Why do people want veteran ranks removed?

Hortator Mopa

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

all i have to say is have u played skyrim, the champion system in a way takes ur level past v14, each person build through the system is going to be different, no two builds should be the same, giving the game play like in pvp a more player skilled base. it also in a way gives a very high level cap if none

There will always be class based op builds. I say 2 days after it comes out someone will have mastered the best path and the good players will be using it. Just like now if I have a NB join my group and he/she is not the same build as me I know he/she wont be as helpful to the group as he/she should be..

Sounds elitest when really its just a case of me not wanting my time wasted by people who dont play well or need a carry.

^ This proves why people do not want to play with others and just want to solo things on their on because of people with this mentally. Should is not the word you should be using. Could should be the word. As a person should not be playing a certain way because another person tells them to or wants them to. A good player should not need a cookie cutter build to be good. There should be multiple of ways to be good. Not one best way.

Yawn...

"Should" Is the right word. In a group everyone SHOULD be doing their role right so that its a fair experience. If it was COULD then the person who comes in COULD be terrible and a time waster and thus be carried and waste other peoples REAL time.

I never said that people cant play the way they want... I like that people do BUT I do ask anyone who comes into my group to not be a derp and be able to play the game right so THEY dont waste MY time.

There are multiple ways to be good. There is ONE way to be the BEST.

Dont assume I want people to play the way I play... and you sound like a bad player wanting a carry?

By all means though go do a pledge that should take 8 mins with a bad team and waste 1 hour of your life due to your "Could" reasoning.

I understand this comes off mean however I am tired of having people with "unique sunflower" builds who completely suck coming in and then complaining that people wont carry them...

Cody

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

all i have to say is have u played skyrim, the champion system in a way takes ur level past v14, each person build through the system is going to be different, no two builds should be the same, giving the game play like in pvp a more player skilled base. it also in a way gives a very high level cap if none

There will always be class based op builds. I say 2 days after it comes out someone will have mastered the best path and the good players will be using it. Just like now if I have a NB join my group and he/she is not the same build as me I know he/she wont be as helpful to the group as he/she should be..

Sounds elitest when really its just a case of me not wanting my time wasted by people who dont play well or need a carry.

^ This proves why people do not want to play with others and just want to solo things on their on because of people with this mentally. Should is not the word you should be using. Could should be the word. As a person should not be playing a certain way because another person tells them to or wants them to. A good player should not need a cookie cutter build to be good. There should be multiple of ways to be good. Not one best way.

I may end up quoting this in my sig.

Well done, very nicely said.

Hortator Mopa

Cody wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

all i have to say is have u played skyrim, the champion system in a way takes ur level past v14, each person build through the system is going to be different, no two builds should be the same, giving the game play like in pvp a more player skilled base. it also in a way gives a very high level cap if none

There will always be class based op builds. I say 2 days after it comes out someone will have mastered the best path and the good players will be using it. Just like now if I have a NB join my group and he/she is not the same build as me I know he/she wont be as helpful to the group as he/she should be..

Sounds elitest when really its just a case of me not wanting my time wasted by people who dont play well or need a carry.

^ This proves why people do not want to play with others and just want to solo things on their on because of people with this mentally. Should is not the word you should be using. Could should be the word. As a person should not be playing a certain way because another person tells them to or wants them to. A good player should not need a cookie cutter build to be good. There should be multiple of ways to be good. Not one best way.

I may end up quoting this in my sig.

Well done, very nicely said.

Its funny because I have seen your sig before and I thought "this guy sounds really sour that he is bad and does not get carried". Then I gave benefit of the doubt and thought you just got sour about the fact he said the good players are leaving, I guess now I know you just hate that people who are good dont want to carry bad players...

You essentially are asking players who know the right builds and play skillfully to take REAL time out of their life to do dungeons, trials etc slower so others who are not as good can also come along.

If you are bad and want to do something then dont get mad other players dont want to waste REAL time on you..

Also The game is very easy, I do DSAV with friends without even using voice chat. Sanc isnt even hard now days.

Stop wanting people to waste their IRL time to carry and help people who are bad... rude af.

Cody

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

all i have to say is have u played skyrim, the champion system in a way takes ur level past v14, each person build through the system is going to be different, no two builds should be the same, giving the game play like in pvp a more player skilled base. it also in a way gives a very high level cap if none

There will always be class based op builds. I say 2 days after it comes out someone will have mastered the best path and the good players will be using it. Just like now if I have a NB join my group and he/she is not the same build as me I know he/she wont be as helpful to the group as he/she should be..

