Why do people want veteran ranks removed?

Guppet · March 2015

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Vertical progression is a never ending treadmill and people are getting tired of them.

They already said all new DLC content will scale to your level. Whole world should scale.

It's not content scaling to you, it's you scaling to content (think Cyrodill). That's the only way you can group with friends of different levels, which is the intention. It also make chasing as many CP as you can rather pointless, since you will always be scaled enough to complete any DLC you buy.

Dreamo84 · March 2015

Guppet wrote: »

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Vertical progression is a never ending treadmill and people are getting tired of them.

They already said all new DLC content will scale to your level. Whole world should scale.

It's not content scaling to you, it's you scaling to content (think Cyrodill). That's the only way you can group with friends of different levels, which is the intention. It also make chasing as many CP as you can rather pointless, since you will always be scaled enough to complete any DLC you buy.

Actually, the way they described it was content scaling to you. They specifically gave the example that a mob would do lvl 10 equivalent dmg to a lvl 10 player and 50 to a lvl 50 player.

Think more like Skyrim in that respect!

Seraphyel · March 2015

hamon wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

again a deliberate ploy to get as much time out of as little content as possible.

And the champion system is exponentially worse.

yep, but even worse they didnt remove one system of slow grind, they atted 2 at the same time.... horrible design.

Without adding new content - that's the best thing about all of that.

Guppet · March 2015

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Vertical progression is a never ending treadmill and people are getting tired of them.

They already said all new DLC content will scale to your level. Whole world should scale.

It's not content scaling to you, it's you scaling to content (think Cyrodill). That's the only way you can group with friends of different levels, which is the intention. It also make chasing as many CP as you can rather pointless, since you will always be scaled enough to complete any DLC you buy.

Actually, the way they described it was content scaling to you. They specifically gave the example that a mob would do lvl 10 equivalent dmg to a lvl 10 player and 50 to a lvl 50 player.

Think more like Skyrim in that respect!

I don see how they can do that, if you are grouped with different level players, it's going to be interesting though, however they do it.

Kingdinguhling · March 2015

There is a lot of QQ in this thread over

- "They are giving everyone max lvl and me nothing and im VR14, now I have no quests to get XP"

They gave you 70 Champion points for your VR ranks do the math.... that's a lot of XP.

There is a lot of benefit to opening up the options for players to gain champion points post 50.

Now you can do what you want .... Grind, Veteran Dungeons, Trials, DSA, PVP and Questing to gain champion points assuming they implement a balanced bar of XP gain across these platforms.

I think in the long run this will help pre-50 dungeons and make the areas more populated because people will be making new characters because it wont be as horrible to get to cap.

Soon you will see players will 4-5 alts and the same amount of champion points across all of them.

To say you get nothing for your troubles of grinding through silver and gold is a lie.

As for implementation I am worried how they are gonna scale Trials and Dragonstar and Veteran dungeons and I'm also worried about what is gonna be come of the silver and gold zones. I hope they make good use of these areas.

But to say someone has to go through this to be my equal is wrong....

cap was intended to be 50 for a reason. that was when everyone should be able to go into any of these areas and be competitive. not ideal but competitive.

Champion points create a very good span between players that put the time in and players that have just reached 50. maybe even too big of a span honestly. So being worried about being too weak is just whiney.

1-50 is the story line and all the required dungeons. I can see if they added a wealth of playable content other than Quests between VR1-14 but that's not the route they took.

This system will work and everyone will still be in there same category of players. good players that put time in will still have way more than starting players or fresh 50s.

Seraphyel · March 2015

The cap is not 50, it's 50 VR14. The difference between 50 VR1 and VR14 is MASSIVE. And no, it's not 20 or 30 Champion Points difference.

I don't see anybody making alts with this system. It's hard to get one character to VR14 but to repeat all of that torture with an alt? Even 1-50 is no fun when you already know EVERYTHING.

Allelya · March 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

Did ZOS post that the removal of VR will set the level cap for the entire lifespan of the game to 50? The removal of VR simply makes repeating two other factions worth of content irrelevant for beginning endgame - for the time being.

