Why do people want veteran ranks removed?

Dagoth_Rac · December 2014

Everyone I know who left the game left because of Vet Ranks. They all finished the main story after a month or two, enjoyed it very much, decided to jump into endgame and ... realized they had another 2 or 3 months of questing/grinding/PvP/etc., before they hit the real level cap.

I did not mind the Veteran Ranks. It took me almost 9 months to get to VR14. I was in no hurry. Did not really care if I was not maxed out. There always seemed to be plenty to do, both solo and grouped, even when I was at VR4 or VR7 or some other non-max level.

But for a lot of people, getting to that max level is a huge deal. They feel that when two max level players face off in PvP or on a leaderboard, the difference is skill. Whereas when you are not max level, they feel that they may be just as skilled a player, maybe even more skilled, but that is obscured by the stat gap between them and max level.

So you have a difficult balancing act. You want to make sure that a guy who just subscribed today, no matter how skilled he is, cannot just waltz into Cyrodiil and crown himself emperor 5 minutes after creating his character. But you don't want such a long road to endgame that people get discouraged and quit (which I saw a lot of among my real life friends).

From my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, the VR experience skewed too far to the "takes too long" side of the above paragraph. The hope is that the Level 50 max + Champion Point system will find a happy medium between "too easy to reach endgame" and "too long to reach endgame".

Time will tell if they get it right.

LtCrunch · December 2014

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Let me provide a concise summary of this post. You don't like playing the game how it is currently designed. You also would prefer a complete overhaul of the game instead of offering a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

Why in the world would any sensible person support your position?

No I would like a system that allows you to choose how you want to play it. Meaning you can do any and all content not be forced into one or have to pay to skip it if you don't like it. Taking out vet ranks is not going to make you skip any system its going to give you the option to do them instead of forcing you into it.

Lets put it this way

Player 1 hits VR1 and endgame to you is PVP so you want to PVP. Well great but you will get facerolled over by a VR14 everytime and continually losing is not fun.

Player 2 feels trials and raids are endgame they enjoy. They hit VR1 and want to do trials, Tough crap your aren't VR14 you will do nothing but die and hold your group back.

Player 3 wants to quest only. Great they can do silver and gold and get levels and progress through good for him.

2/3 players not happy.

With Champion System after level 50 scale

Player 1 wants to PVP hits 50 great he can PVP and earn Champion points. His character progresses while not getting murdered by everyone on the field every 10 seconds. Winning is fun

Player 2 Wants to do trials. Great now he can because everyone is level 50 and he holds no one back based on his level. He also earns Champion points and can still progress his character. He now has fun

Player 3 wants to quest. He does silver and gold while getting Champion points and can still progress his character. He is still happy

3/3 players happy.

You are proving the point of why this change SUCKS for some ppl. Your 3/3 only counts for player 3 if he hasn't done silver/gold already. If he has when this goes live (even if he has done it multiple times) it will count for NOTHING. No CP AT ALL. Player 3 most certainly NOT HAPPY. Sure, new players will be fine because they haven't completed it yet but that is not everyone by any stretch.

Trials, Dungeons, PVP, daily quests(Undaunted, Cyrodiil, Craglorn), etc. are all ways to progress within the champion system even if you have already done silver/gold. My main is a VR14 and I can't wait until 1.6.

If you really believe that trials (which require an organized, balanced and skilled team of 12 people all online at the same time) is equal to 14 vet levels of solo content with huge XP rewards for the story missions is the same..there is little hope for you. Most people don't have the opportunity to access trials for numerous reasons so no it's not equal. Undaunted and Craglorn are also GROUP content so no..it's not an substitute for XP-rich SOLO content. Cyrodiil is PvP which by it's very definition is not PvE content and has historically provided terrible XP gain. Your examples of alternative XP sources = FAIL.

My point is there are alternate ways to gain XP outside of silver/gold and ZOS themselves have said XP gains are being tweaked to make these things(PVP, Trials, Dungeons,etc.) more worthwhile. Cyrodiil may be a zone with PVP flagged on but there are 10 PVE quests per major city(that's 50 quests) and they're repeatable daily, no group required.

Just because you don't approve or like the alternative options does not make them any less viable options.

Will it make up for the "lost" XP/VP from already having done silver/gold(which btw is not lost until vet ranks are completely removed)? Not right away, and it doesn't need to right away. 1.6 is not removing vet ranks. We'll still be VR14 with all of the increased stats, better gear, etc. that comes along with that. 1.7 is when legitimate issues could arise. When 1.6 drops it's a non-issue.

EQBallzz · December 2014

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Let me provide a concise summary of this post. You don't like playing the game how it is currently designed. You also would prefer a complete overhaul of the game instead of offering a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

Why in the world would any sensible person support your position?

No I would like a system that allows you to choose how you want to play it. Meaning you can do any and all content not be forced into one or have to pay to skip it if you don't like it. Taking out vet ranks is not going to make you skip any system its going to give you the option to do them instead of forcing you into it.

Lets put it this way

Player 1 hits VR1 and endgame to you is PVP so you want to PVP. Well great but you will get facerolled over by a VR14 everytime and continually losing is not fun.

Player 2 feels trials and raids are endgame they enjoy. They hit VR1 and want to do trials, Tough crap your aren't VR14 you will do nothing but die and hold your group back.

Player 3 wants to quest only. Great they can do silver and gold and get levels and progress through good for him.

2/3 players not happy.

With Champion System after level 50 scale

Player 1 wants to PVP hits 50 great he can PVP and earn Champion points. His character progresses while not getting murdered by everyone on the field every 10 seconds. Winning is fun

Player 2 Wants to do trials. Great now he can because everyone is level 50 and he holds no one back based on his level. He also earns Champion points and can still progress his character. He now has fun

Player 3 wants to quest. He does silver and gold while getting Champion points and can still progress his character. He is still happy

3/3 players happy.

You are proving the point of why this change SUCKS for some ppl. Your 3/3 only counts for player 3 if he hasn't done silver/gold already. If he has when this goes live (even if he has done it multiple times) it will count for NOTHING. No CP AT ALL. Player 3 most certainly NOT HAPPY. Sure, new players will be fine because they haven't completed it yet but that is not everyone by any stretch.

So the only thing that current VR14 player want is to go back and do quests they already have? Cause as a VR 14 I do trials, repeatable quests, some PVP. YOu already completed it. So if all you want is to go back and re-do all those quests yet again you are going to have to go make an alt anyway. if you make an alt to do gold and silver guess what! Your still going to get CP!. So what are you doing as a VR14?

Wow. You really have trouble comprehending this stuff. NO, we don't want to go back and do what we already did again. We want *some* form of compensation for the immense effort it took to do it the first time. Whether that's a ratio of the XP it took converted into CP or some flat CP value per vet level. Something. *ANYTHING*.