Sounds elitest when really its just a case of me not wanting my time wasted by people who dont play well or need a carry.

^ This proves why people do not want to play with others and just want to solo things on their on because of people with this mentally. Should is not the word you should be using. Could should be the word. As a person should not be playing a certain way because another person tells them to or wants them to. A good player should not need a cookie cutter build to be good. There should be multiple of ways to be good. Not one best way.

I may end up quoting this in my sig.

Well done, very nicely said.

its funny because I have seen your sig before and I thought "this guy sounds really sour that he is bad and does not get carried". Then I gave benefit of the doubt and thought you just got sour about the fact he said the good players are leaving, I guess now I know you just hate that people who are good dont want to carry bad players...

not at all. I just hate to see people getting kicked from groups simply because they run a stamina build, or because they don't have this or that ability. It is elitist and disheartening towards whomever you kicked.

Now im not saying one should go into a group trying to run a 15 minute trial run with one of the worst builds in the game and expect to get carried, or you should keep someone that does nothing but die every single battle of the dungeon, or you should keep the tank if the tank is not doing well and refuses to listen to his teammates advice, but there are times where treating people like that is rude, elitist, and inconsiderate.

and to touch the personal side of this discussion, why should I care if YOU think im a bad player or not? I have done almost every single vet dungeon, Iv done almost all the PvE content, AND have done relatively well in PvP for the last 6+ months, all while using an underdog build.

I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. So if you want to call me a bad player again, feel free. If you want a demonstration of my ability at ESO, come on Haderus for a spell and fight me. I will show you what I can do.(which is funny because I just said I have nothing to prove to you. but I always like a good fight, and a good fight is a learning opportunity)

Hortator Mopa

I literally just made a thread about the stupid mentality you used just now.

This is you...

"I dont care if I take longer because myself or someone else uses a unique build... so EVERYONE should also take as long as me when someone else is using a unique build in their group"

No, I have things to do, If I ask if you are good, build info etc and then you get into the group and either dont play good or have a bad build and will waste my time and my group members time I will just have your spot filled...

Not being rude, the person who plays bad and after telling me they will keep up, DONT, they are the rude ones.

Want to play a unique build? Then make sure the group you join is ok with taking longer and working harder.

Cody

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

I literally just made a thread about the stupid mentality you used just now.

This is you...

"I dont care if I take longer because myself or someone else uses a unique build... so EVERYONE should also take as long as me when someone else is using a unique build in their group"

No, I have things to do, If I ask if you are good, build info etc and then you get into the group and either dont play good or have a bad build and will waste my time and my group members time I will just have your spot filled...

Not being rude, the person who plays bad and after telling me they will keep up, DONT, they are the rude ones.

Want to play a unique build? Then make sure the group you join is ok with taking longer and working harder.

Did you even READ my response? or did you skim it and not even bother to analyze it?? or did you just copy and paste some response you had saved for moments like this.

The point I was making, was that there is a line that can't be crossed. THAT is what I was trying to say, I was not saying ANYTHING near "everyone has to use my unique build"

Heck I agree with most of your response!!:/

you know what, just f*** off. I will not waste my time with you. If you will not even bother to read my responses, then I will not bother wasting my time with you.

I stayed up later than I normally do to see your response, and it's clear that was a waste of my time. I have better things to do than speak with some elitist p**** that can't see past his own point of view.

goodnight

Hortator Mopa

Ok sunflower.

EQBallzz

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

I'm not the one making assumptions. The assumption is that by penalizing some players who consumed more content it will somehow balance the game and then everyone can play together equally or some such nonsense.

Nothing you are saying above would change if they awarded people with CP based on some proportional conversion of the current progression system (as they promised). Those with more CP could grind for more CP and form their competitive trials groups with minimum 200 CP requirements and those freshly turned 50 players could form their own DSA groups with no CP requirements. They aren't mutually exclusive which is why this course of action is so asinine. It serves no purpose other than to penalize players who consumed more content.

If, as you say, "joe average" doesn't care about competitive trial's groups then why does he care if some small percentage of players gets marginally more CP then him when this launches? He will likely not be in direct competition with them (outside of PvP) and likely won't be running in the same circles so why does it make sense to apply changes that aren't representative of the current system and at least acknowledge the enormous effort that went into leveling through the vet levels?