This will get lost in the 15+ pages but,

I may only be low level and I may not understand the plight of those grinding out their veteran ranks, however when I look at the map, I see many areas unfinished/unopened to us. Could these be filled in later for higher leveling? Take WoW for example. The growth of WoW where leveling is concerned was decent. Top level began at 60, I believe. Then it was extended to 70 with more content added, more zones. So on and so forth. They could easily do that with ESO and prolong the life of the game.

Unfortunately, there will always be other issues such as balancing of classes and bugs, to which ZoS has disrespectfully responded: "We know." They owe their players much more than that.

Seraphyel · March 2015

I think Zenimax said all of the upcoming DLCs will be available for every kind of player (lvl 12, 23, 35, 47, VR2, VR14 etc.).

I don't know if Zenimax ever said something about expansions.

Dazin93 · March 2015

Xabien wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

WhiskyBob wrote: »

I can imagine why people hate Veteran system but honestly, I can't imagine how Zenimax will pull removal of that system off. Considering how "awesome" was the champion system implementation the complete overhaul of itemization and zone scaling seems to be out of their mental capabilities.

Agreed. It took them 5+ months to develop the champion system which mostly was just a reworking of attributes and existing game mechanics. I can't imagine either how long it could take them to itemize and scale zones, dungeons, trials, and other encounters.

This is why from a monetary standpoint I am doubtful the vet system will ever go away. It doesn't make sense to devote that much time to it when their team could be working on items in the cash shop and dlc's that will actually make them some money. Money is a commodity that apparently they don't have enough of and I doubt removing the vet system would give them much of a return on their investment.

From a monetary perspective it really depends on how much they think getting rid of the VR system would improve player retention. My guess is it would improve quite a bit.

Possibly, but if it's the grind that is an issue I think it's more likely they will just rename it and adjust the experience required for "levels 51-64". That would be far easier and less time consuming. Not to mention, ESO suffers from a lack of content so it doesn't make sense to me for them to completely remove the content (and the added playtime) that the vet levels bring.

Guppet · March 2015

Dazin93 wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

WhiskyBob wrote: »

I can imagine why people hate Veteran system but honestly, I can't imagine how Zenimax will pull removal of that system off. Considering how "awesome" was the champion system implementation the complete overhaul of itemization and zone scaling seems to be out of their mental capabilities.

Agreed. It took them 5+ months to develop the champion system which mostly was just a reworking of attributes and existing game mechanics. I can't imagine either how long it could take them to itemize and scale zones, dungeons, trials, and other encounters.

This is why from a monetary standpoint I am doubtful the vet system will ever go away. It doesn't make sense to devote that much time to it when their team could be working on items in the cash shop and dlc's that will actually make them some money. Money is a commodity that apparently they don't have enough of and I doubt removing the vet system would give them much of a return on their investment.

From a monetary perspective it really depends on how much they think getting rid of the VR system would improve player retention. My guess is it would improve quite a bit.

Possibly, but if it's the grind that is an issue I think it's more likely they will just rename it and adjust the experience required for "levels 51-64". That would be far easier and less time consuming. Not to mention, ESO suffers from a lack of content so it doesn't make sense to me for them to completely remove the content (and the added playtime) that the vet levels bring.

That would only work if they changed the levels of the main quest line. Killing the end baddy a third of the way through the level process, feels about as right as allowing goats to compete in the Olympics.

GreySix · March 2015

Guppet wrote: »

That would only work if they changed the levels of the main quest line. Killing the end baddy a third of the way through the level process, feels about as right as allowing goats to compete in the Olympics.

Indeed. You level up to become the ultimate hero and kill the main threat to Nirn, only to then be transmogrified into the ultimate newbie slaughtered by a few mudcrabs in veteran zones.

Dazin93 · March 2015

GreySix wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

That would only work if they changed the levels of the main quest line. Killing the end baddy a third of the way through the level process, feels about as right as allowing goats to compete in the Olympics.