As a V14 if you want to do trials, PvP and a few repeatable quests you will not be earning very many CP points compared to the millions of XP already earned in silver/gold..that's the point. At least with some credit for that huge amount of consumed content you are not starting at a huge disadvantage for already having completed it.

All you got are insults? Really. I did Gold and silver before the nerf as far as I'm concerned none of you have earned anything at all. And I know you people weren't there cause I was alone during all of it.

Also they already said that lower VR zones are going to have less XP than upper VR zones. That means you as a VR 14 will be earning XP faster than a fresh VR1 so your big old epeens can keep getting bigger and you all can sit around in a circle stroking those epeens!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5-KYa1kipk

Wrong. I have been here since early beta and early release. I not only leveled through original vet content (ie. the much harder and much more required XP version) but I did it on a NB before NB had any improvements and were completely broken. Nice try at a vague attempt to belittle others but once again..FAIL.

They have not said lower VR zones will have less XP. Link it or otherwise prove it or stop making things up. Even if that were true..that doesn't change the fact that some people have completed a huge amount of the game and will have that wiped away while others will complete the same content and not only get full credit but also get 30 CP even if they earned 0 XP in the vet system.

EQBallzz · January 2015

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Let me provide a concise summary of this post. You don't like playing the game how it is currently designed. You also would prefer a complete overhaul of the game instead of offering a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

Why in the world would any sensible person support your position?

No I would like a system that allows you to choose how you want to play it. Meaning you can do any and all content not be forced into one or have to pay to skip it if you don't like it. Taking out vet ranks is not going to make you skip any system its going to give you the option to do them instead of forcing you into it.

Lets put it this way

Player 1 hits VR1 and endgame to you is PVP so you want to PVP. Well great but you will get facerolled over by a VR14 everytime and continually losing is not fun.

Player 2 feels trials and raids are endgame they enjoy. They hit VR1 and want to do trials, Tough crap your aren't VR14 you will do nothing but die and hold your group back.

Player 3 wants to quest only. Great they can do silver and gold and get levels and progress through good for him.

2/3 players not happy.

With Champion System after level 50 scale

Player 1 wants to PVP hits 50 great he can PVP and earn Champion points. His character progresses while not getting murdered by everyone on the field every 10 seconds. Winning is fun

Player 2 Wants to do trials. Great now he can because everyone is level 50 and he holds no one back based on his level. He also earns Champion points and can still progress his character. He now has fun

Player 3 wants to quest. He does silver and gold while getting Champion points and can still progress his character. He is still happy

3/3 players happy.

You are proving the point of why this change SUCKS for some ppl. Your 3/3 only counts for player 3 if he hasn't done silver/gold already. If he has when this goes live (even if he has done it multiple times) it will count for NOTHING. No CP AT ALL. Player 3 most certainly NOT HAPPY. Sure, new players will be fine because they haven't completed it yet but that is not everyone by any stretch.

Trials, Dungeons, PVP, daily quests(Undaunted, Cyrodiil, Craglorn), etc. are all ways to progress within the champion system even if you have already done silver/gold. My main is a VR14 and I can't wait until 1.6.

If you really believe that trials (which require an organized, balanced and skilled team of 12 people all online at the same time) is equal to 14 vet levels of solo content with huge XP rewards for the story missions is the same..there is little hope for you. Most people don't have the opportunity to access trials for numerous reasons so no it's not equal. Undaunted and Craglorn are also GROUP content so no..it's not an substitute for XP-rich SOLO content. Cyrodiil is PvP which by it's very definition is not PvE content and has historically provided terrible XP gain. Your examples of alternative XP sources = FAIL.

My point is there are alternate ways to gain XP outside of silver/gold and ZOS themselves have said XP gains are being tweaked to make these things(PVP, Trials, Dungeons,etc.) more worthwhile. Cyrodiil may be a zone with PVP flagged on but there are 10 PVE quests per major city(that's 50 quests) and they're repeatable daily, no group required.

Just because you don't approve or like the alternative options does not make them any less viable options.

Will it make up for the "lost" XP/VP from already having done silver/gold(which btw is not lost until vet ranks are completely removed)? Not right away, and it doesn't need to right away. 1.6 is not removing vet ranks. We'll still be VR14 with all of the increased stats, better gear, etc. that comes along with that. 1.7 is when legitimate issues could arise. When 1.6 drops it's a non-issue.

I know that's your point and your point is wrong. You can't take away solo content that rewards lots of XP and substitute it with group/pvp content with terrible XP rewards and call it even.

That still doesn't address the fact that some people will end up earning a huge number of CP from silver/gold while others who completed all of it get it literally stripped from their characters. Future XP potential doesn't make up for removed XP. If you did a job for me today and instead of paying you I said..don't worry you can come do a job for me tomorrow and I will pay you for tomorrow only..I doubt you would think that was fair. Why would anyone think that is fair in ESO?

LtCrunch · January 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Let me provide a concise summary of this post. You don't like playing the game how it is currently designed. You also would prefer a complete overhaul of the game instead of offering a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

Why in the world would any sensible person support your position?

No I would like a system that allows you to choose how you want to play it. Meaning you can do any and all content not be forced into one or have to pay to skip it if you don't like it. Taking out vet ranks is not going to make you skip any system its going to give you the option to do them instead of forcing you into it.

Lets put it this way

Player 1 hits VR1 and endgame to you is PVP so you want to PVP. Well great but you will get facerolled over by a VR14 everytime and continually losing is not fun.

Player 2 feels trials and raids are endgame they enjoy. They hit VR1 and want to do trials, Tough crap your aren't VR14 you will do nothing but die and hold your group back.

Player 3 wants to quest only. Great they can do silver and gold and get levels and progress through good for him.

2/3 players not happy.

With Champion System after level 50 scale

Player 1 wants to PVP hits 50 great he can PVP and earn Champion points. His character progresses while not getting murdered by everyone on the field every 10 seconds. Winning is fun

Player 2 Wants to do trials. Great now he can because everyone is level 50 and he holds no one back based on his level. He also earns Champion points and can still progress his character. He now has fun

Player 3 wants to quest. He does silver and gold while getting Champion points and can still progress his character. He is still happy

3/3 players happy.

You are proving the point of why this change SUCKS for some ppl. Your 3/3 only counts for player 3 if he hasn't done silver/gold already. If he has when this goes live (even if he has done it multiple times) it will count for NOTHING. No CP AT ALL. Player 3 most certainly NOT HAPPY. Sure, new players will be fine because they haven't completed it yet but that is not everyone by any stretch.

Trials, Dungeons, PVP, daily quests(Undaunted, Cyrodiil, Craglorn), etc. are all ways to progress within the champion system even if you have already done silver/gold. My main is a VR14 and I can't wait until 1.6.

