do agree that the abuse of the system needs to be addressed but the overall system and how it is suppose to operate is a great progression system for this game that was missing pre-1.6. Although it can be seen as a band-aid it is also beneficial to the types of players i mentioned. As i also mentioned above, there are players that as soon as they level out they start another character b/c of the vet gap. that gap will still be there w/o people grinding zombies.

I don't see how this solves the problem. Let's say you are a freshly minted VR1 with 1 champion point. I am a VR14 with 309 Champion Points. Then there is GrindZealot's VR14 with 750 CPs. So you enter this hypothetical non-CP vet campaign because We are too far ahead of you. Exactly when do you "catch-up" and become "ready" to join the regular campaigns? You can not gain CPs faster than me. True, yours may be more efficient but good luck ever competing against me, let alone GrindZealot, on a even-playing field.

Something else to consider is whether or not it is healthy to segregate the player base. Let's face it, the 4 campaigns we have are not exactly bustling with activity. There are nights that go by that we go to campaign to campaign just looking for a decent fight. Now we want to dilute and split the playerbase more? As it is, there are friends on my contact list that I no longer play with anymore because they are exclusively play BwB. That's fine and good for them that they enjoy the experience, but this is an MMO, a social game, and I'd prefer to remove the cliques, barriers, and games within games that separate us.

It's funny how in this thread people are saying that CPs "don't belong" in PvP and are somehow PvE things. No they aren't. Trust me, many PvErs see CPs are an unhealthy influence that problematize healthy competition. CPs were designed to be an integral part of the ESO and their intent was to be a progression system that eventually replaced VR ranks. If we are going to have campaigns and trials without CPs to promote fair competition...why bother having an unfair progression system in the first place? No band-air fixes please.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.

syko809 wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

Introduction:

We all have different reasons for loving Non-Vet PvP, but they mostly revolve around keeping the purity of TESO’s brilliant PVP system that we originally fell in love with during the game’s launch. In the non-vet pvp campaigns like Blackwater Blade, players don’t have the skills or resources yet to create both the lag and exploiting issues we have in the vet campaigns. Additionally, the battle leveling system there means that most sets are ineffective (since all players have flat max resources, regen and weapon/spell power). Succeeding in Non-Vet PvP relies on the individual player’s skill set, rather than just their build or what guild they happen to have gotten into.

In Blackwater Blade, new players do not get one-shotted, no one is unkillable and everyone has an equal chance at success. The result of this is exciting 24/7 action that revolves around the clock. Players from all alliances care about the entire picture of the campaign. They want their alliance to win, they want to get emperor for more than buffs, and to get scrolls for more than just a tower farm.

Non-Vet PVP is the living embodiment of what the developers and designers intended for TESO AvA to be. Many of us have stayed loyal to this game from day one because this campaign was introduced. I’ve gotten every skyshard in this game, completed every quest, every HM trial and I’ve never had as much fun as I do in Blackwater Blade.

Non-Vet Cyrodiil is truly large scale PvP at its finest, and its existence is in jeopardy.

The Problem:

Everything that I stated above is under threat by Champion Points. CP counters the entire system revolved around the equal opportunity that Battle Level creates. It was not an enormous problem until players began to earn 200+ champion points, and now some players have surpassed 500 points- making this problem a dire one. For those who disagree with the use of CP in the campaign, we still feel forced to use it in order to compete and help our alliance against those who do.This is a threatening cycle that can only be stopped by ZOS.


Just to demonstrate how significant an impact CP has on one’s build in Non-Vet PvP, here are the results of some tests I ran.

Analysis

We tested CP in BwB in three ways. The first test, the control, was to show the pure battle level damage with 0 champion points, the second to show the effect of Spell Erosion, and the third to test Thaumaturge.

The first test is simply to show what a player with 0 Champion Points can expect to do against a player who also has 0 Champion Points and act as a control.

TEST 2’s results were concerning, with only one player having CP slotted, to show the effect that CP has on a player without any. As you can see, with 93 points (23.8% spell penetration increase) into [Spell Erosion] the damage difference between the two is quite large. A nearly 200 point damage difference in every whip compared to the control test.

TEST 3’s results, while it showed less of a difference between TEST 2 and the control, there is still a moderate damage difference between a player with CP and one without when we slot 93 (23.8%) points into [Thaumaturge]. This difference will only increase as CP is slotted into different areas as well as [Thaumaturge].