Why does "joe average" want some players penalized in this uneven way? Is it just spite or jealousy or what? I don't get it. I know there would be players with more vet levels than me and get more CP and I'm OK with that so it's not like I would benefit the most but if someone leveled more than me they should get more. Simple as that.

Wolfshead

Honest OP ask why people don't like VR just show you have never lvl alt honest it is damn pain in ass to be honest and it even pain in ass to lvl up 1st char serious you trun in quest and exp bar hardly move anything that is not even fun you lose all hope of even get to VR14. If you don't want to spend you time get kill over and over again in Craglorn hope you will survive mobs and hopefull kill one if you lucky.

PaulD

It is a PITA. OTOH, right now I'm hero of all three, with my armor as the blue, yellow and red for the achievements. Going to take those away "to be fair" or just say "you guys can't do that"?

Joejudas

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

I get what your saying....but the game has been out a year yet.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

as far as i am concerned you are asking me which orange do i like- the orange one or the orange one. there really is no difference between grinding 14 veteran ranks and grinding towards the 3600 champion point cap. it will still be a grind, there will still be those that over-power others, and there will still be a long grinder (even more so now). if ZoS can say that they are "too valuable" to hand out the those that played with exp tracking in mind, i don't see how they wouldn't lead to players out powering other players. a veteran rank by any other name would be the champion system...

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

*sigh* seriously, are you a paid to post?.....

okay that bold is pure (naive) speculation so heres mine. silver will be geared for level 50 with 0-100CP; gold will be geared for level 50 with 100-200 CP; craglorn will be geared for level 50 with 200+CP

see how they can still get you to grind, make a power gap between fresh 50 and old 50, note how you still can't just walk into DSA or trials? i just threw numbers out for CPs so yall can just insert whatever CP numbers you like, you will still be forced to grind something for more power "progression".

edit: its not more power its "progression"

Digiman

LonePirate wrote: »

Removing veteran ranks makes absolutely no sense to me:

Because it made every other thing you did in a zone or world negligible. A random Daedra portal opened up with guys to kill, you clear it the first and finally the last and you get no XP.

Found a chest and picked the lock to get the loot, you would get XP if that was normal but Veteran Rank doesn't care.

A person being held hostage in an obvious trap? Well ignore that now your at Veteran Rank cause killing those trappers will yield nothing. Even a sorcerer who summons a daedra he can't control.

How about taking out mobs in a cave to get to the boss? Well don't, just sneak past if you can as its time consuming and doesn't award any Veteren points. Only clearing it and boss once.

Veteren Rank gave you nothing, not even a proper power difference. Everything got harder and boring very fast as you burned to ash just clearing out a zone and achieving a new rank was equally as unrewarding a lack luster.

The only difference you got when you reached a higher rank was you would be able to equip better gear. That's it! The end.

HBK

The weirdest stuff with "veteran ranks" was that they were just levels in disguise. Just harder to gain with the original system (not all activities would yield "veteran points", instead of "experience points" which would be earned doing a ton of different stuff).

I have mixed feelings with the current system, but one thing is pretty obvious, removing the VR system and replacing it with some other form of progression system (be it by gear tiers or champion passives) will not prevent newbies from getting curbstomped in PvP by "older", "more experienced" players.

Edit: Actually, I kinda like the current veteran system. It's a form of soft cap leveling system. And I always found weird that games would artificially hard cap your leveling.

Also, AFAIK ESO does not implement "hidden" level difference bonuses/maluses. Meaning the only difference between two levels are the bare stats. A VR5 with the same stats as a VR10 is on equal ground. Of course such a situation rarely happens, but still, any player can damage a VRmax player, so no player is ever completely useless.

Lied

IMO, it's not about the scale of progression in itself--it's how well it works with the current/future population. MMOs need to find ways to bring enough people together to do PvE/PvP content. If you're a huge MMO you can afford to have a huge scale of progression as there are so many people playing that there are sufficient numbers for most brackets. If you're not a huge MMO then you spread your player-base too thin.

For example, if you're League of Legends with 7 million concurrent players you can effectively have all kinds of variance in skill with an ELO system that has enough people to match with. If you're ESO with.. slightly less than 7 million concurrent players.. then you can't afford a large variance in math prohibiting players from playing with/against each other.

To reiterate, the current system would probably work if there were (and always would be) tons of VR1s to play with each other, VR6s to play with each other, etc. As it is, every time they add VRs they spread a little butter over such a large piece of toast that it greatly discourages new players and veteran alts by limiting the number of people they can effectively play with and how they can play the game.