If you really believe that trials (which require an organized, balanced and skilled team of 12 people all online at the same time) is equal to 14 vet levels of solo content with huge XP rewards for the story missions is the same..there is little hope for you. Most people don't have the opportunity to access trials for numerous reasons so no it's not equal. Undaunted and Craglorn are also GROUP content so no..it's not an substitute for XP-rich SOLO content. Cyrodiil is PvP which by it's very definition is not PvE content and has historically provided terrible XP gain. Your examples of alternative XP sources = FAIL.

My point is there are alternate ways to gain XP outside of silver/gold and ZOS themselves have said XP gains are being tweaked to make these things(PVP, Trials, Dungeons,etc.) more worthwhile. Cyrodiil may be a zone with PVP flagged on but there are 10 PVE quests per major city(that's 50 quests) and they're repeatable daily, no group required.

Just because you don't approve or like the alternative options does not make them any less viable options.

Will it make up for the "lost" XP/VP from already having done silver/gold(which btw is not lost until vet ranks are completely removed)? Not right away, and it doesn't need to right away. 1.6 is not removing vet ranks. We'll still be VR14 with all of the increased stats, better gear, etc. that comes along with that. 1.7 is when legitimate issues could arise. When 1.6 drops it's a non-issue.

I know that's your point and your point is wrong. You can't take away solo group content that rewards lots of XP and substitute it with group/pvp content with terrible XP rewards and call it even.

That still doesn't address the fact that some people will end up earning a huge number of CP from silver/gold while others who completed all of it get it literally stripped from their characters. Future XP potential doesn't make up for removed XP. If you did a job for me today and instead of paying you I said..don't worry you can come do a job for me tomorrow and I will pay you for tomorrow only..I doubt you would think that was fair. Why would anyone think that is fair in ESO?

Cyrodiil city quests are not group or PVP content. It's PVE content and as said they are tweaking XP gains, so things that give "terrible" XP now could give decent or good XP with 1.6.

Strictly talking about 1.6 those that have already done silver/gold aren't losing a damned thing. You still get all of the benefits you earned and 30 CP on top of it. We have no idea what they are or are not going to do once they remove vet ranks. Yes they said there are currently no plans to compensate higher VR characters.

If we've learned anything by the 180 we've seen regarding CP it's that plans change and nothing is final until we've got it in our hands(even then not necessarily, this being an MMO and all). So until vet ranks are removed entirely you're working with lots of assumptions on both ends. I have faith in ZOS and believe they have their jobs for a reason(because they know what they're doing). You obviously don't and that's cool. Your assumptions and opinions are no more valid or important than mine or anyone else's.

DDuke · January 2015

Veteran Ranks = pointless, boring grind

They brought essentially nothing to the game & made no sense story wise, seeming much more like a band-aid fix to the lack of end game content (still an issue).

I'd have preferred (and this is what I first thought they would be like) if the VR zones had different versions with different quests/quest hubs depending which Alliance you are playing.

E.g. a DC character in Stonefalls would get quests from a separate DC outpost there, focused on destroying EP forces & other shenanigans.

Instead we got a lazy time-travel/alternate universe cliche, which is 100% same experience you'd get on an alt of different faction.

EQBallzz · January 2015

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Let me provide a concise summary of this post. You don't like playing the game how it is currently designed. You also would prefer a complete overhaul of the game instead of offering a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

Why in the world would any sensible person support your position?

No I would like a system that allows you to choose how you want to play it. Meaning you can do any and all content not be forced into one or have to pay to skip it if you don't like it. Taking out vet ranks is not going to make you skip any system its going to give you the option to do them instead of forcing you into it.

Lets put it this way

Player 1 hits VR1 and endgame to you is PVP so you want to PVP. Well great but you will get facerolled over by a VR14 everytime and continually losing is not fun.

Player 2 feels trials and raids are endgame they enjoy. They hit VR1 and want to do trials, Tough crap your aren't VR14 you will do nothing but die and hold your group back.

Player 3 wants to quest only. Great they can do silver and gold and get levels and progress through good for him.

2/3 players not happy.

With Champion System after level 50 scale

Player 1 wants to PVP hits 50 great he can PVP and earn Champion points. His character progresses while not getting murdered by everyone on the field every 10 seconds. Winning is fun

Player 2 Wants to do trials. Great now he can because everyone is level 50 and he holds no one back based on his level. He also earns Champion points and can still progress his character. He now has fun

Player 3 wants to quest. He does silver and gold while getting Champion points and can still progress his character. He is still happy

3/3 players happy.

You are proving the point of why this change SUCKS for some ppl. Your 3/3 only counts for player 3 if he hasn't done silver/gold already. If he has when this goes live (even if he has done it multiple times) it will count for NOTHING. No CP AT ALL. Player 3 most certainly NOT HAPPY. Sure, new players will be fine because they haven't completed it yet but that is not everyone by any stretch.

Trials, Dungeons, PVP, daily quests(Undaunted, Cyrodiil, Craglorn), etc. are all ways to progress within the champion system even if you have already done silver/gold. My main is a VR14 and I can't wait until 1.6.

If you really believe that trials (which require an organized, balanced and skilled team of 12 people all online at the same time) is equal to 14 vet levels of solo content with huge XP rewards for the story missions is the same..there is little hope for you. Most people don't have the opportunity to access trials for numerous reasons so no it's not equal. Undaunted and Craglorn are also GROUP content so no..it's not an substitute for XP-rich SOLO content. Cyrodiil is PvP which by it's very definition is not PvE content and has historically provided terrible XP gain. Your examples of alternative XP sources = FAIL.

My point is there are alternate ways to gain XP outside of silver/gold and ZOS themselves have said XP gains are being tweaked to make these things(PVP, Trials, Dungeons,etc.) more worthwhile. Cyrodiil may be a zone with PVP flagged on but there are 10 PVE quests per major city(that's 50 quests) and they're repeatable daily, no group required.

Just because you don't approve or like the alternative options does not make them any less viable options.

Will it make up for the "lost" XP/VP from already having done silver/gold(which btw is not lost until vet ranks are completely removed)? Not right away, and it doesn't need to right away. 1.6 is not removing vet ranks. We'll still be VR14 with all of the increased stats, better gear, etc. that comes along with that. 1.7 is when legitimate issues could arise. When 1.6 drops it's a non-issue.

I know that's your point and your point is wrong. You can't take away solo group content that rewards lots of XP and substitute it with group/pvp content with terrible XP rewards and call it even.

That still doesn't address the fact that some people will end up earning a huge number of CP from silver/gold while others who completed all of it get it literally stripped from their characters. Future XP potential doesn't make up for removed XP. If you did a job for me today and instead of paying you I said..don't worry you can come do a job for me tomorrow and I will pay you for tomorrow only..I doubt you would think that was fair. Why would anyone think that is fair in ESO?

