Why do people want veteran ranks removed?

Craven_Killmore · March 2015

I'll let you know right now consoles won't like vr leveling one bit, having 2 brick walls that separate the player base instead of 1 is just not a good direction, you can have one or the other not both. Or tripple the slow vr xp gains...

If you want consoles to sub remove 1 layer of the headache, or just watch.

Tonturri · March 2015

I can't speak for anyone else, but I want them removed so I don't have to grind/quest out 14 ridiculously long levels to play the content I actually want to play. I've already done all AD quests twice, as well as EP and well into DC, no wish to do it all again.

Jando · March 2015

The only way they can make Cadwell's Silver and Gold actually appealing is if each one opened up an entirely new class for you. Yep...a new class! Now that would be interesting.

I know some people will hate the idea, but I think it would be fantastic.

Seraphyel · March 2015

VR would be fine if it would be an account wide thing.

To make it with every character is just tedious.

ElliottXO · March 2015

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

The only way they can make Cadwell's Silver and Gold actually appealing is if each one opened up an entirely new class for you. Yep...a new class! Now that would be interesting.

I know some people will hate the idea, but I think it would be fantastic.

Ummm no. Are you crazy? How does forcing players to do the content they don't want make it more appealing? This is exactly the reason why VR have failed in the first place.

bg22 · March 2015

Any easy way to still make doing the other factions quests lines would be to make it heavily reward the champion system... But yes, I cannot stand Vet Ranks. The DAY I hit VR10 they added VR14... I was absolutely pissed. lol There are plenty of ways to keep things interesting without Vet Ranks. They ONLY create HUGE gaps that frustrate everyone that isn't VR 14.

So yes, I agree... I would love to see them removed.

Soulshine · March 2015

I think that the choice of using the device of the separate faction landmasses to drive the game's story is what from the get go killed its potential for expansive PvE as we had hoped to see, and landed us exactly in this mess.

For starters, it limited players experience of the world to such a degree that it bears no resemblance at all to what has always been a cornerstone of TES to begin with.

While it makes sense to have that premise in a story for PvP play, having an open world contiguous storyline throughout which players could explore freely and progress at a uniform pace regardless of faction would not have negated in the slightest the state of the world inside the Cyrodiil borders, had the story been well thought out and implemented.

If anything story progression leading one into the war zone could have added additional story elements throughout PvE as levels went higher. It could have added far more rich experiences and the potential for very interesting, dangerous adventures in lands not your own.

Expecting players to grind their way through two more faction main storylines, the outcome of which was already known, where every NPC speaks to you as if you are part of their faction was the most nonsensical thing I can think of. It did nothing but make it glaringly obvious there was insufficient content to support the essentially 60 ranks of play initially in PvE -- let alone enough to support further advancement up to 64 where they finally decided to cap advancement for the time being.

Grapdjan · March 2015

It's pretty simple. VR ranks need to go asap. Make 50 cap, use CP for character progression, stop the fracturing of the player base. Make everything optional. Players will still need to do Cadwell for skill eyc, but if they want to group there are no silly barriers. If they want to pvp then the only difference is CP and skills.

Veteran Ranks probably seemed like a great idea to someone, but it wasn't.

Get rid, see the population grow, see the community strengthen.

End of story.

Grapdjan · March 2015

Double.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

There's a very easy solution to the skill points like I said in my earlier post:

Xabien wrote: »

There is a way around this though. Lock the factions, make it so you need to roll a character in a given faction to play that content (as it should have been anyway). And increase the skill point rewards from quests, plus reduce the number of skyshards needed for a skill point to make up for the lost quests and shards. Sorted.

No more need for Silver and Gold. Get to 50, get into end game. Simples.

hamon · March 2015

LonePirate wrote: »

I honestly do not understand the rationale for removing veteran ranks. Why are people salivating over and anticipating this change?

The game needs a vertical progression system, even if it is frozen for long periods of time such as with the current VR14 cap. It is impractical to leave the max level at 50 ad infinitum because the game will become static and not offer any progression - which is undesirable for its own reasons.

The current VR system is implemented and understood by most players. Plus, it allows for easy future expansions without radically overhauling the current system. If ZOS goes to all of the effort to remove veteran ranks, exactly how would the game expand in the future? ZOS would need to undo some, if not most of the work it would need to do in order to remove them in the first place. That's a waste of time.

