Why do people want veteran ranks removed?

thunderwell

PBpsy wrote: »

You are right. The vet system removal was made just to bring back the most lazy in fickle type of mmo player.This of course will not be enough to satisfy them since these are the type of players that scream for nerfs and are appalled that /godmode and /addlevel isn't a thing.

Actually, quite the contrary for many of these "lazy" MMOers.
A lot of players want to play, and not feel like they're falling behind faster than content is being released.
These players have lives outside of games.
This veterans rank stuff makes me not want to even grind through it the first time.
That said, nor should there be an easy, give me everything now button.
I want to progress and feel like I can at least stay reasonably close to end game content.
But I guess MMOs should cater only to people whom live in their parents basements and have no lives outside their MMO.
And casuals should stick to single player games.

Strontium-Dog

To be honest if it was EQ style(old school) and the exp needed per level ramped up drastically and the levels went from 50-64 then no one would complain.....except we would because the way we earn it isnt really much fun and isnt that the goal of a game after all.

Im ok with end levels being tough but dont want to redo other alliances missions, I can/want to do that as an alt on that side. And I dont want to grind the whole time ala EQ.


Given something *real* to do I dont think there would be quite as much issue.

lolzbuckets

Honestly, while I can see the issue with the existence of veteran ranks, I can't bring myself to care about it. All the arguments against it that people have can be boiled down to identical arguments about level caps. If the issue is about content gating, there are really only two workarounds: either the publishers open all content to everyone, or you can suck it up and level up.

To me, this complaint seems an awful lot like complaining that you have to play through the game to progress through the game. Nobody complains that they have to *play* Megaman to unlock the Megaman powers they didn't start with. That seems to be a complaint that is entirely unique to MMOs.

As for the balance-in-PVP thing...I just don't get that. Character level seems to have very little actual impact on your ability to win a fight in PVP. As a VR-5+, I have died in 1v1 and 2v2 fights against people whose levels were below 40, because even at level 40, you can grind up enough skill points to have a 100% complete character build, and you can craft full gear sets, and champion points are distributed to all your alts, and there are even some gear sets that only spawn in specific pre-50 level ranges, which get scaled up to be viable when you enter Cyrodiil... Any argument claiming that there is an insurmountable gap between a level 30 and a VR-14 character in Cyrodiil seems incredibly specious to me.

So...it seems fairly well-established, especially with the recent patch that included potion-scaling in Cyrodiil and an experience boosting food, that levels don't really have that much to do with content gating or PVP, unless you *really* want to do trials or quest in Cadwell's Silver or Gold before you hit level 50 (which, turns out, you can actually do; I glitched my way into The Rift 100% by accident at level 42, and lemme tell you, the terror of realizing that those "level 5" tigers were not actually level 5 as I ran for the nearest wayshrine was real...). And even if content was legit gated by levels...that would line this game up with literally every other MMO ever.

Honestly, Veteran Ranks seem like a fairly elegant solution to the level grind when compared with games like WoW, which is the benchmark against which other MMOs are often measured. They just increased the level cap by 10 every DLC, and all your shiny orange level 50 gear was now worse than level 52 green gear, and have fun grinding your way through the new content and then to the new level cap, because just finishing all the content wouldn't get you to the new cap... Right up until the level cap hit 100, at which point they added a be-level-90-button because that's a lot of grinding for a newbie.

I would add to the system, not remove it entirely, which seems like it would break more things than it would fix. And they seem to be doing that. The Imperial City DLC will be reducing the amount of experience each veteran rank requires by 15%, as well as increasing exp rates and making those first 200 champion ranks easier to grind out, as well as increasing the cap a bit and adding new content...I mean, seriously, compared with many other games that are still super-popular today, this is a pretty good system. It incorporates pieces from some other MMOs, but does a better job with them than their originators do in many respects, insofar as it can while remaining clearly an Elder Scrolls title. For example, there's one MMO in particular that I *like* the leveling system of more, where you only *need* to make one character, because they can become every class and switch between them at will outside of combat or dungeons, and races are all basically the same at endgame, outside of appearances. ESO takes a bit of that approach, giving every character access to almost every skill line, except for the need to pick a class, and the fact that races matter more than they do in that other game, because this is an Elder Scrolls game and races matter.

tl;dr: most of the complaints against the Veteran Rank system are incredibly specious; the Veteran Rank system is actually an unusually elegant approach to leveling for the genre; removing Veteran Ranks would very likely cause more problems than it would fix.

Second tl;dr f your complaint is that you don't have time to grind: pick a different genre. This is the *most* casual-friendly MMO I've ever seen. Suck it up.