Indeed. You level up to become the ultimate hero and kill the main threat to Nirn, only to then be transmogrified into the ultimate newbie slaughtered by a few mudcrabs in veteran zones.

Sounds about right to me.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

Dazin93 wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

WhiskyBob wrote: »

I can imagine why people hate Veteran system but honestly, I can't imagine how Zenimax will pull removal of that system off. Considering how "awesome" was the champion system implementation the complete overhaul of itemization and zone scaling seems to be out of their mental capabilities.

Agreed. It took them 5+ months to develop the champion system which mostly was just a reworking of attributes and existing game mechanics. I can't imagine either how long it could take them to itemize and scale zones, dungeons, trials, and other encounters.

This is why from a monetary standpoint I am doubtful the vet system will ever go away. It doesn't make sense to devote that much time to it when their team could be working on items in the cash shop and dlc's that will actually make them some money. Money is a commodity that apparently they don't have enough of and I doubt removing the vet system would give them much of a return on their investment.

From a monetary perspective it really depends on how much they think getting rid of the VR system would improve player retention. My guess is it would improve quite a bit.

Possibly, but if it's the grind that is an issue I think it's more likely they will just rename it and adjust the experience required for "levels 51-64". That would be far easier and less time consuming. Not to mention, ESO suffers from a lack of content so it doesn't make sense to me for them to completely remove the content (and the added playtime) that the vet levels bring.

VR is a rehash though, and it's entirely transparent. 1-50 is more than enough for a quest grind, we complete the story in that time too. Any more is total overkill. They did on release lack other things to do, but now there's loads, and if they add more, we won't need to rinse/repeat other faction's stories to make up for lack of content.

Arato · March 2015

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Everyone I know who left the game left because of Vet Ranks. They all finished the main story after a month or two, enjoyed it very much, decided to jump into endgame and ... realized they had another 2 or 3 months of questing/grinding/PvP/etc., before they hit the real level cap.

I did not mind the Veteran Ranks. It took me almost 9 months to get to VR14. I was in no hurry. Did not really care if I was not maxed out. There always seemed to be plenty to do, both solo and grouped, even when I was at VR4 or VR7 or some other non-max level.

But for a lot of people, getting to that max level is a huge deal. They feel that when two max level players face off in PvP or on a leaderboard, the difference is skill. Whereas when you are not max level, they feel that they may be just as skilled a player, maybe even more skilled, but that is obscured by the stat gap between them and max level.

So you have a difficult balancing act. You want to make sure that a guy who just subscribed today, no matter how skilled he is, cannot just waltz into Cyrodiil and crown himself emperor 5 minutes after creating his character. But you don't want such a long road to endgame that people get discouraged and quit (which I saw a lot of among my real life friends).

From my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, the VR experience skewed too far to the "takes too long" side of the above paragraph. The hope is that the Level 50 max + Champion Point system will find a happy medium between "too easy to reach endgame" and "too long to reach endgame".

Time will tell if they get it right.

Because it just starts to get long in the tooth.

Without veteran ranks, once you hit level 50 and finish the main storyline you have the OPTION of doing the other factions's storylines, or you can PVP, or do veteran dungeons, or do craglorn.

WITH Veteran ranks, if you try to do anything but do the silver/gold quests, you'll find yourself underpowered for the content, if the mobs are significantly higher veteran rank than you, say rank 11+, you'll begin to have random miss chances thrown into your combat, not to mention you can't wear as good of gear, and have lower attributes.

So silver/gold feels almost necessary where without veteran ranks it'll be optional, because you'll be able to wear the same gear and have the same base attributes (though champion points will play a factor, they won't be as much of one as random miss chance and the increased chance a mob will crit you). The only other real option to doing silver/ gold right now is either begging for groups to let you scale dungeons down to your level for pledges, or soul sucking mob grind for xp.

gurugeorgey · March 2015

hamon wrote: »

again a deliberate ploy to get as much time out of as little content as possible.

Erm, that's a bit unfair, the game has a huge amount of content by any measure, and more importantly it's consistently pretty good quality in terms of writing.