---

[Attacking player: 5% sharpened sword + shield || Lady boon || Magnus 5pc / Torug’s 4pc]
[Target Player: Warrior Boon || Seducer 5pc || No Resistance Modifications]

TEST 1 - 0CP in all categories
TEST 2 - 93 CP (23.8%) in Spell Erosion and nothing else
TEST 3 - 93 CP (23.8%) in Thaumaturge and nothing else

Target player remained at 0 CP during all tests and had no resistance beyond battle level scaling.

---

Please note that these tests are only to show DPS, not the difference that Champion Points makes to spell cost, roll dodge cost, block cost, or anything other than just pure damage.

New players come to Non-Vet campaigns like Blackwater Blade to compete on an equal playing field. This was literally the entire purpose of the campaign’s creation. How can a new but talented player genuinely compete with a mage that has 20% extra Magicka regen, 20% extra reduced spell cost, increase block mitigation, dodge roll cost decrease, increased spell resistance, armor penetration, elemental damage, healing received, etc… What is the purpose of improving him/herself in the campaign if they can only compete once they become a vet? In which case they can’t even play in the campaign anymore.


The Solution:

The obvious solution is to completely remove CP from Non-Vet PvP campaigns. I understand that this might be technically challenging to do so, thus I would suggest implementing Battle Leveling to CP. Give everyone a flat 150 CP when they travel to Cyrodiil (non-vet), just like the game gives players extra resources, regen & spell/weapon power. Allow players to administer their flat number of CP according to their personal preference, thus they can still enjoy the fun & diverse Champion System the developers have created. When a player first enters Blackwater, they see their resource bars expand through Battle Leveling, giving them a taste of what’s to come once they achieve max level. A continuation of this idea with Champion Points would only further a new player’s excitement to continue playing and get to TESO’s Endgame, without breaking the balance of the campaign. This change will sustain the core philosophy behind Non-Vet PvP campaigns and keep its unique enjoyment intact.

Conclusion:

ZOS, I beg of you- please take these complaints seriously. I run a Non-Vet dueling guild and see the results of CP stacking first hand. Blackwater Blade has had many changes since it has been implemented, and while some of those changes have been major, they have still kept the core concept of the campaign unharmed. CP is the first time that this hidden jewel of TESO is under threat, and thus I felt the need to finally make a post about the subject.

tl;dr: Champion Points were implemented to replace the Veteran System in TESO. Thus, it’s only logical to conclude that Non-Vet PvP should be No-CP PvP.
Honestly, does anything else make sense?

Thank you to @IHateReloads, @Undistortion, @Gallifreyy, for your help in testing.

Woman wrote: »

Introduction:

We all have different reasons for loving Non-Vet PvP, but they mostly revolve around keeping the purity of TESO’s brilliant PVP system that we originally fell in love with during the game’s launch. In the non-vet pvp campaigns like Blackwater Blade, players don’t have the skills or resources yet to create both the lag and exploiting issues we have in the vet campaigns. Additionally, the battle leveling system there means that most sets are ineffective (since all players have flat max resources, regen and weapon/spell power). Succeeding in Non-Vet PvP relies on the individual player’s skill set, rather than just their build or what guild they happen to have gotten into.

In Blackwater Blade, new players do not get one-shotted, no one is unkillable and everyone has an equal chance at success. The result of this is exciting 24/7 action that revolves around the clock. Players from all alliances care about the entire picture of the campaign. They want their alliance to win, they want to get emperor for more than buffs, and to get scrolls for more than just a tower farm.

Non-Vet PVP is the living embodiment of what the developers and designers intended for TESO AvA to be. Many of us have stayed loyal to this game from day one because this campaign was introduced. I’ve gotten every skyshard in this game, completed every quest, every HM trial and I’ve never had as much fun as I do in Blackwater Blade.

Non-Vet Cyrodiil is truly large scale PvP at its finest, and its existence is in jeopardy.

The Problem:

Everything that I stated above is under threat by Champion Points. CP counters the entire system revolved around the equal opportunity that Battle Level creates. It was not an enormous problem until players began to earn 200+ champion points, and now some players have surpassed 500 points- making this problem a dire one. For those who disagree with the use of CP in the campaign, we still feel forced to use it in order to compete and help our alliance against those who do.This is a threatening cycle that can only be stopped by ZOS.