Cyrodiil city quests are not group or PVP content. It's PVE content and as said they are tweaking XP gains, so things that give "terrible" XP now could give decent or good XP with 1.6.

Strictly talking about 1.6 those that have already done silver/gold aren't losing a damned thing. You still get all of the benefits you earned and 30 CP on top of it. We have no idea what they are or are not going to do once they remove vet ranks. Yes they said there are currently no plans to compensate higher VR characters.

If we've learned anything by the 180 we've seen regarding CP it's that plans change and nothing is final until we've got it in our hands(even then not necessarily, this being an MMO and all). So until vet ranks are removed entirely you're working with lots of assumptions on both ends. I have faith in ZOS and believe they have their jobs for a reason(because they know what they're doing). You obviously don't and that's cool. Your assumptions and opinions are no more valid or important than mine or anyone else's.

I don't care about future, as yet unknown plans. Yes, anything is possible. That is the point of the uproar on the forums. To encourage changes before this goes live as planned. That being said..until we see/hear what is going to change we have to assume the current plan is what is being rolled out and that is what we are discussing. The *current* plan. If it changes in the future..we can talk about that when we know about it.

As for Cyrodiil PvE quests being remotely comparable that is not true. Yes, they can improve the XP gain but as someone who did all of them for the achievement..I would *hate* to have to rely on those god awful repeatable quests as my primary source of CP gain. They are terribly boring and require riding back and forth across large patches of Cyrodiil.

Also, f they do become popular for gaining CP..what do you think will happen? That's right, gankers from other factions will come and prey on those who just want CP and don't want to PvP. That is not the same as PvE content if you are forced into being ganked continually just to try and earn an equitable amount of CP. Sorry, those are not the same thing as much as you want them to be.

Goresnort · January 2015

This is a tough cookie

The opinions provided below is just an effort to explain why so many players dislike the VR ranks. I'm not saying that one preference of play is better then another.

And it is not only about if the level cap should be raised in the future or not.

It is more of a progression curve issue, and how the different segments of content fit together.
I actually believe the level cap should rise gradually as time passes.
However, I'm very much against how the vet ranks were implemented from the release of the game.

Just before ESO released, ZOS made a release video saying that 'At level 50, that's when the game really opens up! Go solo, pvp, veteran dungeons or raids. The player decides what they want to do'

(Paul Sage at 6:42 in the video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxJTsq2XeKY

In practical terms, that's not how it ended up unfortunately.

In fact, for many players, it felt like the game did the exact opposite of 'opening up' to varied play styles at level 50, and instead ended up being 'bottle-necked' into Cadwell's Silver and Gold opposite faction experience, or having to find an alternate source to the total xp from Cadwell's Silver and Gold.

Players finished their main faction campaign, and then suddenly found that they had an xp gap equivalent of the content of two more factions before they could be practically eligible for pvp, vet dungeons or pvp.

The mistake in my opinion, was introducing the VR ranks, and forcing ppl to get the xp equivalent of Cadwells silver and gold, before pvp'ers and group oriented pve'ers could play the game they wanted.

I'm also not saying that playing the other factions content is not fun, but given the individual length of each campaign, there is the concept of 'too much of a good thing, and it gets booring'
ESO is quite unique on the western MMO market in regards to how much solo content you have to plough through, in the initial release version, before the game 'opens up'

A lot of players just flipped the finger to playing the other factions, and even though they enjoyed their first faction, they went from finishing Molag Bal and had to carry out a horrendous lengthy repetitive xp grind to fill the VR gap.

It is nice that we have the option to play the other factions content, but we should not be forced into it, and it should not be obligatory to get the xp equivalent of two more factions before we can compete in pvp or go vet group/trial content.

The best thing they can do before console release, is set the progression curve so that once players finish their first campaign, then they are actually given a meaningful choice in their continued game experience.

Either keep soloing, and/or do group content and/or go crag and trials, and/or go competitive pvp.

If that is to be achieved for all the future new players of ESO, then the vet ranks need to be cut out, and having the other factions a part of a levelling curve also has to be cut. That is not saying that experiencing the other factions needs to be cut, but it needs to be cut as a progression curve requirement before being allowed to enjoy the other aspects of the game.

One possible solution is having the other factions zones all become level 50, still give xp for champion points/resources/skillpoints/achivements, and having the choice of going Cad's silver or gold first, or just simply swap between them on the fly.

Does that mean that the level cap in the future cannot be increased gradually for future content releases? I don't think so, and I sure hope not.
With the introduction of Craglorn they could even have slapped on a level or two extra.

Anyways

That was just one player trying to explain why he dislikes the vet ranks and what he thinks should have been done instead, and what he hopes the future will bring ; )

It will be interesting to see how ZOS plans and executes the removal of the vet ranks. Especially since we don't exactly have written in stone confirmation of what will be replacing the vet ranks. ; )

The lead designer of the Champ System dropped a post in October where she addressed the three following questions in regards to Vet rank removal.

1. Will we level 50?
2. Will we be level 64?
3. Will we be something in-between?¨

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1303290#Comment_1303290

The answer in October to all of the above was 'we don't know yet and are exploring our options'

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

minack1preub18_ESO wrote: »

Grinding out veteran ranks is as appealing as an overflowing dumpster. Encouraging players to do it for multiple alts should be classified as a crime against humanity. It's just too bad that it took ZOS half a year to finally listen to their players.

It did not take them half a year for them to listen us. It took them half a year to implement it. Quite hard to implement something when they had other plans for us first.

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Let me provide a concise summary of this post. You don't like playing the game how it is currently designed. You also would prefer a complete overhaul of the game instead of offering a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

Why in the world would any sensible person support your position?

No I would like a system that allows you to choose how you want to play it. Meaning you can do any and all content not be forced into one or have to pay to skip it if you don't like it. Taking out vet ranks is not going to make you skip any system its going to give you the option to do them instead of forcing you into it.

Lets put it this way

Player 1 hits VR1 and endgame to you is PVP so you want to PVP. Well great but you will get facerolled over by a VR14 everytime and continually losing is not fun.

Player 2 feels trials and raids are endgame they enjoy. They hit VR1 and want to do trials, Tough crap your aren't VR14 you will do nothing but die and hold your group back.

Player 3 wants to quest only. Great they can do silver and gold and get levels and progress through good for him.

2/3 players not happy.

With Champion System after level 50 scale

Player 1 wants to PVP hits 50 great he can PVP and earn Champion points. His character progresses while not getting murdered by everyone on the field every 10 seconds. Winning is fun

Player 2 Wants to do trials. Great now he can because everyone is level 50 and he holds no one back based on his level. He also earns Champion points and can still progress his character. He now has fun

Player 3 wants to quest. He does silver and gold while getting Champion points and can still progress his character. He is still happy

3/3 players happy.