I don't see any problem in the vet idea as it was, it's just that they were thinking too much of the PvE casual player when they implemented it the way they did - understandably, because that's always the biggest part of the playerbase. But it sounds like they're going to be adjusting things in the right direction now.

RSram · March 2015

I played beta but only reached level 15, so I don't know what the level cap was back then. Did the beta go pass level 50?

Arato · March 2015

gurugeorgey wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

again a deliberate ploy to get as much time out of as little content as possible.

Erm, that's a bit unfair, the game has a huge amount of content by any measure, and more importantly it's consistently pretty good quality in terms of writing.

I don't see any problem in the vet idea as it was, it's just that they were thinking too much of the PvE casual player when they implemented it the way they did - understandably, because that's always the biggest part of the playerbase. But it sounds like they're going to be adjusting things in the right direction now.

I had friends who's favorite thing to do in MMO's is do group content and raids. When they got to VR1, and realized that they were only 1/3 of the way done with the solo grind, they lost interest.

At least at the time (I don't know how it is now since most the time I've been solo since they left) quests did not advance in groups so it was just solo questing, maybe you were in a "group" and got an xp bonus but you couldn't actually play together

Did they ever fix questing in groups or is it still just solo questing next to someone who's health bar you can see?

Seraphyel · March 2015

RSram wrote: »

I played beta but only reached level 15, so I don't know what the level cap was back then. Did the beta go pass level 50?

Yes, but there was a very harsh NDA on Veteran levels / zones and that's why really nobody knew how it would be.

NewBlacksmurf · March 2015

LonePirate wrote: »

I honestly do not understand the rationale for removing veteran ranks. Why are people salivating over and anticipating this change?

The game needs a vertical progression system, even if it is frozen for long periods of time such as with the current VR14 cap. It is impractical to leave the max level at 50 ad infinitum because the game will become static and not offer any progression - which is undesirable for its own reasons.

The current VR system is implemented and understood by most players. Plus, it allows for easy future expansions without radically overhauling the current system. If ZOS goes to all of the effort to remove veteran ranks, exactly how would the game expand in the future? ZOS would need to undo some, if not most of the work it would need to do in order to remove them in the first place. That's a waste of time.

With all of the far more important things ZOS needs to complete - Imperial City, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Spellcrafting, Housing, Consoles, Wrothgar, etc. - removing veteran ranks will only delay those far more important additions to the game. Aren't those things more important than removing veteran ranks?

I understand people may dislike all of the time and effort needed to reach the current max level; but this is a game that is not intended to be completed in a day or a week or even a month. Who wants to hit level 50 in Coldharbour and then never increase in level again despite the mountains of content that remains to be played after that point?

Removing veteran ranks makes absolutely no sense to me:

In short the game after the story has created a grinding gap before access to Craglorn and no other alternative other thanusing VR zone silver and gold quests as a vertical progression. This removes any desire to play another faction because it requires that we at least hunt for skill quests and shards.

When people say they want the VR levels removed, it's the silver, gold quests...the gap from 50 to VR10 that they want removed.

Ppl want to finish the main quest, get to 50 and then work on new stuff, not replay the game in other factions on all characters. At the very least, use cp levels and remove VR completely.

It's just an unnecessary time sink. If silver and gold quests were actually optional and Craglorn started at 50. It would make more sense.

VR levels shouldve been removed and CP should have given any VR character account the total CP equivalent to do for CP now at no max. This is a HUGE mistake by ZOS

Then the NPC could be level 60 (VR10) and this way 30-40 CP would make a character strong enough to play the content. I do feel we should work towards Craglorn but the silver and gold quests are not the way. Also, each new 50 should need to go through the same vertical grind. It literally creates huge gaps and offers less group opportunities for PvE and PvP

bbaxterd · March 2015

Veteran Levels are just bad design through and through. I think they wanted to offer players a way of seeing all the content on one character while simultaneously offering a non-gear progression system at endgame. Unfortunately, all they ended up creating was a boring mandatory grind that has been slowly strangling the endgame since launch. Most players aren't interested in repeating their leveling experience twice over after hitting 50. Many would rather start a new class and level that, something that is currently pointless with the VR14 wall.