Edited for better analogy.

zornyan

As a fresh console player here's my opinion, there needs to be a massive grind at endgame, because die hard gamers like a grind, they want to feel like they've done something to make them feel elite.

But it needs to be far off into the distance, I used to play anarchy online, a huge mmorpg that's been going 15 + years and still going strong. It's free to download the Base game with the original 3 expansions (on about the 10th now) and is a monthly subscription.

The levels were originally 1-100 taking approx 3 months for me to hit 100 as a casual (hardcore players could do it in a few weeks, by the time I got there, it was increased to 200, with different locations to grind different levels.

By the time I got to 180 it hit 220, with the last 20 being shadow levels, that took weeks upon weeks for each level.you had a choice, once you hit 200 (which for hardcore gamers could be done in a couple.months or casuals within 4-5 months), to either stay there, or go to a special location to get shadow levels.

The advantages were pvp levels were a set range of say a level 200 could only fight 190-201 and a 220 could only fight 210-220 leveled players.meaning essentially, only hardcore gamers would be fighting other high level hardcore gamers in pvp, they had no advantage over lower levels, and yet they could be kings of their own shadow pvp levels.

Basically if they said at level 50 you could either stay there and not level vet ranks if you didn't want (so you're not forced to enter vet ranks) or you could go get vet ranks if you chose to, yet vet players could only fight vet players in pvp, (they'll get a couple dungeons too for pve players) I think that would hugely help.

People's biggest problem is the grind, take away the grind for casuals, yet give hardcores their own level to battle on, as such.

Kulvar

Veteran ranks is not a bad thing in itself. Let me explain.

Considered three players.
- Jack: VR max in full gold gear.
- Daniel: VR max, but only full green gear.
- Lucy: VR max-1, in full gold gear.

How are the statistics gap between these three characters?
If it is null, the winner of the fight will be base only by their skill.
If it is small, Jack will have a statistics advantage, but not enough to overcome Daniel or Lucy if they are more skilled than him.
If it is huge, Jack will win because of the unfair advantage from its gear and Daniel or Lucy skillplay will not help.

For PvP, fairness is not an absolute rule, but absolute unfairness is boring for everyone except those who love to crush others.
Two way to deal with statistics gap :
- Compressing statistics to reduce the gap
- Remove the gap by giving everyone the same statistics

The compression let people build their character freely in the straight line of every Elder Scrolls while the second way enforce the clone syndrom by making everyone identical, lessening the diversity and the freedom of choice.

Both can be mix, seeing that Zenimax Online Studios will add a leveling to VR 14 green gear in PvP areas for everyone under VR 14. But it is of no use if a VR 16 gold can kill many VR 14 green geared characters without skillplay. We still fall in the "boring" PvP.

To summarize: Skill should matter more than Gear, but Gear can still have an influence.

zornyan

Hopefully they can get a good balance, I think pvp is a huge thing in this game as with all online games it generally helps keep it alive as pve always has a quick endgame, which is always repetitive.pvp is the only solution in online gaming that can potentially make every encounter a new and exciting one that pushes your skills and abilities to the limit.

If zeni can make the balance work, then ESO will do very well imo

BretonBadger

These need to go. I will seriously quit eventually if they don't. I love my sorc but I love to tinker/mess with new and exciting things, and honestly, getting to VR16 on my Sorc has been painful enough as a gamer with a life, (still not there yet. Even with 12 days of /played) despite the recent XP buffs to certain activities (dungeons, quests).

It'd be super easy for them to switch gear over from VR to CP level. That makes messing around on alts more plausible and enjoyable, you can gear up your different alts and try them out as soon as they hit 50. I will quit. My friends are already starting to quit and become less receptive to this game as a result of this grind. People want to be and feel like they're at end-game ASAP. If it takes forever to get there, that's a problem. It's even worse when AOE grinding is the most effective way.

There's lots of cool things in this game that keep plenty of people here, but I think the devs are super short-sighted for not getting rid of these when they promised to over a year ago. Again, I was happy when I was getting my first to 50 hearing that they were getting rid of it.

Jade1986

Laziness, pure and simple. The VR ranks do not take that long to get through anymore. And yes, I do have a life outside of gaming, so the whole " gamers that have a life " argument is just stupid. I would argue that people with a life should be ALL FOR the VR system because if you do not have the time to game a whole lot, you should focus your time and energy that you do have for gaming on your main character all the time, instead of making numerous alts. Hell, I reached V2 before even getting out of coldharbour!

hardcore_gmr

that necro tho.....