With all of the far more important things ZOS needs to complete - Imperial City, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Spellcrafting, Housing, Consoles, Wrothgar, etc. - removing veteran ranks will only delay those far more important additions to the game. Aren't those things more important than removing veteran ranks?

I understand people may dislike all of the time and effort needed to reach the current max level; but this is a game that is not intended to be completed in a day or a week or even a month. Who wants to hit level 50 in Coldharbour and then never increase in level again despite the mountains of content that remains to be played after that point?

Removing veteran ranks makes absolutely no sense to me:

because horizontal progression is far healthier. and if you dont understand or are unaware of that concept do some reasearch.

vet mode was at inception a last minute tacked on way to rehash the content of the opposing 2 factions and increase the level cap to effectively 150. of course it only really fooled the foolish in that by cunningly disguising levels 50-150 as v1-10 the fools were blinded to what they were actually doing.

in getting away with this they could also change the amount of xp you needed to get from level 50-150 by making specific "vet points" and making the gain of them even slower.

again a deliberate ploy to get as much time out of as little content as possible.

Bouvin · March 2015

hamon wrote: »

again a deliberate ploy to get as much time out of as little content as possible.

And the champion system is exponentially worse.

ElliottXO · March 2015

Grapdjan wrote: »

It's pretty simple. VR ranks need to go asap. Make 50 cap, use CP for character progression, stop the fracturing of the player base. Make everything optional. Players will still need to do Cadwell for skill eyc, but if they want to group there are no silly barriers. If they want to pvp then the only difference is CP and skills.

Veteran Ranks probably seemed like a great idea to someone, but it wasn't.

Get rid, see the population grow, see the community strengthen.

End of story.

Xabien wrote: »

There's a very easy solution to the skill points like I said in my earlier post:

Xabien wrote: »

There is a way around this though. Lock the factions, make it so you need to roll a character in a given faction to play that content (as it should have been anyway). And increase the skill point rewards from quests, plus reduce the number of skyshards needed for a skill point to make up for the lost quests and shards. Sorted.

No more need for Silver and Gold. Get to 50, get into end game. Simples.

I would prefer random tradeable skyshard drops in group dungeons and/or purchaseable with AP or in game gold from a trainer.

Add a restriction that only 1 skill point can be purchased per day. Everyone can get his skill points as he wants.

Group and PVP activities get encouraged.

nimander99 · March 2015

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Oh for crying out loud! It's not the ranks... progression is fine (now) the ONLY reason ranks are onerus is the lack of content... if there was more content after vr1 NO ONE would be complaining...

Well formatted reply though, easy on the eyes.

GreySix · March 2015

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Excellent points.

Rather glad I didn't level any characters to VR yet.

Otherwise, I might feel as wronged as the OP.

hamon · March 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

again a deliberate ploy to get as much time out of as little content as possible.

And the champion system is exponentially worse.

yep, but even worse they didnt remove one system of slow grind, they atted 2 at the same time.... horrible design.

Grao · March 2015

LonePirate wrote: »

I honestly do not understand the rationale for removing veteran ranks. Why are people salivating over and anticipating this change?

The game needs a vertical progression system, even if it is frozen for long periods of time such as with the current VR14 cap. It is impractical to leave the max level at 50 ad infinitum because the game will become static and not offer any progression - which is undesirable for its own reasons.

The current VR system is implemented and understood by most players. Plus, it allows for easy future expansions without radically overhauling the current system. If ZOS goes to all of the effort to remove veteran ranks, exactly how would the game expand in the future? ZOS would need to undo some, if not most of the work it would need to do in order to remove them in the first place. That's a waste of time.

With all of the far more important things ZOS needs to complete - Imperial City, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Spellcrafting, Housing, Consoles, Wrothgar, etc. - removing veteran ranks will only delay those far more important additions to the game. Aren't those things more important than removing veteran ranks?

I understand people may dislike all of the time and effort needed to reach the current max level; but this is a game that is not intended to be completed in a day or a week or even a month. Who wants to hit level 50 in Coldharbour and then never increase in level again despite the mountains of content that remains to be played after that point?

Removing veteran ranks makes absolutely no sense to me:

I don't think all of us are "salivating" at the removal of the Veteran System, but having two progression working simultaneously causes several complications, one of which is stretching the distance between each Rank or Level.