I understand that some people like this, but that's what Champion Points are here for. If you want that Everquest like sense of constant leveling you get it through the Champion Point system. Meanwhile, everyone else gets to participate in the endgame without doubling their leveling time.

Ultimately, the game is going to be much healthier after this change with more people at endgame and more alts running through the lower level faction areas. The only disappointing element is that the change isn't here yet.

flubber77 · March 2015

HxC wrote: »

Have you level an Alt to VR14?
If not, you can't understand !

i do have 6vr14 and one vr3 going for vr14, and one ready to push. i still want that progression.

TS have a good point, if we stop at lvl 50 and dont get any progession after u have killed molag bal what is the point to do silver and gold? what will be the point to lock your self with a lvl 50 char when u can gain lvls and have fun? what abought new quest zones? just because someone are lazy and dont want to lvl more that 50lvls cant be a good reason?

Stay with veteran system and even go higher.

btw i do have pvp chars, trail chars and just for fun chars and will buy new character slot if i can ;P

Seraphyel · March 2015

flubber77 wrote: »

HxC wrote: »

Have you level an Alt to VR14?
If not, you can't understand !

i do have 6vr14 and one vr3 going for vr14, and one ready to push. i still want that progression.

TS have a good point, if we stop at lvl 50 and dont get any progession after u have killed molag bal what is the point to do silver and gold? what will be the point to lock your self with a lvl 50 char when u can gain lvls and have fun? what abought new quest zones? just because someone are lazy and dont want to lvl more that 50lvls cant be a good reason?

Stay with veteran system and even go higher.

btw i do have pvp chars, trail chars and just for fun chars and will buy new character slot if i can ;P

Silver & Gold are the issue, not only the Veteran Ranks.

The whole system behind 50+ is awfully designed. To remove VR won't help, they need to totally rework the Veteran Zones.

I can't understand how anyone can do that grind 6 or 7 times, that's insane.

VR leveling through Gold & Silver is even in the first run the most boring and worst progression system I've ever encountered.

Naor_Sarethi · March 2015

Silver and Gold made me lose all affection i had for this game. Up until 49 pvp and questing was fun and i was looking forward to more but what this game had become past v1 was just beyond disappointing. After a year of waiting i thought i'd come back to see how it looks like and i suppose it'll be another year or never. I am not wasting my time doing the silver /gold stuff just to get v14 and join a more or less deserted pvp that isn't even fun.
I'm out for now.

Anakee · June 2015

Jeez. After reading this whole thread it seems blatently obvious that they shouldnt remove vet ranks but rather..... Nerf the xp requirement, and just make the cap 64 to shut people up about the whole vet thing. Making it 50% of what it is now will be fine. Vet is also a gearcheck. Like all mmos at endgame. What happens when a fresh lvl 50 noob then starts queuing for content which vr14s have had to grind and gear up for, and are now pairing for vet dungeons with lvl 50 fresh players still in lvl 40-50 greens and blues? Removal this system will create a hole people cant seem to get their head around. Sure, vet level requirements suck, so, easy fix. Half the xp required. Makes levelling an alt fun again, removes the need of a complete endgame overhaul, frees up zos to work on new content and stops all the crying about vet xp req.
I never thought id see a day in mmos where people were asking level caps down, its insanity. The gear having scales 1-5, 3-5 etc is perfect how it is. Opposing faction areas going up 1 vet per zone, perfect. Its all fine. Xp nerf=happy people.

Elijah_Crow · June 2015

I would rather see gear based on Champion Rank after level 50. Gold and Silver should be optional and xp gain should be even based on however you want to spend your time (questing, PvP'ing, grinding, etc). Level 1-49 gear then champion Rank 1-50 be rank 1 gear, 50-100 champion points rank 2 gear or some such.