The answer to why players want VR ranks removed is simple, they think that it will give them more access to content and allow them to keep up with max level players in Cyrodil. This is incorrect thinking by the way because as any VR 16 player can attest, level means very little once you reach VR level, the real draw is the Champion points. This is where players are improving their characters, and the only reason VR level is considered is because of the level and stats of the gear that drops in the world. In truth the actual level cap is 65, and after level 50 you gain access to champion points. People wanting the level cap lowered believe that somehow ZoS will magic take away the extra 14 attribute points, alter all the VR 16 gear to level 50, change all the material to level 50, lower the requirement for trials and DSA and change craglorn and IC white gold tower to level 50. This is not the case, the only thing that will change when they remove VR ranks is how long it takes to level through VR, and it will likely be called level 65 content.

TheNephilimCrow

PBpsy wrote: »

You are right. The vet system removal was made just to bring back the most lazy in fickle type of mmo player.

You do realize that you are describing roughly 65% of the community that uses this forum, ya? It's the reason we see all of these nerf threads. People are extremely lazy and refuse to actually work to be good at something, like using counters against classes they call OP.

Cody

The required XP has been lowered, so its not that big of a deal. I still dislike them though.

Stannum

Cody wrote: »

The required XP has been lowered, so its not that big of a deal. I still dislike them though.

when you play one character it's true. But playing one char all the time is boring. And when you spend lots of time to level all 8 chars to have an oppotunity to play today the char who matches you moode.. And, wtf, you need to level another 16VRs (2 for each) again and do lots of boring grinding for mats to craft them new gear.

jakeedmundson

TheNephilimCrow wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

You are right. The vet system removal was made just to bring back the most lazy in fickle type of mmo player.

You do realize that you are describing roughly 65% of the community that uses this forum, ya? It's the reason we see all of these nerf threads. People are extremely lazy and refuse to actually work to be good at something, like using counters against classes they call OP.

It's pretty funny and almost... sad... when people describe playing a game like it should be a job.

playing a game should be lazy and a leisure activity... these hours and hours of "grinding" for better gear and higher CP is pushing me away. (i know i'm not alone) I want to have fun and enjoy the game i play... not put dozens of hours in so i can get that 1 piece of gear or that 650th champion point. (i have about 100)

bsmorrowb14_ESO

I've never understood why they were labeled "Veteran Ranks". Why not just call them what they are, "Levels"? V16 is really, what, Level 65?

Defilted

I have always been 4 levels higher than the content I am leveling in on XBOX. I was Vet 2 when I left Cold H. I am in Alik'r and I am Vet 14. Stil have 1 more zone to complete gold and Craglorn. I will be Vet 16 before I finish gold more than likely or very close.

I have experienced no issues leveling in the Vet system. There is nothing wrong with it on the console. I only play 1 character however and for the people that cannot just play 1 toon I can see there being plenty of time spent before reaching max level.

LeoTheBatiamigo

I purchased the game two months ago and i haven't done any PvP at all. I 100% The Ebonheart Pact and made it to Daggerfall now am currently in Rivenspire about 85% for the city. I didn't purchase the game for PvP i purchased for PvE and yes am listening to all the dialog as i go. I'll probably end up leaving the game after am done with Silver and Gold and yes i do plan to 100% those as well. Am currently Vet7 and don't really care about making it to Vet16, since i will eventually leave to go play some of the awesome games coming later this year, like Fallout 4. I loved Oblivion and Skyrim i got platinum trophies for both games, i game on Playstation.

And yes am super exited to play Orsinium the land of the Orcs. Finally some PvE content.

Enodoc

bsmorrowb14_ESO wrote: »

I've never understood why they were labeled "Veteran Ranks". Why not just call them what they are, "Levels"? V16 is really, what, Level 65?

@bsmorrowb14_ESO I explained this somewhere else, but in short, they're not Levels. There's a major technical difference between Levels and Vet Ranks. Level 45 is five levels above Level 40, as expected, but VR2 is the same Level as VR10. Veteran Ranks are all layers on top of Level 50; VR1 is Level 50, and VR16 is Level 50. This can be shown in-game using the LUA commands GetUnitLevel(player), GetUnitVeteranRank(player) and GetUnitEffectiveLevel(player). They are also scaled differently so that it takes a load more XP to go up one Veteran Rank than it does to go up one Level.

jakeedmundson

Enodoc wrote: »

bsmorrowb14_ESO wrote: »

I've never understood why they were labeled "Veteran Ranks". Why not just call them what they are, "Levels"? V16 is really, what, Level 65?