The simple reason we are asking about the removal of the Vet System is that we were promised it was coming. It worries many of us that Tamriel Unlimited, the second incarnation of ESO is being released not only for PC, but also for consoles with a progression system Zenimax said failed and will be removed. How is that logical? Zenimax is literally asking a large group of gamers to play and grind through the veteran ranks already knowing those ranks will evaporate when ever the company decide to move their proverbial [Snip].

GreySix · March 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Uhhh..V1-14 is all solo content now. You can listen to whatever you want. Craglorn will be group content later. You will still have ppl rushing you to not listen to quest dialog. Nothing you are talking about will change with the system but points for imagination I guess?

I'm not a VR-level player, but that is something that always irritated me about grouping in ESO.

SWTOR got a lot of stuff wrong, but grouping wasn't one of them. When you were grouped, your character saw the exact same dialog and cut-scenes as other grouped characters, and rushing content really wasn't an option, i.e., your character wasn't finished with the dialog until other grouped characters were. You could also group anything in SWTOR, i.e. solo-play was never forced.

WhiskyBob · March 2015

I can imagine why people hate Veteran system but honestly, I can't imagine how Zenimax will pull removal of that system off. Considering how "awesome" was the champion system implementation the complete overhaul of itemization and zone scaling seems to be out of their mental capabilities.

Majic · March 2015

On The Level

Endlessly chasing levels to reach a tiny "endgame ghetto" (i.e., the miniscule part of the game where you get level-appropriate rewards) is a legacy of old-school MMO thinking that is on the way out because it is, ultimately, boring.

Removing the veteran ranks and setting the cap at 50 is a retreat from that model, and an early step toward broadening endgame content by making it available to more players longer.

Cadwell's Silver and Gold are inferior attempts to implement what Guild Wars 2 does with dynamic level adjustment.

The reason they are inferior is due to the continued effect of having a narrow band of on-level content that effectively segregates players, puts them on rails through quest lines and limits their options.

That becomes tedious quickly, players understandably lose interest, complain and here we are.

We'll see what ZOS does next, and whether they will take advantage of something like dynamic level adjustment to give players more freedom to break out of the endgame ghetto.

If not, then they are simply replacing one problem with another. But given that the necessary technology is already used in some parts of the game, it wouldn't be too hard for them to expand its use if they see the need.

Lettuce prey.

Enodoc · March 2015

Xabien wrote: »

There's a very easy solution to the skill points like I said in my earlier post:

Xabien wrote: »

There is a way around this though. Lock the factions, make it so you need to roll a character in a given faction to play that content (as it should have been anyway). And increase the skill point rewards from quests, plus reduce the number of skyshards needed for a skill point to make up for the lost quests and shards. Sorted.

No more need for Silver and Gold. Get to 50, get into end game. Simples.

Why remove the option? Get to 50, choose to do Cadwell's or not. Also simples.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

There's a very easy solution to the skill points like I said in my earlier post:

Xabien wrote: »

There is a way around this though. Lock the factions, make it so you need to roll a character in a given faction to play that content (as it should have been anyway). And increase the skill point rewards from quests, plus reduce the number of skyshards needed for a skill point to make up for the lost quests and shards. Sorted.

No more need for Silver and Gold. Get to 50, get into end game. Simples.

Why remove the option? Get to 50, choose to do Cadwell's or not. Also simples.

Remove the option so that everyone at 50 still has the same access to the skillpoints without having to do that horrible treadmill. Honestly I'd be happier levelling three toons in three separate factions than having to do a whole three-faction stretch before hitting VR cap.

Dazin93 · March 2015

WhiskyBob wrote: »

I can imagine why people hate Veteran system but honestly, I can't imagine how Zenimax will pull removal of that system off. Considering how "awesome" was the champion system implementation the complete overhaul of itemization and zone scaling seems to be out of their mental capabilities.

Agreed. It took them 5+ months to develop the champion system which mostly was just a reworking of attributes and existing game mechanics. I can't imagine either how long it could take them to itemize and scale zones, dungeons, trials, and other encounters.

This is why from a monetary standpoint I am doubtful the vet system will ever go away. It doesn't make sense to devote that much time to it when their team could be working on items in the cash shop and dlc's that will actually make them some money. Money is a commodity that apparently they don't have enough of and I doubt removing the vet system would give them much of a return on their investment.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · March 2015

Craven_Killmore wrote: »

I'll let you know right now consoles won't like vr leveling one bit, having 2 brick walls that separate the player base instead of 1 is just not a good direction, you can have one or the other not both. Or tripple the slow vr xp gains...