Enodoc

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

*sigh* seriously, are you a paid to post?.....

okay that bold is pure (naive) speculation so heres mine. silver will be geared for level 50 with 0-100CP; gold will be geared for level 50 with 100-200 CP; craglorn will be geared for level 50 with 200+CP

see how they can still get you to grind, make a power gap between fresh 50 and old 50, note how you still can't just walk into DSA or trials? i just threw numbers out for CPs so yall can just insert whatever CP numbers you like, you will still be forced to grind something for more power "progression".

edit: its not more power its "progression"

I don't think it would be possible for them to gear content based on number of CPs; there's such a wide range of passives to choose from that it would not be viable.

LonePirate wrote: »

[...] a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

In my mind, pressing a button and instantly skipping 40 hours of content is what one would call "cheating".

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

*sigh* seriously, are you a paid to post?.....

okay that bold is pure (naive) speculation so heres mine. silver will be geared for level 50 with 0-100CP; gold will be geared for level 50 with 100-200 CP; craglorn will be geared for level 50 with 200+CP

see how they can still get you to grind, make a power gap between fresh 50 and old 50, note how you still can't just walk into DSA or trials? i just threw numbers out for CPs so yall can just insert whatever CP numbers you like, you will still be forced to grind something for more power "progression".

edit: its not more power its "progression"

I don't think it would be possible for them to gear content based on number of CPs; there's such a wide range of passives to choose from that it would not be viable.

the main point was to guppet because he/she keeps posting that with no VRs that level 50s are going to just drop into the end game content with out any need to gear up/gain CPs/anything. i find it highly unlikely that they will make it feasible for a fresh 50 to be able to just hop into end game content withOUT having to grind anything

however, it would depend greatly on how they set the system up, which i don't know enough of to base any theories off of, and the mob mechanics they plan to put in. this isn't a new system by any stretch, and i have experienced the same in EQ with AA and though you didnt need ALL the AA's but you would have to greatly compensate with gear and then higher end content did start requiring specific abilities/passives from mid to deep within the system.

for example:
you need a teir 3 ability that increases block mitigation by 100% for 5 seconds. to get teir three you must first spend 10 points in tier 1 and then 15 points into tier 2. that would sum up to a total of 25 points before having the needed teir 3 ability.

Enodoc

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

*sigh* seriously, are you a paid to post?.....

okay that bold is pure (naive) speculation so heres mine. silver will be geared for level 50 with 0-100CP; gold will be geared for level 50 with 100-200 CP; craglorn will be geared for level 50 with 200+CP

see how they can still get you to grind, make a power gap between fresh 50 and old 50, note how you still can't just walk into DSA or trials? i just threw numbers out for CPs so yall can just insert whatever CP numbers you like, you will still be forced to grind something for more power "progression".

edit: its not more power its "progression"

I don't think it would be possible for them to gear content based on number of CPs; there's such a wide range of passives to choose from that it would not be viable.

the main point was to guppet because he/she keeps posting that with no VRs that level 50s are going to just drop into the end game content with out any need to gear up/gain CPs/anything. i find it highly unlikely that they will make it feasible for a fresh 50 to be able to just hop into end game content withOUT having to grind anything

however, it would depend greatly on how they set the system up, which i don't know enough of to base any theories off of, and the mob mechanics they plan to put in. this isn't a new system by any stretch, and i have experienced the same in EQ with AA and though you didnt need ALL the AA's but you would have to greatly compensate with gear and then higher end content did start requiring specific abilities/passives from mid to deep within the system.

for example:
you need a teir 3 ability that increases block mitigation by 100% for 5 seconds. to get teir three you must first spend 10 points in tier 1 and then 15 points into tier 2. that would sum up to a total of 25 points before having the needed teir 3 ability.

Is that a "hard" requirement, as it were? As in, you cannot do whatever thing until you have that ability, or is it a "very recommended" requirement, without which you'd probably be screwed but would still be able to try the content?
I agree that there will likely be some form of progression measure which makes, say, Silver Zone 5 harder than Silver Zone 1, but I think one of the main purposes of ZOS doing this is so that people can be reasonably viable in all endgame content as soon as they hit 50; that's both Silver and Gold, Craglorn, Cyrodiil, and the lower Vet Dungeons and Trials. You'd need a bit of CP progression to be able to do the higher Dungeons and Trials, DSA, etc, but you wouldn't need to do Silver and Gold before Craglorn.

It's basically a question of making sure there is still a semblance of progression within content types, while making sure there is not a requirement between content types before you're viable for that content.