@bsmorrowb14_ESO I explained this somewhere else, but in short, they're not Levels. There's a major technical difference between Levels and Vet Ranks. Level 45 is five levels above Level 40, as expected, but VR2 is the same Level as VR10. Veteran Ranks are all layers on top of Level 50; VR1 is Level 50, and VR16 is Level 50. This can be shown in-game using the LUA commands GetUnitLevel(player), GetUnitVeteranRank(player) and GetUnitEffectiveLevel(player). They are also scaled differently so that it takes a load more XP to go up one Veteran Rank than it does to go up one Level.

I wouldn't say that....
level 50 has 15 less stats to distribute (1 per extra vet rank up to 16) and approx. 90 fewer champion points...
not to mention the level requirements change (and get MUCH better) the higher vet rank you earn.

level 50 is not at all equal to vet 16 rank.

Then at vet 16 you can gain 1000's of CP if you really want to... so even vet 16 doesn't equal vet 16 in many cases.

In every practical sense... vet ranks are different levels.

Cody

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

The required XP has been lowered, so its not that big of a deal. I still dislike them though.

when you play one character it's true. But playing one char all the time is boring. And when you spend lots of time to level all 8 chars to have an oppotunity to play today the char who matches you moode.. And, wtf, you need to level another 16VRs (2 for each) again and do lots of boring grinding for mats to craft them new gear.

I am about to make a new character, and it may very well take me a full year to get them to max rank at this rate. I agree with you, vet ranks are terrible.

However, they are not as bad as they used to be. It used to require 5 million VPs at VR8ish+

Jade1986

LeoTheBatiamigo wrote: »

I purchased the game two months ago and i haven't done any PvP at all. I 100% The Ebonheart Pact and made it to Daggerfall now am currently in Rivenspire about 85% for the city. I didn't purchase the game for PvP i purchased for PvE and yes am listening to all the dialog as i go. I'll probably end up leaving the game after am done with Silver and Gold and yes i do plan to 100% those as well. Am currently Vet7 and don't really care about making it to Vet16, since i will eventually leave to go play some of the awesome games coming later this year, like Fallout 4. I loved Oblivion and Skyrim i got platinum trophies for both games, i game on Playstation.

And yes am super exited to play Orsinium the land of the Orcs. Finally some PvE content.

If you do not experience all of what the game has to offer, do not expect to be v16. V16 is for people that have done or nearly done / experienced everything.

Waffennacht

Wtf? Why are you playing an MMO if it "takes too long" or the "grind is too much"

Why are you playing an MMO if "ugh I only play an hour yet someone who plays 6 beats me!... its so unfair!"?

How about you go play a first person shooter where levels, gear, and time have the leat amount of affect on a game.

I love how long it takes. By now I'd would have completely beat this game and moved on.

I have roughly 300 hours in, have a GF, have a job, cook, clean etc and still manage the time to play at least 4ish hours a day (yes I do only sleep 4 hours a night cause of eso but that's enough)

There is a CP cap now, there will be a lower one soon. Who cares if it takes 5 years to max out if you are having fun?

Seems to me the people that complain about "unless you just want to crush weaklings..." are people whom wanna crush everyone but are upset they can't within a few weeks of playing. ... Cause as is even with gear, even with CP, even with Vet levels, if you put the time in, you'll get to that level.

If you don't wanna put in over 300 hours, then MMOs aren't for you

Cillion3117

MMO's are a marathon, not a 100 yard dash.

VigilantLance

Only casual filth want a removal of Veteran ranks. They want a game that they play for a couple hours and feel rewarded. Basically the "I'm special too" generation of angry bird gamers that feel the need for praise when they do simple things like breathing. Hate to break it to you, but no. You can't have that cookie. This is an MMO. Its meant to reward long term play. It's meant to be about community, casuals don't contribute to that community when they're pumping and dumping the game in a month. Go play Zelda or some other equally banal and simple game where you're the sole hero and you beat it in a week. This game isn't for you if you're not in it for the long haul.

jakeedmundson

VigilantLance wrote: »

Only casual filth want a removal of Veteran ranks. They want a game that they play for a couple hours and feel rewarded. Basically the "I'm special too" generation of angry bird gamers that feel the need for praise when they do simple things like breathing. Hate to break it to you, but no. You can't have that cookie. This is an MMO. Its meant to reward long term play. It's meant to be about community, casuals don't contribute to that community when they're pumping and dumping the game in a month. Go play Zelda or some other equally banal and simple game where you're the sole hero and you beat it in a week. This game isn't for you if you're not in it for the long haul.