If you want consoles to sub remove 1 layer of the headache, or just watch.

Yep pretty much this, most console players will probably feel that even the 1-50 content is too much of a grind for them. When you consider most console games these days are completed in a few hours I doubt you'll see many dedicated enough to stick through to VR14 like you would on PC.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

Dazin93 wrote: »

WhiskyBob wrote: »

I can imagine why people hate Veteran system but honestly, I can't imagine how Zenimax will pull removal of that system off. Considering how "awesome" was the champion system implementation the complete overhaul of itemization and zone scaling seems to be out of their mental capabilities.

Agreed. It took them 5+ months to develop the champion system which mostly was just a reworking of attributes and existing game mechanics. I can't imagine either how long it could take them to itemize and scale zones, dungeons, trials, and other encounters.

This is why from a monetary standpoint I am doubtful the vet system will ever go away. It doesn't make sense to devote that much time to it when their team could be working on items in the cash shop and dlc's that will actually make them some money. Money is a commodity that apparently they don't have enough of and I doubt removing the vet system would give them much of a return on their investment.

From a monetary perspective it really depends on how much they think getting rid of the VR system would improve player retention. My guess is it would improve quite a bit.

Goresnort · March 2015

Personal opinion (No insult intended to any party) - > Vet ranks and their current implementation, need to be tarred, feathered, set on fire, and then stabbed by an angry mob with pitch forks, until it (the vet rank system) dissolves at cellular Level.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/148100/should-zos-get-rid-of-veteran-ranks/p1

Having there be any form of xp gap between killing Molag Bal, and then going to viable pvp or the first actual new pve zone in the game, is unfortunately a rather bad and unnecessary design decision.

Being allowed to - Faction 1 -> PvP/Craglorn = Good. Like.
Having the opportunity to - Optional -> Faction 2/3 -> Faction 2/3 = Good. Like.
Being forced to - Faction 1 -> Faction 2/(grind xp total) -> Faction 3/(grind xp total) -> PvP/Craglorn = Bad. Dislike.

Just converting 14 vet ranks into 14 easy to get levels does not really solve the core issue.

The main issue is that there is a xp gap between Molag Bal, and then viable PvP/Crag/Vet Dungeons.

Get rid of the xp gap. (Molag Bal -> PvP/Crag)

How they scale out the Levels? Does not really matter. As long as new players are in PvP and/or Crag straight after Molag Bal, and in AA after doing lower Crag and some Vet Dungeons, it’s okay by me.

Should the Level cap increase in the future with new zones/content? It is a character progression based game, the devs stated in one of ESO’s launch letters it would keep both horizontal and vertical character progression in the future, so I would like it to keep progressing. Yes to more levels with new content.

Matt Frior: “new systems or growth in breadth as well as vertical growth of current systems”
(Final segment titled The Future)
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2014/03/26/esos-veteran-content

Being forcibly sent to a starter zone or xp grind after killing Molag Bal = The ultimate sucker punch.
Giving us some desirable options for what viable content we can choose after killing Molag Bal = Win.
Paul Sage: “Once you hit level 50, that’s when the game really opens up”
(Scroll to 6:43 in the video “An Introduction to The Elder Scrolls Online”)
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/media/videos

Unfortunatly, the VR system with the way it was implemented, ended up doing everything opposite to having "the game open up at 50".
The VR system did not give us more options for playstyles at level 50, instead it locks new level 50 players out of pvp and group pve, and forces players either to close the xp gap through grinding or beeing booted back to the starter islands.

Fortunately, ESO live ep.11 used wording along the lines of “we confirm that vet ranks will be removed from the game. This will occur after console launch”
(Scroll to 17:18 in Episode 11 of ESO live)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhbH7PdEU0&index=12&list=PLZng8hzxXSt6-402bM1G2UuZbtnlrMn0z

Hoping they manage to keep to that intention, and actually address the issues that vet ranks causes for new players, and not just somewhat mitigate the issue.

Vet ranks still being in the game at console launch = Darn.

Keeping broken systems in the game VS addressing the issue = Good game systems beats keeping stuff I earned under broken systems. Every. Single. Time.

My current rank and gear = Pixels that belong in the past. Was fun to get it. Will be fun to get new stuff with new content.
(That gear roundabout will be coming with new content anyway, regardless of what happens with vet ranks)

New players = Our and ESO's future

Vizier · March 2015

Who knows why people are salivating over it. Misery always loves company.