For example:
Player --- Solo PvE --- Group PvE ---- PvP ---- Vet Dungs ---- Trials ---- DSA
New 50 -- S&G T1 --- Lower Crag --- Cyrodiil --- All (ex. CoA) -- HRC, AA -- Norm
Adv 50 --- S&G T5 --- Upper Crag --- Cyrodiil --- All inc. CoA ---- SO ---- Vet

"Adv 50" refers to a Level 50 player who has advanced some way ahead of the "New 50" player who just hit 50.
S&G T1/T5 refer to Silver and Gold Tier 1 and Tier 5 zones. (The rest of those fit in between.)

Edit: Trying to align stuff vertically does not work too well

Lied

I will be surprised if they go to such great lengths to put players on a more common ground and then follow that with new methods of gating content that separates them again. If they didn't want that sort of thing with VRs, why would they want to draw it out even more with a system that takes even longer to cap out?

At least that's how I see it concerning CPs. However, regarding gear is a different story. There are a lot of missing detail about the new seasonal gear that could shift what were previously VR restrictions to gear requirements instead. Even so, I imagine those would be a lot quicker to work through. Just my guess.

Gogog Bloodthroat

all i see here is people who didn't wanna put the time in like everyone else to reach top level.Who want to sit back and let zos *** over the ones that did and boost the lazy people to the same level cause "it's not fair"

Lied

Gogog Bloodthroat wrote: »

all i see here is people who didn't wanna put the time in like everyone else to reach top level.Who want to sit back and let zos *** over the ones that did and boost the lazy people to the same level cause "it's not fair"

I think that's somewhat accurate.

I'd also wager there are people here who paid their dues, reached the top, and wouldn't willingly compromise the integrity of their efforts even if it did help ESOs future and keep the game from going F2P.

Guppet

EQBallzz wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

I'm not the one making assumptions. The assumption is that by penalizing some players who consumed more content it will somehow balance the game and then everyone can play together equally or some such nonsense.

Nothing you are saying above would change if they awarded people with CP based on some proportional conversion of the current progression system (as they promised). Those with more CP could grind for more CP and form their competitive trials groups with minimum 200 CP requirements and those freshly turned 50 players could form their own DSA groups with no CP requirements. They aren't mutually exclusive which is why this course of action is so asinine. It serves no purpose other than to penalize players who consumed more content.

If, as you say, "joe average" doesn't care about competitive trial's groups then why does he care if some small percentage of players gets marginally more CP then him when this launches? He will likely not be in direct competition with them (outside of PvP) and likely won't be running in the same circles so why does it make sense to apply changes that aren't representative of the current system and at least acknowledge the enormous effort that went into leveling through the vet levels?

Why does "joe average" want some players penalized in this uneven way? Is it just spite or jealousy or what? I don't get it. I know there would be players with more vet levels than me and get more CP and I'm OK with that so it's not like I would benefit the most but if someone leveled more than me they should get more. Simple as that.

That's all good and well, but this thread is about why they are removing VR levels. Its not about why are people not getting compensated for the removal of VR, that's in lots of other threads.

Guppet

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

as far as i am concerned you are asking me which orange do i like- the orange one or the orange one. there really is no difference between grinding 14 veteran ranks and grinding towards the 3600 champion point cap. it will still be a grind, there will still be those that over-power others, and there will still be a long grinder (even more so now). if ZoS can say that they are "too valuable" to hand out the those that played with exp tracking in mind, i don't see how they wouldn't lead to players out powering other players. a veteran rank by any other name would be the champion system...

Your just not getting it. Its completely different. Currently you are required to get 14 vet levels before you can do end game, in the new system, you can try endgame at 50. In 33% of the time you get to do end game stuff with people you want to play with, how is that hard to understand?

Guppet

Enodoc wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

*sigh* seriously, are you a paid to post?.....

okay that bold is pure (naive) speculation so heres mine. silver will be geared for level 50 with 0-100CP; gold will be geared for level 50 with 100-200 CP; craglorn will be geared for level 50 with 200+CP

see how they can still get you to grind, make a power gap between fresh 50 and old 50, note how you still can't just walk into DSA or trials? i just threw numbers out for CPs so yall can just insert whatever CP numbers you like, you will still be forced to grind something for more power "progression".

edit: its not more power its "progression"

I don't think it would be possible for them to gear content based on number of CPs; there's such a wide range of passives to choose from that it would not be viable.