Get down from your high horse buddy..."elite" players are the minority in this game.
Like all clothing, this game is tailored to fit the majority. A company will not make money if the majority of the player base immediately loses interest in the game.
Just remember... casual players = majority... majority happy = more money... more money = thriving business

And people are losing interest because they have to keep RE farming levels and insane material requirements for gear. IF they don't do that and only use v13-14 gear... they can't compete and/or get through vet16 content.

That being said...
I agree that the vet ranks have a place in the game. They add depth and a different type of style to the game.
I know it sucks to level more than 1 character because its basically like watching grass grow... but that's the way it is.

Stannum

grinding is boring.
When VR12 was max vr it was optimal as you have time to learn the game mech well, level and learn all skillines you want. And you could comlete it not with boring grinding but passing through game content. After that you can improve your own skill, try differet builds, have fun in PvP or on different PvE trials but you have no need to grind more levels cause they decided to add another two. And when you have all 8 alts to try lots of different class/race builds it becomes really a problem when instead of having fun in PvP or doing couplr on dailies with friends you have to go for grinding.

Jade1986

jakeedmundson wrote: »

VigilantLance wrote: »

Only casual filth want a removal of Veteran ranks. They want a game that they play for a couple hours and feel rewarded. Basically the "I'm special too" generation of angry bird gamers that feel the need for praise when they do simple things like breathing. Hate to break it to you, but no. You can't have that cookie. This is an MMO. Its meant to reward long term play. It's meant to be about community, casuals don't contribute to that community when they're pumping and dumping the game in a month. Go play Zelda or some other equally banal and simple game where you're the sole hero and you beat it in a week. This game isn't for you if you're not in it for the long haul.

Get down from your high horse buddy..."elite" players are the minority in this game.
Like all clothing, this game is tailored to fit the majority. A company will not make money if the majority of the player base immediately loses interest in the game.
Just remember... casual players = majority... majority happy = more money... more money = thriving business

And people are losing interest because they have to keep RE farming levels and insane material requirements for gear. IF they don't do that and only use v13-14 gear... they can't compete and/or get through vet16 content.

That being said...
I agree that the vet ranks have a place in the game. They add depth and a different type of style to the game.
I know it sucks to level more than 1 character because its basically like watching grass grow... but that's the way it is.

Casuals may be the majority, but even casuals want a game that rewards long term play, not instant gratification. I wouldn't even call the people that want instant gratification casuals, I would call them flakes, because that is what they really are. Even casuals complain when there isn't enough content in game. MMOs are created with a 10 year plan in mind, and they will never last 10 years if you can get everything in a couple weeks.

jakeedmundson

laced wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

VigilantLance wrote: »

Only casual filth want a removal of Veteran ranks. They want a game that they play for a couple hours and feel rewarded. Basically the "I'm special too" generation of angry bird gamers that feel the need for praise when they do simple things like breathing. Hate to break it to you, but no. You can't have that cookie. This is an MMO. Its meant to reward long term play. It's meant to be about community, casuals don't contribute to that community when they're pumping and dumping the game in a month. Go play Zelda or some other equally banal and simple game where you're the sole hero and you beat it in a week. This game isn't for you if you're not in it for the long haul.

Get down from your high horse buddy..."elite" players are the minority in this game.
Like all clothing, this game is tailored to fit the majority. A company will not make money if the majority of the player base immediately loses interest in the game.
Just remember... casual players = majority... majority happy = more money... more money = thriving business

And people are losing interest because they have to keep RE farming levels and insane material requirements for gear. IF they don't do that and only use v13-14 gear... they can't compete and/or get through vet16 content.

That being said...
I agree that the vet ranks have a place in the game. They add depth and a different type of style to the game.
I know it sucks to level more than 1 character because its basically like watching grass grow... but that's the way it is.

Casuals may be the majority, but even casuals want a game that rewards long term play, not instant gratification. I wouldn't even call the people that want instant gratification casuals, I would call them flakes, because that is what they really are. Even casuals complain when there isn't enough content in game. MMOs are created with a 10 year plan in mind, and they will never last 10 years if you can get everything in a couple weeks.

Where did you pull that from? 10 years? If they want this game to last 10 years then they shouldn't keep planning for fallout and the next elder scrolls series.
How many people eso lose to Fallout? How many people have already dropped this game because they are sick of the endless grind? (WOW did things like this to start out... but that changed pretty quick didn't it..) And how many people will drop this (out of annoyance/boredom) to play something else?
Countless people... then only the "Elites" will have the game and no money to keep paying for it.