You are proving the point of why this change SUCKS for some ppl. Your 3/3 only counts for player 3 if he hasn't done silver/gold already. If he has when this goes live (even if he has done it multiple times) it will count for NOTHING. No CP AT ALL. Player 3 most certainly NOT HAPPY. Sure, new players will be fine because they haven't completed it yet but that is not everyone by any stretch.

Trials, Dungeons, PVP, daily quests(Undaunted, Cyrodiil, Craglorn), etc. are all ways to progress within the champion system even if you have already done silver/gold. My main is a VR14 and I can't wait until 1.6.

If you really believe that trials (which require an organized, balanced and skilled team of 12 people all online at the same time) is equal to 14 vet levels of solo content with huge XP rewards for the story missions is the same..there is little hope for you. Most people don't have the opportunity to access trials for numerous reasons so no it's not equal. Undaunted and Craglorn are also GROUP content so no..it's not an substitute for XP-rich SOLO content. Cyrodiil is PvP which by it's very definition is not PvE content and has historically provided terrible XP gain. Your examples of alternative XP sources = FAIL.

You know they are expanding the amount of xp for that type of content. So his examples of alternative xp sources is not a FAIL.

miahq · January 2015

Honestly, vertical rankings may be the norm, but we really need to get away from that kind of linear thinking to make games more sustainable. Look at what 1st poster said about wow, they give you the option to just up to level 80 from the start simply because it's been around so long, the game isn't fun otherwise. That's what you get with a fertile system.

Instead we need to move more towards branching character systems. Imagine for instance, if for each class/skill set there were 50 separate levels, mostly made up of deep morphs and an increasing range of abilities. You're not necessarily making high level players super, super powerful, instead you're just giving them a much wider range of skills to use. And if you tied that to a leveling system more like oblivion, it means your health, stamina, magicka increases are working off of an entirely independent leveling. No ones going to grind that out, that would be crazy. Instead they're going to grind a bit hear and there, then go play.

How do you keep them playing? By giving them fewer linear quests where you can just look up the walk through on the internet, and more dynamic quests that allow players to create their own stories. Say you steal from someone for instance, but that person was a messenger carrying something belonging to an unknown npc who then gets angry and hires assassins to kill you. Not just npc assassins, but PC assassins. What if they also put a bounty on you and you become a wanted criminal? How do you find out who it is? What they want? How to stop them? By randomizing some of the details it makes each instance unique, and the addition of other PC make it even more interesting. Through one simple act you've allowed not just one player to create their own adventure, but multiple players.

Ultimately that's the kind of thing that's going to keep people playing. Otherwise it's always going to eventually turn into nothing but a grind. Make progression more complex than just, "I'm a level 50," and give them the tools to build their own adventures, and people will keep playing for a very long time, because it's always going to be fun.

EQBallzz · January 2015

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Let me provide a concise summary of this post. You don't like playing the game how it is currently designed. You also would prefer a complete overhaul of the game instead of offering a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

Why in the world would any sensible person support your position?

No I would like a system that allows you to choose how you want to play it. Meaning you can do any and all content not be forced into one or have to pay to skip it if you don't like it. Taking out vet ranks is not going to make you skip any system its going to give you the option to do them instead of forcing you into it.

Lets put it this way

Player 1 hits VR1 and endgame to you is PVP so you want to PVP. Well great but you will get facerolled over by a VR14 everytime and continually losing is not fun.

Player 2 feels trials and raids are endgame they enjoy. They hit VR1 and want to do trials, Tough crap your aren't VR14 you will do nothing but die and hold your group back.

Player 3 wants to quest only. Great they can do silver and gold and get levels and progress through good for him.

2/3 players not happy.

With Champion System after level 50 scale

Player 1 wants to PVP hits 50 great he can PVP and earn Champion points. His character progresses while not getting murdered by everyone on the field every 10 seconds. Winning is fun

Player 2 Wants to do trials. Great now he can because everyone is level 50 and he holds no one back based on his level. He also earns Champion points and can still progress his character. He now has fun

Player 3 wants to quest. He does silver and gold while getting Champion points and can still progress his character. He is still happy

3/3 players happy.

You are proving the point of why this change SUCKS for some ppl. Your 3/3 only counts for player 3 if he hasn't done silver/gold already. If he has when this goes live (even if he has done it multiple times) it will count for NOTHING. No CP AT ALL. Player 3 most certainly NOT HAPPY. Sure, new players will be fine because they haven't completed it yet but that is not everyone by any stretch.

Trials, Dungeons, PVP, daily quests(Undaunted, Cyrodiil, Craglorn), etc. are all ways to progress within the champion system even if you have already done silver/gold. My main is a VR14 and I can't wait until 1.6.

If you really believe that trials (which require an organized, balanced and skilled team of 12 people all online at the same time) is equal to 14 vet levels of solo content with huge XP rewards for the story missions is the same..there is little hope for you. Most people don't have the opportunity to access trials for numerous reasons so no it's not equal. Undaunted and Craglorn are also GROUP content so no..it's not an substitute for XP-rich SOLO content. Cyrodiil is PvP which by it's very definition is not PvE content and has historically provided terrible XP gain. Your examples of alternative XP sources = FAIL.

You know they are expanding the amount of xp for that type of content. So his examples of alternative xp sources is not a FAIL.

It doesn't matter if they expand the XP for that type of content..it's not the same type of content and not everyone has the ability/opportunity to run vet dungeons or do trials. Many people hate PvP. Sorry, it's still FAIL.

The only thing they could do is add an equivalent amount of new PvE story content (like would happen in an actual expansion) but even then..people not getting credit for silver/gold would be at a disadvantage because newer players would have access to silver/gold and the new content which equals vastly more CP opportunity for some people. FAIL.

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

EQBallzz wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Being VR14 forces you to do things you don't want to do.
So lets think about this.

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

2. Go to craglorn. Ok except Craglorn is a VR10+ zone and most groups don't want to carry you. So you can grind but that isn't fun for everyone.

3. Gold and Silver which is currently the best way to level VR ranks. So congrats you just saved the world and brought some form of piece and everyone knows you you super amazing hero you. Now go do it 2 more times while no one knows you.

With the removal of vet ranks and going to 50

1. Be level 50 go to Cyrodill and be competitive.= It works
2. Get to 50 and Go to Craglorn= you don't have to be carried since you are not 13 levels away from everyone else
3. You can go to other territories if you want but you don't actually have to.= Gives the choice without feeling forced.

Constantly adding levels just puts new players farther away from existing players making a huge disconnect. Putting a cap allows newer players to play with existing players and makes everyone happy.

Imagine if you just started playing WoW and they didn't offer the level to 90 option. You start and there is no one in the starting zones. You are lonely and no one to group with. And now you have 10 years of content to complete by yourself. And you can't complete all of it because all the level 90+ is in the last zone spamming LFG while you are in a huge world....alone.