SkylarkAU · June 2015

Leave the vet ranks system in for all I care, just allow players who have reached VR14 to reroll new toons at VR1 in the same alliance.

mdhammond · June 2015

There is no problem with increasing caps as long as the developer does their job and adds enough content to keep players from having to mob grind or do repeatable quests, it's basic rpg I thougt, you increase the level cap then you've got to release sufficient content for people to level with.

Rinmaethodain · June 2015

Why people white about VR rank?

Because they rather grind 10 lvls in one zone gaining 1mil exp than grinding 1 lvl also in just 1 zone gaining 1 mil exp. They like big numbers and VR hurt their eyes. Im pretty sure that if instead of 1VR lvl we would have 5 regular lvls there would be less whining.

Also they want everything instantly, without any work, and it just pisses them off unearthly that someone who invested some time and put work into game is VR14 (by actually playing game, exploring and taking any oppurtunity to gain exp -> Like quests ) while they freshly after leaving first starte island are only lvl3 and they are like "gief me levels nao".

And what pisses them off mostly is that after spending 30 minutes in game they cant compete with someone who spend 3 months in game.

And what is the most simple solution their minds come to?

Here it comes:

"Because I dont want to play game, put my time in it, enjoy it and achieve something, i want EVERYONE to be DEGRADED to my lvl so I dont have to do anything, yet everyone are just like ME"

Such great thinking.

Same thing applies that every time they die by mudcrab, daedra, titan, baneking or maybe even fall damage the first thing is what? They instantly complain "Omgez, im pro, and i died, that thing is OP, nerf plox".

They dont even think for slightest moment "oh wow, i need to think before fight, maybe i need better buffs, i should collect those skyshards for more SP. Im a healer with light armors, i should find a buddy to help me or ask my guild. This zone is 10 lvls above me, its normal that i died". The first thing they assume that they are alpha and omega.

smokes · June 2015

why on earth was this thread necro'd

byrom101b16_ESO · June 2015

As someone who was interested in the game from long before it's release, who eagerly played the beta and grinded out the Cadwell's stuff pre-nerf, allow me to add my observations.

Intially, Zenimax intended to have just 1/3rd of the questing/levelling zones as available to each player - just your faction area. All other areas of Tamriel would behind invisible walls, never to be seen without alts.

There was a truly massive negative response to this - people wanted to be able to see all of Tamriel with each character, wanting the freedom to roam of the TES series (albeit that was per region ofc.).

Zenimax acknowledged the online campaign, which just didn't quit, and said they would open the game up.

They didn't say how.

Instead of an expected 'spy/disguise/sabateour' or whatever style of 'I'm still in my faction, but...' access, they created the giant fudge that was Cadwell's Silver and Gold... a way to 'give people what they want' without doing any work whatsoever really.

This necessitated further progression and a re-distribution of Skill Points, but was, as I said, a giant fudge.

They then added fudge sauce with Vet Ranks - rather than re-tooling the level progression, and with only a few numbers involved , made each level a crawl - 50 levels worth of content in a few levels worth of crawl.

They did of course have deadlines... although the minimal extra effort to thinly electroplate plate the original design with silver and gold don't really explain to the likes of me how we had to play through a year of bug-stomping and game redesigning beta after release.

Anyway, they subsequently added Craglorn and added the ultimate crawl vet levels up to 12, and then 14... making sure that the xp numbers only added up when you grinded hotspots in zergs, nerfing the hotspots as they went and forcing people to move about whilst never really fixing the reward levels for doing the quests.

Oh boy it was tedious... and all the fantastic quests in Craglorn became a blur as people didn't read or listen to a damn line of quest text/talky and the atmosphere was lost, even more than it had been in Silver and Gold, which was surprising in and of itself.

The quests... the frankly very well designed and realised quests were unintentionally sidelined by poor release scheduling and game design in other areas.

Now there are vague claims they will somehow de-fudge the pudding and it will taste better...

... a word of advice, don't dip your spoon in too fast there guys and gals, it might taste like a chili, egg, custard and fish cheesecake with the base made out of sawdust.