So for the 10 years idea.... To quote Taken - "Good Luck" (I'm not staying to get to vet 46 by doing the same dungeons and leveling through the same content)

WOW is one of the very few to accomplish that 10 year mark... and they made things pretty damn easy to keep casual players interested.

btw... i never said instant gratification was the right way to go. Should you have to put some time in to get what you want?
Absolutely... Should you need to use literally TEN TIMES the materials per piece of gear after an update? When they are harder to find/obtain? Hell... No...( i'm sorry, but that's a terrible way of adding "content")

Jade1986

jakeedmundson wrote: »

laced wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

VigilantLance wrote: »

Only casual filth want a removal of Veteran ranks. They want a game that they play for a couple hours and feel rewarded. Basically the "I'm special too" generation of angry bird gamers that feel the need for praise when they do simple things like breathing. Hate to break it to you, but no. You can't have that cookie. This is an MMO. Its meant to reward long term play. It's meant to be about community, casuals don't contribute to that community when they're pumping and dumping the game in a month. Go play Zelda or some other equally banal and simple game where you're the sole hero and you beat it in a week. This game isn't for you if you're not in it for the long haul.

Get down from your high horse buddy..."elite" players are the minority in this game.
Like all clothing, this game is tailored to fit the majority. A company will not make money if the majority of the player base immediately loses interest in the game.
Just remember... casual players = majority... majority happy = more money... more money = thriving business

And people are losing interest because they have to keep RE farming levels and insane material requirements for gear. IF they don't do that and only use v13-14 gear... they can't compete and/or get through vet16 content.

That being said...
I agree that the vet ranks have a place in the game. They add depth and a different type of style to the game.
I know it sucks to level more than 1 character because its basically like watching grass grow... but that's the way it is.

Casuals may be the majority, but even casuals want a game that rewards long term play, not instant gratification. I wouldn't even call the people that want instant gratification casuals, I would call them flakes, because that is what they really are. Even casuals complain when there isn't enough content in game. MMOs are created with a 10 year plan in mind, and they will never last 10 years if you can get everything in a couple weeks.

Where did you pull that from? 10 years? If they want this game to last 10 years then they shouldn't keep planning for fallout and the next elder scrolls series.
How many people eso lose to Fallout? How many people have already dropped this game because they are sick of the endless grind? (WOW did things like this to start out... but that changed pretty quick didn't it..) And how many people will drop this (out of annoyance/boredom) to play something else?
Countless people... then only the "Elites" will have the game and no money to keep paying for it.

So for the 10 years idea.... To quote Taken - "Good Luck" (I'm not staying to get to vet 46 by doing the same dungeons and leveling through the same content)

WOW is one of the very few to accomplish that 10 year mark... and they made things pretty damn easy to keep casual players interested.

btw... i never said instant gratification was the right way to go. Should you have to put some time in to get what you want?
Absolutely... Should you need to use literally TEN TIMES the materials per piece of gear after an update? When they are harder to find/obtain? Hell... No...( i'm sorry, but that's a terrible way of adding "content")

There would be absolutely no point to do dungeons more than one time if they made it incredibly easy to craft gear on par with the best drops in the game. If you guys want stuff within weeks, just like others have said, you are playing the wrong type of game. People play MMOs for the long term, not for the short term.

Also, it is clear you do not understand who is actually making this game. ZoS makes this game. Bethesda makes the single player fallout and elder scrolls games. Two different teams. So if fallout comes out, big whoop, no resources have been taken from ESO. People will get bored if there is a lack of content and if they can get everything quickly, not if they have something to do for a long period of time. I don't grind at all and have pretty good gear and am V3 before I even left Khenarthis roost after finishing Coldharbour on the Daggerfall Covenant.

I have an apprenticeship, work, and have multiple hobbies outside of gaming, but I still would not under any circumstances want this game dumbed down to the point where I can get everything in a matter of weeks. I was one of the people that left the game shortly after launch, but I came back because there is actually something to do now, unlike before. I guarantee you I will be v 16 by the time I finish all 3 factions on my main, do craglorn, and do the IC dungeons, it won't even be a problem.

jakeedmundson

laced wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

laced wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

VigilantLance wrote: »

Only casual filth want a removal of Veteran ranks. They want a game that they play for a couple hours and feel rewarded. Basically the "I'm special too" generation of angry bird gamers that feel the need for praise when they do simple things like breathing. Hate to break it to you, but no. You can't have that cookie. This is an MMO. Its meant to reward long term play. It's meant to be about community, casuals don't contribute to that community when they're pumping and dumping the game in a month. Go play Zelda or some other equally banal and simple game where you're the sole hero and you beat it in a week. This game isn't for you if you're not in it for the long haul.