Make sense or did I ramble too much?

Let me provide a concise summary of this post. You don't like playing the game how it is currently designed. You also would prefer a complete overhaul of the game instead of offering a shortcut system like the one you mentioned or the one ZOS currently uses on the PTS which could be implemented on the live server with far less effort and no game overhaul?

Why in the world would any sensible person support your position?

No I would like a system that allows you to choose how you want to play it. Meaning you can do any and all content not be forced into one or have to pay to skip it if you don't like it. Taking out vet ranks is not going to make you skip any system its going to give you the option to do them instead of forcing you into it.

Lets put it this way

Player 1 hits VR1 and endgame to you is PVP so you want to PVP. Well great but you will get facerolled over by a VR14 everytime and continually losing is not fun.

Player 2 feels trials and raids are endgame they enjoy. They hit VR1 and want to do trials, Tough crap your aren't VR14 you will do nothing but die and hold your group back.

Player 3 wants to quest only. Great they can do silver and gold and get levels and progress through good for him.

2/3 players not happy.

With Champion System after level 50 scale

Player 1 wants to PVP hits 50 great he can PVP and earn Champion points. His character progresses while not getting murdered by everyone on the field every 10 seconds. Winning is fun

Player 2 Wants to do trials. Great now he can because everyone is level 50 and he holds no one back based on his level. He also earns Champion points and can still progress his character. He now has fun

Player 3 wants to quest. He does silver and gold while getting Champion points and can still progress his character. He is still happy

3/3 players happy.

You are proving the point of why this change SUCKS for some ppl. Your 3/3 only counts for player 3 if he hasn't done silver/gold already. If he has when this goes live (even if he has done it multiple times) it will count for NOTHING. No CP AT ALL. Player 3 most certainly NOT HAPPY. Sure, new players will be fine because they haven't completed it yet but that is not everyone by any stretch.

Trials, Dungeons, PVP, daily quests(Undaunted, Cyrodiil, Craglorn), etc. are all ways to progress within the champion system even if you have already done silver/gold. My main is a VR14 and I can't wait until 1.6.

If you really believe that trials (which require an organized, balanced and skilled team of 12 people all online at the same time) is equal to 14 vet levels of solo content with huge XP rewards for the story missions is the same..there is little hope for you. Most people don't have the opportunity to access trials for numerous reasons so no it's not equal. Undaunted and Craglorn are also GROUP content so no..it's not an substitute for XP-rich SOLO content. Cyrodiil is PvP which by it's very definition is not PvE content and has historically provided terrible XP gain. Your examples of alternative XP sources = FAIL.

You know they are expanding the amount of xp for that type of content. So his examples of alternative xp sources is not a FAIL.

It doesn't matter if they expand the XP for that type of content..it's not the same type of content and not everyone has the ability/opportunity to run vet dungeons or do trials. Many people hate PvP. Sorry, it's still FAIL.

The only thing they could do is add an equivalent amount of new PvE story content (like would happen in an actual expansion) but even then..people not getting credit for silver/gold would be at a disadvantage because newer players would have access to silver/gold and the new content which equals vastly more CP opportunity for some people. FAIL.

I can easily gain xp just as quickly anyway just by playing the way I have been playing. Every since the xp change, I have been gaining xp much faster just by killing various creatures while exploring. Its a whole lot better than it was at launch. I do not need quests anymore.If quests were the only way you can get meaningful xp than you have to wait until Wrothgar or do an alt. I have been playing for awhile and their is plenty of people who started behind me and are probably are vet 14 with many vet 14 characters and are the ones complaining about this debacle of them being at a disadvantage because they have finished this content already.

It does not matter if some new player get ahead of me. There are plenty of new players ahead of me now plus plenty of people who started before me that are ahead of me. You will always be disadvantage regardless of how much time you put in the game. If your not playing the game for fun then you always FAIL every time you play this game. I have no sympathy for people who are still playing victim to this.

phairdon · January 2015

No concern either way. What can make veteran levels a grind for me, is the fact you're repeating the same quests as you do in the level 4-50 zones. The veteran levels needed their own zones. Perhaps this may have prevented the coming change to the champion system.

knightblaster · January 2015

Goresnort wrote: »

ESO is quite unique on the western MMO market in regards to how much solo content you have to plough through, in the initial release version, before the game 'opens up'

A lot of players just flipped the finger to playing the other factions, and even though they enjoyed their first faction, they went from finishing Molag Bal and had to carry out a horrendous lengthy repetitive xp grind to fill the VR gap.

It is nice that we have the option to play the other factions content, but we should not be forced into it, and it should not be obligatory to get the xp equivalent of two more factions before we can compete in pvp or go vet group/trial content.

This is, indeed, the underlying problem. Effectively, the game was encouraging you to play through all three quest contents in order to be maxed (which is, what ... 400 hours of play?). That's both an extreme amount for the current market expectation of "how long it takes until I get to play the endgame?" ... heck even completing the main quest to 50 is far longer than par for the Western MMO industry ... and a big disincentive for many players to play alts, even of other factions. It was an odd design from the beginning.

I don't see how this change is going to fix that problem, however. New 50s are still going to be grinding through silver and gold to collect their CPs, and are going to be way behind people who have their CPs collected already. It's a problem inherent in any substantial vertical progression system, but it can be exacerbated, or alleviated, depending on the time it takes to complete. But it seems clear that the wrong way to do it is to press down on the top -- i.e., to make it harder for those who have an initial advantage (current VR14s) to continue apace, thereby making it easier for others to catch them. Far better to speed up the people who are trying to catch them than it is to slow down the people who are trying to be caught, which is what this change effectively does because of the fewer sources of XP available to them.

PBpsy · January 2015

knightblaster wrote: »

This is, indeed, the underlying problem. Effectively, the game was encouraging you to play through all three quest contents in order to be maxed (which is, what ... 400 hours of play?). That's both an extreme amount for the current market expectation of "how long it takes until I get to play the endgame?" ... heck even completing the main quest to 50 is far longer than par for the Western MMO industry ... and a big disincentive for many players to play alts, even of other factions. It was an odd design from the beginning.

Someone who takes 400 hours to max out a character must be playing a very very special game. On my main I took less than 200 hours to level to V10 before all the nerfs. I was doing all quests, listening to all dialogue(with no text addon) and didn't have0 a Skyshard/lore/location addon.. The other 4 ranks were be done in another 20-30 h with efficient mix of pvp quest, crag delves and grinding, My second character was at VR 14 in less than 100 h with 7 VR quest zones done a few rounds of Cyro quests and 8-10 hours of grinding. For a 400h playtrough one would need to do a whole lot of fishing, RP and lorebook reading.