the main point was to guppet because he/she keeps posting that with no VRs that level 50s are going to just drop into the end game content with out any need to gear up/gain CPs/anything. i find it highly unlikely that they will make it feasible for a fresh 50 to be able to just hop into end game content withOUT having to grind anything

however, it would depend greatly on how they set the system up, which i don't know enough of to base any theories off of, and the mob mechanics they plan to put in. this isn't a new system by any stretch, and i have experienced the same in EQ with AA and though you didnt need ALL the AA's but you would have to greatly compensate with gear and then higher end content did start requiring specific abilities/passives from mid to deep within the system.

for example:
you need a teir 3 ability that increases block mitigation by 100% for 5 seconds. to get teir three you must first spend 10 points in tier 1 and then 15 points into tier 2. that would sum up to a total of 25 points before having the needed teir 3 ability.

Is that a "hard" requirement, as it were? As in, you cannot do whatever thing until you have that ability, or is it a "very recommended" requirement, without which you'd probably be screwed but would still be able to try the content?
I agree that there will likely be some form of progression measure which makes, say, Silver Zone 5 harder than Silver Zone 1, but I think one of the main purposes of ZOS doing this is so that people can be reasonably viable in all endgame content as soon as they hit 50; that's both Silver and Gold, Craglorn, Cyrodiil, and the lower Vet Dungeons and Trials. You'd need a bit of CP progression to be able to do the higher Dungeons and Trials, DSA, etc, but you wouldn't need to do Silver and Gold before Craglorn.

It's basically a question of making sure there is still a semblance of progression within content types, while making sure there is not a requirement between content types before you're viable for that content.

For example:
Player --- Solo PvE --- Group PvE ---- PvP ---- Vet Dungs ---- Trials ---- DSA
New 50 -- S&G T1 --- Lower Crag --- Cyrodiil --- All (ex. CoA) -- HRC, AA -- Norm
Adv 50 --- S&G T5 --- Upper Crag --- Cyrodiil --- All inc. CoA ---- SO ---- Vet

"Adv 50" refers to a Level 50 player who has advanced some way ahead of the "New 50" player who just hit 50.
S&G T1/T5 refer to Silver and Gold Tier 1 and Tier 5 zones. (The rest of those fit in between.)

Edit: Trying to align stuff vertically does not work too well

This man gets it! They can have content that is harder for a level 50 and content that is easier. But so long as you are level 50, you get to give it a try and find out if you can do it. If you cant you maybe need to get some better gear or some CP, but if you are good enough or come up with some interesting strategies, then you can do it.

VR levels never really made anything difficult from my experience, it was all just about understanding game mechanics, once you did that you could go where ever you wanted in VR. Heck I was soloing VR8 dolmans as a VR6, its never been hard when you know the mechanics.

Frenkthevile

Imho leveling till vr14 was fine...on first char.
Leveling Alts is booooring now.

I_killed_Vivec

Lied wrote: »

I will be surprised if they go to such great lengths to put players on a more common ground and then follow that with new methods of gating content that separates them again. If they didn't want that sort of thing with VRs, why would they want to draw it out even more with a system that takes even longer to cap out?

At least that's how I see it concerning CPs. However, regarding gear is a different story. There are a lot of missing detail about the new seasonal gear that could shift what were previously VR restrictions to gear requirements instead. Even so, I imagine those would be a lot quicker to work through. Just my guess.

Unfortunately we are now into the realms of the unknown.

It isn't at all clear to me (though ZOS might have it all sorted and they just aren't telling us) how scaling zones and gear work in a non-VR world. The mobs and crafting materials in a zone are currently tied to its VR-level, take away the levels and what? Are all mobs in all vet zones equally levelled? Are half the crafting materials simply removed from the game? Can a brand new level 50 start brandishing (the equivalent of) VR14 voidsteel weapons?

Are they going to blunt my daggers and take away my XP?

The idea of seasonal gear is not a solution for crafters - we want to make our own gear knowing it will be as good as, if not better than, any available from any other source (or so we were promised).

I suppose that all will become clear in the end. In the meantime I get the feeling that the only reason to play is to hoard gold.

EQBallzz

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

I'm not the one making assumptions. The assumption is that by penalizing some players who consumed more content it will somehow balance the game and then everyone can play together equally or some such nonsense.