Get down from your high horse buddy..."elite" players are the minority in this game.
Like all clothing, this game is tailored to fit the majority. A company will not make money if the majority of the player base immediately loses interest in the game.
Just remember... casual players = majority... majority happy = more money... more money = thriving business

And people are losing interest because they have to keep RE farming levels and insane material requirements for gear. IF they don't do that and only use v13-14 gear... they can't compete and/or get through vet16 content.

That being said...
I agree that the vet ranks have a place in the game. They add depth and a different type of style to the game.
I know it sucks to level more than 1 character because its basically like watching grass grow... but that's the way it is.

Casuals may be the majority, but even casuals want a game that rewards long term play, not instant gratification. I wouldn't even call the people that want instant gratification casuals, I would call them flakes, because that is what they really are. Even casuals complain when there isn't enough content in game. MMOs are created with a 10 year plan in mind, and they will never last 10 years if you can get everything in a couple weeks.

Where did you pull that from? 10 years? If they want this game to last 10 years then they shouldn't keep planning for fallout and the next elder scrolls series.
How many people eso lose to Fallout? How many people have already dropped this game because they are sick of the endless grind? (WOW did things like this to start out... but that changed pretty quick didn't it..) And how many people will drop this (out of annoyance/boredom) to play something else?
Countless people... then only the "Elites" will have the game and no money to keep paying for it.

So for the 10 years idea.... To quote Taken - "Good Luck" (I'm not staying to get to vet 46 by doing the same dungeons and leveling through the same content)

WOW is one of the very few to accomplish that 10 year mark... and they made things pretty damn easy to keep casual players interested.

btw... i never said instant gratification was the right way to go. Should you have to put some time in to get what you want?
Absolutely... Should you need to use literally TEN TIMES the materials per piece of gear after an update? When they are harder to find/obtain? Hell... No...( i'm sorry, but that's a terrible way of adding "content")

There would be absolutely no point to do dungeons more than one time if they made it incredibly easy to craft gear on par with the best drops in the game. If you guys want stuff within weeks, just like others have said, you are playing the wrong type of game. People play MMOs for the long term, not for the short term.

Also, it is clear you do not understand who is actually making this game. ZoS makes this game. Bethesda makes the single player fallout and elder scrolls games. Two different teams. So if fallout comes out, big whoop, no resources have been taken from ESO. People will get bored if there is a lack of content and if they can get everything quickly, not if they have something to do for a long period of time. I don't grind at all and have pretty good gear and am V3 before I even left Khenarthis roost after finishing Coldharbour on the Daggerfall Covenant.

I have an apprenticeship, work, and have multiple hobbies outside of gaming, but I still would not under any circumstances want this game dumbed down to the point where I can get everything in a matter of weeks. I was one of the people that left the game shortly after launch, but I came back because there is actually something to do now, unlike before. I guarantee you I will be v 16 by the time I finish all 3 factions on my main, do craglorn, and do the IC dungeons, it won't even be a problem.

So you're not even vet 16 and trying to give advice on endgame?... ok...it's great if you have good gear at vet 3... that doesn't even compare to the endgame material.

First... noone said that everything should just be easy peasy and given away... but there is a huge difference between being too easy and having ridiculous requirements to get anything. Meet somewhere in the middle.
Crafted gear at 9 traits already has tough requirements on its own... I will have any and all dungeon related gear i want long before i can make my armor master set pieces.
plus...i'm not going to get multiple stacks of ingots to do 1 crafting writ with little rewards or find 1000 more pieces to craft my armor. (v15-16 materials are more rare to find which already makes it more difficult/time consuming)

Second...People ARE already getting bored of the grind... that's all there is to it.
I've had quite a few friends and guildmates stop playing because of it. They get to 14/16 and get bored of grinding for nothing. How many guilds out there have done a purge of guildies?? I've been in two now that have cleaned out the 500 limit down to around 60 active players.... that's an INSANE amount of dropped players.

Third... this thread is about whether or not veteran levels should be around or not...talking about endgame dungeons and gear is unrelated.
I already agreed that vet levels have their place in this game... i enjoy them.

Jade1986

jakeedmundson wrote: »

laced wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

laced wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

VigilantLance wrote: »

Only casual filth want a removal of Veteran ranks. They want a game that they play for a couple hours and feel rewarded. Basically the "I'm special too" generation of angry bird gamers that feel the need for praise when they do simple things like breathing. Hate to break it to you, but no. You can't have that cookie. This is an MMO. Its meant to reward long term play. It's meant to be about community, casuals don't contribute to that community when they're pumping and dumping the game in a month. Go play Zelda or some other equally banal and simple game where you're the sole hero and you beat it in a week. This game isn't for you if you're not in it for the long haul.