If one's goal is to level 4-6 hours per zone is the most you need. getting to VR 14 was fast for anyone who knew how or wanted to level efficiently and wanted alts. I think 100h to lvl cap was manageable even for a 3 h/night type of player.

The problem was not at all slow progression, it was player laziness and the "I want it now, I want it only my way,Everything that is not my way is the wrong way and is cheating, I refuse to do that /stompfeet " mentality. This was what ZOS is trying to cater to and in many ways it is what has ruined many aspects of the game.

AlexDougherty · January 2015

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

1. You hit VR1 and can go to Cyrodill to level up to VR14 which is fine so long as you don't want to survive any fight with VR14 at all ever and be frustrated while you level. That will be frustrating

I hate to break this to you, but the change in the system is still going to leave you outlevelled. The Champion points are spent on upgrading your character, so anyone who has put the time in will outclass you to the same degree.

The only difference is you won't know what level they are now, so you won't be able to say they are all VR14 in PVP.

AlexDougherty · January 2015

phairdon wrote: »

No concern either way. What can make veteran levels a grind for me, is the fact you're repeating the same quests as you do in the level 4-50 zones. The veteran levels needed their own zones. Perhaps this may have prevented the coming change to the champion system.

Different stories would have helped, but the Champion system is still going to be a grind. It's just that it's going to be similar to spending skill points rather than getting attribute points.

Presumably the Gear will be tied into how many Champion points you have (because they want you to keep earning and crafting gear, otherwise people will sit around complaining about there being nothing to do), which means the gear will be tiered like we have now.

All that's going to change is we have fewer attribute points to earn, which we only have because they introduced them to VR levels a few months ago, and it will be harder to tell what level someone is (because the Champion system is al level 50).

TheBull · January 2015

I want them removed because as a pvpr the grind to v14 takes far too much time doing something I do not want to do.

Each hour grinding levels in pve land is an hour my main and I are not in Cyrodiil. It's enough to drive players away.

Bouvin · January 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

Did ZOS post that the removal of VR will set the level cap for the entire lifespan of the game to 50? The removal of VR simply makes repeating two other factions worth of content irrelevant for beginning endgame - for the time being.

Not really, because the questing will be the fastest way to gain CP.

Bouvin · January 2015

My biggest question is how will Caldwell's Silver & Gold areas scale? Right now when you hit Silver, the VR1 mobs are way tougher than the lvl 50 mobs, even if you're VR1. Same happens when you hit the VR6 zone, it's a big jump in difficulty.

After VR is removed, will everything be as easy as lvl 50? If so, Zone bosses and Group Delves won't offer much challenge, even for soloers.

AlexDougherty · January 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

My biggest question is how will Caldwell's Silver & Gold areas scale? Right now when you hit Silver, the VR1 mobs are way tougher than the lvl 50 mobs, even if you're VR1. Same happens when you hit the VR6 zone, it's a big jump in difficulty.

After VR is removed, will everything be as easy as lvl 50? If so, Zone bosses and Group Delves won't offer much challenge, even for soloers.

We don't know, at the minute and for a couple of months the VR levels will stay in, but when they go, who knows how they will scale.

They will have to scale somehow though, because that's the point of the Champion Points, they make your character stronger.

Stroggnonimus · January 2015

I have 2 vr14 and 1 vr12 character ( all leveled up by questing ) and I dont have a slightlest idea why people hate veteran so much. It's the same *** levels ! just instead of getting 8 you get 1 lvl per area. I think people just dont like working to get their levels and thats it. Everything is okay with veteran system, it's just lazy players whinning because they cant get 4 levels a day. Btw its possible to do a whole zone in 1-2 days, so 2 weeks to get to get vr12-14 isnt a big deal.

Averya_Teira · January 2015

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

My biggest question is how will Caldwell's Silver & Gold areas scale? Right now when you hit Silver, the VR1 mobs are way tougher than the lvl 50 mobs, even if you're VR1. Same happens when you hit the VR6 zone, it's a big jump in difficulty.

After VR is removed, will everything be as easy as lvl 50? If so, Zone bosses and Group Delves won't offer much challenge, even for soloers.

We don't know, at the minute and for a couple of months the VR levels will stay in, but when they go, who knows how they will scale.

They will have to scale somehow though, because that's the point of the Champion Points, they make your character stronger.

I don't think zones will scale, the champion system is made so the more points you have, the less increase you get. Even if you have 1000 CP and your character is 17% more powerful, then zones will just be 17% easier...

AlexDougherty · January 2015

Averya_Teira wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

My biggest question is how will Caldwell's Silver & Gold areas scale? Right now when you hit Silver, the VR1 mobs are way tougher than the lvl 50 mobs, even if you're VR1. Same happens when you hit the VR6 zone, it's a big jump in difficulty.

After VR is removed, will everything be as easy as lvl 50? If so, Zone bosses and Group Delves won't offer much challenge, even for soloers.

We don't know, at the minute and for a couple of months the VR levels will stay in, but when they go, who knows how they will scale.

They will have to scale somehow though, because that's the point of the Champion Points, they make your character stronger.

I don't think zones will scale, the champion system is made so the more points you have, the less increase you get. Even if you have 1000 CP and your character is 17% more powerful, then zones will just be 17% easier...

Maybe, but the whole point of levels scaling is so that doesn't happen, so you are always being challenged.

And 17% more powerful makes the zones more than 17% easier, a mere 5% increase in damage done to mobs makes it about 20% easier (from a personal viewpoint not a mathematical one). Most of the challenge from mobs is that another two or three join in before you finish the four/five you were fighting, a slight increase and they join in just afterwards, which is a huge difference.

Which is why I think they will have to have scaling.

Minack · January 2015

Stroggnonimus wrote: »

I have 2 vr14 and 1 vr12 character ( all leveled up by questing ) and I dont have a slightlest idea why people hate veteran so much. It's the same *** levels ! just instead of getting 8 you get 1 lvl per area. I think people just dont like working to get their levels and thats it. Everything is okay with veteran system, it's just lazy players whinning because they cant get 4 levels a day. Btw its possible to do a whole zone in 1-2 days, so 2 weeks to get to get vr12-14 isnt a big deal.

Right, everything is okay with the VR system.

NY is over now, you can stop drinking.

technohic · January 2015

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Everyone I know who left the game left because of Vet Ranks. They all finished the main story after a month or two, enjoyed it very much, decided to jump into endgame and ... realized they had another 2 or 3 months of questing/grinding/PvP/etc., before they hit the real level cap.

I did not mind the Veteran Ranks. It took me almost 9 months to get to VR14. I was in no hurry. Did not really care if I was not maxed out. There always seemed to be plenty to do, both solo and grouped, even when I was at VR4 or VR7 or some other non-max level.

But for a lot of people, getting to that max level is a huge deal. They feel that when two max level players face off in PvP or on a leaderboard, the difference is skill. Whereas when you are not max level, they feel that they may be just as skilled a player, maybe even more skilled, but that is obscured by the stat gap between them and max level.