Nothing you are saying above would change if they awarded people with CP based on some proportional conversion of the current progression system (as they promised). Those with more CP could grind for more CP and form their competitive trials groups with minimum 200 CP requirements and those freshly turned 50 players could form their own DSA groups with no CP requirements. They aren't mutually exclusive which is why this course of action is so asinine. It serves no purpose other than to penalize players who consumed more content.

If, as you say, "joe average" doesn't care about competitive trial's groups then why does he care if some small percentage of players gets marginally more CP then him when this launches? He will likely not be in direct competition with them (outside of PvP) and likely won't be running in the same circles so why does it make sense to apply changes that aren't representative of the current system and at least acknowledge the enormous effort that went into leveling through the vet levels?

Why does "joe average" want some players penalized in this uneven way? Is it just spite or jealousy or what? I don't get it. I know there would be players with more vet levels than me and get more CP and I'm OK with that so it's not like I would benefit the most but if someone leveled more than me they should get more. Simple as that.

That's all good and well, but this thread is about why they are removing VR levels. Its not about why are people not getting compensated for the removal of VR, that's in lots of other threads.

Don't act like I'm changing the subject. I was only addressing *your* comments. If your point was that removing the vet levels gets players access to end game content quicker that is fine but it's not a reason for failing to compensate those who progressed through the current system already. Removing the progress from some players has ZERO impact on that point. You could still access that content at 50 whether people get vet compensation or not. Your argument is invalid.

And to the specific point of the OP...the vet system is a progression system. The champion system is a progression system. People will still be separated by relative power within those systems. Just because they are removing one and adding the other doesn't mean that is changing. The only thing that is changing is that some people are having their progression reset while others are not. That's the primary issue.

Guppet

EQBallzz wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

I'm not the one making assumptions. The assumption is that by penalizing some players who consumed more content it will somehow balance the game and then everyone can play together equally or some such nonsense.

Nothing you are saying above would change if they awarded people with CP based on some proportional conversion of the current progression system (as they promised). Those with more CP could grind for more CP and form their competitive trials groups with minimum 200 CP requirements and those freshly turned 50 players could form their own DSA groups with no CP requirements. They aren't mutually exclusive which is why this course of action is so asinine. It serves no purpose other than to penalize players who consumed more content.

If, as you say, "joe average" doesn't care about competitive trial's groups then why does he care if some small percentage of players gets marginally more CP then him when this launches? He will likely not be in direct competition with them (outside of PvP) and likely won't be running in the same circles so why does it make sense to apply changes that aren't representative of the current system and at least acknowledge the enormous effort that went into leveling through the vet levels?

Why does "joe average" want some players penalized in this uneven way? Is it just spite or jealousy or what? I don't get it. I know there would be players with more vet levels than me and get more CP and I'm OK with that so it's not like I would benefit the most but if someone leveled more than me they should get more. Simple as that.

That's all good and well, but this thread is about why they are removing VR levels. Its not about why are people not getting compensated for the removal of VR, that's in lots of other threads.

Don't act like I'm changing the subject. I was only addressing *your* comments. If your point was that removing the vet levels gets players access to end game content quicker that is fine but it's not a reason for failing to compensate those who progressed through the current system already. Removing the progress from some players has ZERO impact on that point. You could still access that content at 50 whether people get vet compensation or not. Your argument is invalid.

And to the specific point of the OP...the vet system is a progression system. The champion system is a progression system. People will still be separated by relative power within those systems. Just because they are removing one and adding the other doesn't mean that is changing. The only thing that is changing is that some people are having their progression reset while others are not. That's the primary issue.

I was responding this from yourself-

"It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?"

I was just saying that people maybe don't actually want to join those groups, they maybe just want access to the content. Which they will have with the new system, assuming they don't do all this, then stupidly gate the content in a different way.

For the record, know I frequently defend ZOS stand point, that does not mean that I think its fair, I just can understand it and accept it. My progress is very much reset too, im loosing hundreds of hours of progress ands not able to find any motivation to play at the moment either. I'm just optimistic for the future, as I love this game and want to think they can keep it going. The alternative games are all pretty rubbish, so ill have patience.

EQBallzz

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

(....)

Point is, if you make it pointless to try and grind out to the end, people will stop doing it and just go play the game. And they'll still have plenty of room to grow. Then you've just got to create a more immersive world to keep them interested and exploring. Why waste old zones as though they're one use only?

I think that the CHampion system is the right answer: player can still progress, but the difference between a player with 200 champion point and a player having 30 champion point will not be that game breaking and they will still be able to feel more or less equal while playing together. Which is my main reason to dislike Veteran ranks: separation between players and gates for content.