Get down from your high horse buddy..."elite" players are the minority in this game.
Like all clothing, this game is tailored to fit the majority. A company will not make money if the majority of the player base immediately loses interest in the game.
Just remember... casual players = majority... majority happy = more money... more money = thriving business

And people are losing interest because they have to keep RE farming levels and insane material requirements for gear. IF they don't do that and only use v13-14 gear... they can't compete and/or get through vet16 content.

That being said...
I agree that the vet ranks have a place in the game. They add depth and a different type of style to the game.
I know it sucks to level more than 1 character because its basically like watching grass grow... but that's the way it is.

Casuals may be the majority, but even casuals want a game that rewards long term play, not instant gratification. I wouldn't even call the people that want instant gratification casuals, I would call them flakes, because that is what they really are. Even casuals complain when there isn't enough content in game. MMOs are created with a 10 year plan in mind, and they will never last 10 years if you can get everything in a couple weeks.

Where did you pull that from? 10 years? If they want this game to last 10 years then they shouldn't keep planning for fallout and the next elder scrolls series.
How many people eso lose to Fallout? How many people have already dropped this game because they are sick of the endless grind? (WOW did things like this to start out... but that changed pretty quick didn't it..) And how many people will drop this (out of annoyance/boredom) to play something else?
Countless people... then only the "Elites" will have the game and no money to keep paying for it.

So for the 10 years idea.... To quote Taken - "Good Luck" (I'm not staying to get to vet 46 by doing the same dungeons and leveling through the same content)

WOW is one of the very few to accomplish that 10 year mark... and they made things pretty damn easy to keep casual players interested.

btw... i never said instant gratification was the right way to go. Should you have to put some time in to get what you want?
Absolutely... Should you need to use literally TEN TIMES the materials per piece of gear after an update? When they are harder to find/obtain? Hell... No...( i'm sorry, but that's a terrible way of adding "content")

There would be absolutely no point to do dungeons more than one time if they made it incredibly easy to craft gear on par with the best drops in the game. If you guys want stuff within weeks, just like others have said, you are playing the wrong type of game. People play MMOs for the long term, not for the short term.

Also, it is clear you do not understand who is actually making this game. ZoS makes this game. Bethesda makes the single player fallout and elder scrolls games. Two different teams. So if fallout comes out, big whoop, no resources have been taken from ESO. People will get bored if there is a lack of content and if they can get everything quickly, not if they have something to do for a long period of time. I don't grind at all and have pretty good gear and am V3 before I even left Khenarthis roost after finishing Coldharbour on the Daggerfall Covenant.

I have an apprenticeship, work, and have multiple hobbies outside of gaming, but I still would not under any circumstances want this game dumbed down to the point where I can get everything in a matter of weeks. I was one of the people that left the game shortly after launch, but I came back because there is actually something to do now, unlike before. I guarantee you I will be v 16 by the time I finish all 3 factions on my main, do craglorn, and do the IC dungeons, it won't even be a problem.

So you're not even vet 16 and trying to give advice on endgame?... ok...it's great if you have good gear at vet 3... that doesn't even compare to the endgame material.

First... noone said that everything should just be easy peasy and given away... but there is a huge difference between being too easy and having ridiculous requirements to get anything. Meet somewhere in the middle.
Crafted gear at 9 traits already has tough requirements on its own... I will have any and all dungeon related gear i want long before i can make my armor master set pieces.
plus...i'm not going to get multiple stacks of ingots to do 1 crafting writ with little rewards or find 1000 more pieces to craft my armor. (v15-16 materials are more rare to find which already makes it more difficult/time consuming)

Second...People ARE already getting bored of the grind... that's all there is to it.
I've had quite a few friends and guildmates stop playing because of it. They get to 14/16 and get bored of grinding for nothing. How many guilds out there have done a purge of guildies?? I've been in two now that have cleaned out the 500 limit down to around 60 active players.... that's an INSANE amount of dropped players.

Third... this thread is about whether or not veteran levels should be around or not...talking about endgame dungeons and gear is unrelated.
I already agreed that vet levels have their place in this game... i enjoy them.

If they are already getting bored of the grind, then they are flakes, simple as. I can flip that guild info around on you, I have had my guild, that was completely dead be revived because they enjoy how the game is now versus how it was when released, and a lot, like myself, have cancelled our subs in other games and subbed here now. Just because you see something from your point of view, does not mean -everyone- does that. They are happy that there is a lot to do.