Is ESO going to remain locked at level 50 forever? Probably not. I'm thinking it's likely they just phase out VR Ranks as they grandfather in level caps. Shrug. That's what I'd do.

Whatever ZoS ends up doing I doubt it will be the panacea some hope it will be. LOL

Dreamo84 · March 2015

Vertical progression is a never ending treadmill and people are getting tired of them.

They already said all new DLC content will scale to your level. Whole world should scale.

Grapdjan · March 2015

Goresnort wrote: »

Personal opinion (No insult intended to any party) - > Vet ranks and their current implementation, need to be tarred, feathered, set on fire, and then stabbed by an angry mob with pitch forks, until it (the vet rank system) dissolves at cellular Level.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/148100/should-zos-get-rid-of-veteran-ranks/p1

Having there be any form of xp gap between killing Molag Bal, and then going to viable pvp or the first actual new pve zone in the game, is unfortunately a rather bad and unnecessary design decision.

Being allowed to - Faction 1 -> PvP/Craglorn = Good. Like.
Having the opportunity to - Optional -> Faction 2/3 -> Faction 2/3 = Good. Like.
Being forced to - Faction 1 -> Faction 2/(grind xp total) -> Faction 3/(grind xp total) -> PvP/Craglorn = Bad. Dislike.

Just converting 14 vet ranks into 14 easy to get levels does not really solve the core issue.

The main issue is that there is a xp gap between Molag Bal, and then viable PvP/Crag/Vet Dungeons.

Get rid of the xp gap. (Molag Bal -> PvP/Crag)

How they scale out the Levels? Does not really matter. As long as new players are in PvP and/or Crag straight after Molag Bal, and in AA after doing lower Crag and some Vet Dungeons, it’s okay by me.

Should the Level cap increase in the future with new zones/content? It is a character progression based game, the devs stated in one of ESO’s launch letters it would keep both horizontal and vertical character progression in the future, so I would like it to keep progressing. Yes to more levels with new content.

Matt Frior: “new systems or growth in breadth as well as vertical growth of current systems”
(Final segment titled The Future)
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2014/03/26/esos-veteran-content

Being forcibly sent to a starter zone or xp grind after killing Molag Bal = The ultimate sucker punch.
Giving us some desirable options for what viable content we can choose after killing Molag Bal = Win.
Paul Sage: “Once you hit level 50, that’s when the game really opens up”
(Scroll to 6:43 in the video “An Introduction to The Elder Scrolls Online”)
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/media/videos

Unfortunatly, the VR system with the way it was implemented, ended up doing everything opposite to having "the game open up at 50".
The VR system did not give us more options for playstyles at level 50, instead it locks new level 50 players out of pvp and group pve, and forces players either to close the xp gap through grinding or beeing booted back to the starter islands.

Fortunately, ESO live ep.11 used wording along the lines of “we confirm that vet ranks will be removed from the game. This will occur after console launch”
(Scroll to 17:18 in Episode 11 of ESO live)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhbH7PdEU0&index=12&list=PLZng8hzxXSt6-402bM1G2UuZbtnlrMn0z

Hoping they manage to keep to that intention, and actually address the issues that vet ranks causes for new players, and not just somewhat mitigate the issue.

Vet ranks still being in the game at console launch = Darn.

Keeping broken systems in the game VS addressing the issue = Good game systems beats keeping stuff I earned under broken systems. Every. Single. Time.

My current rank and gear = Pixels that belong in the past. Was fun to get it. Will be fun to get new stuff with new content.
(That gear roundabout will be coming with new content anyway, regardless of what happens with vet ranks)

New players = Our and ESO's future

This says it perfectly.

Wolfshead · March 2015

Well OP what i dont understand is why let the "normal" end at lvl 50 then you change over to VR lvl which to me make no since at all ZoS could just keep go with "normal" lvl to 64 which would make more since to most people i think this with VR system is so stupid so you are suppose the other factions story line which is nice idea but why it should be call VR dont make much since.

With CP system you have more freedom like most people want for in mmo you should have choose to do what you want to get to YOU'R goal and not company's goal which many mmo game out on market have total forgoet at least ZoS is try to gave that to us with CP system i just tihnk it is sad the VR lvl have not been remove that would make alot better but i guess it is to much work to change the lvl on gear and weapon and food and so on.