With this system players will still have enough reasons to play the game for their own individual progression, but also will have more occasion to team up with other players. This should be something more fun in the end!

It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?

I love how people saying everything will be equal with the CS system because the difference between 200 and 30 CP is minimal are the same ones who don't want to award current vet players with CP that they already earned from non-repeatable content because it would create too big of a gap.

So let me get this straight..awarding 30 CP to V1 characters and 100 CP to V14 characters is a game breaking gap that can't be tolerated but people with 30 and 200 CP difference will be a big love fest of equality with rainbows and kittens for all? Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways. It's either a progression system or it isn't. People either earn the CP equally for doing the same things or it's on a foundation of inequality.

Your making a massive assumption, that is completely wrong. Your assuming that joe average wants to join the competitive trials group's and the elite PVPers. The reality, is they could not give a stuff about your niche group's, they just want to get to the end game and play with people with the same interests and commitment level as themselves.

You really need to understand that the top trial times are not remotely interesting to anybody but the most dedicated hard-core players. There is a reason that there's a mod to ignore announcements. Its about as interesting as who won the local elections in Queensland.

Currently if a group of friends want to do DSA normal, they need to get to VR14, then they can do it, after the change, they only need to get to level 50, that's a massive change and gets them where they want to be in a third of the time.

I'm not the one making assumptions. The assumption is that by penalizing some players who consumed more content it will somehow balance the game and then everyone can play together equally or some such nonsense.

Nothing you are saying above would change if they awarded people with CP based on some proportional conversion of the current progression system (as they promised). Those with more CP could grind for more CP and form their competitive trials groups with minimum 200 CP requirements and those freshly turned 50 players could form their own DSA groups with no CP requirements. They aren't mutually exclusive which is why this course of action is so asinine. It serves no purpose other than to penalize players who consumed more content.

If, as you say, "joe average" doesn't care about competitive trial's groups then why does he care if some small percentage of players gets marginally more CP then him when this launches? He will likely not be in direct competition with them (outside of PvP) and likely won't be running in the same circles so why does it make sense to apply changes that aren't representative of the current system and at least acknowledge the enormous effort that went into leveling through the vet levels?

Why does "joe average" want some players penalized in this uneven way? Is it just spite or jealousy or what? I don't get it. I know there would be players with more vet levels than me and get more CP and I'm OK with that so it's not like I would benefit the most but if someone leveled more than me they should get more. Simple as that.

That's all good and well, but this thread is about why they are removing VR levels. Its not about why are people not getting compensated for the removal of VR, that's in lots of other threads.

Don't act like I'm changing the subject. I was only addressing *your* comments. If your point was that removing the vet levels gets players access to end game content quicker that is fine but it's not a reason for failing to compensate those who progressed through the current system already. Removing the progress from some players has ZERO impact on that point. You could still access that content at 50 whether people get vet compensation or not. Your argument is invalid.

And to the specific point of the OP...the vet system is a progression system. The champion system is a progression system. People will still be separated by relative power within those systems. Just because they are removing one and adding the other doesn't mean that is changing. The only thing that is changing is that some people are having their progression reset while others are not. That's the primary issue.

I was responding this from yourself-

"It's no different. If you think there won't be a gap between players within a month or even weeks you are deluded. Do you think competitive trials groups that have 200 CP are going to not have a min CP level to join them? Do you think elite PvP groups/guilds will not require a min CP level or certain powers to run with them?"

I was just saying that people maybe don't actually want to join those groups, they maybe just want access to the content. Which they will have with the new system, assuming they don't do all this, then stupidly gate the content in a different way.

For the record, know I frequently defend ZOS stand point, that does not mean that I think its fair, I just can understand it and accept it. My progress is very much reset too, im loosing hundreds of hours of progress ands not able to find any motivation to play at the moment either. I'm just optimistic for the future, as I love this game and want to think they can keep it going. The alternative games are all pretty rubbish, so ill have patience.

I think the bolded part of your statement says a lot. When one of the biggest ZOS white knights on this subject says it's unfair and can't find motivation to play I think that speaks volumes to the issue at hand. I'm in the same boat and haven't been playing, either aside from collecting hireling mail and doing some writs/farming.

Sure, months and months down the road the game will go on and might even be better but that doesn't excuse the course they are taking now and doesn't make it right. There is no logical reason for them to take this course of action. The game can still make all these changes to improve the future of the game while still fairly and proportionally transitioning current progression into that system. There is absolutely no good reason not to do this.