So you have a difficult balancing act. You want to make sure that a guy who just subscribed today, no matter how skilled he is, cannot just waltz into Cyrodiil and crown himself emperor 5 minutes after creating his character. But you don't want such a long road to endgame that people get discouraged and quit (which I saw a lot of among my real life friends).

From my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, the VR experience skewed too far to the "takes too long" side of the above paragraph. The hope is that the Level 50 max + Champion Point system will find a happy medium between "too easy to reach endgame" and "too long to reach endgame".

Time will tell if they get it right.

This is pretty much the problem with VR from players perspective, but I don't think they needed to get rid of it; nor did I think they needed to make the enemies easier, either. All they needed to do was make progression through the levels faster by more progress on the bar, not easier enemies. And they needed to make it to where you could do it how you wanted without being forced to do silver and gold or grind Craglorn to do so.

For whatever reason, it was ZOS that decided they need to remove it entirely and go to the champion system. Not sure why, but I do like the idea of champion points; just not sure they have to get rid of VR in order to do so. Just speed up progress and allow people to do what they want with that quicker progress post 50.

EDIT: And stop adding VR levels every other patch.

LonePirate · January 2015

technohic wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Everyone I know who left the game left because of Vet Ranks. They all finished the main story after a month or two, enjoyed it very much, decided to jump into endgame and ... realized they had another 2 or 3 months of questing/grinding/PvP/etc., before they hit the real level cap.

I did not mind the Veteran Ranks. It took me almost 9 months to get to VR14. I was in no hurry. Did not really care if I was not maxed out. There always seemed to be plenty to do, both solo and grouped, even when I was at VR4 or VR7 or some other non-max level.

But for a lot of people, getting to that max level is a huge deal. They feel that when two max level players face off in PvP or on a leaderboard, the difference is skill. Whereas when you are not max level, they feel that they may be just as skilled a player, maybe even more skilled, but that is obscured by the stat gap between them and max level.

So you have a difficult balancing act. You want to make sure that a guy who just subscribed today, no matter how skilled he is, cannot just waltz into Cyrodiil and crown himself emperor 5 minutes after creating his character. But you don't want such a long road to endgame that people get discouraged and quit (which I saw a lot of among my real life friends).

From my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, the VR experience skewed too far to the "takes too long" side of the above paragraph. The hope is that the Level 50 max + Champion Point system will find a happy medium between "too easy to reach endgame" and "too long to reach endgame".

Time will tell if they get it right.

This is pretty much the problem with VR from players perspective, but I don't think they needed to get rid of it; nor did I think they needed to make the enemies easier, either. All they needed to do was make progression through the levels faster by more progress on the bar, not easier enemies. And they needed to make it to where you could do it how you wanted without being forced to do silver and gold or grind Craglorn to do so.

For whatever reason, it was ZOS that decided they need to remove it entirely and go to the champion system. Not sure why, but I do like the idea of champion points; just not sure they have to get rid of VR in order to do so. Just speed up progress and allow people to do what they want with that quicker progress post 50.

EDIT: And stop adding VR levels every other patch.

Calm down on the exaggeration. The game released with VR10. Update 1 increased that to VR12. Update 2 did not increase it. Update 3 did not increase it. Update 4 increased it to VR14. Update 5 did not increase it. Update 6 is not going to increase it. Not only that but VR levels are easier to obtain now than ever before.

It may seem daunting if you only play a few hours a week; however VR14 is easily obtainable. Besides, why should the game cater only to the slowest leveling players?

technohic · January 2015

LonePirate wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Everyone I know who left the game left because of Vet Ranks. They all finished the main story after a month or two, enjoyed it very much, decided to jump into endgame and ... realized they had another 2 or 3 months of questing/grinding/PvP/etc., before they hit the real level cap.

I did not mind the Veteran Ranks. It took me almost 9 months to get to VR14. I was in no hurry. Did not really care if I was not maxed out. There always seemed to be plenty to do, both solo and grouped, even when I was at VR4 or VR7 or some other non-max level.

But for a lot of people, getting to that max level is a huge deal. They feel that when two max level players face off in PvP or on a leaderboard, the difference is skill. Whereas when you are not max level, they feel that they may be just as skilled a player, maybe even more skilled, but that is obscured by the stat gap between them and max level.

So you have a difficult balancing act. You want to make sure that a guy who just subscribed today, no matter how skilled he is, cannot just waltz into Cyrodiil and crown himself emperor 5 minutes after creating his character. But you don't want such a long road to endgame that people get discouraged and quit (which I saw a lot of among my real life friends).

From my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, the VR experience skewed too far to the "takes too long" side of the above paragraph. The hope is that the Level 50 max + Champion Point system will find a happy medium between "too easy to reach endgame" and "too long to reach endgame".

Time will tell if they get it right.

This is pretty much the problem with VR from players perspective, but I don't think they needed to get rid of it; nor did I think they needed to make the enemies easier, either. All they needed to do was make progression through the levels faster by more progress on the bar, not easier enemies. And they needed to make it to where you could do it how you wanted without being forced to do silver and gold or grind Craglorn to do so.

For whatever reason, it was ZOS that decided they need to remove it entirely and go to the champion system. Not sure why, but I do like the idea of champion points; just not sure they have to get rid of VR in order to do so. Just speed up progress and allow people to do what they want with that quicker progress post 50.

EDIT: And stop adding VR levels every other patch.

Calm down on the exaggeration. The game released with VR10. Update 1 increased that to VR12. Update 2 did not increase it. Update 3 did not increase it. Update 4 increased it to VR14. Update 5 did not increase it. Update 6 is not going to increase it. Not only that but VR levels are easier to obtain now than ever before.

It may seem daunting if you only play a few hours a week; however VR14 is easily obtainable. Besides, why should the game cater only to the slowest leveling players?

Well; lets see. Do they lose more players for it being faster progression doing what they want to do in game, or by slower progression where they have to do what they don't want to do in game? They want to turn a profit and I am guessing the lose a lot less of the players that can grind for hours by making it quicker than they do the players that cannot by keeping it slow and moving the goal posts on a regular basis.

Was that even a real question?

Elloa · January 2015

Most people didn't like the Veteran rank, cause basically it's 14 more level, that separate players, and spread grouping possibilities.
The Veteran ranks have been added as an artificial way to increase the longevity of the game, but it was not well thoughs and didn't met a lot of enthousiasm.

Most of my friend stopped to play once they reach the veteran ranks cause they didn't enjoyed to be forced into the "other faction" questing with their main character.

The removal of the Veteran ranks and the addition of the Champion system will improve greatly the end game life of the players, and make things more interesting as players once they reach lvl 50 will have tons of activities to choose from instead of being forced into few....