Just to demonstrate how significant an impact CP has on one’s build in Non-Vet PvP, here are the results of some tests I ran.

Analysis

We tested CP in BwB in three ways. The first test, the control, was to show the pure battle level damage with 0 champion points, the second to show the effect of Spell Erosion, and the third to test Thaumaturge.

The first test is simply to show what a player with 0 Champion Points can expect to do against a player who also has 0 Champion Points and act as a control.

TEST 2’s results were concerning, with only one player having CP slotted, to show the effect that CP has on a player without any. As you can see, with 93 points (23.8% spell penetration increase) into [Spell Erosion] the damage difference between the two is quite large. A nearly 200 point damage difference in every whip compared to the control test.

TEST 3’s results, while it showed less of a difference between TEST 2 and the control, there is still a moderate damage difference between a player with CP and one without when we slot 93 (23.8%) points into [Thaumaturge]. This difference will only increase as CP is slotted into different areas as well as [Thaumaturge].

---

[Attacking player: 5% sharpened sword + shield || Lady boon || Magnus 5pc / Torug’s 4pc]
[Target Player: Warrior Boon || Seducer 5pc || No Resistance Modifications]

TEST 1 - 0CP in all categories
TEST 2 - 93 CP (23.8%) in Spell Erosion and nothing else
TEST 3 - 93 CP (23.8%) in Thaumaturge and nothing else

Target player remained at 0 CP during all tests and had no resistance beyond battle level scaling.

---

Please note that these tests are only to show DPS, not the difference that Champion Points makes to spell cost, roll dodge cost, block cost, or anything other than just pure damage.

New players come to Non-Vet campaigns like Blackwater Blade to compete on an equal playing field. This was literally the entire purpose of the campaign’s creation. How can a new but talented player genuinely compete with a mage that has 20% extra Magicka regen, 20% extra reduced spell cost, increase block mitigation, dodge roll cost decrease, increased spell resistance, armor penetration, elemental damage, healing received, etc… What is the purpose of improving him/herself in the campaign if they can only compete once they become a vet? In which case they can’t even play in the campaign anymore.


The Solution:

The obvious solution is to completely remove CP from Non-Vet PvP campaigns. I understand that this might be technically challenging to do so, thus I would suggest implementing Battle Leveling to CP. Give everyone a flat 150 CP when they travel to Cyrodiil (non-vet), just like the game gives players extra resources, regen & spell/weapon power. Allow players to administer their flat number of CP according to their personal preference, thus they can still enjoy the fun & diverse Champion System the developers have created. When a player first enters Blackwater, they see their resource bars expand through Battle Leveling, giving them a taste of what’s to come once they achieve max level. A continuation of this idea with Champion Points would only further a new player’s excitement to continue playing and get to TESO’s Endgame, without breaking the balance of the campaign. This change will sustain the core philosophy behind Non-Vet PvP campaigns and keep its unique enjoyment intact.

Conclusion:

ZOS, I beg of you- please take these complaints seriously. I run a Non-Vet dueling guild and see the results of CP stacking first hand. Blackwater Blade has had many changes since it has been implemented, and while some of those changes have been major, they have still kept the core concept of the campaign unharmed. CP is the first time that this hidden jewel of TESO is under threat, and thus I felt the need to finally make a post about the subject.

tl;dr: Champion Points were implemented to replace the Veteran System in TESO. Thus, it’s only logical to conclude that Non-Vet PvP should be No-CP PvP.
Honestly, does anything else make sense?

Thank you to @IHateReloads, @Undistortion, @Gallifreyy, for your help in testing.

It is called grind the living he'll out off the game like most people do and if you don't have the time to put into the game like other people do "who you might call no live or what ever" thenESO is not for you. Because I played a vet campaign since launch and yes it was bad but guess what I did, got off the campaign until I got a higher level vet character and some CP did some researc on how to spend CP, then I went back into the vet campaign and guess what happen I was kicking some people's butts... Soooo how about ya all follow this example and stop coming in here and complaining about something you can fix on your on easily. Before you guys mess up the game for a lot of people

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Just to take this a step further, any opinions on having a non-CP standard Campaign are also welcome in this thread. EG. One that allows veterans and non-veterans, but no CP abilities.